"And there was a prophet named Anna ... a widow of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day ... and she continued to ἐλάλει of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem" (Luke 2:36-38 NAS).
I have used the Greek verb ἐλάλει in quoting the text above without translation. Before I show you how this word is used throughout the New Testament, let me remind you of a few things to set the context of this very important text. I believe the Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God, and our beliefs and behavior should reflect the biblical standard.
(1). The gospel writer Luke is describing the first public appearance of Jesus Christ (the Anointed One) in the Temple of Jerusalem.
(2). The law of first mention makes this verse vitally important in showing how Christ is to be revealed to people.
(3). Simeon has already preached a stirring proclamation of Christ to all (see Luke 2:34-36).
(4). Anna now takes center stage and ἐλάλει of Christ to all.
The word ἐλάλει is used throughout the New Testament. This word is used of Jesus in Mark 2:2 where he "preached the word" (KJV) in Capernaum. This word is translated "stating the matter plainly" in Mark 8:32 (NAS). It is most often used of Jesus when he "speaks" to His disciples for the purpose of instruction. This word conveys in its etymology and essence: "To speak for the purpose of teaching."
Anna taught the people of the Temple. She didn't teach just women. She taught all. Anna had no "covering" over her, such as a husband, because she had her authority from God. She was gifted and inspired by the Spirit, enraptured and enthralled by the Savior, and moved by need of the people. Again, Anna needed no covering from any man because she had her calling from God. Anna preached Christ. Sure, there would have been men who refused to listen or who walked out as she spoke of Christ. These would have been the rabbinical and Temple leaders who "were not looking for the redemption of Jerusalem," but believers--both men and women--welcomed her teaching them.
To be honest, I am stupified by John Piper, Don Carson, and others who add to Scripture and try to impose on women restrictions that are nowhere found in the New Testament. What puzzles me is how the clear and direct teaching of the entire New Testament is seemingly ignored in the minds of these men. The only explanation I can find is that their errant interpretation of one passage of Scripture (I Timothy 2:11-15) leads them to deny the infallible text of Scripture. If you count yourself as one who is confused by what seems to be a contradiction of the entire New Testament by this Timothy passage, then I would urge you to print off and study carefully a blog I posted years ago entitled Are the Sisters Free to Function? I think this article will help you see the error of interpreting Paul to mean something that is contrary to the rest of the New Testament, and to the very thing Anna actually did in the Temple. I wonder if patriarchalism, disguised by the modern misnomer "complementarianism," is actually a hindrence to the gospel; particularly when its advocates are denying the clear teachings of the New Testament.
This weekend we are interviewing a delightful woman for a pastoral position at Emmanuel. Our Leadership Team is moving the position that my assistant held (she is retiring) from the secretarial pool into a ministry position. The person we are interviewing is a M.Div graduate from Dallas Theological Seminary and their "star student" according to the professors to whom I spoke. If she becomes part of the pastoral staff at Emmanuel, she will join two other smart, competent women who will form our pastoral team of ten. I am grateful to be among Christian people in Enid who--had we been in the Temple when Anna began to ἐλάλει of Christ-- would not feel the need *"to pull a Piper."
One of these days male leaders in the Bible-believing community will take for granted that the New Testament teaches the Spirit empowers people to serve based on the His giftings and not gender. One of these days the idea that the Spirit withholds certain gifts because of gender will be rendered as unbiblical and unhealthy as the ancient notion that certain people ought to be slaves because of color. Equating women teaching men about Christ (something Anna did) to same-sex sexual activity, and then calling both activities "sin," renders powerless the very definition of sin. Sin is any transgression of the law of God (I John 3:4). It is clear from Luke 2 that when the Lord first appeared the Temple, one of the persons who preached of Him to the men and women present was a woman. Why do we call "sin" the very thing God uses to bring honor to Christ? It's about time we Christians lived our lives in accordance to the standards of Scripture and not according to the traditions of men.
(*The phrase "to pull a Piper" means "to so focus on gender that one misses Christ.")
114 comments:
Your beef with Piper comes across meatier than your word study. We all know words have a range of meaning, and the lexicons I just consulted make laleo about as significant as the English word "speak."
Yes, people "speak" in different contexts, but just because that's the word chosen for a particular context doesn't mean the verb itself now carries the weight of that context into other areas. To whit, just because Jesus lalei/speaks to his disciples to teach them doesn't mean Anna lalei/speaks as a Rabbinic teacher.
Anna elalei/was speaking to everyone about Christ - which, according to the law you bring up, would more fittingly give legs to the idea that we ought to be free witnesses of the Messiah rather than extrapolate from this verse any particular instruction about gender roles (one way or the other). (Or to put it another way, your introduction of the law here is a total red herring.)
I don't have a dog in this fight; I can count on one hand the number of comments I've made on blogs about gender roles, but Greek shouldn't be misused. For further study, I highly recommend Bill Mounce's blog posts on his personal site (billmounce.com) and his business site (teknia.com).
Ryan,
My beef with Piper is on the subject of women. On everything else, I actually enjoy reading and listening to Piper. His view of women, however, minimizes his effectiveness with the gospel. Also, "to speak of Christ" is the same thing as "to proclaim Him," to "preach" (KJV) Him, etc... When I preach, I speak. It seems to me that your distinction between preach and speak is artificial, and if there is any misuse of Greek, it may be on your end. :)
Thanks for your comment.
Wade
Ryan,
You seem to not comprehend that you are actually proving Wade's point. To act as if there are male"rabbis" in Christianity like there were in the Jewish Old Covenant is a contradiction of the teachings of Christ and the New Covenant.
Wade, I recently viewed the historical drama "AGORA". The movie revolves around the life of Hypatia, a female teacher and scholar. Without revealing too much of the plot, it would seem many within church leadership today could have easily been cast as the antagonist in the movie.
Steve G.
Steve,
I have heard of the film. I have not seen it, but upon your recommendation will do so.
Our Lord's mother Mary,
whom He honored as mother and as woman, once said at Cana:
“Do whatever He tells you.”
The Church has tried for millenia to follow her teaching.
What the gender restrictionists do is try to claim that some very unclear and debateable passages are clear and are also for all times and places. This is a horrible interpretation method and it does damage to the witness of Christ. Atheists then get to cherry pick from a host of outrageous claims (about gender in this case), to attempt to sway others that belief in Jesus itself is outrageous. In this area Piper, etc. need to repent, just like he repented of his racism, he needs to repent of his sexism. Instead, we see him entrenching.
Don Johnson,
Could not have articulated the problem better.
I've watched the video. It's horrible - and I'm a man. I dread to think what women will make of it, especially those women who are gifted and called by God to preach, teach, and even lead churches.
I see TGC's approach as basically the same as the slavers of years gone by. A group of people interpreting the Bible in such a way as to perpetuate their own vested interests (and oppressive practices). I bet a desire to keep women out of their cosy little club has deeply affected (possibly on a subconcious level) the way they understand the Bible.
Wade, thanks for speaking out against this. The church would be in a far better state if there were more people like you around.
IMO the 2000 BF&M's position on women is not Biblical, it is a man made position twisting the scriptures to support their preconceived position. The men who rammed this into the 2000 BF&M should be ashamed of themselves. Instead of improving the SBC all it has done is create division even to this day with associational DOM's trying to enforce the 2000 BF&M on churches in their associations who do not even know what is in the 2000 BF&M but it causes division in the related associations.
Thank you, Wade! I emailed you awhile back about a dream the Lord gave me many years ago about women being free to serve. I prayed that he would allow me to live until I saw it come to pass. Bless you for your part in it's fulfillment.
Mary Ann
Wade,
So spot on!
Peer pressure is very powerful.
Aussie John:
As we know for folks like Wade to speak the truth comes with a high cost.
I did not think I would ever see the days in the SBC where you must be of one mind--the one the powers to be tell you to have or else.
Tom,
You are correct that there is a high price to pay. That's why people who care nothing for what a denomination can give (titles, speaking engagments, positions, etc...) can speak the truth truly freely! :)
Wade:
You said to me:"You are correct that there is a high price to pay. That's why people who care nothing for what a denomination can give (titles, speaking engagments, positions, etc...) can speak the truth truly freely! :)"
I would quickly add--we must speak up regardless of the cost!!
I was brought up Assemblies of God where woman preachers and pastors were allowed. It seemed normal to me as a kid. When I got older and migrated away from pentecostal theology toward those who were mainstream evangelical (but not dispensationalists), it seemed that most had a theology of gender inequality in ministry. I struggled with this. Your post has helped me see that you can be mainstream evangelical and yet believe that God gives his Spirit (fruit and gifts) equally to men and women as many Scriptures make clear. Thank you
I find it rather interesting that the historically first Christologian (theologian articulating the concepts of the actually arriving Messiah) was Mary, his mother. See the Magnificat in Luke 1:46-55. The proclamation of Mary was Christologically rich and cannot be easily dismissed as merely an emotional devotional with no doctrinal content. She was teaching something.
While it was first one woman teaching one woman, at some point this had to cross the gender divide and Mary (or Elizabeth) had to communicate the content to some male. Luke may have been the first or he may have been conveying something circulating in the church.
A speculative scenario. How many Baptist pastors would allow Mary, the mother of our Savior, to proclaim this doctrinal testimony from the platform?
A speculative scenario. How many Baptist pastors would allow Mary, the mother of our Savior, to proclaim this doctrinal testimony from the platform?
Answer:
If Mary is married to a SBC Mega Church Pastor, then she will be allowed. Or if she is married to SBC Mega Stars, she will be allowed. All the others will have to pretend to be quiet and submissive on stage.
I should also add that wives of SBC Mega Church Pastors, get appointed to cushy jobs as trustees in lots of SBC offices and they do get to speak and lecture men and women.
Thy Peace,
You make me laugh! :)
The ultimate irony is that NO WHERE in the OT is there a prohibition on women teaching or leading men. If so, then Deborah was in sin. Instead we see something else entirely.
Now we are exepected to believe there is a NEW law in the New Covenant against women teaching or leading men.
Methinks they are misunderstanding Paul....on purpose when it comes to authenteo.
Lydia
Tom,
I think you have misunderstood me, or, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
It was the complimentarians that I was referring to when I mentioned "peer pressure, NOT Wade.
I, and my family are well aware of the cost of which you speak!
It's really interesting to me that often when I'm in the middle of reading/studying some issue, you post something right along those same lines.
Just yesterday I was sharing with my husband about the book I'm reading by Scot McKinght "The Blue Paraket". It goes right along with what you're saying.
We were talking about women's roles and all the examples in the Bible like Deborah, Junia, Priscilla, Phoebe, Mary, etc. Why are these conveniently forgotten?
Where we work in Asia...it is most often the women who step out and lead the groups...the men are few.
It feels like there are so many tensions within the western church....things which distract from what our real purpose in life should be, "to know God and make Him known".
I told my husband that if things continue this way in the American church, then I don't want my girls in any way participating in churches with these attitudes towards women. Unfortunately, the BFM seems to perpetuate the problem....
Anyway, thanks so much for sharing this. I plan to show my girls your articles on women and ministry as they get older....it is encouraging to me and I hope it will be to them as well.
Blessings,
J
Wade,
Would you allow women to preach from your pulpit?
Would you support the idea of women's ordination?
Do you believe a woman can serve as the senior pastor of a church?
If no to any of these questions, then why not?
Yes. Women speak from the platform all the time. We have no "pulpit" - there is not even a portable podium. People stand and speak.
If you are asking "can a woman serve as Senior Pastor" at the church I pastor, the answer is, "last time I looked I was a man." Laughing. If you mean at other churches, women are already doing it in other churches.
I do not believe "ordination" is New Testament or biblical.
With regard to whether Mary could give testimony about Jesus in a Baptist church I think this might be the response of a first century Southern Baptist pastor:
"I don't care if she's the Theotokos, she won't be talking in my church."
If it is biblical for women to be called senior pastor pastoring a church?
How come there are no women called senior pastor pastoring a church in the bible?
Really appreciated this. Too many churches try to close women's ears to God's call.
Also, Thy Peace's comment was spot on. A different set of rules seem to apply to SBC elites' and seminary presidents' wives. Someone should really scrutinize the denominational welfare that flows to some of them.
A lot of Save OBU supporters will appreciate this insightful blot post.
Blest: Is there a reference for male "senior pastors" in the Bible?
Blest,
What Julie Anne said. :)
David,
Good one. I laughed out loud. :)
Wade,
Love your site.
Question: we just began visiting a church in our town where the ministers are seeking and working toward a PhD at Southern. May I assume that they buy into complementarian views short of asking them and then getting an earful? If they do, will move on quietly.
Your take?
Thank you,
Wade and Julie Anne: You both ask an excellent question. Thank you.
The answer to your question is a resounding no.
You are correct. There is no reference for “males” being called "senior pastors" in the bible. And there is no reference for “females” being called “senior pastors” in the bible.
Then why do so many say or imply that someone male or female being called “pastor” or calling themself “pastor” is okay if it is not in the bible?
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a male to call himself pastor?
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a female to call herself pastor?
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a congregation to hire a male pastor?
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a congregation to hire a female pastor?
Doesn’t the word “biblical” refer to something that is in the bible? If no one is called pastor or calls themself pastor in the bible why do so many separate themselves and lift themselves over others by calling themself pastor?
If no one calls themself pastor in the bible? Why do so many male and female say they are called to be a “pastor” when no one in the bible was called to be a pastor?
Sorry I have many many questions. Most of what I see today about pastors is not in the bible.
I do not think Anna is represented in the image used in this post. The source of the image: Wiki > Presentation at the Temple (Bellini).
Reading your post on Anna has made my day. It is excellent!!! Anna and Hulda, the OT prophet we don't like to talk about much, have met with much the same treatment over the years. Swidler, p. 1783)states about Hulda: “The authority to pass judgment on this initial entry into the canon was given to a woman. At the beginning of the Bible we find Huldah; in her we discover the first scripture authority. . . How could we have lost sight of her all these years”. And then centuries later, we come to Anna. "And there was a prophet named Anna ... a widow of eighty-four. She never left the temple, serving night and day ... and she continued to ἐλάλει of Him to all those who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem" (Luke 2:36-38 NAS)." I am part of the Churches of Christ, a fellowship that has started struggling with gender inclusion and equality in the past several years, and I have never heard sermons or teaching in the churches I have been apart of tell about Hulda and Anna, and their importance in Scripture. They are normally minimalized at best.
Anonymous,
In my experience one should not take for granted or assume anything about anyone. Though a Ph.D. is being pursued from Southern, it is possible your pastor takes a differing position from Southern's leadership. Ask him. I would hate for you guys to quietly move on without giving your pastor a chance to respond to your questions.
Thanks for your comment.
Wiley,
Great comment. Thanks for writing and my thoughts and prayers are with you.
Thy Peace,
As always, thanks for your assistance. Once again, you are correct. One of these days I want my wife and me to take you out for dinner! Anytime you are CLOSE to Enid (within 250 miles), let me know. We will drive to meet you. You are an inspiration to me.
Blest,
What an excellent comment. Let me do my best to answer your questions:
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a male to call himself pastor?
The word pastor is a "verb" not a noun. In other words, one who pastors is one who oversees, who strengthens other spiritually, who shepherd the flock of God. Pastor is a calling of service not a title of significance.
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a female to call herself pastor?
A church who hires someone to "watch over the flock" is paid to serve as an overseer. If I tell people that I "pastor," I am telling them how I serve. I have no problem with churches seeing men and women as servants who are employees of the church--even though it MAY be extrabiblical, I don't think it is ANTI-biblical to pay someone to shepherd (contrary to some denominations who refuse to pay people who shepherd).
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a congregation to hire a male pastor?
See above. It may not be "biblical," but it is not necessarily anti-biblical. Meaning, I think there is freedom either way--to have pastors who volunteer their time to shepherd, and pastors who are paid to pastor. I would much to prefer to VOLUNTEER, but unfortunately, the size of our church requires someone who is committed to it vocationally.
Would it then be proper to say “it is not biblical” for a congregation to hire a female pastor?
See above.
Doesn’t the word “biblical” refer to something that is in the bible? If no one is called pastor or calls themself pastor in the bible why do so many separate themselves and lift themselves over others by calling themself pastor?
Bingo! I wholeheartedly agree! We are all "priests" unto God, and any man (or woman) who haughtily seek to exert "authority" over other people are unqualified to be considered as shepherds of peoples' souls.
If no one calls themself pastor in the bible? Why do so many male and female say they are called to be a “pastor” when no one in the bible was called to be a pastor?
Again, when one sees pastoring as a verb and not necessarily a noun (or office), then the verbs in the New Testament make sense. Some people have been gifted by the Spirit to teach, to oversee, to encourage, to prophesy, to serve, etc....
Too many pastors see themselves as professionals. We are not. We are graced and gifted to serve others.
Wade, thanks for your kind words and offer. I will be soon moving back to India (Hyderabad, AP) in a month or so. If we do not meet in earth, then we will surely meet in heaven. Your teachings of Christ have been very eye opening and refreshing to the heart. The Message of Christ rings very loud. What a Message!
Bless you, Wade!
I keep coming back to this....my grandmother who was born in 1894 taught an adult Sunday school class in a Baptist church for nearly 50 years. She was such a student of the word that often the pastors would come to her home to talk theology with her. i grew up with this whole concept of women being just as apt to teach as men. Then along came the Danvers Statement, which they even admit was written in reation to their cultural concerns, and all the rules have changed. So I ask myself, "why the need for these labels?" It seems to be everything was fine before these people came along and tried to identify a problem so they could offer their solutions to fix it!
Another though occurred to me today. It's not as if we're to sit and listen to a teacher and just automatically buy whatever he says, as long as he's a man. Baptists, particularly, ascribe to the priesthood of the believer, and we are responsible for what we believe. IF a teacher speaks the truth to us, we learn from it. I don't care the gender involved. But woe bu unto me if I differentiate in the credibility I grant someone just because they happen to be a man.
Might that be a form of benign (maybe) idolatry?
thatmom:
You said:"So I ask myself, "why the need for these labels?" It seems to be everything was fine before these people came along and tried to identify a problem so they could offer their solutions to fix it!"
Sadly, they would argue that they solved the "problem." These people brought a divisiveness to the SBC that continues to this very moment.
Bob:
What you said. But for any SB Pastor to say what you IMO correctly said will cost him much.
Wade...When I read the title of this post, it caused my breath to intake, and my eyes filled with tears! It was some of the very things...I addressed at tgc yesterday.
I found this blog recently, and it has been such refreshing water to my weary soul. You will never know how your kindness through it has refreshed me, and given me such hope. It has been...the fragrance of the flower...and a shelter from the storm.
I...had commented on gc...gently, graciously bringing forth truth...but just now after replying (privately) on a comp. blog to some thoughts that I had just read for the first time... (an article suggested that egals are homo by Grudem...and that an "ezer" is inferior...and my grief at Bruce Ware's suggestions that masculine passivity and violence is due to women not "submitting")...(o.k....I think I said something like, "I'd rather compost horse hockey than submit to such theology...) well, guess what, they just removed my very gentle, loving post from gc.
Why is it...that they can abuse...can cause great harm...yet if I bring light into darkness...and privately...instead of them repenting...showing that their hearts, though fallible, are sincere, genuine in their desire to glorify God...I am "punished?" If their hearts were in the right place with God...would they not accept rebuke...even that done privately?
Better to know it at this end...than further down the road. My daughter just "happened" to say, playing a video game...(my husband passed on to me)..."Just because you can stand at the top of the stairs and fire a rocket-launcher, that doesn't make you good."
Amen
How come there are no women called senior pastor pastoring a church in the bible?
Probably the same reason there are no men in the bible with that title.
Can I assume the "Steve G." who penned the August 18th, 11:01:00 AM comment is NOT the Steve G. who was on the committee that drafted the BF&M 2000?
Thank you for this article, Wade.
Aletheia,
I think to respond to your rebuke with an admittance that they have placed extra-biblical restrictions on women and ignored the Spirit's power in giftings, regardless of gender, is impossible without the Spirit intervening because:
(1). It contradicts all that they have taught for years.
(2). It is humiliating to admit they have been wrong, and to have that admittance given to a woman no less.
(3). There is too much to lose!
Thanks for the kind words.
That which you have going for you is the truth of Scripture itself. Keep it up!
The Bible speaks of "overseers" (elders/bishops) and they can only be men. They must be ordained by other elders.
Likewise, only men can be deacons.
Paul commanded women to be silent during worship. There is no way to explain this text away and claim that it was just for the first century.
Wade, Joe Blackmon is right. You really have drifted to the left. If you are so adamant in your position on women, and so defiant of the BF&M 2000 on this point, then why don't you join the CBF? They affirm your position on women, and according to you, they are Bible believers.
Wade, please forgive me, if I sounded callous in my last comment. Mainly due to work and my health issues, I have not had many opportunities to travel lately. I am winding down my work here to head back to India. I do want to thank you, for you have been very generous and tolerant of me and my comments on this blog. Even when I go back to India, I intend to be a part of virtual community on your blog. Many blessings to you and to your family.
Aletheia,
It is for comments like yours that I continue to write. Thanks for a refreshing honesty and transparency--and thanks for your commitment to the cause of God and truth.
James,
Left of Joe Blackman is probably the greatest compliment I have received in years. Thank you for taking the time to right.
I remain true to the teachings of the inspired and infallible Word of God, not the traditions of men.
New BBC Forum,
Amen.
Thy Peace,
Your words are always precise, easy to understand, and meaningful. Glad to know you will continue to be a part of the virtual community. You have been a help and blessing to me on too many occasions to number!
To all:
I am out of town for a couple of days and will respond to comments upon my return.
Wade
Wade,
I read your comment to James, just before I read your second comment to me...and to be honest...my eyes filled with tears to see authentic masculine strength, standing firm. Godspeed, brother...and may He raise many more like you. I fear...for the trajectory of our country...if He does not.
Wade: Thank you for taking the time to give your opinion about pastors.
“The word pastor is a "verb" not a noun.” “Pastor is a calling of service not a title of significance.” “If I tell people that I "pastor," I am telling them how I serve.”
It sounds like you understand a valuable truth for the body of Christ today but find it hard to put that truth into practice because of being in bondage to the doctrines of men (Col 2:22) and commandments of men (Mk 7:7) the traditions of men (Mk 7:13) that make void the word of God that many today have accepted as truth.
If you say “pastor is a "verb" “Pastor...not a title of significance” then why when I click on your “View my complete profile ” at the top of your blog I see on the about page this “title of significance?”
Occupation - “Lead Pastor” of Emmanuel Enid
https://plus.google.com/104502590427919906366/about
And when I click on this about page you have another “title of significance.”
Since 1992 Wade has been “Senior Pastor” of the Emmanuel Baptist Church.
http://www.wadeburleson.com/about.html
Aren’t “Lead Pastor” and “Senior Pastor” nouns? And “titles of significance?”
Jesus ...made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant,
and was made in the likeness of men... he humbled himself... (Phil 2:7-8)
If I’m known as “Lead Pastor” and “Senior Pastor?”
Isn’t that having a reputation?
If I tell people I’m a “Lead Pastor” and “Senior Pastor?
Is that honoring myself? Jn 8:54
Is that “seeking my own glory?” Jn 7:18. Jn 8:50.
Wade: We have already discussed “senior pastor” not being in the bible and “lead pastor” is also not in the bible. Yet
many today use these “titles of significance” and most of the people sitting in pews today have come to believe these are “biblical” “titles of significance.” And worship them.
If you do not believe christians worship and put on a pedestal like an idol “pastors” “lead pastors” and “senior pastors” today just try telling or teaching them there is no one with these “titles of significance” in the bible and we will no longer use these “titles of significance” because we have been fooled all these years by the doctrines of men and traditions of men.
You have stated “It may not be "biblical," but it is not necessarily anti-biblical.”
Wouldn’t “titles of significance” be anti-biblical because they come from the doctrines of men (Col 2:22) commandments of men (Mk 7:7) and the traditions of men (Mk 7:13) that make void the word of God? And not from the bible? And if something makes void God’s Word that would be anti-biblical.
Aren’t we warned many times about the dangers of the doctrines of men and the commandments of men? Warned about many false profits and false teachers? If “senior pastor” and “lead pastor” are not in the bible then weren’t they made up by men? And are now doctrines of men and commandments of men? Devised and started by those who are desiring to control and manipulate Gods sheep? And make a reputation for themself? And seek their own glory?
Isn’t Jesus the only one in the scriptures with the “title of significance”
Shepherd and Bishop of my soul. 1 Pet 2:25
James:
I know this will be hard for you to understand but the 2000 BF&M is not the Bible and if one does not support every single position it he or she is not required to leave the SBC and go to the CBF and I am quite sure what you are insinuating by going to the CBF.
My heart truly breaks when I read such things as you posted to Wade.
By "silent during worship" what I meant was St. Paul forbids women teaching men.
Anyone who supports the ordination of women would certainly find a more comfortable home in the CBF. It will not happen in the SBC.
James,
I feel compelled to chime in and agree with you wholeheartedly.
There is no way to explain away your interpretation of that text because your mind is made up and you are limited to your own understanding. While a little bit of humility would go a long way for you, this does not appear to be possible. So, you are correct to say that in your mind, the case is settled.
Unfortunately for you, the rest of us also have the privilege of reading Scripture (all of it) and we are under no obligation to yield to your interpretation.
By the way, do also insist that women not wear expensive clothes, gold (wedding rings?), or pearls? Please tell me that, if nothing else, you are consistent. After all, those instructions are only two sentences apart.
And do you require women to cover their heads when they pray or prophesy in worship. No, wait, they have to be silent don't they? And that cannot be explained away no matter what it says in 1 Corinthians.
Ah, the thorny knots we tie for ourselves when we are inconsistently dogmatic.
Wade stated: "I remain true to the teachings of the inspired and infallible Word of God, not the traditions of men."
AMEN! I am with Wade on this and anyone who disagrees with me on my and Wade's interpretation of the Word of God, is simply untrue (deceived, heretical, confused, ignorant or maybe too stupid to understand) the teachings of the inspired and infallible Word of God.
BMG
James:
Me thinks you live in that dreamy FUMNDAMENTAL WORLD where everyone has to go along with YOUR INTERPRETATION.
Just keep dreaming James.
BTW James me thinks you are Joe or a pea in the pod with Joe.
jdavid, read this: http://bible-researcher.com/women-prophesying.html
And this: http://bible-researcher.com/headcoverings.html
Wade remember when you called the SBC a "cult" because they disfellowshipped FBC Decatur for hiring a female pastor?
Recently, FBC Decatur held an apostate CBF-sponsored "sexuality conference" where speakers supported homosexuality and same-sex "marriage."
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=37651
Support for female ordination goes hand-in-hand with a low view of Scripture.
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=37666
http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=37735
Are you also saying by linking to those articles that women cannot have short hair? :)
It appears to me James you are just being a Troll here.
I will not feed you any more.
James,
I would encourage you to realize that if you desire to convince people of your perspective, then gracious communication that is full of truth goes a long way.
A lack of grace turns people off.
Thinking
Hi Wade,
I'm pondering your blog post, and wondering if you can also address the scriptures about elders given in the earlier comments?
Thanks!
Interestingly, even John MacArthur Jr. allows for female deacons based on his understanding of the Greek...and he's extremely conservative regarding women's roles.
Godspeed, Thy Peace. I can remember we once nicknamed you "Thy Link" because you could find anything online!
Lydia
"By "silent during worship" what I meant was St. Paul forbids women teaching men."
1 Corin 14 means total silence so that means no singing, either. Perhaps you need to take another look at what Paul says after that verse.
And just for grins, check out Calvin or either Jerome's translation of authenteo in 1 Tim passage you love. I suppose you actually believe women are saved in childbirth. I know a lot of you guys do teach that heinous twisting of scripture.
Has anyone attended a church that enforces Paul's command that all men in the church must pray with uplifted hands? 1 Tim. 2:8
Victorious:
These people pick the literal verses they like and conveniently ignore the ones they do not. The Bible was never intended to be used this way.
Tom, if you read the two articles I posted you will see that I do not ignore any of the Bible. It is you who picks and chooses what he wants to believe.
..." When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification." 1 Cor. 14:26
EACH has a teaching...
Victorious:
As you said "Each has a teaching" but in the SBC the powerful men have overruled what is in the Bible and changed the 2000 BF&M CREED to suit their preconceived ideas.
Tom, here is an article that would benefit you and any other misinformed anti-creedalists here:
http://bible-researcher.com/gentry1.html
Wade, this excellent article has stayed with me and as I was continuing to think about Anna, I suddenly started crying. And I realised (don't take this as a deep theological statement) that Anna is probably looking down from heaven and crying her eyes out in distress, because some people are stopping the women of today from teaching the things of God to anyone who will listen.
Quite frankly, the complementarian position is an insult to Anna, to all the other godly women of the bible, and ultimately to God himself, who continues to call women (as well as men) to speak of him.
@ Ryan (the very first comment): another weakness in your argument is that Anna is described as a prophetess, and so her speech had the authority of God behind it. We often think of prophets as predicting the future, but in the new testament their role is primarily a teaching one - proclaiming the things of God. If no less a figure than Luke the apostle recognised Anna's office, then I think it is clear than women can teach men, with all the resulting implications for authority that this brings.
David
GREAT insight!
Wade
James
You write - Sun Aug 19, 11:46:00 PM 2012...
“The Bible speaks of "overseers" (elders/bishops) and they can only be men.”
Well - Don’t know if you ever noticed or not - but...
The Bible speaks of Elder/Overseers and they can only be - Blameless - Just - Holy.
If you use 1 Tim 3, and Titus to say a female cannot be an “Elder/Overseer?”
Why do you “Ignore” “Twist” and “Redefine” the rest of the “Qualifications?”
So a male can be called, and known as - Elder/Overseer?
1 - A bishop (overseer) then *must be* **blameless**... 1 Tim 3:2 KJV
2 - For a bishop (overseer) *must be* **blameless**... Titus 1:7 KJV
*Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. - It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s - necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: ...You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
Seems to be a small word - but very important. Yes?
1 - **Blameless**... How important is this word?
Strongs #423 - anepileptos - inculpable, blameless, unrebukeable.
Thayer’s - that cannot be reprehended, (cannot be, rebukable,
reprovable, cannot find fault) not open to censure, irreproachable.
Dictionary - Without fault; innocent; guiltless; not meriting censure.
Synonyms - faultless, guiltless, innocent, irreproachable, spotless, unblemished.
1 Tim 3:2 ASV - The bishop therefore must be without reproach...
1 Tim 3:2 NIV - Now the overseer must be above reproach...
1 Tim 3:2 NLT - For an elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against.
How many “Elder/Overseers,” who honestly examine themselves,
seriously considering this one **qualification,** (*Must Be* **Blameless,**)
can see themselves as **Blameless,** without fault, above reproach,
and thus qualify to be an “Elder/Overseer?”
And - If you can see yourself as **Blameless:** Guiltless - Innocent...
Is that pride? And no longer without fault? Oy Vey! ;-)
Aren’t ALL the “Qualifications” important? Which one’s can we “Ignore?”
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold - One Shepherd - One Voice
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Wade, read the article I posted about women prophesying. They did not prophesy in the church.
Then read this: http://bible-researcher.com/dabney1.html
Anna was an inspired prophetess like those few of the Old Testament. We do not have that today. She was also not teaching in the context of the church.
Wade, you are promoting heresy which is recognized as such by all orthodox Protestant denominations. (This excludes Pentecostalism, which is not orthodox.) Evangelical feminism should not be tolerated on the SBC.
The SBC will continue to expel any and all churches who ordain female pastors/elders and deacons.
Wade Burleson > The Inspired, Inerrant, Infallible Bible Is Sufficient for Me[October 23, 2006]
Wade Burleson > A Deafening Silence Fit for a Statue [August 20, 2006]
James said:The SBC will continue to expel any and all churches who ordain female pastors/elders and deacons
1) Glad to know that James has such power.
2) We should treat him appropriately for his prophecy.
3) Watch Capitol Hill Baptist as the test case for his prophecy. I don't think anyone has tried to throw them out:
http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/we-are/led/deacons-deaconesses/deacon-deaconess-bios/
B Nettles:
The ones who changed the BF&M to exclude women from the pastorate seemingly care little about what they have done to the SBC.
It sadly emboldened some to attack women every chance they get and to hurt the lives of ministers who dare to even say that a woman could possibly pastor or that they would not submit to the 2000 BF&M CREED.
Te SBC used to be about missions and evangelism but those days are past.
IMO SBC leaders really wished that Lottie and Annie had been Lot and Dan.
Wow!
James,
I suppose you don't get the point, so I will state it more clearly.
I can read, think, reason, an follow the leading of Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately for you, you don't have any authority over me. I can tell that you really hate that.
Just because you contort Scripture around to make it say what you want neither convinces nor impresses me. Nor does your habit of calling people names who disagree with you.
Like I said, a little humility (the Philippians 2 kind) would go a long way for you. But, I don't have (nor do I want) any authority over you either so that's entirely your choice.
James,
I suppose you don't get the point, so I will state it more clearly.
I can read, think, reason, an follow the leading of Scripture and the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately for you, you don't have any authority over me. I can tell that you really hate that.
Just because you contort Scripture around to make it say what you want neither convinces nor impresses me. Nor does your habit of calling people names who disagree with you.
Like I said, a little humility (the Philippians 2 kind) would go a long way for you. But, I don't have (nor do I want) any authority over you either so that's entirely your choice.
James: Let me tell you a real live story about those who think so little of women.
Once upon a time(this past week) a wife told her husband she wanted a divorce. This wife was not meek when her husband tried to bully her.
He then took a knife and stabbed her in the arms, face, and in the back, almost puncturing her lung. The topper of all this was, the children who are a baby and a pre-kindergarden child were there watching it all happen. He is now in jail. This woman is the best friend of my daughter. We have known her since she was in the second grade.
I've had to it up to my eyeballs with scripture contortion on women's place in the church. It's an abuse of women and this is 2012. Stop! I am tired of being treated in a way scripture does not condone. You are wrong James.
Wade,
The only thing better than your post MIGHT be the excellent comments SUPPORTING your post.
Piper would have joined Mary’s sister, Martha, in restricting Mary to the kitchen, but Jesus told Martha: “But one thing is needful; and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.” (Luke 10:42 KJ).
As we grow older, we learn more and change our minds as Peter did after an encounter with God and seeing Gentiles converted and receiving the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were baptized. (Acts 10:44)
Peter’s experience made his previous statement a ‘cart before the horse’ issue: “Repent…and be baptized, each of you, in the name of Jesus the Messiah for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38 Holman)
Peter’s statement is used by many in believing you must be baptized to be saved.
Wade, your post said, “I believe the Bible is the inspired and infallible Word of God.”
Thy Peace referenced your former statement of the Bible as: “inspired, Inerrant, Infallible.”
Did you forget “Inerrant” or have you changed your mind?
BTW, “Inerrant” is not found in any BF&M and is not accepted by the old Southern Baptist Conventions of Texas and Virginia.
I believe it is used as a code word for acceptance by the ‘powers that be’.
When Patterson attacked the IMB for having women in positions over men, the IMB President’s defense was all the IMB believed in the Inerrant Word of God.
Wade, thanks for a great post.
James,
You said "Wade, you are promoting heresy which is recognized as such by all orthodox Protestant denominations"
That statement is without foundation. I can think of numerous anglican, baptist, lutheran, methodist, presbyterian, and wesleyan denominations that permit women to teach men (and ordain women to lead churches). They are all orthodox in that they affirm all the major historic creeds of the Christian faith. Many are evangelical or contain evangelical groupings.
You are basically saying that "orthodox" is anything you agree with and "heresy" is anything you disagree with. Please stop doing this and take a more mature approach. It's not treating other Christians with love.
Heresy in particular refers to a serious error in a central tenet of the faith. It is totally inappropriate to apply it here.
Wade has written on this very topic - you would do well to check out http://www.wadeburleson.org/2007/10/free-use-of-word-heretic-is-unhelpful.html
I personally know of a woman (belonging to a SBC church) who wanted out of a marriage and her husband refused, saying that divorce would be considered only if his wife committed adultery. (this is one of the church teachings in SBC churches)
Guess what happened next?
The woman went to commit an adultery, just so she can get out of the marriage.
This nonsense in SBC churches has got to stop. All the fighting over preservation of forms, but not over the substance.
BTW in the US and around the world, in the past 10 years Women are leaving Men in the dust in education and other fields. I think this fear is what is driving the push towards patriarchy in the churches.
Debbie, I'm talking about who can be ordained in the church. Your story has no relevance to that.
David, the denominations you are talking about are all apostate liberal mainline denominations (ELCA, PCUSA, EPC, ECUSA, UCC, UMC, RCA, ABCUSA, CBF, etc.)
The ordination of women is wrong no matter who does it. If you want to do it, there are plenty of churches for you to go to, like those listed above. It will not happen in the SBC.
Wade, I did not twist or ignore any Biblical passages. Did you even read the articles I posted?
Wade, where did I say that women should "submit to the authority of the pastor." I nowhere said that. You are lying Wade.
James:
It is easy for all of us to see where you are coming from--just one way--FUNDAMENTALIST--your way or the HIGHWAY.
What if you and others of your mind are wrong?
James
You seem to “Ignore” the last comment about “Must Be Blameless” for males.
Here’s two more qualifications from Titus for “Elder/Overseer” that most males who want to be an “Elder/Overseer” today will *Ignore* *Twist* or “Redefine* in order to obtain - for themself - a “position” of importance.
A “position” with...
Power - Profit - Prestige - Honor - Glory - Recognition - Reputation.
ALL those things Jesus spoke against.
ALL those things that become “Idols of the Heart.” Ezek 14:1-11.
ALL those things highly esteemed among men - BUT...
Is an abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15
Titus 1:6-8 KJV
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
2 - Just
Strongs #1342 - dikaios {dik'-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers - 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous,
who pride themselves to be righteous, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
3 - Holy
Strongs #3741 - hosios {hos'-ee-os}
Thayers - 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
Now that’s three tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers.”
1 - Must Be Blameless. 2 - Just. 3 - Holy. -- Yes?
Every believer has this right - to check out the Pastors and the Elders.
And we beseech you, brethren, **to know them**
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord,
and admonish you;
1 Thess 5:12 KJV
Makes an interesting study - checking out ALL these tough qualifications for “Elder/Overseers” - Then checking out those who say they are “Elder/Overseers” compared to the qualifications. :-)
And if the “Elder/Overseers” do NOT meet the qualifications...
Will they remove themselves? Give up their “Titles” and “Power?”
And be a good example to the flock?
An elder must indeed be blameless. St. Paul doesn't mean sinless in this context, or else nobody could be an elder.
I don't see how this helps you get around the Bible's teaching that elders can only be men.
The one here denying the infallible and Inerrant text of Scripture is you Wade, especially in your absurd argument that 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12 are not for the church today. It is disingenuous for you to continue to portray yourself as a "conservative" in light of this. More moderate double talk.
If Emmanuel Enid ordains women as pastors/elders, then it won't be long before Emmanuel Enid is expelled from the SBC. No compromise or cooperation with evangelical feminism.
One of the things that J. Gresham Machen fought against in the mainline Presbyterian church was the ordination of women.
Wade, the CBF is calling you.
Wade, I also note that you have taken part in the apostate New Baptist Covenant.
I don't agree with a lot of the positions of the IFB/KJV-Only David Cloud, but he wrote a helpful expose of the NBC:
http://wayoflife.org/database/baptistcovenant.html
If you disagree with Wade on this, according to him you:
1 – add to scripture
“To be honest, I am stupified by John Piper, Don Carson, and others who add to Scripture and try to impose on women restrictions that are nowhere found in the New Testament. “
2 – ignore the clear and direct teachings of scripture
“What puzzles me is how the clear and direct teaching of the entire New Testament is seemingly ignored in the minds of these men. “
3 – your view is errant and you deny the infallible text of scripture.
“The only explanation I can find is that their errant interpretation of one passage of Scripture (I Timothy 2:11-15) leads them to deny the infallible text of Scripture.
4 – you are confused
“If you count yourself as one who is confused by what seems to be a contradiction of the entire New Testament by this Timothy passage”
5 – you are not living in accordance to the standards of scripture.
“It's about time we Christians lived
our lives in accordance to the standards of Scripture and not according to the traditions of men.”
Does anyone smell elitism? Wade stated in a comment: “A lack of grace turns people off.”
Where is grace being afforded by Wade towards those Wade disagree with?
Ben
I must say I find it amazing and tragic how believers have sliced and diced the Word of God into male and female directives. Most every time I see a woman's conference or study, the topic is the Proverbs 31 woman. If women aren't "learning" how to be a woman, they are learning how to sew, decorate, enjoy ice-cream socials, and/or being good mothers.
Please don't misunderstand me, there is nothing wrong with any of those goals, but I'm of the opinion that if I am inspired by the men in scripture, we have a problem when men can't be inspired by Mary, Anna, Deborah, and the woman in Proverbs. When we limit women to "the women verses" and men to the "men verses," we are not rightly dividing the Word of God.
When we focus on the "one anothering" in scripture, we will be much closer to the intent of the Bible as well as fulfilling the royal command to love God and our neighbor as ourselves.
Ben,
One can disagree with me till Jesus comes and be afforded mercy and grace.
There is, however, a difference between disagreement with a spirit of humility and grace and disagreement that calls people heretics and deniers of the faith, as James has done. You speak the language one understands.
:)
James,
I think I’ve figured you out.
You are a good guy disguised as a bad guy to show by example how bad the folks are that you represent.
GOOD JOB!!!
Rex:
You said to James:"James,
I think I’ve figured you out.
You are a good guy disguised as a bad guy to show by example how bad the folks are that you represent.
GOOD JOB!!!"
Ditto!!
It would be helpful if we kept the debate to the scripture passages. I'd really like to understand all sides of this issue more in terms of what the scriptures are saying.
On the one hand, I see Wade's points in the passages he brings up about Prophetess in the OT, and Anna in Luke teaching about Christ. Also, there's Galatians 3:28 that says there is "....neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ...."
On the other hand, there is 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:11-12. These do seem like conflicts, so how do we interpret all of this?
Honestly a lot of these comments have not been helpful to this debate. They are personal attacks on both sides of the fence. I don't think "complementarianism" should be equated with the gospel. But I also want to honor the Word of God and understand how to interpret what looks like a contradiction from the passages I listed above.
Wade, I've enjoyed reading your blog over the years. Any chance you could do a follow-up to your post on these passages of scripture?
Thanks and God Bless,
-Will
Will,
I would urge you to pick up the book by Jon Zens "What's With Paul and Women" and read it. All your questions are answered in that little book about the two passages you mention. Also, if you type in those scripture references in my google search bar, you will find abbreviated answers in previous posts! Thanks for your comment!
Thanks Wade, I'll check these out.
-Will
James,
I would ask you to forgive me for my previous comment to you. What I wrote was absolutely silly.
I don't question your faith, nor the condition of your soul. I know you love Christ and are standing for what you believe is Truth. Good for you.
Keep commenting. Call me out. Sometimes I lose my temper when I see the word 'heresy' assigned to those who love Christ and His Word and are simply attempting to be faithful to the text. That's my crooked soul, and the only thing that allows me to keep my sanity is to know that God loves every crook in me. :)
Anyway, I apologize for what I wrote. Have a great weekend!
Saying something is not biblical but it's not anti-biblical confuses me. To me that's like saying with holding the truth is not actually a lie. I keep trying to tell my kids it is the same thing. They don't actually lie to me, but I have to ask the right question to get the whole story. On the other hand, God tells us that we are to submit to the governments authorities and that they were put into place to help us or something like that. Forgive me that I'm not very well versed with what I'm trying to say. Leadership was "God designed" to be for our good. Since the creation of the human race. This debate about titles within the church is very confusing to me. On a larger scale when we give the President of our country his title isn't it the same? We can't all be chiefs and we cant all be indians. There has to be chains of command and lines of authority for anything to go smoothly. God gives men and women the gift of leadership and aligns them where He wants them. The point I'm trying to make is that titles are more for respect and order, They come with God's power not their own. Too much is given, much is expected. There are advantages and disadvantages to every job/gift. We are all parts of the Body of Christ. Without your nose you couldn't smell etc..... Without your pastor or leader or CEO or President or whatever name you want to give to a leadership position(with or without a degree) Without them there is no respected or credible execution of God's word to the multitudes. Furthermore, A woman is under the authority of her husband so she must give him respect he is the leader of her household. He is "the pastor" so to speak. She only submits to her Husband and to God and to leaders who are wiser in the same gift. If she has her husbands support and she has been gifted by God and verified by her own leaders and teachers aka "pastors" then she is absolutely in line with God's will to be a "pastor" or leader. As far as being called "Pastor" Jesus spoke in front of crowds and taught and instructed and managed and gave orders to the people and so did His disciples. All titles and positions can be abused even in the body of Christ. But we can't go around calling every gifted disciple of Christ "Jesus" we have to call them something else. So the "Pastor" debate between you and "Blest" has me mind bogled.
Anonymous,
Your filter is different than mine. When I come to Scripture I hear phrases ringing in my head like "we are all co-heirs of Jesus Christ," we are all "a kingdom of priests," and "in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, male or female, slave or free." What those verses seem to say is their is EQUAL spiritual authority in all of God's children. NOBODY has more SPIRITUAL authority than anyone else. Sure, there is "legal" authority (trustees, policemen, etc...), "business" authority (boss, stockholders, etc...), and various other kinds of authority, but the Scripture is EMPHATIC that CHRIST ALONE has spiritual authority and any authority we derive from Him is because of His giftings of us and our service of other to Him. Jesus himself said that the Gentiles go about tagging different titles of authority on different leaders and then says to His disciples, "It shall not so be among you!"
That's my filter.
Wade
I like your filter - A lot. And the way you - hear phrases ringing - From The Bible. ;-)
Seems - Believers - His Body - His Ekklesia - His Church - His called out ones...
Are - Kings - Priests - Brides - Servants - Sons - Disciples - Ambassadors
1, 2 - Kings and Priests
And hath made us “kings and priests” unto God and his Father;
Revelations 1:6
And hast made us unto our God “kings and priests” and we shall reign on the earth.
Revelations 5:10
3 - Brides
For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name;
Isaiah 54:5
... Come hither, I will shew thee “the bride,” the Lamb's wife.
Revelations 21:9
4 - Servants
If any man “serve me,” let him “follow me;” and where I am,
there shall also my servant be:
John 12:26
And on my “servants” and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
Acts 2:18
5 - Sons
But as many as received him,
to them gave he power to become “the sons of God,”
John 1:12
And because “ye are sons,”
God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts...
Galations 4:6
6 - Disciples
Then said Jesus unto “his disciples,” If any man
will come after me, let him deny himself...
Matthew 16:24
Herein is my Father glorified,
that ye bear much fruit; so “shall ye be my disciples.”
John 15:8
7 - Ambassadors
Now then we are “ambassadors for Christ”
2nd Corinthians 5:20
... a faithful “ambassador” is health.
Proverbs 13:17
IMO - Today - Those who want to be Known, Those who want to be Important...
Talk a lot about - “Titles”-“Leaders”- and who has the “Authority.”
And dis-miss what God has said about us eggnorant and unejumaked disciples.
And - as you said - "It shall not so be among you!"
I wonder how Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong would fit in with the SBC today?
Careful Pastor Wade--seeing all of us as equals in the church might make you a real Baptist, and we know how "beloved" real Baptists are in the SBC today!
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