It is interesting to note that in both the study of mathematics and gospel doctrine one learns precise systems of thought with established, constant truths that never change (at least from my conservative theological viewpoint). In this post I would like to examine the education of the great physicist and mathematician Albert Einstein and ask this question:
'What kind of environment is needed for great thinkers and theologians to arise out of the Southern Baptist Convention who possess the creative genius to lead us into new and even more effective methodologies of gospel ministry?'
Until Albert Einstein was seventeen years old he was educated in the German schools of Munich. Most German schools, including Albert's, were run with a Prussian sense of military style and efficiency. The students were like privates while the teachers acted as authoritarian officers. Learning was regimented and mechanical with an emphasis on rote memorization and repetitive lessons. Rewards were based on conformity and any creative learning was stifled.
Einstein struggled.
Albert found the style of teaching - rote drills, impatience with questioning, and corporate conformity - to be repugnant. His beloved sister, Maja, made this observation of Einstein's feelings:
"The military tone of the school, the systematic training in the worship of authority that was supposed to accustom pupils at an early age to military discipline, was particularly unpleasant."
According to biographer Walter Isaacson, in his recently published book simply entitled Einstein, Albert developed a deep contempt for the authoritarian style and militarist atmosphere of German schools. One day when troops in a parade marched down the street where Einstein lived, and all the children came pouring out of their apartments to watch, Einstein refused to join in. He told his parents . . .
When I grow up, I don't want to be one of those poor people. When a person can take pleasure marching in step to a piece of music it is enough to make me despise him. He has been given his big brain only by mistake.
The Reason Einstein Began to Flourish Academically
In 1895, when Einstein was seventeen, his family moved to Switzerland for reasons associated with his father's business. Einstein enrolled at the cantonal school in the village of Aarau before his entrance into the Zurich Polytechnic School.
Aaru was a perfect school for Einstein. According to Isaacson,
The teaching was based on the philosophy of a Swiss educational reformer of the early nineteenth century, Johann Heinrich Pestalozzi, who believed in encouraging students to visualize images. He also thought it important to nurture the 'inner dignity' and individuality of each child. Students should be allowed to reach their own conclusions, Pestalozzi preached, by using a series of steps that began with hands-on observations and then proceeded to intuitions, conceptual thinking, and visual imagery. It was even possible to learn - and truly understand - the laws of math and physics that way. Rote drills, memorization, and force-fed facts were avoided.
Einstein loved Aarau. Maja, Einstein's sister, said of the school,
Pupils were treated individually. More emphasis was placed on independent thought than on punditry, and young people saw the teacher not as a figure of authority, but, alongside the student, a man of distinct personality.
It was the exact opposite of the German instruction Einstein hated. His love for Swiss education and the freedom of individuality eventually led Einstein to renounce his German citizenship. Of course, the German system of worshipping human authority eventually led to the rise of one of the world's worst dictators just a four decades later.
Einstein later said of his year at Aarau,
When compared to six years' schooling at a German authoritarian gymnasium, Aarau made me clearly realize how much superior an education based on free action and personal responsibility is to one relying on outward authority.
Application to the Southern Baptist Convention
(1). Young evangelical pastors and leaders need an atmosphere where they are free to think and flourish in their own, individual, and creative way according to the manner in which God has gifted each of them.
(2). Demands to submit to authoritarian control through mental assent to force-fed facts or truths, and demands for blind allegiance to established systems of denominational structure will thwart any sense of creativity and possibly restrict new and more effective means for accomplishing even greater Christian ministry.
(3). The discovery and advancement of more effective methodologies in missions ministry comes from hands-on experience of Southern Baptists who are actually doing missions rather than Southern Baptists who are hearing about missions.
(4). If young evangelical pastors and leaders ever get a taste of the freedom to do ministry as they visualize it needs to be done, but feel attacked or threatened by older mentors, they will eventually renounce their allegiance for, and membership in, the Southern Baptist Convention.
(5). The threat to the Southern Baptist Convention does not come from more freedom given to her members, but rather, the tightening of parameters and the authoritarian control that stifles creativity in missions and ministry.
In His Grace,
Wade Burleson
65 comments:
Very well said.
Thanks for continuing to say it in creative, unique and memorable ways.
Pastor Joe
Zing - !
That's the sound of this post hitting the bulls eye.
I am in between those who are old and young. I graduated SWBTS in 97. I experienced two presidents and a minor changing of the guard as far as professors. I have always felt the greatest impact was made by those who challenged me to think rather than to simply swallow. Those who believed differently were not viewed as heretical, only different. I appreciated the thought process and walked away with a sense of what I believed because I had determined it in light of differences. I never had a professor, and neither did my wife, who went against the primary issues of the BFM, though they would differentiate on other matters. The ability to reason and cooperate is the foundational element of the SBC. Without it we become moot.
Wade,
I'm not sure I can go all the way with you on the comparison between theology and mathematics, but I sympathize with your point for sure.
The part of your post that really speaks to my situation is this:
"If young evangelical pastors and leaders ever get a taste of the freedom to do ministry as they visualize it needs to be done, but feel attacked or threatened by their mentors, they will eventually renounce their allegience for, and membership in, the Southern Baptist Convention."
Honestly, this is where my husband and I are right now. We love our church and have never felt threatened or attacked within it (at least not in a significant way). But, I'm pursuing a Ph.D. to teach theology and that's not going to be accepted in SBC circles as they exist today. Moreover, I don't see the intellectual freedom in our circles that I feel I need as well. As a result, we may be on the way out when the Lord says, "Go." We'll seek His will in all this, of course, but we're preparing ourselves for if and when the time comes.
I appreciate the post, Wade.
Grace and peace,
Emily
Between your vision of the SBC and this one, I darn sure want yours.
Wade, excellent post.
Chris Smith,
After reading the article you linked, I was left with the question of where separatism and denominational identity are found in scripture. I noticed there isn't a single biblical citation in that article, not even a prooftext. It seems that those who are advocating this position wouldn't really care too much about young, creative pastors and churches leaving the convention. That way, they can have it all to themselves, all seven of them.
Thanks for the link.
Rex Ray said…
Six years ago, Southern Baptist Theological Seminary President Al Mohler said, “They [conservatives] believe in the priesthood of the BELIEVERS but not the priesthood of the BELIEVER, because it leaves too much FREEDOM for the individual…conservatives are the party of truth while the moderates are the party of freedom.”
I believe it’s hard to have truth without freedom. “False brothers…who came in secretly to spy on our freedom that we have in Christ Jesus, if order to enslave us.” (Galatians 2:4)
Wade, keep on keeping on. (Our internet provider has been down over a week.)
Hooray for creativity in delivering the timeless message of Jesus Christ!
Wade: This resonates wonderfully with Ken Hemphill's study course "Serving God .. Discovering and Using Your Spiritual Gifts". In it, he says that the Holy Spirit is creative and is constantly creating new gifts in response to the times and the people's conditions.
God is quite innovative.
It's just like man to read the Bible and say "That's the only way God CAN work". God may have revealed everything WE know about Spiritual matters, but He sure hasn't told us everything HE knows.
Wade,
I really like your writing, how it is so parable-like. You hit the nail on the head again, keep fighting the good fight!.
Dear Wade,
Good morning, my brother Wade. I trust your week off to a good first half. Doggone it, Wade! Wouldn' you know it? I have to go and be the first one to sing a different tune. Doe, Ray, Me, Fa, So....
First, who could argue with this, Wade? You rightly assert: "Young ...leaders need an atmosphere where they are free to think and flourish in each his own, individual, and creative way as God has gifted him." Frankly, I know of not one person in the SBC who, if asked if he/she agrees or disagrees with your affirmation would sympathize with the latter.
The problem appears, at least to me, to come as this innocuous assertion is teased out further, specifically in number 2. There a call for creativity is issued not because creativity is a God-given virtue of our individuality in Christ.
Rather due to "authoritian control", "mental assent", "force-fed facts", "blind allegience", "established systems" young leaders creativity is thwarted and possibly restricted from better and more effective ministry. I guess that means, Wade, Southern Baptists are brainwashing--or at least trying to brainwash--our young leaders.
Know I agree with you--if we are doing such--that we need to stop it.
Also, you are not suggesting Southern Baptist culture is even remotely akin to the rise of Nazi Germany, are you? You do write: "Of course, the German system of worshipping human authority eventually led to the rise of one of the world's worst dictators" and then approvingly quote Einstein's sympathy: "...Aarau made me [Einstein] clearly realize how much superior an education based on free action and personal responsibility is to one relying on outward authority."
Perhaps Dr. Akin or Dr. Mohler (I would mention Dr. Patterson but I don't think his name carries much clout in this community) would love to respond to your apparent suggestion of brainwashing our young leaders. Or perhaps Dr. Rankin could weigh in. I'd really like to know their thoughts.
Grace, Wade. With that, I am...
Peter
Wade...this seems to be a local church issue...my suggestion to a guy who really wants to spread his wings and get into very creative methods...look into church planting and don't even fool with a traditional baptist church. I know my creativity has never been stifled…I’ve never been told “no” since becoming a church planter…I don’t have the $$$ it takes to do all I’d like to do…but what I can do…I can do…
Mr. Lumpkins,
The worship of any human authority, whether it be political or religious - including men I admire like Gill and Spurgeon - is dangerous. The message of these men has remained the same. The methods of effective gospel ministry have changed.
My point is you don't call someone loyal based upon the willingness to copy the methods of one's mentors (i.e. always a center aisle in the church, Sunday School evangelism is the best kind of evangelism, etc . . . )
Someone is loyal to Christ when they are loyal to the message of the gospel regardless of the methods of ministry, missions and evangelism.
Dr.'s Mohler and Dr.'s Patterson are always welcome to respond or comment on this blog if they choose, but to respond to the questions you raise would be appropriate on your blog only, not mine, since you have, as is your habit, come to my blog and changed the very meaning of my post. If you feel so strongly on your position - which has nothing to do with what I wrote - please type your own post, accusing me of whatever you desire - and invite responses there.
In His Grace,
Wade
Your support of the conservative takeover of the SBC has helped to bring about such rigidity in methodology. Fundamentalism knows only one way which is the way of the power structure.
Agreement with the irreverant fox!
I didn't know if I would ever get to agree with you but on this I am with you. A few years ago I attended a conference where one of our young Texas emergent church pastors was assaulting the traditional church. I thought at the time, “friend leave it alone.” Nothing is keeping you from building a church with your methodology. If it falls outside the parameters of the state convention or NAMB for financial assistance, it can still be Baptist but function without financial support.
Anonymous,
The reason I supported the 'conservative takeover' is because I am deeply concerned that we value the Scriptures as a whole.
To the extent that any conservative Bible believers were slanderously identified as 'moderate' or 'liberal' is the extent to which the resurgence failed.
The theme of this year's SBC was "Lord, send your Holy Spirit."
But, only in the context of the way that we, in the separatist/Anabaptist tradition have determined is doctrinally correct according to our thorough exegesis of the scriptures and not through any means which might disturb or even disprove that view, particularly not involving tongues, private prayer language, or any other miraculous or supernatural way which we have determined you limited to the apostolic age of the church for the purpose of authentication of messages before the scriptures were canonized.
We are, after all, Southern Baptists.
;)
The mathematical analogy is very good.
The discovery (personal ownership and application) of the truths of math is distinctly personal: the mathematicians take pleasure in the beauty of their theorems, the engineers take those truths and apply them to practical issues, but both remain committed to the underlying, non-negotiable facts. For the sake of the readership, I'll stick with 1+1=2 (although I'd love to talk about Fourier integrals, etc.).
As an engineering educator, I find it necessary to give my students room to discover those truths in ways that are meaningful to them. That's the flexibility proposed in the original post. As an educator, I also find in necessary to correct students when they assert such foolishness as 1+1=3. That, I think, is the value of the conservative movement.
While the math analogy eventually breaks down, it's a very good example for the point being made.
I met a man, an ex-wino, in Indiana, who had an unusual soul-winning technique. He'd go to the local Skid Row and pay winos a dollar (the price of a bottle of Ripple) to go to church with him. He's the guy who first said, in my hearing, that Christianity is one hobo telling another hobo where he can go to find bread.
I think that man would probably be frowned on for his brand of "creativity", nowadays, but the winos who got saved numbered in the hundreds.
Tell me that I as a Southern Baptist cannot do something and I will knock on heaven's door, asking God to show that through Him all things are possible, even using someone like me.
Wade, If Wittgenstein is right, and I only think by inference rather than conclusion he is, I am not sure your comparison is accurate. For instance, for the sake of conformity to cultural norms in education and [post]modernistic developmental ideas, I think we have abandoned the catechism approach much to the chagrin of our later retention rate among children in the church. BTW, this is great fodder for a scholarly thesis or dissertation--Is the retention decline among our youth an issue that only our age faces or has it been an issue historically?
One thing I have learned over the course of several degrees and years walking with Christ is the need for humility, over and above creativity, based on the tensions that exist within theology--incarnation, inspiration, salvation [absolutely free but costs you everything], etc. Perhaps the better direction we ought to go as a convention is not into our own creativity but, with heightened humility, deeper into the expanse of God. John Piper's quote of Charles Misner, in Let the Nations Be Glad, is a nice reminder in the connection between Einstein and his rejection of institutional religions, "The design of the universe . . . is very magnificent and shouldn't be taken for granted. In fact, I believe that is why Einstein had so little use for organized religion, although he strikes me as a basically very religious man. He must have looked at what the preachers said about God and felt that they were blaspheming. He had seen much more majesty that they had ever imagined, and they were just not talking about the real thing. My guess is that he simply felt that religions he'd run across did not have proper respect . . . for the author of the universe (12)."
Wade, rather than trying to stretch or push the boundaries of what we can do in order to gain a reputation among people, what if we instead sought to stretch the limits as to how we challenged people both believer and unbeliever based on what we ought to do? I think Paul's approach was not so people would say, "wow, he is creative," but rather to allow people to confront truth about God from a different perspective than their own cultural make-up afforded them up to that point. What if our novel approach was simply to get people to take seriously the call to follow Christ based on the place where they are? Wade we all know the world is watching and I think Jim, the atheist in Jim and Casper Go To Church, gives us insight as to whether or not the world is really looking for creativity. Jim finds much of the Christianity he encounters rather odd and wonders, "is this really what Jesus told you to do?" The world is looking for authenticity and integrity more than creativity. I am not against creativity but never at the expense of our witness to the world. I highly recommend Jim and Casper Go to Church to see how our creativity may even hinder the gospel at times. Just thought I would offer insight from a different perspective.
Wade,
I'm glad that you are addressing this very important subject. I agree that we need to encourage creativity in evangelistic methodology. Our American culture has changed, and evangelism obviously is more difficult now than it used to be. I saw the same phenomenon as an IMB missionary in South Korea. After 100 years of continuous Protestant growth, the percentage of Protestants has been plateaued at about 19% for the past ten years. The South Korean Christians are working as hard at evangelism as they have in the past, but their culture has changed, and evangelism is now more difficult. In both countries there is a need for creativity.
Dear Wade,
Thank you for spelling my name right this time since it does contain an "s" :^)
I think it is fair for you to suggest I raise questions on my own post, my Brother. No quibbling there.
What stands odd is the newer revelation to me: "...you have, *as is your habit*, come to my blog and *changed the very meaning* of my post" (emphasis mine).
While we've experienced honest disagreement before, you have never framed your defense toward my dissent in such terms. I shall ponder them.
Shalom. Have a pleasant afternoon, my good fellow.
With that, I am...
Peter
The Biblical Message never changes, the Biblical Method never changes, the only thing that changes is the Means to get the Message out. Your philophy is wrong because your theology is wrong.
Thank you Peter for your gracious words and pondering what I have said to you.
Blessings,
Wade
ml,
Good thoughts. I would never be opposed to your view of catechism -- unless it were demanded of everyone else.
In the same manner, if I were to demand only the free and independent view of learning for everyone else, then I too would be in error, for I would be just as controlling as those I seek to gently remind to lighten up.
:)
BTW Wade, have you read Jim and Casper? I do recommend it.
I have not. Thanks for the recommendation.
BTW, I agree with the late Donald McGavran and other missiologists that the receptivity principle is relevant to methodology. Among groups that are very resistant to the gospel, no methods of evangelism and church planting produce a large number of disciples and churches. In contrast, among groups that are very receptive to the gospel, almost all biblical methods of evangelism and church planting are successful. Among the groups that are neither highly resistant nor highly receptive, the careful selection of methods is more important because some methods work better than others in such fields.
Edward R. Dayton and David A. Fraser, Planning Strategies for World Evangelization, rev. ed. (Eugene, OR: Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2003), 130; McGavran, How Churches Grow, 129-130.
Too many people ignore the tried and true principle described by McGavran that is still relevant in our multicultural society:
“Correct policy is to occupy fields of low receptivity lightly. The harvest will ripen someday. . . . While they continue in their rebellious and resistant state, they should be given the opportunity to hear the gospel in as courteous a way as possible. But they should not be heavily occupied lest, fearing that they will be swamped by Christians, they become even more resistant. They should not be bothered and badgered. . . . While holding them lightly, Christian leaders should perfect organizational arrangements so that when these lands turn responsive, missionary resources can be sent in quickly.”
Donald A. McGavran, Understanding Church Growth, third edition, revised and edited by C. Peter Wagner (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1990), 191.
In general, America is in the middle ground in regard to receptivity, so creative methodology is especially important here. There are, however, groups in America that are more receptive than other groups, and those of us who have access to such receptive groups should concentrate our efforts on those groups while they are receptive.
Wade,
Frankly I don't know of any "Young evangelical pastors" who are being stiffled in their creativity for the gospel by "authoritarian control." We as Southern Baptists are autonomous and no one can dictate how we minister the gospel in our communitees. I think you are just trying to establish a problem that doesn't really exist. I am a "young evangelical pastor," 31 years old, who serves in your own state of Oklahoma, and have never expierenced a iron fist of conformity against new ways to do ministry. I have never been forcefully or passively hindered in being creative at reaching the lost and equipping the saints. Not by the SBC, NAMB, IMB, or GBCO. Why? Because we are autonomous. If anything I see great resources of creativity within the SBC. Look at what we are doing as Oklahoma Baptists, look at what B&H is publishing on church growth stratigies, look what excellent faculty we are equipping our seminaries and even LifeWay Christian Resources. If anything we are more open to creativity today then ever in SBC life. I don't see any weight to your argument of a "threat." It seems you are just using creative exaggeration and overstatement but maybe you really believe that things are really this bad.
Oklahoma Joe
Joe,
Ask Dwight McKissic if he agrees with you.
Ask Sheri Kluoda if she agrees with you.
Ask Kelly Hailey if he agrees with you.
Ask David Cathey if he agrees with you.
Ask Karen Bullock if she agrees with you.
Ask the hundreds of denominational employees who have emailed me saying they feel either stifled, threatened, or controlled for even suggesting doing something out of the box if they agree with you.
Blessings,
Wade
WADE,
If you could please change your Date setup and include the time it sure would make it easy for following the comments on this Blog.
In His Name
Wayne Smith
I do not feel it is my place to ask those whom you've mentioned if they disagree since this is not their weblog but yours, that is why I am asking you and not commenting on their weblogs.
I also would like to ask you if in this blog are you speaking specifically of cases out of the context of those situations in which your readers do not know the speicific details or are you instead making a generalization for all "young evangelical pastors and leaders" in the SBC? Why not share some of the positive creative examples that the SBC has celebrated too. This blog seems to be similar to that of the secular news media, only sharing the negative without affirming the positive things. There are also hundreds of "creative" "out of the box" things that are happening in ministry through the SBC and her agencies. Why not devote a blog to how your fellow Southern Baptist Oklahomans were creative in reaching hundreds of people for Christ through the first time even "Across Oklahoma?" Why cry "the sky is falling" in the SBC?
Oklahoma Joe
I had decided I was not going to get in this post. I totally agree with Wade and I fully expected some to be snotty and some hateful.
HOWEVER, I am from Oklahoma also and Oklahoma Joe said
" I have never expierenced a iron fist of conformity against new ways to do ministry. I have never been forcefully or passively hindered in being creative at reaching the lost and equipping the saints. Not by the SBC, NAMB, IMB, or GBCO.ade
Young man, count your blessings, thousands of folks, myself included, have been in this for years.
Christ Himself said there were wolves among the sheep. Those wolves have destroyed many lives with half truth and slander.
Many have been left homeless, umemployed and destitute in the name of religion. The lies and attackes have been going on for almost 30 years. Just because you have not expierenced something does not mean it has not happened.
"Do not be decieved, GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED."
Great job Wade
Fearing only God
cbp
My, my. Some people seem just to be against everything. Sounds a lot like the first church I served, which had been established about 1772, and was haunted by the memory of every pastor who had ever served it! "We've never done 'it' that way before, old Rev. so-and-so would never had done 'it' that way!" Everyone may not find it so, because some are content to do "it" the way it has been done for years and years. Occasionally it even works, or rather "it" will always work for a certain segment of the society. Unfortunantly, that segment seems to be rapidly shrinking, so its effectiveness will depend on how much "competition" a given church doing "it" has.
We have allowed the world to define us more by what we are against than by what we are for--and within the churches, we are even defining ourselves that way. Funny--I don't recall Jesus ever doing that.
One thing I find absent in the comments by those who oppose yout creativity message, Wade, is mention of spiritual gifts. It is as if creativity cannot possibly be a gift of the Spirit given to the churches or to Christians--at most, it MUST be subserviant to something else: traditions, humility, theology, rules, SOMETHING. Folks: do any of you think it is even possible that creativity can be a God-given gift?
John Fariss
Country baptist preacher,
Your rhetoric sounds very vitriolic. I am not comfortable calling those brothers and sisters in Christ with whom I disagree in the SBC "wolves among the sheep."
Oklahoma Joe
Calling the truth rhetoric and vitriolic just proves my point
grace
cbp
it really depends on what you call creativity. if you're talking about someone starting a cowboy church, then more power to them. if by creativity, you're talking about a pentecostal church where the people coo like doves, then i'm all for that creativity being stifled. if you're calling creativity a church that starts in manhattan having artists drawing pics of Jesus or other sacred scenes during the worship service, then wonderful. but, if you're calling creative people serving alcohol during the worship service and people are standing up saying that they find God in a light bulb, then i say stifle it. i would also say stifle the creativity of people teaching that women can be pastors, or that jedp theory is true over moses being the author of the first five books, and such unbiblical nonsense as that.
so, it all depends on what your calling creative.
david
Wade,
"To the extent that any conservative Bible believers were slanderously identified as 'moderate' or 'liberal' is the extent to which the resurgence failed."
That is brilliant!
david: Come on now. I think you know that is not what we are talking about. You have been given these facts before. Why not stick with them and not go beyond what is actually being said.
Oklahoma Joe: Could it be that you have just not been around those who feel stifled in this area or maybe you haven't reached too far outside the box. Obviously they are out there. Why do you write as you do yet when challenged to talk to the above people you say it's not your place? Could it be that you could be proven wrong?
Wade,
Thanks very much for the time stamp on comments. It makes it much easier for finding new comments.
In His Name
Wayne Smith
Wade,
I think you should be on Central Time Zone.
In His Name
Wayne Smith
Pastor Wade,
A good post with alot to consider.
I like it.
Volfan,
I`ve been to some Pentecostal churches before and I`ve never heard anyone "coo" like a dove. Where might I find this phenomena?
Wayne Smith,
Thanks neighbor, for asking Wade to add the time to the date. It helps in ‘detective work’—like knowing how long a reply was made in relation to another comment.
But I was trained to put the month/day/year. Now, all I have to do is subtract hours and then convert this old brain into military time. I think I’ll get a calculator. But something is better than nothing. It’s almost like trying to please everyone in the SBC
BTW Wade, thanks.
Agree with your post Wade.
Have worked with both country and suburban churches over the years and know first hand how things can differ. I am also glad that is has been brought out about people who "step out of line" are sometimes hounded by those who don't agree. It doesn't have to be anything big..but if you don't do it they way they want or the way grandad did it 50 years ago they get all bent out of shape...not taking into consideration that the ministry will not progress if we continue down the same old path. God equips us to understand the situation he puts us in. In doing so the individual is equipted to minister, or coordinate ministry. If folks shut God out and rely totally on tradition....ministry will cease to grow. Look at a lot of older country churches. A lot of family and traditional influence in a lot of them...and what happens? You go to change something and a pastor or deacon ends up leaving because "we just don't do things that way here". I have seen once active churches with several hundred members go to nothing...because the leadership has no vision or idea of what God is trying to acomplish....they just want things to stay the same...
very sad really.
kirk
Wayne,
I want new day posts for 10:00 p.m. central so i can go to bed. :)
Thus, I'm on Atlantic time. The hour step will help track.
Wade
Wade,
A very thoughtful post. Many concepts here speak to where I find myself in Southern Baptist life.
Oklahoma Joe,
I think you have to be in a state of denial to say that autonomy prevents the stifling of creativity in Baptist life. I pastor an autonomous Southern Baptist church. We are a very creative, contemporary, "simple church" modeled congregation ... and we have been soundly rejected, castigated, and ostracized by the local Southern Baptist establishment ... all because we are different in our scheduling and the way we "do church."
Our church planters / missionaries face the possibility of removal of funds if they "step over the line." Indeed, I recently discovered that church planters receiving NAMB support cannot even appear on videos / TV without NAMB approval! And there is, reportedly, a ban on blogging by employees of certain of our Baptist entities. I have not yet been able to confirm that. But isn't such an oppressive, controlling policy a frightening thought in Baptist life?
So, as in most cases, the power of the "purse strings" ... the funding of a missionary or the salary of a denom worker ... is the instrument used to stifle creativity. It IS going on in Southern Baptist life. And that's why so many of our young, creative types are on the verge of "checking out," if they haven't already.
Like Wade, I perceive that this is a looming crisis in SB life.
davidinflorida,
i have seen the cooing like a dove on a video of a pentecostal/charismatic type church service with kenneth copeland and kenneth hagin...i believe that was the two men involved. they were getting wild in this worship service. they were acting like drunk men...saying that they were drunk in the Holy Ghost. then, a woman starting cooing like a dove. then, others in the congregation starting cooing like doves.
also, i've heard and seen pentecostal/charismatic churches start barking like dogs...laughing uncontrollably...rolling around on the floor...doing line dancing to the worship music...handling snakes...etc., etc., etc.
so, some creativity needs to be stifled.
also, liberals wanting to teach trash to the seminary and to churches needs to be stifled. thank God a lot of that was accomplished during the cr.
but, i agree with geoff's statement above as well. not all creativity needs to be stifled as i stated in my comment made earlier.
david
Dear David Volfan007,
Not all creativity needs to stiffled, eh David? Just that with which you disagree? Just that with which the majority of trustees of IMB and SWBTS, those which Drs. Patterson, Mohler and a few others disagree? Who gets to draw the line? What is their criteria for drawing that line? Has the Cocnvention told them where to draw the line? From whence do they derive the Biblical authority to draw it?
I ask again the question I asked earlier on this blog: DO WE AS SOUTHERN BAPTISTS NO LONGER BELIEVE ACTS 5: 38-39? Is Scripture sufficient in some case, but not in others? Does God need our help in seperating the sheep from the goats, and the wheat from the chaff?
BTW: I have only been to a couple of pentecostal-charismatic service, but I didn't think snake handling was part of their style. The only ones I have known of doing that were some of our Baptist brothers.
John Fariss
volfan,
Writing as a charismatic myself, I admit that there are some churches which practice the behaviors which you so carefully seem to attribute to pentecostals/charismatics as a whole. However, I should gently like to suggest that there are a great many other churches which, while maintaining charismatic distinctives, do not coo like doves, bark like dogs, handle snakes, and so on. Those that do tend to be regionalized.
Do charismatics tend to be a bit more demonstrative than those who are not? Hmm. Not always. Having watched a number of Southern Baptist video sermons which have been referenced on this blog and others, I have observed a high level of theatrical flair in terms of speaking style, etc. Yet, I think most folks understand that it would be premature to assume that all Southern Baptist preachers utilize the stylistic preferences of their denominational leaders.
My point is, there are a great many pentecosals/charismatics who do not practice the behaviors you describe. Plus there are whole denominations who do not practice such behaviors, although obviously the exception could occur in isolated areas.
I make this comment, speaking only for myself of course. I realize I cannot change the opinion of others, but I wanted to present an alternative perspective from someone who is a charismatic.
Blessings,
Glen Woods
john and glenn,
did i say that all pentecostals/charismatics handle snakes and coo like doves? no. but, the ones that i've seen do this, or heard about doing these things, were definitely pentecostal/charismatic type churches.
david
ps. i'm for stifling anything that's wild and extreme and koo koo. i'm for stifling anything that makes christians look like numbskulls and wackos. i'm also for stifling anything that's unbiblical. yes, i am. but, i'm for any creativity that goes along with the scriptures and uplifts the name of Jesus.
Volfan,
I would apply 2 SAM 6:16-23 here.
Can you judge when and how someone, other than yourself, is in worship to God?
Volfan,
I believe that David looked like a numbskull and a wacko to Michal. That`s the point of that scripture.
The problem is the word "looked". I wouldn`t judge others worship.
davidinflorida,
I got to go to one of the sessions at the Founders Conference this week.
So you would disagree with them, I guess. They seem to think that there needs to be a return to Biblical worship.
This seems to presuppose that there is something that is Biblical worship and something that can be identified as not Biblical worship.
What boundaries do you place on what worship is or is not?
I ditto these who have seen local church action squelched by Baptist leadership. How many churches have been told that they would be, as a start, disfellowshipped by their local association if they selected a woman (business executive, in the case I know) as a deacon? Is that why Ky. Baptists have DOMs?
I know that THAT time was the closest that old church ever came to going independent or ABA.
We have to foster independent thought, lest we disappear or become like salt that has lost its savor. The only Baptist distinctive I crave is saving the lost.
Steve Austin
Hoptown, Ky.
Dear David Volan007,
Stiffle anything that make us, "look like numbskulls and wackos" eh?
A question--and I mean this at face value, not sarcasticly, or with any malice whatsoever. At what age did you become a Christian? And related to that, were you raised in the church?
I was not so raised; other than weddings and funerals, in my first 20 or 25 years, I darkened the doorway of a church very few times (and most of those were for the wrong reasons--either as a child, I went with a favorite uncle, or later because of a cute girl). I was evangelized at age 20, and converted at age 25. And even though I am now almost 54, I still remember my thought processes back then. From that perspective, I can say there are few things more wacko or numbskull than than believing some guy was 100% human AND simultaneously 100% divine! There are few things more wacko or numbskull than than believing that one man's death on a cross 2000 years ago could impact my relationship with God! There are few things more wacko or numbskull than believing that the God who created not only our world, but all the wonders of the microcosmos thrieving in a drop of water, and the macrocosmos which we can barely glimpse through the most powerful telescopes, would want a relationship with me! And there is nothing more wacko or numbskull than believing that a man died, graveyard dead as we used to say back in Alabama, and on the third day, lived again, and not only lived again, but died to death itself! From the perspective of an unsaved person from a background like mine, the only non-wacko, non-numbskull things in "religion" are the cold, impersonal, gnostic or diestic sort, typlified by Voltaire, or at most, by Thomas Jefferson.
Now, I really don't believe that is what you meant by "wacko and numbskull," but words have meanings, sometimes beyond what we intend in their use. The phrase that Paul used to convey what "wacko and numbskull" was to the world is "the scandal of the cross" (Galatians 5:11). You may not have meant "wacko and numbskull" that way, but those are your words. And in an absolute sense, David, I think I understand what you mean. You are talking about things, that relative to our (or at least your) sensabilities, do not fit into what you believe; they are things with which you are uncomfortable (and believe it or not, most or all of them are also things with which I am uncomfortable). But I would suggest that defining what "should be stiffled" by "things that make Christians look like wackos and numbskulls" is a very subjective thing. And after all: the differences between you or I, and an humble, gentle charismatic believer like Glen Woods--or even between us and an over-the-top believer such as those you mention in your comment--are much less than the differences between us and a worldly, unbeliever.
In the scandal of the cross,
John Fariss
Volfan, I think there is an implicit danger in what you are saying. I agree in that I do not want to applaud anything that I "perceive" to be unbiblical. But I want to do this with incredible humility and even offer that I may be wrong. I think this is where Wade was headed. To the Pharisees, Jesus was rather "unbiblical" in many instances based on their interpretation that they held as biblical. In fact, I love the Michael Card song God's Only Fool and find it interesting that with that very song some in evangelical circles took offense because Jesus was being called a fool thought it was based on the world's standards of foolishness. Yet there are many instances of this in the Bible. I think Noah appeared rather cuckoo when building a boat when it had never even rained. I suspect you are saying, and you can correct me if I am wrong, that there are certain things that we ought to judge against scripture and I agree and doubt many would disagree. I think Wade is saying, again he can speak to this himself, to judge against scripture but with a recognition that our judgments are not infallible only scripture is. Let’s not pretend that an inerrant Bible guarantees inerrant application or interpretation. Hence lessen the pharisaicalism and heightened the freedom and grace found in Christ. Oh and leave the ad absurdum appeals aside because they do not strengthen your argumentation [Some do this extreme; therefore denounce all remotely near or close as synonymous].
i'm more than willing to be a fool for Christ's sake. and, i've been looked upon as such many times. i'm willing to look silly to the lost, ungodly crowd as i seek to worship and serve the Lord God. but, remember this, the Holy Spirit came to make fools into men, not men into fools. and, barking like dogs, or making women deacons and pastors, or telling the congregation that it's happy hour at the ole church picnic, is not exactly being a fool for the sake of Christ. cooing like doves and swinging from the chandeliers is not exactly being a numbskull for Jesus.
if the world looks at us as stupid, or as idiots, for weeping as we sing songs to Jesus, and giving at least a tithe to the offering, then let them thank it. if the world thinks that we're stupid for believing the bible, or for going to ghana or zimbabwe to start churches and win souls, then let them think whatever they like. who cares what they think?
but, if someone gets on tv and says that she's a stripper for christ(which i've seen btw), then stifle that kind of creativity. it makes us look needlessly foolish. or, if a church calls a woman pastor, in direct violation of God's Word, then stifle that kind of creativity. or, if someone says that we need to bet the offering plate at the casino, then stifle that kind of creativity. we dont need to look that kind of foolish.
i'll be a fool for Christ anyday, but i dont want to make myself into a fool by silly, wild, extreme thinking that doesnt honor God in any form nor fashion.
david
Thanks for your opinion volfann.
Blessings,
Glen Woods
glenn,
thanks. also, i just want you to know that i love you in the Lord, and i thank God for all the good you do for the kingdom. i dont agree with your doctrine, and i obviously dont want the sbc to become charismatic, nor pentecostal, but i thank God for all that yall do for the glory of the Lord.
david :)
Karen in OK,
I`ll go back to the same verses that I gave Volfan. 2 SAM 6 16-23. I believe that more people than Michal thought that David was a kook. David didn`t care because his worship was from the heart. God judged it, Michal shouldn`t have, and either should we.
I`ve been around when some worship services appeared to be on the edge of weird (to me),but I didn`t judge them. If you are uncomfortable, then leave.
So, to answer your questions, I agree with Biblical worship, I don`t know if I agree with the Founders or not...No boundries on worship, as long as it`s Biblical, which to me means from the heart.
John 4:23 But the hour comes, and now is, when true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeketh such to worship Him.
Hab 3:18 Yet I will rejoice in the Lord. I will joy in the God of my salvation.....joy = gil " to spin around with intense motion"
Thanks for the gracious words David. I appreciate the affirmation and also consider you a brother in the Lord. I look forward to the day when the Lord sets things to rights in the eschaton and we will stop having to worry about denominations, doctrinal interpretations and the like so that we can focus fully on Jesus.
I acccept that you do not agree with my doctrine. I also do not agree with some of your doctrine as near as I can tell, based on what you have articulated in comments I have read on this blog. Nor do I agree with some of the comments you have made on this and other posts either. I suppose that is why we are in different groups. Also, I have no interest in attempting to proselytize folks on this or any other SBC blog to become pentecostals or charismatics. My time is better served spending time with the lost, as I do most of the time in my ministry in the city and online.
My aim, like many of the millions of charismatics around the world, is to preach Christ and him crucified, risen bodily and coming soon. I believe, with millions of Christians around the world that salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus alone. I believe in the virgin birth and that Jesus is fully God and fully human. Maybe I am wrong, but I am guessing that we can agree on that much, yes?
Also, I believe in being fair with those groups whose beliefs differ in part or even in whole from mine and with whom I am in dialogue by taking the time to understand the breadth and scope of their distinctives before making public judgments about their practices or beliefs. If I am going to make a statement about someone's beliefs, I would be wise to know what those beliefs are as a matter of credibility so that I can describe them accurately.
My point in raising the issue in the first place was to attempt to illustrate that there are many in the charismatic fold of Christianity who are capable of irenic dialogue as well as biblical scholarship.
From my standpoint, I did not, nor do I see what the topic of Wade's post has to do with a few abberant regionalized practices of a very specific local charismatic group, particularly the Word of Faith movement. By the way, I would not include dancing before the Lord in the same breath with handling snakes, cooing at doves or barking like dogs. But that is just me. :)
Thanks for the dialogue. Hopefully the length of my comment doesn't annoy Wade. :)
Blessings,
Glen Woods
On the technical side of the writing responses, please note that there is a time stamp with the messages now. If you are replying/responding to someone else's comment, please put the date/time stamp (or at least the time stamp) perhaps on the same line as the name of the person you are replying to. Then the rest of us can do a control-f and put the time stamp in and find the specific comment you are replying to.
On a humorous note--I thought for a while that volfan007 was perhaps a reader of the Harry Potter/James Bond stories. It was a pleasant surprise when I found that he was from about 12 miles from my home town in Tennessee and thus (presumably) a fan of UT (the one with the "wimpy orange" uniforms).
Bennett Willis--now in Texas
bennet willis,
we're ya from?
david
As a fairly well-read Southern Baptist what you are describing in your blog is way, way off. With Southern Baptist Ed Young (Jr.--although he's now right at middle age), there is the Creative Pastor's conference taught around the country in partnership with many of the Baptist state conventions and even in our seminary classrooms; with Florida's Troy Gramling who has unveiled a new spin on confessions and is openly part of the state convention there; Random Acts of Kindness (FAITH, ICE, block parties and latin music, and other assorted methods of evangelism during Crossover San Antonio; innovative NAMB approaches which include using disaster relief and rebuilding, medical ministries and even concerts to reach people; and the many, many conferences, seminars, 2X2 programs and other such approaches employed by the IMB in reaching all peoples--surely you do not see the same SBC that I see. Surely, these young discontents you are talking about are most likely the 40 and 50 year old somethings who are begining to sound like the "Left Behinds." I challenge you to discover the fresh, creative and innovative wondrous things that are happening in SBC life-- and share these great things with those wonderfully gifted, talented and called young people who need to hear the GOOD NEWS about what Southern Baptists can do together to change the world and how they are doing it. Use your influence for good. You have the responsibility to do the right thing and help with a generation or two of young people, some of whom are already way skeptical and lacking in discernment. Remember we used to say about our kids-- that our comments about them will be prophetic. We don't call kids names or imply some are smarter or greater than others because some like paint brushes and some rather work with numbers. We don't exaggerate their failures. We don't borrow trouble--and tell them we think they'll end up entirely messed up. instead we act calmy and maturely to lovingly teach, inspire and, yes, correct them. We don't give up on them.
You're a smart man.
Define creative and how that plays out in a number of scenarious. Perhaps you'll see those listed above qualify. Define accountability--and put that into the context of how mentors, teachers and leaders to whose authority we submit can be a very good thing. Define boundaries--explain how even well-intended youthful enthusiasm sometimes comes up with an idea that needs be subject to scriptural parameters. Finally, please, be careful what you wish, or suggest.
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