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| Nobody but you is in control of your joy in this life. |
The people of Enid care for their neighbors. Still, they're smart enough to know that academics, scientists, and public health officials are in disagreement over the efficacy of masks, so why mandate a law that everyone must wear a mask and back violations with civil penalties? The entire nation of Sweden has never made lockdown or masks mandatory, and they've flattened the curve far better than the United States.
The chief of police courageously and publicly stated he would not enforce any civil penalties for citizens choosing not to wear a mask. His officers, he said, have more important things to do than to track down a person not wearing a mask and issue a citation of $100 for the first offense and $200 for the second offense.
Enid gets it. We want our leaders to tell citizens the truth and then trust citizens to do the right thing. The truth is, people are going to die from Covid-19, the flu, and other infectious diseases currently unknown to mankind. Educate yourself, take precautions, be considerate of your neighbor, but the idea that a healthy person should cover his mouth with a mask and be tackled by police and fined for not wearing a face mask is absurd. To mask the healthy, according to a flurry of recent scientific reports, doesn't work as a public health policy. Review the pertinent and medical literature for yourself. I heard medical "experts" last night give anecdotes about masks. We don't need anecdotes. I've got plenty that could confirm the other side of the story, but won't bore you with them. Research is done to find the truth.
The research data shows that the sick should isolate, mask and glove up if they must go out, always keeping their social distance, while taking personal responsibility for their illness.Emmanuel Enid, the church I pastor, has a sign on the door that says anyone with a fever, cough, or symptoms of Covid-19 is to stay home and watch online. If they've tested positive and have no symptoms (asymptomatic), we would ask that they wear a mask, keep their distance. We provide masks for those who want or need them, sanitized soap at every entrance, and we disinfect the air and seats after every service. But we don't demand a mask over the mouths of the healthy and trust the sick to be good neighbors and stay away. For your information, that's the same thing we with the flu, Corona colds, and any other infectious diseases. We tell the truth and trust the people.
The word disease means "DIS- ease." If people have their physical ease "DIS -turbed," people should stay home until they are back at ease.
The American people must take responsibility for our lives, including our mental, physical, and emotional health and welfare. We should lose weight, get in shape, stop smoking dope and tobacco, limit our alcohol intake, eat right, work on our relationship with God, and refrain from blaming others for the state of our lives. Sweden gets this policy of personal responsibility and collective herd immunity. When the winter of 2020 dawns, Sweden's professional epidemiologists predict that their country will not have the boomerang nightmare of sick people everywhere (like their European neighbors) because they haven't isolated and masked the healthy.
The Governor of Oklahoma tested positive for Covid-19 this. He is "a little achy," but doing well. He is doing what any sick person should do - he's isolating from family and friends, taking precautions to not infect others, and getting on with his life. Soon, his body will develop antibodies to Covid-19. God made your body the most amazing machine in the universe. Trust Him and yourself, and when your time comes to die, commit your soul to Him.
When those things I predict begin to happen soon, don't blame increased sickness on healthy people not wearing masks. Do your research. Verify the science. Take responsibility. And most of all...
Don't play the blame game and get on with life.
59 comments:
A few things about Sweden and their response that Wade did not mention:
Congregations of 50 or more people were prohibited. Drinks could only be served at seated tables and not bars. Restaurants were mandated to ensure a two-meter distance between tables, and patrons were advised to only sit at their tables and not wander around the restaurant. Universities and high schools were shut and classes were conducted online. All visits to care homes were banned. Pay special attention to the first restriction and ask yourselves just how well that would go over here?
Second, Sweden by large has a much healthier population that the US (for example, they have only 1/3 the percentage of the population that is obese compared to the US).
Third, if Sweden is held as the darling for the public health response in this pandemic, then Wade I guess that means you are OK with the socialist, single-payer health care system they have there and are OK with implementing it here. Unless of course you think their national health care system has absolutely nothing to with their success and the better overall health of the Swedish population as indicated in my second point.
Finally, let us compare Sweden's death rate with its Nordic neighbors (you know apples to apples) and you find that Sweden does quite poorly compared to Finland, Norway, and others. Sweden has more than 10 times as many Covid-19 deaths as in neighboring Norway, per 100,000.
And maybe, just maybe Swedes generally see themselves as part of a community (like the Japanese and others) instead of the me-centered, self-worshiping, self-absorbed Americans who worship the idolatrous God of self to the exclusion of their neighbors.
"according to a flurry of recent scientific reports"
I followed this link. That is extremely informative and helps me understand the mask issue much better. Thanks for including that.
From the link:
"studies that show partial stopping power of masks, or that show that masks can capture many large droplets produced by a sneezing or coughing mask-wearer, in light of the above-described features of the problem, are irrelevant."
This seems counter intuitive to me. But I guess my intuition has little to do with it.
thanks
Paul
Paul,
If you are infected, the purpose of the mask is to help prevent infecting others. This why in places like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan every time there is any disease outbreak EVERYONE wears a a mask (not to protect the mask-wearer, but to protect everyone else). And they do this without any instructions from government. Why? Maybe because they understand due to their culture, they are part of a community (something seems to escape most Americans). It is obvious to them that since no one knows who is infected and is asymptomatic and who is not, they wear a mask on the presumption that they are infected so as to not potentially infect their neighbor. I seem to remembering something similar about loving your neighbor in some book that Christians supposedly follow, or least pretend to follow it when it lines up to their politics at the time.
CM,
honestly, I agreed with you completely until I read the article Wade linked to. I guess I am wavering now.
I did think of something that illustrates your culture and community point. Tulsa made shirts optional from a city ordinance perspective...last year?..recently. But you don't really see people walking around without shirts because it's just not culturally acceptable. I think mask mandates wouldn't be required if they were viewed in the same light.
Of course, if they really don't help...then...I don't know. I guess maybe I'm going to the dark side. Sorry.
thanks
Paul
CM,
We disagree over public assemblies, but thanks for your comment. BTW, Sweden has opened up public assemblies.
If you are infected with symptoms, stay home. If you are infected without symptoms, you're building natural antibodies.
If you do not wish to catch Covid-19 because you are obese, elderly, or have other health conditions that raise the morbidity rate from 0.002 to 1.5% - stay home.
It's...not...hard to figure this out.
Wade,
GOOD POST
Your title: “Don’t Play the Blame Game…” reminds me of Rudyard Kipling’s poem “IF” (You will be a man, my son.)
The first line:
“If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you.”
CM: In response to your first comment, it's the very same thing we are doing here. There is not enough known about this virus. That is what keeps getting said and you continue to ignore. I swear it's more a control issue than a solution even with you.
If they would mandate I wear a mask, I was going to comply although I do not wear one except on rare occasions. I do think that the anger and division this has caused, not respecting other views, is far worse than the disease. It shows what a world without Christ is like. If one doesn't have Christ, it's far harder to think about your dying. For some like me, it's difficult with Christ, but I also have the hope of everlasting life with my Savior.
Another collective look at the mask studies: https://www.primarydoctor.org/masks-not-effect.
My wife had to appeal to our Governor years ago when our last child was trying to graduate from home-schooled HS at 16. Started to take a toll on my wife's health over the years she spent fighting it, but she won in the end. Now she's appealing again on this issue.
A couple of our kids might lose their jobs over it (one graduated from HS at 16 and went on to secure a very high paying job at 19 that required a college degree, but she found favor in management and fellow employees and landed it without one - other job applicants were three times her age and highly educated). But they are principled enough to walk out with convictions and live in a tent/eat acorns the rest of their lives, rather than to blindly comply to keep a job.
Lord have mercy on us all.
Ken
@ Ken
Well, I have to say it is very frustrating to know who is really spreading bologna info. At first, the Rancourt article that Wade linked to seemed very impressive, but maybe it’s not as good as I first thought:
“of the eight studies Rancourt cites, none of them provides any evidence to support his claim that masks do not work in reducing the spread of viruses, and several of them provide evidence that they do. And all that happens just in the first section of his article.”
I suspect the primarydoctor.org link you provided is much of the same - comparing N95 vs. surgical mask, or picking quotes out of context to support the exact opposite of what the studies actually say.
On one hand I sympathize with the dissenters that see conspiracy and corruption behind every stone, but when you see all the stuff these dissenters are involved in you kinda get the feeling they’re just looking for a unique way to make a buck.
thanks
Paul
Another thing in this whole mask debate is this:
Is the long-standing debate about the extent to which common respiratory viruses including the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), are transmitted via respiratory droplets vs aerosols.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768396?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=content-shareicons&utm_content=article_engagement&utm_medium=social&utm_term=071420#.Xw3_nI9a_8M.twitter
Answering this question will help determine the extant in which masks are protective.
Hence my earlier posts some computational fluid dynamics, fluid mechanics, and aerosol/particle science research in this arena.
@ Ken
just for kicks I did follow the link to the study reference #1 in the primarydoctor.org article. The conclusion of that study says "recommend use of masks combined with other measures". Interesting.
thanks
Paul
@Ken
reference #2 - "...face masks might be able to reduce transmission of...and have value in an influenza pandemic when healthcare resources are stretched." Interesting.
thanks
Paul
Ken,
You said, “one of your kids graduated at 16…” reminds me of one of my grandchildren. His parents started home schooling their children when they were missionaries in Israel.
Three of them were taking a college class. The teacher asked Joseph, the youngest, a hard question that the other two didn’t know.
Joseph gave the correct answer.
“That’s pretty good for a boy that’s 15.”
“No sir; I’m 13.”
Sweden might not be the best example of a country where everything is left up to personal choice regarding COVID-19 proves that mandating certain practices like mask-wearing doesn't lead to a spike in cases. They are experiencing a similar spike, unlike other European nations, similar to the one in the US in states that didn't mandate or enforce stay-at-home orders early on.
I'm not really keen on wearing a seat belt. It's a violation of my personal freedom and if I don't wear one, it's not hurting anyone else. It has been proven that wearing a seat belt saves the lives of the wearers as much as it has been proven, with research based evidence, that wearing a mask reduces the risk of catching Covid by as much as 90%. But why should there be an ordinance and a civil penalty for not wearing a seat belt?
I should also be able to go ahead and run through a red light if I am in a hurry. That's not safe, but it's a matter of personal freedom.
Paul - there was a free copy of this book on the web, but my bookmarked link says it's been removed. It's a helpful background to what's going on today.
https://www.amazon.com/Virus-Mania-Continually-Epidemics-Billion-Dollar/dp/1425114679/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=virus+mania&qid=1594939100&sr=8-2#customerReviews
Rex - Thumbs up! Don't you have a bunch of great grandchildren now?
RBK- if you're reading this... the grandkid remark you made the other day reminded me to tell you they could make your weeds go bye-bye just like glyphosate does by whizzing on them a couple of times. Most weeds can't tolerate the ammonia in urine. That's what I do around here. You could hand out the best whizzard award to the one that kills the most. Helps with aim too. :)
BTW, I got in trouble in the fifth grade for being the most proficient at backing up while taking a whiz in the restroom. Legendary fame. The boys from the older grades egged me on to keep backing up, so I got all the way outside the stall door one time, but my aim got slightly off and I soaked the toilet paper roll. Principal found out and I got paddled. No awards for me. :)
Ken
Ken,
I have two great grandchildren and another on the way. Your story of holding the record in the rest room reminds me of another rest room story.
But first, you need to know the ‘odd thinking’ of my brother-in-law, Rollie. Once, my sister, Ann, and him were taking a physical. The nurse told Ann to put a robe on, and for Rollie to take his shirt off.
Rollie said, “I can’t do that.”
“Well, why not?”
“My wife gets too excited.”
Rollie was the principal of a school, when a teacher complained to him. She was angry.
“What’s wrong?”
“I heard a lot of giggling in the boy’s restroom. I found they had a contest on how high they could go on the wall!”
“What did you do?”
“I HIT THE CEALING”
“Did you win?”
I am thinking that the 'mask' controversy is covering (sorry for pun) something much deeper and more important than preventing droplets of moisture from landing on our neighbors, isn't it?
It would help if people spoke up about that, if they are aware of it, and if they wanted to help others understand what all the upset is about. People realize that the 'response' to the concept of a mandate-wearing-of-a-mask-to-protect-others is a heart-felt response, but that the frustration behind that response seems 'over-the-top' and inappropriate to how the rest of the country sees the wearing of these masks and their felt-need for everyone to get on the same page in trying to get a handle on the situation that threatens to over-whelm our hospitals, our front-line service people (police, paramedics, nurses, physicians, care-givers in nursing facilities),
so that if a family in a community NEEDS emergency care, they will not have to wait many hours to get that life-saving care.
So what IS the problem underneath the problem? It has been hinted at and some have screamed about it, but our country is seeing the whole 'mask' thing in such different ways that any dialogue about what is really at stake here would be valuable. Something more than wearing a mask after being told it is required (mandated) is driving the revolt. But it is kept 'covered' and is either not able to be clearly revealed OR is being kept in 'code' for them what choose not to talk about the deeper frustrations find to be more comfortable at this time for themselves.
What is known?
the virus is very contagious, care-givers are being overwhelmed, some facilities are already maxed-out, lines of cars line up every day for many hours to get a test that won't come back in time from testing labs with reports that can be timely to use for intervention and for tracking purposes . . . there are visible, unchallenged problems
'denial' hasn't worked
what will work going forward that is also going to 'make sense' to all of our American people? Wade is right that 'blaming' doesn't help. I'm as guilty as the next one there, being fearful and frustrated at the lack of progress,
and I KNOW that blaming isn't going to fix the problems WE are facing.
but what will?
@ Ken
I want you to know that I so badly want to go down the rabbit hole with you and I really do appreciate your thoughts because there is a significant part of me that really wants to think the way you think. I homeschooled my older kids too - didn't work out for me as good as it did for you. My younger kids are doing great in public school though.
To be consistent with what I know of your worldview, interpreting the world (be it scientific studies or main stream media reports) requires a secret decoder ring Illuminati filter eye glasses. Until you have this special filter, you cannot really know the truth.
My main question for you is: to be consistent in your worldview, is this same filter required for interpreting the Bible and practicing your faith?
The book you referenced is sold at Walmart if you need another copy. What makes you think every snake oil salesman is selling a real cure?
If those questions sound rude consider the fact that I am asking the same questions of myself. There's a big part of me that thinks that maybe you are right and I'm being fooled by the Illuminati. But, at least in my mind, an Orthodox interpretation of the Bible would go the same way as an "orthodox" view of the world.
Also, I got in trouble for the exact same stunt in school. I narrowly escaped a paddling but did have to do some cleaning.
thanks
Paul
Was it Leviticus where the sick were quarantined outside of the camp, not the healthy? I was a little disappointed at the City mask meeting that we didn’t hear from a Dr. giving information on who should quarantine & how herd immunity works.
Wade,
I don’t think I ever told you the story of how my brother, Hez Ray, learned the story of “When is my Daddy coming Home?” as told by our father, Dave Ray.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dipper_Ice_Arena
“Prior to 1968, the building now known as the Big Dipper was an aircraft hangar located in Tanacross, Alaska. Constructed during World War II, the building saw little use after the war.
In 1968, Hez Ray, a teacher and coach at Lathrop High School, organized a crew of high school students and volunteers and undertook a project to move the derelict hangar to Fairbanks and repurpose it as an ice skating arena. Coach Ray's initial group of boys were “First Boots on the Ground” in the beginning of the enormous project. The incredible story of this adventure is in Coach Ray's book “The Big Dipper, A Dream is Born”.
Wade, Indians had used this hangar for many years, and resented it being taken away. When they started steeling, Hez got our father to be a ‘night-watchman’. (He didn’t need a gun because his voice could wake the dead.)
Trucks were loaded and ready to start to Fairbanks when Hez noticed their many bedrolls were on fire. He and Daddy ran to put the fire out, but as they arrived, bullets started exploding. (Indians had scattered bullets over the bedrolls they had set on fire.)
They dove behind a concrete wall that was three feet high. Daddy started laughing.
“What are you laughing about?”
“This is just like world war two.”
During that time was when Daddy told Hez the story.
Hez was confused before he died with from the flu. I asked did he know how old we’d be on our next birthday.
“No”
“If you stand 8 and 8 side by side that’s how old we’re going to be.”
“You mean we’re going to be 16?”
He lived seven days past March 10.
Rex - do you have these stories written down so that you basically paste and copy them here, or are they merely stored in your memory? Highly impressive if the latter.
My principal used the time to preach Rom 3:23 at me and said that I sinned and missed the mark. :)
Paul, my perspective comes from:
1) getting seriously ill in the 1990's (I lost 8 months of work in the first year) and going through the medical system with the best small business insurance one could have. I paid an out of pocket fortune over the years when I began to see how tremendously indoctrinated and corrupt ($$$$$) the allopathic medical system is (John Hopkins included) - insurance would not cover much of my treatment that I pursued (wife was an insurance agent before the homeschooling...she can tell you mind boggling stories about insurance corruption).
USA, inc excels on emergency medical treatment, but terrible on infectious "diseases" (research the history of how the oil tycoons like Rockefeller and Carnegie hijacked the germ theory and corrupted it). Went through 14 different docs...yada yada yada. My story got printed in an international magazine so I have met/spoken with myriads of people over the past couple of decades who were in the same boat as I was. Two of my children have had serious health issues as well. The system is monstrously corrupted by money and power.
2)living and working in the land of the FED GOV since the 1960's. Probably the majority of my customers and neighbors over the past thirty some years worked for all different departments of the FED in some capacity - some very high. Most Americans are clueless as to how the systems really work. I know some good people that work in these systems who are extremely naive/blinded - GOV is very compartmentalized (on purpose) so often times the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. They don't want wrestle with the big picture because it might jeopardize their big money job and pension.
Got to run for now. Ken
Daneille,
Yes. Leviticus.
The REASON a doctor in America will not speak on "herd immunity" is because he or she feels it would be a violation of the Hippocratic Oath.
To advocate herd immunity means you realize tens of thousands MORE people are going to die by the time everyone develops natural antibodies to Covid-19. The medical community, rightly so, wishes to save EVERY life, but they don't get that suicides, heart attacks, cancers, and a host of other diseases will INCREASE because of the undue and over-inflated desire to save EVERY LIFE from Covid-19.
I call their flawed logic "myopic public health" vision. The doctors get used to people dying from diseases that are old, but get myopic to prevent deaths from infectious diseases that are new.
Here's the harsh truth.
People die every day.
You can't save every person from dying.
Public health is benefited by a healthy diet, exercise, abstaining from drugs and the misuse of alcohol, and a healthy emotional and mental state built on a spiritual relationship with God.
America strikes out on all five things above.
But we can darn sure mask the healthy - which is contrary to logic, and long-term health.
:)
Done with today's rant.
Ken,
I have a lot of stories written, including “When is my Daddy coming home” (I’ve passed out close to a thousand) but not a story on how my brother heard it.
It took 10 pages for him to tell the story. (He chased a lot of rabbits and lectured Hitler.) My sister and daughter cut the story to 5 pages, and I cut it to 2 pages. It has a full-size picture of our father and a half size picture of the 5-year-old girl.
I knew Hez named the aircraft hangar, “Big Dipper”, but I didn’t know Wikipedia had the story about my brother, and even a book he wrote. (Some of his book proves truth is stranger than fiction.)
the old, the sick, the disabled
thoughts from Martin Niemoeller, a German Lutheran pastor:
"... the people who were put in the camps then were Communists. Who cared about them? We knew it, it was printed in the newspapers. Who raised their voice, maybe the Confessing Church? We thought: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians—"should I be my brother's keeper?"
Then they got rid of the sick, the so-called incurables. I remember a conversation I had with a person who claimed to be a Christian. He said: Perhaps it's right, these incurably sick people just cost the state money, they are just a burden to themselves and to others. Isn't it best for all concerned if they are taken out of the middle [of society]? Only then did the church as such take note.
Then we started talking, until our voices were again silenced in public.. . . "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_...
I must speak for those who are sick and vulnerable. There is some thought in our Christianity that when we help those who are ill and we comfort them and nourish them and pray over them and give them medicine and treatment for their healing or to quell their pain;
that IN THE PROCESS OF HELPING THEM,
something wounded in our own selves in healed.
I believe that there is truth to this. And I believe that this truth is deeply connected to our faith, in some way tied to who we are as human persons, as we were meant to be, before the fall in Eden,
as the kind of human person we could have been which is shown to us in the Person of Jesus Christ, true God and true Man. He showed us what it was to be truly humane and taught us to care about 'our neighbor' as we would for ourselves.
All I know is that if we don't help those who suffer, especially the innocent, we betray something in ourselves that was meant to be, something that is holy to God. We become less human when we turn our backs on the sick and the dying. It is a holy thing to care for the sick and to ease their suffering. Were we not taught this by Our Lord Himself?
For anyone who hasn’t hear: the story of: WHEN IS My DADDY COMING HOME? By twins, Hez and Rex Ray
Our father, Dave Ray, was in World War I, and felt called to be a Chaplin in World War II. The head guy in Washington turned him down because of his age. Dave was friends with Sam Rayburn (speaker of the House), so he appealed to him. Rayburn said: “Go back tomorrow and if he doesn’t accept you, we’ll give him the ‘Axe’.” The next day he was in the Army in five minutes. He was in Patton’s 4th Armored Division that landed three days after D-day. He took on anyone in wrestling and never lost. He stayed on the front until the war ended. His medals, including two Bronze Stars, (actions during combat) showed he was accustomed to going beyond the call of duty.
When the war ended, the 4th was stationed at Rothenberg. As the days passed, he and others made friends by playing soccer with children. It wasn’t long before the people and soldiers became friends. One little girl about five was especially drawn to him. Her smiling face, blond hair, and good cheer made Monika Beyer everyone’s friend. She was the youngest of several children in her family. Nearly every day she troubled Dave by asking, “When is my daddy coming home?”
Her father, John Beyer, was the town’s best doctor. In 1942, he was in the battle at Stalingrad which started the end for Hitler. Germans had 85% casualties of a million men. 90,000 were captured, and because of food shortage and harsh treatment only 5,000 survived. The chance of her father being alive wasn’t good.
He always answered Monika’s question: “Your daddy is coming home real soon. You will see him in the big meadow by the oak tree with the rope swing. He will be calling your name.” Her face would light up and she kept telling her family Chaplain Ray’s good news. It wasn’t long until Monika’s mother, Helen Beyer, spoke to him. “I’ve accepted my husband’s death. All my children with the exception of Monika have also. I must ask you, Chaplain, never again say her father is coming home. You’re going to break my little girl’s heart!”
Dave told her about his brother being reported killed in World War I. His mother had eight young children when her husband died and she remained a widow 38 years. She believed God would save her son. After the war, he was in the barn’s hay loft and saw a man walking on the road to their house. His brother was coming home. The army lost track of him when he was hospitalized from Mustard gas.
With tears down her face, Helen asked, “Oh Chaplain Ray, what am I to do? I’ve never heard a single word from my husband in three years. If he were alive, he would move heaven and earth to find us. I remain here, alone, and without hope.”
“If he’s alive, I’ll find your husband.”
Her tears began anew, “I don’t think I can do this. The children will be torn apart, our hopes dashed once more.” Catching her hands, he prayed.
“But where will you go? If my husband can’t find us, and he knows where to look, how can you possibly find him?
“I’ll search the four sectors of prisoners that Allies have in Berlin.” “Before you go, I want you to have something.” She returned with a picture of her husband and a lock of hair. “The last night we said our goodbyes our baby was asleep. This is some of her hair and my husband said he would carry the other always. If you find a man that claims to be my husband, ask him for Monika’s hair. The children and I will pray for you every day.”
His jeep engine was new. An 88 shell had missed him by inches and destroyed the old one. It was 340 miles to Berlin. He searched the Russian, French, British, and American prison camps with millions of POWs in large open fields with barbwire without success. The American camp was last and as he was driving away disappointed, he heard a GI yell, “Wait!”
A GI was running after him. He asked if he wanted a ride. “No Sir, but I may know something. I overheard your story to the Captain. I have a friend in the British Sector that knows about a German surgeon that’s extremely talented. He doesn’t know his name but the British kidnapped him from the Russians to save a British soldier near death. Since then, they’ve kept him hid.”
Returning to the British prison camp with renewed hope, he told the guard he had orders to find Dr. John Beyer. He retraced his steps with an interpreter, but no luck. “What’s that small building way over there?”
“That’s a destroyed jail. It’s deserted and is going to be torn down.”
“Let’s take a look anyway.”
One undamaged cell had four men on their knees. They looked like they were gambling, but they were praying. None looked like the picture, but the interpreter hoped they might know something. “The American Chaplain is looking for Dr. John Beyer. He has good news. Do you know where he can be found?”
Slowly, a tall man stood and spoke in perfect English. “I’m John Beyer. My family and village are lost. I’ve been a prisoner three years. What possible good news could an American have for me?”
“You’re too old for me to believe you unless you can match this lock of hair.”
Producing a lock of hair, he grabbed Dave through the bars. “Does my family live?”
Loud praises to God drowned his reply because his smile was their answer. Hearing there were God’s orders to take him home, their praises were so contagious everyone started shouting.
The British Commander said Dr. Beyer was needed and denied his release, but they could talk more after lunch. “You go ahead. I’m going to stay here and pray.”
“If that’s the way you feel, you can take him home.”
Our father was always a fast driver and had many wrecks. He slowed down when Dr. Beyer said, “I don’t think God saved me from prison to die in a jeep wreck.”
At Rothenberg, they stopped at the meadow. “We’ll talk again, but your daughter comes here ever afternoon to see if this will be the day her daddy comes home,”
Not trusting himself to speak, Dr. Beyer shook hands and turned toward the meadow where a little girl was swinging. He ran towards the big oak. “Monika! Monika! I’m your daddy!” There was fantastic joy when he arrived home with Monika on his shoulders.
German prisoners were not allowed to return home, but were used as forced labor to repair war damage in Russia, France, and England. Two years after the war, one million had died, and four million were still prisoners. But at Rothenberg, the town had a large celebration for their doctor where Monika’s mother said, “I’m going to kiss the Chaplain”, and her husband said, “If you don’t, I am!”
I’ll add a little more: A couple of years after the war, our parents went to German to teach military children. We met Monika Beyer’s family. We didn’t know why they were so glad to see our father, and he didn’t explain until he told the story to my brother when they were ‘hiding’ from bullets.
Sorry to interrupt this thread, but 2 giants in their own fields passed away yesterday:
1) J.I. Packer
2) Congressman John Lewis
More docs speaking out where this covid-1984 is heading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=PbJq2KfgOEs&app=desktop
Paul, there is no secret decoder ring - just a need to seriously question literally everything you're being told by those in authority.
Aids and measle viruses have never been adequately isolated to prove they **cause** illness, but billions have been profited on mere theories of both. Covid-1984 is no different. Fauci should've been tried for treason decades ago. The mainstream medical community is quickly losing respect.
https://healthimpactnews.com/2017/german-federal-supreme-court-upholds-biologists-claim-that-measles-virus-does-not-exist/
Have you ever heard of Maj Gen Smedley Butler - the most decorated marine of his time? He wrote "War is a Racket". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26O-2SVcrw0 He admitted at the end of his life he was a pawn used by the GOV and the big corps.
If every American was made to listen to him in school, then I believe no one with a conscience would want to join the military, or be easily deceived to believe the lies our GOV has told us about 9/11, or the Oklahoma City Bombing, etc..
Ken
Our military is an honorable organization. My father, my brother-in-law, my son, my nephew, my niece, my late husband are/were all honorable people. My cousin Jack, who died in Viet Nam was a good kid, he died so young. Ken, these people serve/served so that you might be able to have free speech to criticize your government. I also support your freedom to speak although I may disagree with you frequently.
Ken, what do you know about the Oklahoma City Bombing that involves 'lies' told to us by the government?
CHRISTIANE,
I believe Ken thinks bombs were inside the building, McVey was a pasty like Oswald, and our government (Bill Clinton) had a hand in it.
I believe he needs to be told like my father told me one time: “Rex, you’re always right, but when you’re wrong, you’re dead wrong!”
CHRISTIANE,
When a crime is done, there is usually a motive. Oswald had no motive to kill JFK, whereas the link below shows Timothy McVeigh with others watching from 3 miles away what our government did at Waco. It also mentions his concern what our government did at Ruby Ridge.
What McVeigh did to the Federal Building at Oklahoma City was ‘PAYBACK’.
https://www.pbs.org/video/american-experience-mcveigh-waco/
McVeigh was caught by a policeman finding explosives after he stopped him because the explosion had blown off his license plate. (If McVeigh had parked farther away, he never would have been caught and executed.)
Thanks, REX RAY
and 'wow', that's stuff even I didn't know about McVeigh's parking too close.
I am left to wonder what SOURCES Ken might have used to come up with what he is claiming.
These days, 'sources', when identified, often 'explain' the agendas of those behind those sources,
so it is beneficial to know where people get their info from in order to sort out what they are seeing as meaningful
I remembered that Wade was recognized for helping after the tragedy in Oklahoma City. That was something very special indeed. Poor people who lost their children, I remember the pictures that were heart-breaking. So much sadness. People do things that are destructive, but often it's the most innocent and vulnerable who pay the price in this world.
Christiane - again, did you listen to the link I posted regarding Butler? Seems you did not.
"I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it.
I helped make Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912. 1 brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."
General Smedley Butler, 1933
Nothing has changed with our military - but it has gotten far worse. How? With the war on drugs, war on terror, war on viruses, etc. The FED, the states, the medical industry, the corporations, the banks have found so many ways to make themselves more powerful and rich, while the people get thrown further into slavery. John Hopkins was the largest employer in my state at one time, might still be. They have so much power over our health it's unbelievable. Covid-19 is just another business transaction on so many levels.
Good people are often part of evil systems. Both in GOV and in the church. But the systems usually win in the end - rarely are they ever transformed.
Ken
Ken, Ken,
I’ve respected much of what you’ve written in the past. But you said, “Nothing is changed with our military – but it has gotten far worse. How? With the war on drugs, war on terror, war on viruses, etc.”
WHAT? Our military has NOTHING to do with those!
How much do you believe what you’ve saying?
McVeigh built up a hate for the Federal Government. You sound like you’re building a hate for our military, banks, and the medical industry.
Or is this only an attempt to change the subject of you being wrong in thinking McVeigh was a pasty?
Rex - Sorry. I wish I was more edumacated in my ability to communicate like you and Christiane are. Lack of time, health affecting my cognitive skills in retention and recall many years ago (you should see me in conversation...pretty bad some days with stopping in mid sentence trying to recall the right stooopid word - takes forever and my dear wife is routinely patient :) ), and not wanting to use up our minutes on the hotspot as I need them for more important things.
So I did lump everything together in that statement, but the military since Butler's career days has been used non-stop by those behind the scenes to secure their wealth and prosperity with lie upon lie. Could spend a lot of time on this subject, but can't. Most people's upbringing and conditioning (school/church/TV/movies etc.) causes them to reject researching history from viewpoints that are not consistent with their own - so they won't read links I post.
Look how many bombs Obama and Trump have dropped in the middle east since 2018:
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trumps-military-drops-a-bomb-every-12-minutes-and-no-one-is-talking-about-it/
If you tallied up the number of people killed per bomb you'd be shocked at how many people died, but they don't give you those figures so we can enjoy our 4th of July parties. Insanity!
I'm not going to discuss OK City and McVeigh as I mentioned before when we were discussing this in a little more detail a lot of info that was available a decade ago is very difficult to find - thanks to Google's heavy censorship. Duck Duck Go is getting worse too. Can't spend the time right now.
Ken
Ken,
Your link:
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/trumps-military-drops-a-bomb-every-12-minutes-and-no-one-is-talking-about-it/
This link states it’s written by: “Lee Camp is an American stand-up comedian, writer, actor and activist. Camp is the host of the weekly comedy news...”
Ken, you should think twice before you believe this guy who said: “It’s not about Bush, even though he has the intelligence of boiled cabbage.”
Camp uses the philosophy of Hitler: “Tell a lie big enough and often enough and people will believe it” Camp said, “Trump drops a bomb every 12 minutes” killing goats and children’.
The link below states Trump use a drone to kill a terrorist that had killed many Americans.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/06/world/middleeast/terror-yemen-drone-attack.html
Does Camp think his using ‘dirty language’ will make people think he’s telling the truth?
Meanwhile, ‘back at the ranch’, your saying, “I’m not going to discuss OK city and McVeigh” reminds me of Bob Cleveland’s statement: “It’s the bit dog that hollers.”
I believe it takes a ‘Big Man’ to admit he’s wrong.
Ken,
You may be right about lies our Government has told us about 9/11.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1175375/9-11-world-trade-center-twin-towers-September-11-conspiracy-theories
“Robert Korol, a civil engineering professor and joint author of the Architects & Engineers for 9/11 claims the destruction of the towers was caused by “controlled demolition”.
Korol said: “I couldn’t understand how those buildings collapsed. It didn’t make sense. The only collapsing such buildings completely has been by way of a procedure known as controlled demolition, whereby explosives or other devices are used to bring down a structure intentionally.
The fires would have not been strong enough to burn through the steel structures. The fires were on the upper floors, there’s little chance the heat would have spread down and caused the steel columns, or the connectors or floor beams, to sufficiently weaken and collapse in the twin towers. Also, they were treated with a fire retardant which would have insulated them.”
Rex Rey,
Robert Korol should have consulted his materials science and metallurgy colleagues and they could explain to him the concept of high temperature creep. At high temperatures (such the temperatures of burning jet fuel and burning offices and all their materials) the strength of the structural steel would have been reduced by 50% or more. One does not need to burn through or melt the steel to cause it to fail. The creep would have weakened the steel to cause failure. This is Mechanical Metallurgy 101. Here is the textbook I used in my undergraduate mechanical metallurgy class:
https://www.amazon.com/Mechanical-Metallurgy-George-Dieter/dp/1259064794
The impact would have caused some of that retardant material to spall from the steel exposing it to the temperatures. Once some of that exposed steel is heated, it will expand due to thermal expansion) causing more insulation material to spall, exposing more steel, etc.
Rex Ray,
Remember Ockham's Razor and Hanlon's Razor are your friends. Use them.
A conspiracy theory is MORE complex, not less.
Thank you CM!
CM,
I welded my Dad a haybarn 40 feet x 80 feet and 26 feet high from thick oil-well pipe. The gable roof made the walls 20 feet high.
5,000 bales of hay burned that caused some of the walls to be 16 feet high. The heat would be far less than jet fuel, and the weight of the tin roof would be nothing compared to the weight of the twin towers.
"A conspiracy theory is MORE complex, not less."
That's an assumption, CM. :) You remind me of Ken F. who introduced me to Occam's Razor concept. It is a good rule of thumb that the more assumption one has, the less likely they are to be correct. I have no problem with that, but life (like people's scheming to get rich) is often very complex. Also, don't underestimate the psychological power behind seeing something on TV and being told what happened (propaganda) by the GOV, or reading about it on Wikipedia. We are so programmed from birth to arrive at conclusions this way.
Rex - some spare viewing and reading about 9/11. Don't forget about the big picture - who benefits. Both OK City and 9/11 were cleaned up far too quickly so a proper investigation could not be performed. The official narrative took far too long to be published. A demolition company down the road from me helped with clean up on both occasions.
BTW - covid-1984 is another controlled demolition of a much bigger scale.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYUYya6bPGw&app=desktop
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/DEW/StarWarsBeam1.html
Ken
Rex Ray,
From your description it appears you saw yourself an example of high-temperature creep in that fire. The weight of the wall and the roof when the hay burned cause the wall metals to flow downward like molasses. In addition, the temperatures would also make it much easier for the hollow pipes to buckle (I assume you saw some of those steel pipes had signs of buckling) under the weight of the roof.
Under tension, metals during high-temperature creep can deform like taffy being pulled apart.
Ken,
Something to consider is this:
Rather than planning a conspiracy to cause the event, it would be far easier for various actors to try to use the unexpected event to their advantage when it happens. Here are 2 examples:
1) The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand in Sarajevo in 1914 which touched off WWI
2) The sinking of the USS Maine in Havana Harbor. It was later determined that the explosion was a caused by an accident aboard the the ship. But it didn't matter, the US went to war (as we were already on a Manifest Destiny bent, William Randolph Hearst stoked the fires of war) and Congress declared War on Spain. Was it Constitutional and legal? Absolutely. Was it a good idea in retrospect? Probably not.
There are numerous others throughout history. This is far more likely than some far-ranging conspiracy. Conspiracy theorists remind me of the Gnostics in the early church era that only they have this super secret knowledge that everyone else is missing or is blinded to. Both cater to the same sinful natures in man.
All,
For those of you wondering what is Hanlon's Razor, I have stated it below:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity (or incompetence)."
CM,
There’s nothing more dangerous than stupidity in action.
Ken's Razor: All governments lie to stay in power so assume they are lying unless you (the people) can prove otherwise.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou4RdfnJX0o&feature=emb_title&time_continue=103
CM - there is nothing inherently sinful about pointing out the hundreds absurdities and lies regarding what the official report says about 9/11, which is why there are thousands of high rise architects, engineers and others shouting foul play with what they say! We have the collapse on film and in pictures, the official report in writing to compare them to. Neither of your examples are valid to the discussion, though I don't disagree those could happen as you state.
Curious - how many hours have you taken to study the 9/11 event? Have you ever worked for the FED GOV? Do you know how the term 'conspiracy theory' got started?
Ken
Rex Ray,
Better yet to quote Dilbert, "There is nothing more dangerous than a resourceful idiot."
Ken,
My analogy between conspiracy theorists and gnostics is that the psychology behind them is very similar. If one were to apply your analysis to the history of the church, one could argue that the Council of Nicea was a conspiracy to suppress the truth of the Gnostic Gospels (and all the other Dan Brown stuff). Also there are thousands of other engineers and architects that disagree with those you point out. The funny thing is that this all this conspiracy Qanon stuff is being brought into the church as Scriptures are being interpreted through Qanon conspiracies:
https://theconversation.com/the-church-of-qanon-will-conspiracy-theories-form-the-basis-of-a-new-religious-movement-137859
https://www.businessinsider.com/psychologist-explains-why-people-believe-conspiracy-theories-during-uncertain-times-2020-4
I have never worked for FedGov, but the original premise of incompetence vs. malice still stands (and this can be tested via the Peter Principle). This observes that people in a hierarchy tend to rise to their "level of incompetence": employees are promoted based on their success in previous jobs until they reach a level at which they are no longer competent, as skills in one job do not necessarily translate to another. FedGov has this in spades.
I don't dispute that governments, people, businesses, churches, and hierarchies lie. But again, the complexities involved for a 9/11 conspiracy (i.e., all the components needed to set it up, plan, and execute it) and even if add in the incentive of lying would still make it the more complex solution, thereby going against Ockam's Razor.
Ken,
Another thing is that your lead guy in the 9/11 conspiracy when he said, "The fires would have not been strong enough to burn through the steel structures." Any metallurgist would immediately mention creep failure which happens at elevated temperatures that are still far below the melting point of steel.
CM, interesting you didn't reveal how many hours you've put in studying 9/11 and the official report, or where the idea of conspiracy theory began. I've dealt with a lot of intelligent people over the years who were very manipulative with their smarts. IF you want to discuss, I'd suggest for you to put the time in and research 9/11 in its entirety (not just the structural aspect) before you engage.
I understand what creep is - it has been sufficiently covered in detail by many and proved it did not lead to the collapse we see on film for many reasons.
"Few have actually read the thousands of pages of the body of the report and the numerous technical attachments provided by the National Institute for Standards and Technology (NIST). Most people believe that NIST explains how those three buildings came down. It does not. Instead it attempts to explain how those three buildings could have come down from plane strikes and (or in the case of Bldg 7, only) office fires. This may seem like a minor technicality but it is in fact a major oversight. The investigation presupposes that the planes and/or fires were the only cause and disregards the possibility of other causes. Every possibility was not considered. In fact, only one was.
Prior to September 11, 2001 a steel-framed building has never collapsed from any event except a planned demolition. Why didn’t the official explanation explore this possibility as well? For some people this may seem like an inflammatory attack on the official report. Afterall, millions of people watched the planes hit the buildings on TV. Why should any other explanation be entertained? To a scientist, or any organization interested in due diligence (e.g. NIST), it is grossly negligent to not explore all conceivable possibilities before arriving at any conclusion. Even an eleventh grade chemistry student must address other possibilities that may explain the results of their experiment in their lab report. "
https://www.collective-evolution.com/2019/09/11/the-official-911-explanation-is-the-greatest-coincidence-theory-ever/
Ken
Ken,
Actually there have been a number of steel-framed buildings that have collapsed due to fire. So the assertion made in your statement and by 9/11 skeptics is blatantly incorrect. One example is the Kader Toy Factory Fire in 1993. Another is the Sight and Sound Theater in Lancaster County, Pa in 1997.
Of course all the ones they listed as not collapsing were not the same design as the WTC (a bundled tube design). So why don't we compare apples to apples shall we?
But then somehow I don't expect you would know about those and somehow I don't think either are mentioned by these 9/11 skeptics as it goes against that particular narrative.
CM - No doubt that particular statement of his wasn't qualified enough (probably should've said "no high-rise steel framed building from the 1880's to 2001 in North America...), but did that prevent you from reading the article and understanding what his key take away points were?
Ken
CM
Did you read the link Ken gave? It’s 21 pages long that proves there were explosions in the buildings AFTER the planes hit. I’ll list seven facts that I think are important that shows ‘authorities’ have covered up the truth.
ONE Page 2
“There were 2,749 people killed. Only 300 whole bodies were recovered. Bone fragments were found on rooftops hundreds of feet away.”
TWO Page 4, 10
Building 7 (47 stories) was 100 yards from nearest Tower. What made it fall in 7 seconds?
THREE Page 10
Gravity cannot throw things laterally. Hundreds of four and eight ton steel frame members were thrown 600 feet from each of the Twin Towers at 80 miles an hour.
FOUR Page 16
For supporting columns to sag and collapse where the planes hit would require a temperature around 1,500 degrees. But in those locations, there were people at windows waving and calling for help. If the temperature was that hot, people would have died in a few seconds.
FIVE Page 18
158 firefighters reported that they heard and witnessed explosions in the twin towers before they collapse. Authorities would not examine for evidence as it would show their incompetence.
SIX Page 19
Engineers said for the towers to fall the central columns would have to be destroyed. Planes only hit the peripheral columns as it was impossible to continue to damage the central columns. A video shows the center of the tower collapsing which means the central columns were destroyed.
SEVEN Page 20
In 2001, all the elevators near the central columns in both towers had major overhauls. No proof but not impossible.
Rex, there were sprinkler systems installed on every floor in the TWINS, unlike Sound and Sound Theater in Lancaster, PA (wife and I were there in the early 90's watching a Noah's Ark presentation), and (I'm assuming) your hay barn.
Ken
Ken,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planning_of_the_September_11_attacks
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed first presented the idea for the September 11 plot to bin Laden in 1996 in Afghanistan.
A series of meetings occurred in the spring of 1999, involving Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Osama bin Laden, and his deputy Mohammed Atef. Bin Laden recommended four individuals for the plot, including Nawaf al-Hazmi, Khalid al-Mihdhar, Walid Muhammad Salih Bin 'Attash (Khallad), and Abu Bara al-Taizi. Al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar were both Saudi citizens, thus making it simple for them to obtain U.S. visas. That gave them 15 years to learn how to destroy the Twin Towers. They learned the real strength of the buildings was in the ‘center columns.
Ken,
You’re right a sprinkle system is no match for bombs. My barn steel would have stayed OK if it’d been surrounded by concrete.
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