One of the privileges of operating an Internet blog is meeting people on-line that you would otherwise never have the privilege of meeting. One such person is a 70-year-young lady named Mary G___ . She and her sisters were born in Arkansas during World War II in a place they came to call "Madness" because of the horrific physical and sexual abuse they suffered. Their mother knew what was happening, but she did nothing to stop it. There was "the breath of evil" (Mary's words) in the presence of their abuser. In 1967 Mary became a follower of Christ. Prior to her conversion, Mary was "as lost as a goose in a snowstorm," still bearing a scar above her eye where she fought with a member of the Hell's Angels. Shortly before she became a Christian, she was homeless with three babies. "Without Christ there is no telling where I would be," says. The last several decades of her life have been a journey toward wholeness. Mary's sister disappeared into a world of mental illness, but Mary developed a hunger for God's Word.
In 2010, 68-year-old Mary was a graduate student at Hardin Simmons/Logsdon Seminary (M.A. Family Ministry), doing research on sexual abuse. It was during that time she came across this website and began reading some of the things I have written about sexual abuse, patriarchy, and male domination. "I was 68 years old, had grown up under the load of male domination," says Mary. "In my research, I found a statement by Bruce Wares that said, 'One reason men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority.' I was horrified." Mary decided not just to study the cause and effects of sexual abuse, but to tap into her personal recovery from abuse and begin to bring practical healing to other survivors.
Mary is holding her first ever Sex Abuse Survivor Workshop at the Country Inn in Texarkana, Texas on September 15, 2012. Her husband and church have been very supportive. "Even if it is one woman who is helped, it will be worth it," says Mary. If you would like more information about the conference, you may contact Mary directly at wlgmeg2911@aol.com.
As Mary shared with me some of her background, she me the following fascinating story. She has given me permission to share it with you.
__________________________
"We live about a hundred and ten miles from Lubbock. On the outskirts of Lubbock is a strip club that used to be called, "Chilli Willies." Every time we drove by there, I prayed for God to close it down or infest it with a plague of lice, mice and frogs, anything God - just shut the doors on that hell hole. Well, after four years of driving past Chilli Willies and praying that prayer, God said to my heart, "Stop cursing the darkness and go in there." Really? I drove on to Lubbock and did what I had to get done and tried to push the idea out of my head. Again, "Stop cursing the darkness and go in there." I even stalled the time to leave thinking God might be out to lunch and not see me drive on by or maybe they would be closed if I waited a little longer. "Stop cursing the darkness."
Since the deer and wild hogs come out at night, I needed to get home before dark. So, as I cruised on by the strip club, out of the corner of my eye, a young woman walked walked out of the club. She was headed toward the convenience store next to the club and she appeared to be a dancer (imagine that). I probably drove another half mile before I turned around and headed back. (You just can't out wit God!!!) There she was coming out of the convenience store.
I headed into the strip club parking lot and got out of my car to approach the woman. I introduced myself and asked her if she worked at the club. She replied that she did. Her stage name was Diamond. She went on to say that she used to deal drugs to support her children but she changed "professions." I asked her about Jesus and if she attended church any where. She said she had been a member of a church but was no longer attending. I asked her if she could get me into the club to talk to the manager about starting a Bible Study for the dancers. So walking along with her, I followed her inside to a very dark place (spiritually and literally) and spoke with the manager. I shared my desire to do a Bible Study and he said he would "talk to the girls." I knew he wouldn't. I gave him my card with John 3:16 on the back, thanked him and left. Shortly after that, the club closed down.
I have asked God to let me write and speak as I live out the last years of my life. I want the last years to be better than the first ones. I want to get into every church I possibly can and try to help the women and in so doing, strengthen the next generations to come! Dr. Dan Allender (The Wounded Heart) said, "Sex abuse is a designer evil that is meant to shatter us and drive us away from God." I have got to get this message through to women and church leaders."
__________________________
I love how God is using women like Mary to build His Kingdom and teach guys like me some wonderful lessons of life.
44 comments:
It seems to me that Bruce Ware's reality distortion field is so huge that he brings disrespect to both God and the body of Christ with his outragerous and horrific statements about gender.
He should repent, period, as he does not faithfully represent Christ when he says these types of things.
Most of the dark places are not outside but within. The tragedy of depression and mental illness creates so many dark places for so many and sadly for lot of people there is no release from this suffering. For some, therapy and/or medications help. For some, time is the healer. The only soothing balm for this darkness is The Gospel of Our Lord. Nothing else penetrates this darkness. This light slowly takes root and begins to dispel the darkness within. I would not be exaggerating when I say that MOST of the darkness is within one's heart and mind and soul. Only Jesus Christ is the light that dispels this darkness. Nothing else does.
A must read ... Very apt for this post too.
VTM Bottomline [Paul Burleson] > MORE PROOF OF HIS AMAZING GRACE
Bruce Wares said, 'One reason men abuse their wives is because women rebel against their husband's God-given authority.' I was horrified."
Anyone that would buy into that type of thinking is sick.
I've said many times and I will say it again the FUNDAMENTALIST TAKEOVER was about power and authority.
Now that this group has both they are rarely challenged because what will be done to someone is beyond Hard Ball.
The SBC has lost the God-Given talent of women due to some men's perverted view of the Holy Scriptures.
I am confident God has used them elsewhere in his Kingdom's work.
Thank you for posting what I shared. I appreciate the encouragement and support I have received from your church, Wade. There is much to be done and I may be 70 but these are my best years.I will be going to Texarkana on Sept. 15 to try and bring out some of the wounded. I feel like I am a part of your church. It is an awesome feeling to get such support from folks I have never met. I will keep y'all updated. In the meantime-please take a look at my blog and my comments about the church and sex abuse: http://marygruben.com/passageslifecoaching
You are welcome, Mary! I didn't use your last name because I wasn't sure if you desired for me to, but with your permission, I will add it in the post.
Wow, Tom, do you really believe that most Southern Baptists agree with Bruce Ware's comments?
I don’t really think that his extreme outlook is a product of the “Fundamentalist Takeover” of SBC, do you?
In regards to SBC losing the talent of many women, Southern Baptists do continue to follow the tradition of having men fill the role of "senior pastor". But millions of women serve in Southern Baptist churches and on the mission field and a lot serve as ministers on SB church staffs.
We surely have had some women who have felt called to serve as “senior pastors” and have left the SBC but praise God we continue to have many gifted women who have no difficulty in fulfilling their call to ministry within the SBC.
There are extremists in all camps but better to try to keep an objective perspective.
I love to hear stories like this. Women like Mary are a great example of how God uses us. Thank you Mary.
If the church doesn't use us, God will still use us. Thank you Wade for being the type of minister you are. I am blessed to have been led to Emmanuel.
RRR:
I certainly believe there are far too many SB men who would share Ware's views about women.
The problem I have with your view of women pastoring is you believe it is the only acceptable view and thereby you deny a woman in the SBC to use her God given talent.
From where I sit your view is EXTREME!!
This is an Off Topic Comment. I have not revealed much about myself on the blogs. I might have revealed a little bit about myself to couple of you over the emails. I survived my school Sainik School Korukonda over a period of eight years, from the age of 9 y.o to 17 y.o. I loved this school and hated this school. I was not meant for regimentation. But such was my lot. I had the only honor of being the highest ranked person in a class and also probably the only person to be defrocked of my rank as a house captain. In a way, I am proud of my defrocking. I would encourage you to watch this video, that highlights the school I attended. This school is with me always, even though I try to distance myself from it. Such is life.
Hey sounds like the "Grace Place" before it was ever the "Grace Place"...I can't remember the original name. Wasn't it Charlies? Was it Pastor Dan that went into the bar once a week and had a soda and got to know the owner of the bar? You know the story Wade, can you remind me of it? I think I would really like this woman!!
I'll be praying for her.
pege
The quote by Dr. Ware has been brought up on this and other blogs before. Obviously, it has no validity void of context and could easily have no place in any context. I have heard Dr. Ware speak on two occasions, read articles by him on open theism, and genuinely believe him to be a valued, conservative member of the SBTS faculty. Obviously, he is a complementarian, and that is not the view held by many who read and comment on this blog. However, it is not an issue over which Bible believing evangelicals should consider a test of faith nor make claim against the other that their "Gospel" message is in some way inferior. We are all witnesses of the same Gospel and quite frankly, I know of no one who is worthy to be its poster child. I would like to see the quote in context so that I may make my own informed and learned opinion of it. If it is still unclear, then Dr. Ware has sufficient contact information at the SBTS website that I or anyone could easily ask him to clarify the point so as to be sure to represent him in the way in which he himself really intended. If it comes to be that he is a heretic, then I'll help bring the first bundle of sticks...though I might need help carrying it as my own plank is quite a heavy burden on its own. :)
KMC:
You said:"The quote by Dr. Ware has been brought up on this and other blogs before. Obviously, it has no validity void of context and could easily have no place in any context."
Really???
Hey Tom, it's been a long time since we have had the pleasure of chatting. By that, I mean, I tend to agree with the general consensus of Wade and Mary, though I would like to see/hear the statement in its larger context. I tend to think that Dr. Ware had a point that he was making regarding the effect of sin on women specifically and the curse of God on women (see Gn. 3:16). I do not believe he was saying that all abuse (or any for that matter) is the fault of the woman but rather a natural result of sin. Of course, I would hate to put words in his mouth.
I have discovered that the quote was from a sermon in 2008 by Dr. Ware at a conference at Benton Bible Church in Texas put on by CBMW. Unfortunately, I seem to be running into errors at every turn when I click on the few available links. I am sure someone has a link that works.
-K
Wow, Thy Peace! That video is incredible. Gives me that much admiration and respect for you!
Some good thoughts Kevin. Thanks.
Pege!
I remember! Chuck was the man's name who owned the bar that became our Grace Place. He came to know the Lord through our witnessing to Him in the bar. :)
Tom,
You don't know "my" view on women pastoring.
This is an example of problems that we fabricate when we don't communicate.
I can tell you that I DO praise God for Mary and her boldness. Our God is an amazing "creator"!
Kevin, it's just a pet peeve of mine when I hear someone mention the "curse" on the woman because Scripture says God cursed the serpent and the ground; not Adam nor Eve.
I'm also amazed at the major assumptions and liberties read into the Genesis passage that are used to form doctrine that just isn't there. I have noticed that whenever someone wants to promote an authority/submission agenda to a husband/wife relationship, Genesis 3:16 follows in parenthesis. Verses 18 and 19 are conveniently overlooked however. When, for example, was the last time you heard a sermon exhorting men to give up their cushy air-conditioned jobs because they're supposed to have one that makes them literally sweat? lol
All the prophetic words spoken by God of conditions outside of the garden are adverse, negative conditions; most of which we have overcome btw. We no longer have to eat only vegetation; men no longer are relegated to the field only; thanks to medical advancements, childbirth is easier; and Round-Up has all but eliminated the growth of thorns and thistles. That leaves one condition that's yet to be overcome, doesn't it? And should it be presented as a "command" or even a necessity while the other conditions are not?
Just some of my thoughts....
Thy Peace,
I, too, was amazed by the video of the school you attended. The regimentation and exercises requiring such discipline was astonishing even during meals. Thank you for posting the link.
You mentioned you are returning to India but will remain part of the virtual community and for that I am happy! I will pray for you during this transition.
RRR:
You said:"We surely have had some women who have felt called to serve as “senior pastors” and have left the SBC but praise God we continue to have many gifted women who have no difficulty in fulfilling their call to ministry within the SBC."
Why should they have ever had to leave??
Thanks Vic,
Whenever God pronounces lasting judgment upon someone or something, that is a curse. Verses 14-19 are all a curse from God. All creation is under a curse--that is a result of sin. Nothing has changed to this day. We are still under a curse. We can, in our finite power, ease the pain, but the curse continues like the scientific axiom, "the effects of the curse are neither created nor destroyed, they are simply transferred from one form to another." Take childbirth for instance. I tend to think that before the fall, God had something more pleasant, more beautiful, and much easier. While birth is a wonderful thing, we are still under the curse today. Pains come in many ways. Medicine can mask the bodily paid of childbirth, but our nation and world has an epidemic of pain associated with the upbringing of a generation--no more so than today, when science has tried to eliminate the effects of the curse--those effects are simply transferred to another form.
Forgive me for a moment, but it almost seems as if you are saying that man has the ability to slip past the finger of God regarding your "we have overcome" comment. We have never been commanded or encouraged in the Bible to try to "overcome" the curse. It is a futile task to say the least. Jesus is the overcomer. He is our victory (1 Cor. 15:54-55) both now and when we "put on the imperishable...[and] immortality."
Finally, you are right in that I went to the one verse that deals with the subject at hand. I left out the following verses because they have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the issue of the curse on women--or men. I am also sorry to offend your pet pieve, but I am exegetically and literarilly justified to call it a curse.
It will be like it was meant to be when Jesus returns. Until then, it will bode well with us all to seek righteousness and holiness for His glory instead of escaping to what ever makes us feel good or makes us happy.
-K
KMC:
Long time no see or hear from you and it appears you have not changed one bit.
All your Biblical knowledge will do you or others no good if you constantly believe you are always right and they are always wrong.
Hello Kevin,
You said: "Whenever God pronounces lasting judgment upon someone or something, that is a curse"
You're reading something into scripture that evidently supports an agenda. If scripture uses the word "curse," it's a curse. If not, to read it there is to start with a desired result and trying to find scripture to support it.
If you are adament about calling these words in Genesis passage judgments, I doubt Wade would mind if we detour slightly to include the judgment about a man's toiling the land to include sweat and eating the plants of the field. Leaving out the surrounding verses is to remove one verse from it's context so they absolutely do have a bearing on the topic at hand.
So...if you see God's judgment in Genesis as a forever for all time judgment, why are men not continuing with a prescribed "career" in farming? And more importantly, of what value is the arrival of the Savior?
P.S.
Kevin, you did seem to think it unfair for Bruce Ware's statement to be taken out of context and that it might be better understood if it was not removed from the surrounding context.
But at the same time seem to have no problem isolating one verse in Genesis from it's context to better understand it's intent.
Why?
Victorious:
You said to Kevin:
" P.S.
Kevin, you did seem to think it unfair for Bruce Ware's statement to be taken out of context and that it might be better understood if it was not removed from the surrounding context.
But at the same time seem to have no problem isolating one verse in Genesis from it's context to better understand it's intent.
Why?"
Vicki:
You will find this is KMC's standard MO--he is blind and I hope not intentionally to his inconsistencies.
If the passage in Genesis is prescriptive, then the following is true:
1) Satan is commanded to bruise or afflict the humanity of Christ
2) The woman is commanded to have pain/toil in childbirth although this is only directed toward those women who are married and can conceive. It does not affect other women.
3) Thorns and thistles; i.e. weeds must be allowed to grow in our gardens regardless of whether or not they choke the life from them.
4) Adam/men must eat plants, herbs, and/or only vegetation. This command does not pertain to Eve or women since it was spoken to Adam only.
5) Men only will return to dust since only Adam was formed from the dust. This should not be true of women since the command is not directed toward them.
6) Wives must stretch out toward their husbands. But again, this judgment does not affect those women who choose to remain single.
7) Husbands must have power over their wives even though conspicuously absent is any command for husbands to do so.
8) Only the man was expelled from the garden.
No, these are not judgments nor commands. They are prophetic words revealing the sorrowful, adverse conditions Adam and Eve will experience outside of the perfect environment created for them. But God, in His mercy, not only promised a Redeemer but stationed a guard from the tree of life, so they would not partake of it and live forever in that unfortunate condition.
Later in the historical narrative of the Bible, we learn that God enabled man to eat meat and the development of agricultural machinery enabled easier farming and food production. Medical advancements continue to enable compassionate elimination or control of childbirth and/or debilitating/ malignant diseases.
Ooops...I meant elimination of childbirth "pain" in that last sentence.
I wasn't going to do this but after reading some of the blogs, I decided to try and clarify what I am seeing. Here are a couple more alleged quotes from men in our SBC. We can't look at just one quote and claim this is the view of all the men in the SBC. That would be narrow minded. Speaking as a woman, I probably pay more attention to these quotes because they fit a bigger picture of attitudes and actions from those in "high" places in the SBC. Dr.Paige Patterson is quoted in The Atlantic Journal, May 14, 1997, when asked about women, he quipped, "I think everyone should own at least one." Former Director of TCBMW, Timothy Bayly says,"Compassion for victims of domestic violence abuse has been a potent weapon in the hands of those opposing God's universal law of father rule (Journal TCBMW, Vol.5, No.1, Shepherd's Pie). Were they misquoted or taken out of context? Maybe. In one of my classes in grad school when we were discussing clergy sin and what should be done, one of my professors stood in front of the class and said, "If a woman was sexually abused as a child, then she is not believable as an adult." That pitiful attitude is probably the main reason we have not been able to get a national registry for sex offenders in SBC. Women in our SBC are not believable whether they have been sexually abused as a child or not! We simply have no voice! I didn't challenge the professor's statement but instead, I let it motivate me to do something to bring about change. Psychologist, Dr. Mary Piper says, "Language is weaponized when it is used to objectify,depersonalize,dehumanize, to create "other." Once a person is labeled as "not like us," the rules for civilized behavior no longer apply." Nathaniel Hawthorne said, "Words, so innocent and powerless as they are, as standing in a dictionary, how potent for good or evil they become, in the hands of one who knows how to combine them." These kinds of words create an atmosphere that says women aren't to be taken seriously.These statements create a hostile and unsafe world for the women and children in our churches. It keeps sexual and physical abuse hidden. If The Atlantic Journal was correct in its quote of Paige Patterson, think for a minute what would happen if he had said that about another minority or culture. These men remind me of the men in Esther 1:10-21 when Queen Vashti became angry and refused to obey her husband after he had too much wine. King Xerxes went to his wise men and asked what he should do. The men were in an uproar because they said all the women in Persia and Media would hear what the Queen had done and stop obeying their husbands. So, a law went out that all the wives would show proper respect for their husbands. Letters were sent to all parts of the empire and to each province in its own script, that every man should be the ruler of his home and should say whatever he pleases(my translation).
Mary, I will be praying for your Sex Abuse Survivor Workshop!Ministry in this area is so necessary. Bless you for your compassion for the wounded and hurting.
Vic,
You are right, please forgive me. Chapter and Verse were added as reference points to make it easier to refer to a specific place in Scripture. I believe (as does Wade) that Scripture interprets Scripture. I also believe that one must always use the context of the passage, the book, and the redemptive theme of the Bible as a whole. I am not married to the idea that we must call the entire passage a curse. However, God did decree to the man and the woman that certain things would take place as He did to the serpent and the land and the trees, etc. I really do see your point and do not find it invalid at all. However, I see the curse in all aspects as being intact until that time that the Savior does return. Obviously things have changed since that time in the garden. We have computers, genetic farming, and 7 billion people. I do not believe the passage was intended to convey all of the lasting ramifications nor look today like it was written of by Moses. I really believe on all those points we agree. I even agree with a large part of Wade's understanding of Scripture regarding the new covenant and the complete equality of men and women in the Kingdom. I am still bound, however, to consider the statement to the man and the woman as being factual and lasting for time until such time as the Lord perfects all of creation.
The woman's heart will be for (or more rightfully put; against, or to seek after his authority) the man. The issue of authority for another day, I do not think less of you or anyone who considers this passage differently.
So, to correct my most egregious error, please replace the parenthetical reference to this:
(Gn. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21)
:) Then, we can rightfully consider all of Paul's teaching as well. :-D
…..”or to seek after his authority”
It seems your “schema” has enabled you to see command throughout scripture (Gn. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21) for a husband to exercise authority over his wife where there is none. And you must know that some schemas make it difficult to retain and/or recognize information that does not conform to our preconceived ideas about a variety of issues. I challenge you to find such a command or entitlement in scripture directed to husbands.
“I do not believe the passage was intended to convey all of the lasting ramifications nor look today like it was written of by Moses.”
And yet by isolating one verse from the surrounding verses, you try to enforce lasting ramifications on a husband and wife where none is intended.
…..”Then, we can rightfully consider all of Paul's teaching as well”
And I would gently but emphatically respond as Paul did....”What?! Came the Word of God to you only?” And hopefully we would agree that in order to rightfully divide the Word, we should refrain from making sweeping assumptions from a small or nonexistent premise.
It's been a pleasure chatting with you, Kevin! Such exchanges indeed help us to sharpen one another.
Mary,
Good words.
I don’t understand why Paige Patterson or Timothy Bayly would say things like that. I realize they are in leadership positions and that these types of comments probably reflect their general perspective on women and that’s sad.
But institutional structures often facilitate our having people in leadership positions who are not necessarily representative of any where close to all of the people on all issues. I know there are many, if not most, Southern Baptist men who do not have that same mindset, i.e., “I think everyone should own at least one.”
For those of us who do not agree when comments like this are made I believe the challenge is for us to not remain silent but to express our disagreement. You advocacy helps me to keep this in mind.
Given that Southern Baptists have matured to the point of electing an African American as President for the first time, maybe there's hope that one day we'll be receptive to having a woman as President! It could happen.
RRR:
You said:"Given that Southern Baptists have matured to the point of electing an African American as President for the first time, maybe there's hope that one day we'll be receptive to having a woman as President! It could happen."
The SBC will first have to change the 2000 BF&M before anything can change as it relates to the roles of women.
Can this happen?
Wow, Tom, do you really believe that most Southern Baptists agree with Bruce Ware's comments? I don't really think that his extreme outlook is a product of the “Fundamentalist Takeover” of SBC, do you?
I'm not Tom, but I believe those in the SBC who are "large and in charge" most definitely agree with Ware's sentiments. In what context could what he said ever mean something different? And if they don't agree with him, why don't they ever rebuke him? Or at the very least say they disagree?
I was listening to an Adrian Rogers sermon on Love Worth Finding yesterday. (AR was a charter member of CBMW.) The subject was "The Key To A Magnificent Marriage." (I'm not sure if this was before or after his daughter got a divorce which seemed to soften his views on "the perfect Christian marriage.") Anyway, his first point was the husband and wife sticking to their proper "Biblical roles." He said smugly, "If that offends you, you can come up to me after the service and apologize, and I'll forgive you."
New BBC Open Forum:
It is real simple in SB life--you either repeat the party line or you are dead meat and you never challenge what the higher ups say.
you either repeat the party line or you are dead meat and you never challenge what the higher ups say
Sadly, it is true of politics and life in US. Especially in the past 12 years.
Glenn Greenwald > Film highlights the temptations and perils of blind obedience to authority
Thy Peace:
You said:"you either repeat the party line or you are dead meat and you never challenge what the higher ups say
Sadly, it is true of politics and life in US. Especially in the past 12 years."
How sad it is that the SBC has become like a political machine and if you want to be a part of it you can never say a dissenting word.
I think the fear factor is a real factor in a lot of the votes taken.
Tom,
Enlighten me. Where does the BF&M address women not being qualified to fill the role of President of the SBC? Thanks.
RRR:
The SBC will never allow a woman to be the President when she can not be a pastor.
If it is not plainly spelled out, it is there by inference.
I hope that enlightens you.
The authoritarianism in the SBC is scary because it nearly creates a "second gospel" for women.
By separating men and women, husbands and wives (which Jesus said one is not to do, since they are one flesh), the authoritarian doctrine reduces to a degree the woman's humanity, the part of her that is created in God's image.
The reasoning, feeling, deciding aspect that God placed in her is scoffed, vilified and ultimately, denied. The logical conclusion of this is that if some parts of the Gospel don't apply to her...those that deal with exercising God-given gifts in accordance with the Holy Spirit, or 'judging for yourself'...then the temptation can be to believe that the rest of God's Word isn't "for" women, either.
I believe, personally, that there are dark spirits associated with the patriarchal movement in our churches.
Tom says, "The SBC will never allow a woman to be the President when she can not be a pastor."
This said after he said that the BF&M forbids women being SBC President, which it does not.
Then Anonymous says; "I believe, personally, that there are dark spirits associated with the patriarchal movement in our churches".
In my estimation this is an accusation against his Christian brothers saying that they are agents of Satan. That's the only source of "dark spirits" of which I'm aware.
Makes me wonder who are the “bad guys”?
RRR:
This said after he said that the BF&M forbids women being SBC President, which it does not."
I said no such a thing. You know as well as I do if the SBC will not allow a woman to pastor a church and have authority over men the SBC is not going to elect a woman President. I will be as bold to say the SBC will never elect a woman president.
Me thinks you are just trying to be contentious, and I try my best to not play that game anymore.
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