The title of this post is an abbreviation of a much longer title of a book written in 1638 entitled The Torments of Hell, the Foundation and Pillars Thereof, Searched, Discovered, Shaken and Removed, together with, Infallible Proofs that There Is Not To Be a Punishment After this Life for Any to Endure that Shall Never End.Whew!
And just think, some people think my 28-minute sermons are too long!
Anyway, the author of the book mentioned above is Samuel Richardson (1602-1656), the pastor of the First Particular Baptist Church of London, England. Samuel was one of fifteen Baptist pastors who signed The First London Confession of Faith in 1644, which in my opinion, is the earliest and best Baptist confession of faith. It's earlier than the Presbyterian Westminster Confession, and it is better than the Second London Confession of 1689.
Enough dry history. Now the punch.
Samuel Richardson and other reformed London Baptists during the 18th century did not hold to a belief in the eternal conscious torment of the wicked in hell. They believed in conditional immortality, a view held by many early church fathers as well. Samuel Richardson saw the Scriptures to teach that God's judgment for the wicked meant death. In other words, he believed the wicked perish.
You can read Sammy for yourself.
But for those with a cup of coffee and just a few minutes to read, I will post just five of the twenty infallible proofs that Samuel Richardson gives from Scripture that teach the wicked perish in hell (die) as a result of God’s judgment on their sins. You may be unfamiliar with Samuel Richardson and his views on conditional immortality (as well as Martin Luther, William Tyndale, and others with similar views), but you have to appreciate Samuel Richardson’s high view of Scripture.
Sammy says:
1. The doctrine of eternal punishing is contrary to the Word of God
The doctrine of a punishment never to end is contrary to the word of God, because it maintains
that the wicked shall have eternal life.
If man was to live forever, why was the flaming sword set to keep the way of the tree of life?
Lest he put forth his hand and take of the tree of life, and live forever, Gen. 3:24.
No eternal life came by the first Adam. Eternal life came by Jesus Christ, who is the tree of life.
Eternal life is promised and given by Jesus Christ alone. Eternal life is by Jesus Christ, Rom. 5:21; and, he that eateth of this Bread shall live forever, John 6:58.
Because I live, ye shall live also, John 14:19.
God sent his Son, that we might live through Him, 1 John 4:9.
Only believers have eternal life.
He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, John 3:36.
Whosoever believeth shall not perish, but have everlasting life, John 3:14-15.
I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, John 10:28.
The wicked abide not forever, 1 John 2:17.
If ye live after the flesh ye shall die. Rom 8:13. Him will God destroy, 1 Cor. 3:17.
The preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, 1 Cor. 1:18. 2 Thes. 2:10.
They utterly perish, 2 Pet. 2:12. Luke13:3.
To their own destruction, 2 Pet. 3:16.
They abide in death, Rom. 6:21-23; 1 John 3:14.
They shall be destroyed forever, Psalm 42:7.
2. Even the First Man (Adam) Was Not Created with an Inherently Immortal Body
If Adam had not sinned, he would have died; as appears from the following considerations,
Adam had, in his creation, a natural body, 1 Cor. 15:44: that which is natural is not eternal, I Cor. 15:46.
Adam was of the earth, earthly, I Cor. 15:47-48, therefore mortal and corruptible, I Cor. 15:53-54.
Man in his first being was corporal and visible to be seen; things seen are not eternal. If Adam had stood, he could not have conveyed to us a body immortal, or not dying.
In his Treatise of Heaven, p. 131, Basil says, "If God had given Adam an immortal and unchangeable nature, he had created a god, and not a man."
Augustine, in his Book of Confessions, says, "Because the Lord created man of nothing, therefore he left in man a possibility to return to nothing, if he obeyed not the will of his Maker."
Immortality is not natural to man according to the Scriptures.
3. Christ is not the Author of eternal torment, but the Deliverer from death.
The opinion of a punishment after this life never to end, makes not sin, but Christ, to be the author of the torments of hell and the cause of men's thus suffering.
The Bible states that if Christ had not come, there would have been no resurrection: and if no resurrection, there could be no suffering of any torment after this life; for if there were no resurrection, men would perish in their graves: that would be their end.
If Christ be not risen, they which are fallen asleep are perished, I Cor. 15:17, 18.
That the resurrection came by Jesus Christ is also evident, because Christ says, I am the resurrection, John 11:25.
By man, that is Christ, came the resurrection, 1 Cor. 15:21, therefore, it is called the resurrection of Christ, 1 Pet.3:21.
Christ is called the first fruits, because He first rose from the dead; after Him others. If Christ had not risen, no man should ever have risen from the dead; therefore it is said, they came out of their graves after His resurrection, Matt. 27:53.
And since Christ is the resurrection, and the cause of it, inasmuch as it came by Him, sure none will deny, that if there had been no resurrection of the dead, there could be no suffering after death, so long as God is God; therefore it follows, if any shall so suffer, Christ is the cause of it, for without Him they could not have lived forever, and therefore could not suffer forever.
And is it not very hard and unreasonable, and contrary to the word, to charge Christ to be the cause of their so suffering? Seeing Christ came in love to the world, John 3:16, to save, and not to destroy, Luke 9:56; Luke 19:10.
He came to save sinners, 1 Tim, 1:15. Luke 4:18.
He rose again for our justification.
4. Fear of eternal torment causes a feeble mind and does not produce love for God.
Freedom from fear causes love; love causes service; the love of Christ constraineth; it tends to the comfort of many, who through weakness of faith give way to Satan's temptations. To fear the torments of hell causes a feeble mind; comfort the feeble minded, 1 Thes. 5:4.
It is a comfort to many, whose children and friends die, and leave no testimony of their conversion, to be free from this fear; for the fear that they are to suffer so great and endless torment, hath saddened and troubled the heart of many a parent and friend. God hath said, He will not contend forever, nor be always wroth; for the spirit would fail before him, and the souls he has made, Isa. 62:16.
Man is not able to dwell with everlasting burnings, Isa. 33:14.
To be in so great a torment as they speak of, without end, ease, and refreshment, the spirit must fail, (a small thing will make the spirit fail;) and if so, trine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do, and they sever the brittle thread.
Fathers and mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?
5. Eternal torment is contrary to the revealed nature of God Himself.
Eternal torment does not correspond with the nature of God. God is love, 1 John 4:16.
It is His nature; there is no anger or fury in love; fury is not in me, Isa. 27:4.
God wills us to love our enemies, who abuse, wrong, and hate us; much more will God love his enemies, Luke 6:35.
If God should love only them who love him, do not even the publicans the same? Matt. 5:46.
All that is in God is infinite. God is love; his love, therefore, is infinite, without bounds or limits, though we, in our shallowness and narrowness, have often set bounds and limits to that which is infinite. There never was any beginning in God, therefore no beginning of His love.
The infinite blessed God is one and always the same; l am the Lord, I change not, Malachi 3:6.
This love delights in mercy and love, and not in the eternal torments of hell, or in the punishing of sin; that is, his strange work, Isa. 28:21.
Christ died to answer the law which we transgressed. Christ did not purchase the love of God; He loved us before the world began, and ever will, John 13:1.
God was never destitute of love. Christ saith, Thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me, John 17:23.
At what shall God be angry, or dissatisfied? God was never angry with Christ nor His people, nor at the being of sin, nor at Christ's taking our sins upon Him; for He laid them on him, even the iniquity of us all, Isa. 53:6.
.
It is not suitable to the mercifulness of a father towards his child, of a creator to his creature, the work of his hands, to impose so great a punishment without end, upon any of them: that would be worse than to forsake the works of his hands, and is contrary to Psalm 145:8-9.
Your heavenly Father is merciful, Luke 6:36, rich in mercy, Eph. 2:4.
The Lord is gracious, of great mercy; the Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works. All thy works shall praise thee, and thy saints shall bless thee, Psalm 145:8-10.
He is good to all, he despiseth not any, Job 36:5.
In Summary
Samuel Richardson states, "In reading the Scriptures, we are not to understand any text in such a sense as is not plain in Scripture, or is contrary to Scripture, or contrary to the law of nature, or contrary to the general goodness of God to mankind, or contrary to the gracious spirit and mercifulness of a saint, or contrary to the mind of Christ, which he declared when on earth, or contrary to the fruits of the blessed spirit, the nature of the love, goodness, and mercy of God; or in such a sense as shall tend to contradict or lessen the glory of God, or lessen the greatness and riches of his grace; for it is not to be imagined that God, who is only wise, should do and teach contrary things.
I am sure there is no inconvenience to the gospel, nor any dishonor to God, nor any grief, nor any obstacle to the faith and love of any good man, nor any discouragement to any man in serving God, that there is not to be a punishment for any to endure, that shall never end.
Nothing can be more plain than that which has been said, to anyone who will agree to the truth.
Some will not agree to anything though ever so plain and certain, if it is contrary to the tradition of their fathers: their way is their folly; and their posterity approve their sayings, Psalm 49:13.
Who hath believed our report, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? Isa. 53:1.
Some believed the things that were spoken, and some believed not, Acts 28:24.
They make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn away the just for a thing of naught., Isa. 29:21.
O God the Lord, the strength of my salvation, thou hast covered my head in the day of battle, Psalm 140:7
So be it.”
Conclusion
Samuel Richardson gives a total of 20 infallible proofs from Scripture why eternal torment in hell is not the biblical teaching of God's judgment for the wicked.
My purpose this October 2017, the 500th anniversary celebration of Martin Luther nailing the 95 Theses on the Door of Wittenburg Castle, is to show that many saints of God, erudite men and women who have believed the Bible to be the infallible Word of God, have never believed the Bible teaches eternal torment in hell.
Martin Luther was one.
Samuel Richardson was another.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is immortal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
32 comments:
Brother Wade,
I was glad to see this subsequent post on the issue. Thank you again for the time and effort you put into these provocative messages.
I was glad to see the post arrive, but I was disappointed that the proposition by you, Luther, Richardson, and others mentioned who have a common conclusion on this matter was not more substantive because:
1. The proposals seem to be based on such weak premises which are terrifically susceptible
to their being disputed by Scripture.
2. There seems to be minimal basis for your proposition in comparison to the huge amount of
support for the contrary.
3. To my view, this proposition seems to inaccurately assess the values and perspective of
God as portrayed in the comprehensive context of His Word.
One thing that I am learning as you teach me more about these historic "experts: and their ideologies, like Luther, is, they are not as smart as I had thought they were. I am glad I have not invested a lot of time studying their writings and certainly am not motivated to do so based on this insight you have given us.
I know you realize that I certainly do not want to suggest that I am right and you and everyone with a different view are wrong, rather to say that I have a different opinion.
I promised beforehand not to hijack the responses so I will not say more, but do look forward to comments by others and your response to them.
RRR,
Appreciate your comment. I’m unfamiliar with the “huge amount” of support to the contrary. I will be addressing the two texts that seem to imply at first glance eternal “torment,” and will address those. The preponderance of Scriptures speaks of death, destruction, and perishing.
For example:
“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosever believes in Him should not PERISH but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).
Great! I am going to try to have a mind and heart open to new gems of insight!
Wade,
I noticed you quoted (John 3:16) from King James…”SHOULD NOT perish.”
This interpretation means a person that believed in Jesus could possible perish.
The NLT is more accurate: “For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”
Good post Wade. Interestingly I have always wondered, even as a young girl, reading scripture in the KJV as that was about the only translation available, if there was torment and based it on the same scripture you have given.
I couldn't believe in a hell fire and brimstone. Maybe I was more in tune than I thought?
It seems we have the same teachings passed from generation to generation without checking to see if this traditional teaching is true to the scriptures. That's why I think this generation of young people is good in questioning some of the traditional Baptist teaching, although the idea of ceasing to exist is even scarier than torment isn't it?
Rex,
Good point - "will not perish" - is definitely preferred.
Debbie,
"It seems we have the same teachings passed from generation to generation to see if this traditional teaching is true to the Scriptures."
Amen!
Debbie,
I hope you have not previously committed your position on Scripture interpretation based on what was passed on to you by others without examining and searching yourself to form your conclusions. Are your ears being tickled by someone's proclamation that the ancient teachings of Luther and others are now new and contemporary? Is it attractive because it boldly challenges views that dramatically propose a more radical and extreme assessment of God's standards? Sounds to me like the proposition being made in the post is based much on the tradition of Luther, Richardson and other historic "traditional" teachings. Hope you're not rushing to commit to that.
Also, it seems a bit presumptuous on yours and Wade's part, to propose that those of us who hold to a position contrary to the "traditional" view portrayed in this post are simply blind, submissive sheep feeding upon whatever gruel is fed to us by our teachers and "passed down from generation to generation".
Just what is the "tradition" passed on from generation to generation? Yours or mine?
Wade,
On the subject when a person dies; are they in the grave, hell, or heaven?
Have you ever talked to someone who was dead for a while and then came back to life?
Doctors told a wife, “He is alive again but is trying to die and he will if you can’t convince him to live.”
“Please stay with us. I love you. The children love you. They need a father.”
He stopped trying to die.
Years later (on a mission trip) we talked with him. He told of seeing his body on a operating table and things that happened before he felt himself floating. He became excited as he recounted sights and beautiful music; “I’ll never forget the feeling of being loved.”
There is Scripture that says one thing and then another.
“The earth never changes. The sun rises and the sun sets, then hurries around to rise again.” (Ecclesiastes 1:5)
Based on this Scripture, Catholic doctrine believed the Sun traveled around the earth. In 1992 a newspaper said the Pope gave permission to believe otherwise.
Jesus said: “But now, as to whether the dead will be raised—haven’t you ever read about this in the writing of Moses, in the story of the burning bush? Long after Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob had died, God said to Moses, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. So he is the God of the Living, not the dead…” (Mark 12:26-27 NLT)
Rex,
I am quite familiar with out-of-body experiences. I would never doubt or question someone's experience, telling them "It didn't happen." It did - to them. But I would caution people who experienced one to be humble about it, like Paul, who said, "Whether I was in the body or out of the body, in a vision or really there, only God knows." I am reminded of Eutychus, who while listening to Paul preach fell asleep, fell out the window, and died. When the Spirit restored life to him, the early believers went back upstairs and continued listening to Paul. Were Eutychus alive today, he'd probably write a bestselling book on his "out-of-body experience." The early believers listened to the God of the living, not the dead. :)
RRR: This is one of those topics that it doesn't matter. Faith in Christ is the one thing I don't think we can disagree on and would be of the importance you seemingly place on the doctrine of hell.
Yes, I do put stock in what I have written above based on my reading of the Bible but does it matter? Just like end time doctrine, or anything after life, no one can really know for sure until death can we? We can simply go by the pale interpretation of the Bible.
I do know this for sure, Christ is the answer to eternal life. He died on the cross, rose again and is coming back someday.
So it's not heresy to have differing views on hell or end times. Two doctrines I think Baptists have put to much time and energy in, although thankfully that has changed.
Debbie, Thanks for sharing your views on this. We all would agree that the most important, monumental, thing in God's Word is the message of redemption through Jesus Christ alone, but to say that doctrinal debates and coming to the best understanding of these doctrines is unimportant is a pretty scary thing to say, unless we are not teaching and ministering to others, which I am sure does not apply to your case, as it does not apply to mine.
Why This Is Terrifically Important:
1. There are hundreds of cults out there professing to be Christian who have so distorted The Word of God as to force them to create their own versions of The Bible so as to be consistent with the heretical teachings they are proclaiming and propagating. In addition to saying that Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, they teach aggressively that the soul stays in the ground until He returns, that there was no resurrection, that believers will not go to heaven, some say that they will be gods themselves.
We true followers of Christ better know what we believe about all doctrine, why we believe it and have a substantive Scriptural basis for what we believe. We better boldly challenge those who distort doctrine and the most important values and truths in The Word. Not to do so, to be complacent, to neglect the study and of The Word and the struggle to ascertain the most credible position on these doctrines is to fail in total service to our Lord and obedience to His command to "go and make disciples". We are required to teach sound doctrine.
2. I am sure you have had occasion to minister to those whose loved ones have passed away. They always have questions whether expressed or non-expressed, about where their loved one went, where they are going when they die. Hopefully, you have lived your life in such a way as to be presumed to be a learned follower of Jesus Christ. When they ask us, assuming that we take the study of God's Word seriously, and sometimes assuming that we are ministers who should know, we need to respond with credible answers that are revealed from The Word of God, not simply respond with some meaningless rhetoric that we think sounds good or certainly not by responding, "Oh, that's not important." Are you kidding me? It is terrifically important to them and should therefore be so to us.
3. God reveals these truths for the very purpose of giving us assurance, equipping us to teach and minister. Of course, it is important. If it is not readily understandable or clear, then it justifies our study, comparison with His other revelations and dialogue with other believers to glean truths from them which we may not have considered previously. I am sure that this is the reason Wade uses so much energy, prayer, effort and hours of his time to share these valuable thoughts and understandings with us. It is why he publishes them publicly on a forum that encourages challenges, debate and progression in our spiritual growth. He KNOWS it is important for him and for us to consider.
I understand if you don't want to discuss it for some unexplained reason, but I do not understand why you would shrug it off by saying, "It is not important."
Wade,
Thanks for your blog on Conditional Immortality..I may have mentioned before your alignment with John Stott on this topic, He was very clear on the meaning of perish in Jn 3: 16 in expressing eternal life as exclusively the inheritance of those who believe in Christ.
Incidentally.. on your point about 500yr celebration of Luthers break with Rome.. I think you should perhaps make distinction as D'Aubigne does between Reformation in Europe and Reformation in England.. Ours was political more than Religious ..Henry 8th saw to that and God used that to reform the church in England, which never really embraced the Lutherans .Scotland and John Knox were more akin to Europe as the Presbyterian church was and is more prevalent in Scotland than in England..probably another reason why Calvin's Theology was embraced by English baptists like Ch Spurgeon etc...
George,
Superb point - I shall make that distinction in the future!
I also as a child (and adult) could not see how the wages of sin being death equaled eternal conscious torment. It simply isn't what the Bible teaches. Torment? Yes, it is there. But nowhere I can find is it said to be eternal.
I agree: without the Savior you get annihilated. As a hopeful, not dogmatic, universalist I HOPE everyone repents and accepts Christ either in life or the dying process. But unlike a dogmatic universalist, I can also see in the scripture the option of STILL rejecting Him. Anyone that rebellious would be annihilated. If there are any. But I HOPE there are not.
Linda
Linda,
I have friends who are hopeful universal reconciliationists (like you and Paul Young).
Most of my friends believe in eternal conscious torment.
A growing number of friends hold to conditional immortality.
My whole purpose is to get all my friends to talk respectfully instead of teaching dogmatically - at least on this subject.
There's room for disagreement and debate among believers.
"My whole purpose is to get all my friends to talk respectfully instead of teaching dogmatically - at least on this subject.:
Wade, I do know that you encourage dialogue and are always graciously open to others offering their opinions on things even when it does not align with yours. Thank you for that.
Still, you are a "teacher" and you fill that role as you "teach" on these posts and your position on matters almost always comes through. It is not like you simply present the concepts to others, but you do identify with positions that you have owned, so to speak.
Point being, your blog is not simply an "information resource" site, but a "teaching" site. As such, it is apparent that you do more than providing discussion for debate. You have considerable influence over many of your blog followers who tend to assume the views to which you ascribe. In that regard, I know you always assume responsibility for leading students to accept the views you have, which is a terrific responsibility, as James said in Chapter 3:1 "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers and sisters, because you know that we will be judged more strictly."
RRR,
Your referenced the words of James that indicate he was a teacher of religion: “…we who teach… (James 3:1)
It’s obvious he didn’t know his Brother had a dim view of religious teachers:
“Jesus also taught: “Beware of these teachers of religious law!” (Mark 12:38)
Rex Ray,
Was there ever a more powerful, insightful, knowledgeable of God's Kingdom and its work-"teacher", than Jesus Christ?
Plus, Jesus obvious had a very favorable view of "teachers" given that He commanded you and I, and Wade, to go, "teaching them to observe all things I have commanded you". I think James understood his assignment, don't you?
Jesus couldn't stomach those hypocrites who "teach" others what they are supposed to do while living like devils themselves.
Debbie,
I became a Christian 41 years ago. I would like to respond by saying that the plan of God from even before the creation of all things has been centered on the finished work of Christ on the Cross. Therefore, the doctrine of our eternity is by far the most important doctrine for us to understand.
I would like to share with you an article that I wrote approximately 3 years ago. Because of the magnitude of this doctrine, it is the longest article that I have ever written.
.......... What is the “GOOD NEWS” of the Gospel of Christ? ..........
(Re-examining the widely held belief of “eternal torment” in “Hellfire”)
If you or anyone else would like a copy of this article, I would be more than happy to e-mail a copy of this article.
(candy33alan@aol.com)
RRR,
This is a follow up about Jesus saying: “Beware of these teachers of religious law!” and me implying that James was who Jesus was referring to.
Acts 15 is a record of the first Church Council in deciding how Gentiles were saved. The two beliefs were ‘Jesus plus something’ and ‘Jesus plus nothing’.
Christian Pharisees expressed ‘Jesus plus something’
“Some of the believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and insisted, “The Gentile converts must be circumcised and required to follow the law of Moses.” (Verse 5)
Peter expressed ‘Jesus plus nothing’
“Why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke…We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.” (Verses 10-11)
James’ judgment expressed ’double talk’ (should not; but should)
“Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble [no circumcision] those Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.” (Verses19-20)
James’ reasoning was tradition
“For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.” (Verse 21)
James said, “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these few requirements.” (Verse 28)
Horrors! Did the Holy Spirit disagree with God? Peter said burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke would be challenging God.
RRR,
I believe the worst hatred in the world is ‘religious hatred’. With that in mind, see what Paul was referring to: “…I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.” (2 Timothy 4:16 KJ)
Where was the event? “The first time I was brought before the judge…” (2 Timothy 4:16 NLT)
Who was Paul referring to? “…no man stood with me…” (2 Timothy 4:16 KJ)
James and elders lead Paul to believe his life was in danger: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe, and they are all zealous of the law.” “…the Jewish believers have been told that you are teaching all the Jews…to turn their backs on the laws of Moses…you teach them not to circumcise their children or follow other Jewish customs…What should WE do? They will certainly hear that you have come. Here’s what WE want you to do. WE have four men here …Go with them to the Temple…Then everyone will know…you observe the Jewish laws.” (Acts 21:20-24)
They sent Paul to the Temple where Jewish leaders were! Did they know the Holy Spirit said Jewish leaders would turn Paul over to Gentiles in Acts 21:11?
“…Ananias, the high priest…and lawyer, Tertullus, presented their case against Paul to the governor…he was trying to desecrate the Temple when we arrested him.” (Acts 24:1-7)
Just as the husband of Bathsheba was murdered by no support, James and the elders did not support Paul at his trial. I’m sure Paul wondered why they were not there, but after his ’brothers’ had not visited him for years, he knew. I believe Paul repeated the prayer that Stephen prayed because the same crime had been done. “…The time of my death is near.” (2 Timothy 4:6) Paul died in a Roman prison, but the guilt of his death was on those who put him there.
With Paul out of the way, the powers that be (zealous for the law) caused a split in the church by baptizing babies for salvation in 251 A.D. The group that was against it were named "Anabaptist". In 313 A.D. the 'baptizing baby group' were named Catholic.
I'm curious to understand how this view lines up with Luke 16:19-27, the parable or story of the rich man who dies and goes to Hades, in torment and asks for relief of his anguish. I understand it is an illustrative story; however, it one that Jesus uses directly. Why would He fabricate an example of an afterlife that doesn't exist?
“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’"
It appears I commented too soon - I just found two other articles on your site that explained this further.
Thank you for stretching my mind today.
“WOW,” I was taught and believed that multitudes upon multitudes of humans will suffer “eternal torment” for 100 trillion years, and then another 100 trillion years, and then another 100 trillion years, and it goes on and on with no hope of it ever ending.
I am certain that each one of us, deep inside of our very being, know that something just does not add up concerning this picture, but we just can't quite figure out what is it that we are not understanding correctly.
The true biblical teaching is neither the traditional Christian view of hell, nor the view of annihilation. Our great God is neither a great torturer nor a great annihilator, but He is the great Saviour of the world.
The mystery of the finished work of Christ on the Cross will one day reveal the perfect plan of God for the entire human race, which does not include “eternal torment” or “eternal annihilation” for one single person!
I have written upon this topic, but it is much too lengthy to post on this site. Below is a sample. If anyone would like a copy in it's original Word Document Format, feel free to e-mail me and request a copy, and I will e-mail you a copy.
candy33alan@aol.com
………. What is the “GOOD NEWS” of the Gospel of Christ? ……….
(Re-examining the widely held belief of “eternal torment” in “Hellfire”)
There are some Biblical topics which in order to get a better and clearer understanding of, require a lengthy Biblical explanation. This Biblical topic is certainly one of them. After all, there is certainly NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT than “our eternal purpose” & “our eternal destination!” Therefore, it is of the utmost importance for us to have a better and clearer Biblical understanding concerning this most important topic.
My purpose for this writing is to Biblically “expound” upon (1) is there really going to be “eternal torment?” (2) is there really going to be “eternal annihilation?” (3) to give a Biblical answer to the question “If there is no “eternal torment,” and if there is no “eternal annihilation” of our very being, then what are we being saved from, and what is our being here during this present time on earth really all about?”
I was a Christian for 38 years before the Lord opened up my Spiritual understanding to see more clearly some Biblical truths that I had not properly understood in regards to the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
Very late to this post -- only began reading your 'blog after the PP news became really prominent a few weeks ago.
What a breath of fresh air! Thank you for this post.
From very early in my life as a believer, I was infernalist, not so much by choice or my own study but as a side-effect of what was threatened at me from pulpits and in revivals. I had been attracted to Jesus on account of the beauty of His character as portrayed in the Gospels. The fear factor that was impressed on me (in an independent baptist revival) sort of cemented things.
But it was also a sour note.
A few thoughts that may be useful:
As long as infernalism prevails in the churches and is conceived of as the reason that the Gospel is "Good News", it may be necessary to persuade people of the reality of ECT before they are able to perceive the relevance to their lives of the message of Jesus. Do you have to believe in ECT in order to believe in Jesus? If you do and if the reality of ECT is why the Gospel is "good news" (ECT being the more fundamental truth), so that we have to persuade people of the reality of ECT, then are we not actually "ECTangelical?" We are first the bearers of "bad news" and only then also the proclaimers of "good news".
At a practical level, I worry that evangelistic practice that uses as its recruiting "hook" the total priority of the individual benefit of avoiding future punishments becomes less and less effective as belief in post-mortem punishments fades from the population outside the churches. And to the extent that this "hook" is still effective, I worry that it has negative effects later in the believer's life. I think that people tend to continue in faith the way they began; to begin one's life as a believer on the basis of enlightened self-interest may predispose them to view the life of faith through that same lens, which creates a tension with so many of Jesus' commands.
Of course, the most important question is simply "is ECT actually taught in Scripture?", which is the subject of your 'blog post.
Again, thank you for this refreshing post.
My name is Alan Finch. I became a Christian 42 years ago.
It is important to understand that the Lake of Fire is not a physical Lake of Fire. The Biblical phrase “Lake of Fire” is symbolic for a Spiritual Lake of Fire which is representative of the FIRE of God’s Spirit that is going to do a transforming work of “Divine Purification” in each individual that comes before the Great White Throne Judgment. This transforming work from God’s Spirit will give these individuals a full understanding of God’s Boundless Love for them and the entire human race. (Note: The Scriptures do not reveal how long that this process will take)
I have written a 26 page article that Biblically deals with this subject extensively. If anyone would like a copy, feel free to e-mail me and ask for a copy, and I will e-mail you a copy.
Candy33alan@aol.com
Samuel Richardson's book "The Doctrine of eternal heel torments overthrown" I have it and agree with most of it. His articles on Justification by Christ's faith is the best article ever written on that subject and I have read tons of them I been in the faith for almost fifty years~like Samuel Richardson I'm a particular Baptist IF a name had to be given to me, which I prefer not, but not ashamed of it either.
Like all doctrines, each side has its problem texts that each must address before their position can be firmly supported by God's testimony. Endless torment of the wicked has too many holes in that fortress of faith to address and still maintain that position.
I'm working on an outline as I speak on this very subject which I trust to soon be finished with it.
dwredbaker@bellsouth.net Or, one can go to Mountain Retreat forum where that subject is being debated as we speak. Also on http://www.gracecentered.com/christian_forums/index.php it is at times debated I'm Red on the first forum and RB on the second forum.
I was saved when I was 8 years old some 50 plus years ago. I have no doubt that I will end up in Heaven when my time is over. I have struggled with the concept of hell since I was a kid. This has been a most painful struggle and one that has taken me to the brink of giving up on my Christian faith altogether.
I have finally made peace with God over this. I just do not believe that a loving Christ would damn one to hell. I feel that in the end we will all make amends with the Lord and will be made right to enter Heaven with our Lord. This has brought peace to me and my soul and assures me that God is in control and not over zealous right wing people who would cast me aside into an eternity of hell and torment. I do believe in the end we will make it right with Jesus. Some who preach an eternity of hell and torment suck the joy out of salvation for all of God's children. It is time for Love to take over the hate and pain that some cause in the name of Jesus our lord.
I got to your blog looking for this topic. I see your sermons every week at TWW. After years of being a believer I have been convinced first by Edward Fudge's book on hell and then just by studying the Bible. Didn't know about Sammy!
It's contrary to mainstream Christianity but the Word is clear once one takes off traditional blinders off.
Thanks for your most interesting blog.
No, Debbie.
There is peace in eternal death, just not life (you would just be gone, not burning in fire or conscious of darkness for eternity).
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