This past Saturday the New York Times ran a sympathetic article about Arkansas Democratic Senator Blanche Lincoln and the vicious radio and print attacks against her in her home state of Arkansas. The ads "take Lincoln to task for voting to allow the Senate debate on health care legislation to proceed and voting 'against our values' on abortion." The New York Times postulates that Senator Lincoln is in for a rough political fight as she attempts to be re-elected in 2010. Some are calling this Senatorial race in Arkansas the most important election in the United States in 2010.However, the largest hurdle for Lincoln's re-election to the Senate in 2010, at least in my opinion, is not her fateful vote on health care. Her greatest obstacle comes in the form of a politically astute, well connected, former prizewinning columnist--a Southern Baptist named David Sanders. David Sanders? Yep. He agreed last week to become the campaign manager for Stanley Reed in Reed's attempt to obtain Lincoln's Senate seat. In my estimation, Stanley Reed, a man with character, financial means, and genuine conservative intellectualism will defeat the other seven Republican candidates in the May primary and will then face Lincoln in the general election in November 2010. But it will be David Sanders who will make it happen. I've seen him at work. From his office in Little Rock, David will run Reed's campaign with the spirit of a dove but the wisdom of a serpent--that's a compliment for those of you who don't know it comes from Jesus' words to His disciples (Matthew 10:16).
A couple of columnists have questioned David's integrity for leaving his job with Stephens Media after writing columns that questioned Lincoln's ability to represent the Arkansas people, and then closing out his column extolling the exciting possibilities of newcomer Stanley Reed.
Those of us who know David Sanders personally laugh at such questions regarding his integrity. David's the kind of person who tells you what he thinks, regardless of how it affects him personally, and what he thinks resonates with intellectual conservatives like Reed and the Republicans of Arkansas. I am friends with Southern Baptists who make their living in the political world--men and women from both sides of the aisle. David Sanders is a man who is making a difference. As soon as the kids are grown, I look forward to David and Becca being in the Governor's Mansion themselves in Arkansas. Until then, the recepient of his political acumen is Stanley Reed.The 2010 Senate race in Arkansas is going to be a humdinger.
In His Grace,
Wade Burleson
267 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 267 of 267Joe--
Your tail should be bleeding by now with Christiane's logical responses.
I don't have to debate with you---L's is the master and I defer to her (oh my God) female wisdom!!!
You don't want to see my win / loss statistics---they make you look pitiful!!!!
Hello Gene,
When you said 'tail-bite' I thought about my grand-dogs: the little Boston likes to bite the enormous pit-bull. Then, the chase is off!
After much playing, the pit bull gets tired of the game. She gets tail-bite, runs over and places her paw on the back of the little Boston and makes him sit down and rest. Cutest thing I ever saw!
Gosh, have I been tail-biting Joe?
I'm sorry. Time for a 'paws'. :)
Love, L's
" We have lost a lot of our civility in this country. We need to regain it in order to work towards the 'common good'."
What is your definition of civility? I found this comment by you quite uncivil and a backhanded insult to anyone votes Republican:
"There are a lot of Christian people out there who are not of the Republican 'persuasion' on grounds of moral law and conscience."
Christiane, you talk out of both sides of your mouth.
"I found this comment by you quite uncivil and a backhanded insult to anyone votes Republican:
"There are a lot of Christian people out there who are not of the Republican 'persuasion' on grounds of moral law and conscience." "
LYDIA
Correct me if I am wrong here:
What you are saying is that you feel I have insulted you personally and all Republicans by stating that there are Christians out there who, because of their own moral values and their own personal consciences, are now disagreeing with the policies of Republicans.?
If I follow this logically, all Republicans feel insulted personally when they are disagreed with, on the grounds of personal conviction?
Begging your pardon, but wouldn't it be more logical for Republicans to admit that there may be people out there who honestly disagree with them on the issues and manage to do it respectfully?
When my brother voted Republican, I respected his choice.
If you can't respect a person's right to choose what political party they support or do not support, that's one thing.
But, if a person must agree with you, or you feel insulted, that's another thing.
Please correct me, if I am misunderstanding you.
But, if a person must agree with you, or you feel insulted, that's another thing.
Please correct me, if I am misunderstanding you.
Thu Dec 17, 07:07:00 PM 2009
Of course you know that is not correct or what I meant.
but you are way to slick for me. See, I thought you were implying that anyone who voted Republican believed in immoral laws and had no conscience. That would be the logic outcome of what you originally wrote. But then with all your innuendos and teaching on logic, you now want me to believe that is not what you meant. Why not just say you are revising your position?
But I do know that if one starts with a wrong premise on A....D will always be wrong.
It is really big of you to love your republican voting brother who once believed in immoral laws and had no conscience. :o)
Good old Joe now becomes the eternal Judge of Mormons!!
I happen to know a few who put to shame any Baptist claiming to love God and his neighbor as himself.
By the way, Mormons believe in God just like us. Jesus as the Christ just like us. They just have another testament as to Jesus' coming to the Western Hemisphere in addition to his appearance in the East.
Personally, I don't need another Bible, but I honor their integrity and faith.
If Baptists believed in witnessing and helping fellow church members half as much as Mormons---we might just be growing like they are!!!
"If Baptists believed in witnessing and helping fellow church members half as much as Mormons---we might just be growing like they are!!!"
They are a cult Gene. A cult that most certainly does not believe in the God of Christianity, nor the Christ of Christianity. It's not just the book of Mormon. You really should read before correcting others. For goodness' sake, first abortionists, now Mormons. It seems the only ones you can't accept are orthodox Christian brothers and sisters!
"See, I thought you were implying that anyone who voted Republican believed in immoral laws and had no conscience"
No. I wasn't implying that.
I believe many people of faith have honestly aligned themselves with the Republican party out of deep conviction.
I'm just not real sure that the Republican party is good enough for THEM. Love, L's
"I'm just not real sure that the Republican party is good enough for THEM."
I can see that. Political parties are part of this present evil age, not the age to come. All political parties, even old European ones with the name Christian attached to them.
Christiane, it seems we have gone full circle to find out you did not mean what you originally said after all.
Oh well. Guess I will never learn.
The news about health care reform just keeps getting better and better.
However, the works not over. Let's keep the pressure up and see if we can't get a bill passed that has nothing Obama wanted.
Gene,
If you're stupid enough to believe that Mormons are Christians just like us, and I have no doubt that you are that stupid, then I pity you. Rubbing elbows at that Methodist school left you so open minded what brain you had leaked out.
Probably not helpful, Joe.
Hi LYDIA,
"Christiane, it seems we have gone full circle to find out you did not mean what you originally said after all.
Oh well. Guess I will never learn."
Well, Lydia, at least we were willing to go around the circle . . . this is good.
Republican or Democrat?
Remember that radio station or was it TV that said, “The story has not changed, only the names of the people have changed”?
I grew up in a county that had Sam Rayburn. He and my father were best of friends. My wife was in a county that had a total of one Republican. Now those counties are largely Republican.
I will repeat, have the people changed? No…only the names have changed.
Joe--2 issues good questions:
(1) You rave about 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions being performed in great numbers-----SHOW ME THE STATISTICS!!!
If it is like most of your raves, it is based on nothing but pro-life information. They wouldn't be biased and lie like Bush did on Weapons of Mass Destruction?????
(2) Mormons not Christian---
(a)How many Mormons do you know?
(b) I thought the Bible in Romans 10:9 was pretty clear--"believe in you heart and confess with your mouth"-- I have yet to meet a Mormon who does not believe that Jesus is The Christ--it is even in their church title when Baptists don't have it on their sign!
If you want to really piss me off, keep up those 2 lies without apology and you will see how Emory logic will reduce your flimsey religion to mush!!!!
Lydia,
Just my two cents worth, but I don't think Christine was insulting you, or making the implication you think she was. I have noticed that quite a few people in the world--and I think it includes you, and know it includes me, at least sometimes--have a tendency to universalize statements, then run with them to a conclusion which, however logical it may seem, goes far beyond what the original speaker intended. To move from "There are a lot of Christian people out there who are not of the Republican 'persuasion' on grounds of moral law and conscience" to "Christine called me immoral and without a conscience" requires L's statement to mean "ONLY those who are not of the 'Republican persuasion' are so on the grounds of moral law and conscience, therefore those who are 'of the Republican persuasion' are immoral and void of a conscious." I did not take it that way, and I do not think she meant it that way. To put in into our Southern Baptist language, she meant her words as a "minimalist" statement, but you took them as a "maximumist" one. Logic does not work that way, however. If I tell you, "My wife is a beautiful woman," it is not an insult to you or other women; I am not implying "Other women are ugly," I am not saying anything at all about other women. By the same token, L's was not saying anything about people who do not vote Republican, she was only saying that non-Republican voters can be that way because of their morality and conscience systems. I suspect her motivation was the implication (or outright statements) here on this blog that to fail to vote Republican to is vote for immoral and unGodly baby-killers, and in fact to be one by proxy. (Hi Joe!)
John
Darby--
The only thing I can't tolerate is an ignorant / biased / judgmental fellow Christian!!
We both believe in the same Saviour. We read the same Bible which I refer to as "inspired" while your kind must have "inerrant." A few blogs ago this issues was addressed, but it seems to have no effect on your understanding. Now the CR professors at Seminaries are saying what my "liberal" professors taught at SEBTS 1967-70.
If you claim I am an infidel for asking some good questions and offering a wider perspective, It comes to me as one afraid of his own shadow---maintaining a stance of fear instead of enjoying how the light of day drives out demons of fear and ignorance!
If you are truely happy with your views, that is fine with me. If I scare you as much as you seem to indicate, maybe your faith just can't stand any questions WHATSOEVER!!!!
Gene,
It astounds me that Wade allows you to post profanity here. it doesn't surprise me that you use it--someone of your character and class displays that class by their speech.
Mormons say that Jesus is a created being and the spirit brother of Lucifer. Christians know that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity and was not created. Mormons have a different Jesus.
Mormons say that God was once a man and attained godhood. He became god of this universe and that there are other gods of other universes. They teach that a person can live a good enough life, attain that same kind of godhood and if they marry a Mormon in a temple ceremony they too can create their own universe. In contrast, Christians know that there is only one God in three Persons, there are no other gods, and that God has always been God. He was never a man. Mormons have a different God.
Mormons believe that, to attain the highest heaven, you have to follow certain regulations (tithing, performing work for the church, yadda, yadda, yadda). Christians believe to be saved you must repent of your sins, trust in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection alone (no sacrements) to save you, and that evidence of this salvation will be the bearing of spiritual fruit. Mormons have a different gospel based on works.
Different God, Different Jesus, Different Gospel. Yeah, Gene, Mormons are Christians.
Gene,
You don't scare me brother. At all. I've never called you an infidel or any other name. I prefer to stick to issues, and I think a quick review of my comments would prove that.
My concern is when folks could go and read Mormon documents plastered all over the web and realize that they don't believe the same things about Jesus that the Bible says about him, but instead they want to accuse people who know better of being scared and judgmental.
If I told you I'm a Christian, but my interpretation of Christ is a red-headed pixie from the planet Dracas who is wanting people to self-actualize so he can eat their fully developed brains, would you accept me as a brother in Christ? Really? If you wouldn't, then I have a hard time seeing how you accept Mormons whose ideas are only slightly less whacked out. Read Joe's post explaining some Mormon views. I know you question Joe's intelligence, but if he can find this stuff, and you haven't, what does that say about you?
You rave about 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions being performed in great numbers-----SHOW ME THE STATISTICS!!!
Show me where I mentioned ONCE that 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are being performed in great numbers. Oh, that's right, you can't because I never made that point. My point was that most abortions are not taking place because of rape, incest, or a threat to the life of the mother.
You're welcome.
"Show me where I mentioned ONCE that 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are being performed in great numbers."
Most books written by abortion providers are very honest about second trimester abortions and don't try to hide their colleagues who perform later term abortions. The info is out there for those who have the stomach to look. It's heartbreaking when people parrot pro-abortion mantras like, "second and third trimester abortions are rare," without taking the time to research it.
Profanity---what profanity????
It is profane to me that you guys are so focused on some "wierd" concept of Mormonism, you miss totally my basic point:
They, like us, believe Jesus is the Christ!!!
I fail to see how their "earning their way into heaven" is any different than you wanting to destroy anyone and kick them out if they do not bow to your narrow view of religion and its Baptist interpretation!!!
All the extreme requirements for the Mormon brand of Christianity are identical to your "thou must believe ..." brand of Baptmon religion---do you not see this???
ABORTION:
Now you are trying to change the focus and get royal confusion going.
I simply asked for stats--so far you have none!
Even with stats, there is need for more compassion for those troubled women who have gone this route and feel condemned by people like you 2 guys---who never carried a baby in the womb you don't have!
Joe, et.al.---
Here is the main Mormon website my good Mormon friends (2) have recommended I use to find out more about them.
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
I would rather get my information straight from the horse's mouth rather from some Baptist Study Course or articles from the NAMB.
I well remember my teenage years at Ridgecrest when a former Irish Catholic priest served as the HMB "liason" with American Roman Catholics. His hostility to their practices shown through to the point he was focused on differences to the neglect of similarities.
I will pretty safely bet money such is the case with today's information cited as critical of our fellow Christians: Mormons.
You rave about 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions being performed in great numbers-----SHOW ME THE STATISTICS!!!
I never once said anything about 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions. I don't have and don't need statitics. Statistics don't prove that abortion is wrong and should not be legal. The Bible does that, thank you very much. The fact that abortions are not because of incest, rape, and for saving the life of the mother in the majority of cases. Christians realize that it should not be legal and therefore do not support baby-murderer candidates.
Cop out, Joe--cop out!!!!
In case you don't know, it means you are running from the question in good 60's hippie lingo!
By the way---
The concepts of the Bible have no understanding of impregnation / gestation / embryology / micro biology / endocrine function in causing birth--lactation--recovery.
Their understanding was quite primative. Up until the last 70 years many women died in childbirth and infection than you can imagine. My own wife developed a serious infection with our first little girl. Thanks to a dedicated and loving Doctor who was a Preacher's son of one of my dad's friends, her life was saved through proper anti-biotics administered quickly!
I advocate modern medicine as the source of miracles today. Jesus said, "Greater things than this you will see . . ." and I am assured he meant advances in medical science which allow us to prolong life as well as to wisely keep women from suffering with unwanted pegnancies.
"Just my two cents worth, but I don't think Christine was insulting you, or making the implication you think she was."
I never took it as a personal insult. I took it as Christiane doing what she does best.
"We both believe in the same Saviour. We read the same Bible which I refer to as "inspired" while your kind must have "inerrant." A few blogs ago this issues was addressed, but it seems to have no effect on your understanding."
So, you think the Angel, Moroni, buried a special word to Joe Smith in upstate NY? And taught that Jesus and Lucifer are spiritual brothers?
The pimply faced 'elders' that come to my door at least every 6 mos try to convince me that they are Christian and believe the same things I do. So, I ask them why they are trying to recruit me then? (I don't think their trainers prepared them well)
Anyhoo, their literature looked a lot like what the mega down the street puts out. Mormonism is going seeker sensitive. Maybe Warren is consulting with them like he did the Muslims.
Lydia--
It would be wise to treat those young missionaries with all due respect. They are giving up 2 years of their lives to serve the church just as our volunteer missionaries do.
You will not change them or convert them because they are sincerely dedicated to their mission. If Baptists took their soul winning and ministry half as seriously, we might be growing rather than declining.
I do not buy into their story in any way. I am content with my body of Scripture without the Book of Mormon and it's story which I do no buy into either.
HOWEVER, I respect the dedication of the missionaries and I give them room to believe and help people with that belief to find the Joy of Salvation we are supposed to have.
Questions: Do you have the "Joy of Salvation?" Do you have a "Peace that passes understanding?"
Please give me and L's an honest answer. She is your great adversary just as Joe and his buddies are to me. I don't mind debating as long as we do so in a spirit of love and Autonomy.
"Questions: Do you have the "Joy of Salvation?" Do you have a "Peace that passes understanding?""
Gene, Do you care whether folks are damned to hell or not? How come you do not love them enough to tell them the truth? With tears in your eyes and love in your heart you HAVE to tell them the truth. Their eternal life depends on planting the seeds that others can water. and PRAY!
Is it because you might believe that all roads eventually lead to Jesus?
For some reason you guys seem to think that any proclaiming truth on this blog or somewhere else means I beat up on 18 year old Mormon 'elders'.
Allright my conservative compatriots---you have not responded very quickly to my Mormon belief guidance.
S-O-O-O-O here is the specific statement concerning the nature and belief that Jesus is The Christ:
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=735b862384d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=e1fa5f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&hideNav=true
Somebody in this discussion is mis-informed or simply lying! Which is it?????
I don't mind debating as long as we do so in a spirit of love and Autonomy.
Fri Dec 18, 04:38:00 PM 2009
Gene, You crack me up. You have been extremely vitriolic even insulting both Joe and Darby's wives way back on this thread.
But I am glad you are at least direct about it. I prefer that over backhanded insults, deception and sugery innuendos.
Gene, It is a cult. You expect them to advertise that?
Lydia--
I have met for extensive discussion with one of the Ward leaders in N. Metro Atlanta. We engaged in heart-to-heart discussion. We understood one another! He was so much more well-informed and mature than any 20ish missionary!
My main question was: "If you claim to have golden texts dug up in upstate NY, then they are made of imperishible gold. I trust in documents within 100-400 years of the original writings---all made of perishible parchment. I can look at my original writing as best they are----
NOW, why can you not produce anything beyond several "witnesses" who vow they saw the tablets?????
That is as far as I could take it. The same is true for you! It all boils down to what you are willing to take the leap of faith over.
I am comfortable with taking that leap using our sctiptures and some others not in the Canon as my "reliable source."
As I told my Morman friend, "I am content with my body of Scripture and it gives me the 'Joy of Salvaton' and 'a peace that passes understanding.' I hope yours does the same for you!"
He dusted his shoes off as he left my church office. We both had smiles on our faces. He was happy and so was I. He failed to win a Baptist Preacher to his faith--it would have been a great coup for him.
I didn't change him, but I understood his faith much better than before our discussions. I believe we will both rejoice in meeting again in Heaven---because we are both secure in our faith in Jesus, the Christ, God's immanant Son!
Does this give you a clue where I am coming from, my dear???
Lydia--
It is very interesting you would compare a "mega down the street" with Mormon missionaries. Also that you would mention Rick Warren.
Would you please elaborate????
Does this give you a clue where I am coming from, my dear???
Fri Dec 18, 05:11:00 PM 2009
I know exactly where you are coming from. I have MANY Mormon friends. They are all around me. My dentist is a Mormon. A big Mormon church is about a mile away.
So, what was your point? :o)
I do not want them to burn in hell and they know it. And they know my door is always open to them.
"It is very interesting you would compare a "mega down the street" with Mormon missionaries."
The Mormon literature had the almost exact slogan the mega uses with their marketing about finding happiness.
" Also that you would mention Rick Warren.Would you please elaborate????"
I posted some stuff on the latest thread.
Cop out, Joe--cop out!!!!
I don't know how many 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions are performed. I also don't care. It doesn't matter WHEN it is done in the pregnancy. The Bible calls murder "sin". Christians recognize that. Deal with it.
With the things that have come out of the CR that I did not agree with, they are worth it if it means something like you is not allowed any input or influence in the SBC. Any pain that you, your friends, or your family suffered during that period wasn't nearly as bad as you deserved.
Lydia--
It saddens me to think you are condemning people to Hell whom you really might like.
What is the problem with agreeing to disagree and respect one another's genuine faith though it be different???
Joe--
It saddens me to know how mean and self-centered you are.
With people like you running the SBC show, it will surely continue to fail and become smaller.
How sad!!!!
"It saddens me to think you are condemning people to Hell whom you really might like."
I don't. The Word says that believing that Jesus Christ is Messiah is necessary to be saved. No one can come to the Father but by Jesus Christ.
There is no Angel, Moroni.
Mormon doctrine does not teach that. It is that simple. No matter whta they say. If he believes that Jesus Christ is Messiah, he would not be a Mormon.
Perhaps like many Christians who never read the Word, he has never read the Book of Mormon and believes whatever they say.
Gene, we are going round and round. Your attempts to claim that I am condeming folks just does not bother me a bit. I am used to it. If you can show me in the Word where one can believe in something other than Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh, let me know.
Perhaps you need to study what Mormonism really is instead of believing what ONE guy says it is.
Our good friend, Cheryl Schatz, has a ministry to JW's and Mormons. Perhaps she could explain it better to you.
"With people like you running the SBC show, it will surely continue to fail and become smaller."
You need to be more open minded Gene. Joe is NOT SBC and he and I vehemetly disagree about the CR and women in ministry. But I always know where he stands.
Lydia--
The Mormons start their relationship with our kind of Christianity with what Jesus says: "I have other sheep ye know not of."
They are not lying about the passage!
They passionately believe their story and always start their witness with: "I share with you what I believe ..." I am just willing to give them the room to express their belief as long as it is sincere.
I will gladly leave the judging to God! He knows things none or us in our human knowledge can know.
I could care less whether you or Joe are of CR--if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, by golly--it might just be a duck!!!
Lydia--
Please read the Mormon declaration about Jesus, the Christ, and see if you can stick with your arrogant answer???
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=735b862384d20110VgnVCM100000176f620a
If we "go round and round" it is because you refuse to go to an accurate source of Mormon faith.
Gene
It saddens me to know that your mother didn't have a legal right to an abortion to exercise in the 9 months prior to your birth.
Oh, I'm just kidding just like you were in previous comments when you decided to make a lewd comment and include my wife. :o)
Oh, and liking someone doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they believe what they need to believe to be saved.
I'll ask a simple question. You're not man enough to honestly answer it and your non-answer will prove my point. Was Jesus Christ a created being and the spirit brother of Lucifer or was He the second Person of the Trinity, co-eternal, co-equal, and co-substantial with God?
He can't be both.
That statement, by the way, is not "one guy," but the LDS public web site expressing the same stuff our BF&M 2000 states (for better or worse.)
By the way, Gene, do you sound like Larry the Cable guy? Cause when I read your ignorant, rude, and theologically empty "comments" that's the voice I hear in my head. Fits your intelligence level to a T.
Joe--
Somehow I don't believe you are "just kiding." Would that make you a possible liar?????
With respect to Jesus, the Christ, I already clearly stated to my Mormon friend that I did not need another set of Scriptures when I was experiencing the "joy of salvation" and "peace that passes understanding" through my 66 books of my Bible (Canon).
I go with what Jesus claims for himself in scripture. I don't even need a Creed from Nicea or one from the 2000 SBC.
Martin Luther put it well: "Sola Scriptorum!"
Capiche???????
Git-ur-done, Joe!!!!
Larry the Cable Guy, at least has a sense of humor!!!!
He also makes better sense than you 'cause he tends to tell it like it is---not what Conservative Republicans want it to be.
What Jesus claimed for Himself, full equality with God, is not the Jesus Mormons believe in.
Oh, and I meant it just as much as you meant it when you said it was just as joke.
If we "go round and round" it is because you refuse to go to an accurate source of Mormon faith.
Fri Dec 18, 06:33:00 PM 2009
Gene, if your friend was a Christian, what was he trying to convert you to? Christianity?
Joe--
Now, be honest--have you read the statement on the LDS website???
I don't think so!!!
Lydia--
What is dishonest about the LDS website itself???
Is there a more accurate or honest place to find out what Mormons believe. The persons who referred me there are Col. James Dooley, USMC (ret.), one of my high school friends--and another knowledgeble Mormon I met under the USA Today article: "Are Mormons Christians?"
You can google that one if you want to get into some real discussion and understanding with some real and honest Mormons.
It does not appear to me you have had discussions with anyone other than a critic of Mormons.
Proverbs 26:4. That's my last comment here.
It does not appear to me you have had discussions with anyone other than a critic of Mormons.
Fri Dec 18, 06:58:00 PM 2009
Gene, I have read extensively on not only the history of Mormonism but of their bizarre doctrine. Some of it is secret and not made public. Sort of like the Freemasons on steriods.
Right now, I am finding it bizarre that I am engaging a former Baptist preacher on whether or not Mormons are Christians and believe in the same Jesus Christ.
Again, I ask you what your friend was trying to convert you to? If it was Christianity, why bother with you?
On second thought. Nevermind. Darby makes a good point.
Lydia--
The Mormon in N. Atlanta had one of my church members become a Mormon. The church member told Bob Borg I was curious in hearing directly from a knowledgable Morman more about their religion. Bob was hoping to convert me, but it simply did not work. Nevertheless, we left the conversations as appreciative friends.
My high school friend has recently retired in the midwest, and we have conversed enough that I know he is very happy with his faith despite being a Baptist when we were growing up.
Now, I am the first one to admit they have some strange ideas which do not appeal to me. In fact, despite Bob's claims that they view the Book of Mormon as "equal to" and "alongside" our Bible, it was obvious to me he really viewed it as superior.
Just because they are different from us Baptists does not give us the right to dismiss them as a Cult--that is just another derrogatory term of superiority on our part.
I do not understand how us regular Christians should dismiss them when it is obvious their view of Christ is essentially the same as ours---per the statement I cited.
If they are lying, it should become apparent in time. I think they would be foolish to say one thing in a public statement and really believe another.
I admit us Baptists say a lot of stuff about loving God and loving one another when, in reality, we are fighting like cats and dogs. The public is not fooled either by us or by Mormons---they are just growing a lot better than us.
I wonder why????
The Mormon in N. Atlanta had one of my church members become a Mormon.
Considering the depth (snicker) of your exegesis (haa) as displayed on Wade's blog comment threads, that really doesn't come as much of a surprise.
Gene,
My dad would tell me, “Rex you’re always right. But when you’re wrong, you’re dead wrong!”
I’m sorry to say that I wasted a lot of time writing and reading 35,538 words on my blog arguing with a Mormon named Scott. Each of us tried to convince the other where we were wrong on our views of the Bible and Jesus.
One foolish comment was him saying the Bible referred to Joseph Smith in (Ezekiel 37:19): “…Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph…”
Scott was correct in the Bible referring to Smith, but it was (Colossians 2:18 NLT):
“Don’t let anyone [Scott] condemn you by insisting on pious self-denial or the worship of ANGELS, saying they [Smith] have had VISIONS about these things. Their sinful minds have made them proud, and they are not connected to Christ…”
Scott said:
“Our knowledge comes directly from the personal experience of Joseph Smith, who, while yet a boy, spoke with God the Eternal Father and His Beloved Son, the Risen Lord. He knelt in Their presence; he heard Their voices; and he responded.
The translation of the Book of Mormon is a miracle in itself and gives further proof of the book's divine origin. Oliver Cowdery arrived in Harmony, Pennsylvania, on April 5, 1829, to serve as the Prophet's scribe.
On May 15, 1829, they went to the woods near the Susquehanna River and knelt in prayer… The angel introduced himself as John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament. He laid his hands upon the heads of Joseph and Oliver and said:
"Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.”
A short time later, the Apostles Peter, James, and John appeared, placed their hands on the heads of these two fellow servants, and conferred the Melchizedek Priesthood.
After Christ died and organized the preaching of the gospel in the Spirit World, (See Doctrine and Covenants, Section 138 for a full accounting of this doctrine) all mankind, from the beginning of time to the person who had just died, was taught the gospel. It was taught by all the prophets of old and other righteous men who lived on this earth. And you Mr. Rex Ray, will be taught the true gospel of Jesus Christ within a year after you die on this earth.”
Scott kept saying, “Please show me where Jesus says I must call out to Him and commands me to ask for Him to save me and then I will be saved!!!!”
Despite all the Scripture I quoted him he would not ask Jesus into his heart.
Gene, you said, “They are just growing a lot better than us. I wonder why?”
They may witness and ‘grow better’ because they believe by doing ‘works’ they are saved. They don’t look upon Jesus as their Saviour, but as an example of how they can become their own God.
Joe--
I hate to tell you, but he became a Mormon over the evil and wicked way Noonday Baptist Church had fired its Pastor--BEFORE ME!!!
I met this man as I was visiting inactive members--which most Pastors no longer bother to do.
Now, I have had about enough of your derogatory comment old Conservative Republican blind and dumb sheep being led to the slaughter---that was more biblical than political, if you notice.
By the way, have you had the guts to read the Christological statement on the Mormon web site????? Betcha haven't!
"P-u-u-uck, P-u-u-uck," said Joe, the chicken!!!
Rex--
The mistake most Christian / Baptist apologists make is trying to argue a Mormon away from his church. Most of them are far better trained in their faith and paractice than us "glorified country club" Baptists. Our reason for "joining the church," more often than not, has to do with social acceptability than a sincere profession that Jesus is the Christ and Lord of my life!
In the case of most converted Mormons from Baptist, etc., is that the person is seeking sincerely after having been disappointed with his Baptist/whatever church activities and lack of real faith commitment.
Mormons have very "definite" beliefs starting with they have a "better" understanding of real Christianity because of Joseph Smith's discovery of golden tablets and the Prophet Maroni helping him use the plinum and thumum to translate it into a text sounding too much like the KJV English for me to buy the whole story!
As I stated before, my question to my new Mormon friend was, "If you have a text of gold, which is imperrishible material, why can't you show it to me? I base my trust on Scriptures written on parchment which is perishable. Although I cannot show you an original, I CAN touch and use perishible parchments withing 60-400 years of the original writing!"
Good questions are the only thing to use in discussions with Mormons. Drop the question bomb / stop trying to prove them wrong / let their seeking mind come up with answers which I don't think can be found.
BUT they are winning the race for converts over most other denominations. They just opened a brand new Temple in Raleigh a couple of year ago. They had open house prior to its consecration for only higher Mormon member to use. Those who attended the local LDS church, have proven themselves to be worthy of Temple attendance througt their works within the Mormon traditions and specifications (they are high and serious works).
It was a fascinating facility putting to shame any Baptist Church I have ever seen. It's beauty and bright colors, on a small scale, rival the beauty of great Cathedrals I have seen in England and Europe. I have visited the Salt Lake City Temple and been equally amazed at the sight. To see the white / sky blue / gold-trimmed rooms make one sure that Carolina sky blue must have mormon leanings!!! At least those UNC folks worship their basketball team even though most would rather attend the ACC Tournament than a revival! Beat 'um GT Jackets!!!!!!
(cont.)
Here are a few of the "strange" things I saw for myself at Raleigh as opposed to hearing about them as Mormons described the great temple at Salt Lake:
A Consecration Room--
It is a beautiful room where families come for their "sealing ritual" which seals husband / wife / children for all eternity. This means they are assured of being together throughout eternity.
That same room contains the baptismal font which they enter at the ceremony. They can do this "sealing ritual" for ancestors who were not Mormon so they, too, can enter Eternity by substitute baptism.
All this tells me their psychological need to overcome the fear of death and separation are answered in a ritual and physical activities! I believe it can only be addressed by total faith in Christ who promised us the same ressurection he experienced. No ritual or works will ever get you there.
Prior to participating they have a separate dressing from for females and males of any age. They have white robes these family members put on prior to entering the main chamber. As a non-Mormon visitor I had to wear surgical slipovers as did everyone--they didn't want their Temple defiled by the feet of non-Mormons.
There is other stuff I witnessed for myself. The Real Reason I won't ever become a Mormon is, on that afternoon, I rode up in my car smoking my beloved pipe with good Captain Black "white pouch" tobacco blend. The men attending the parking lot immediately informed me smoking was not permitted on the grounds if I would kindly put out my pipe.
Sorry---but God created the best tobacco grown in the world in Eastern, NC. Captain Black, using it, is blended and processed right next door to where I grew up outside Atlanta: Tucker. Despite being Clarkston High School's arch rival, they make it so good I will overlook the blasted Tucker Tigers.
If Mormons get between me and my relaxing pipe, smoked in moderation, I'll just stay Baptist the rest of my life---despite the fact few, if any, will go out knocking on doors trying to win searching and disappointed-in-their-church seekers to try a church which is more than a "Glorified Social Club."
Now, I have had about enough of your derogatory comment
Um, does the phrase "Suck it up and deal with it" mean anything to you? Or how about "Why don't you pretend you're man enough to do something about it?" I sure wish you were close enough to try.
I should thank you, however, for being living proof that liberalism, theological and political, is a mental disorder.
As far as their statement on Jesus Christ, much of it sounds similar to what a real Christian would say. I mean, it's short and they sure don't want to go too in depth explaining the particulars of their soul-damning doctrines, but I did notice this:
He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
What they don't explain is that by "Firstborn" they mean He is seperate from God. That Jesus is divine but is not God, which is exactly what I said that they believe.
As of this, I am done with you on this thread and any other that you decide to post your putrid filth on. Pearls before swine and all that, ya know. Oops, I didn't mean to bring your wife into this. Just kidding!!! :o)
Rex Ray said:
Gene, you said, “They are just growing a lot better than us. I wonder why?”
They may witness and ‘grow better’ because they believe by doing ‘works’ they are saved. They don’t look upon Jesus as their Saviour, but as an example of how they can become their own God.
Gene responds:
Actually, Rex, what you are saying applies to too many of the Baptists I have know in churches I tried to serve with honesty.
They didn't want me reading clearly from the Bible about the seriousness of not confessing your own sins--and insead of doing what Baptists do best: "CONFESSING THE SINS OF OTHERS!" Some even went so far as to accuse me of preaching things not in the Bible.
It's bad when people won't even read for themselves in a plain English translation what the Bible clearly says. It is even more a shame when they try to deny it is even in the Bible and talk behind you back accusing you of not being a biblical preacher.
It's a shame that some of us "supposed followers of Christ" might end up being goats instead of sheep admitted to the fold!
By the way, Joe, et.al, part of that judgement depends on loving and forgiving one another. It might even have to do with agreeing to disagree with all due respect.
In my opinion, loving is more important than winning!!! Even if GT gets beat by UNC, I'm not going to have a fist fight with UNC fans living within eyesight of me. Between UNC / Duke / NC State I'm so outnumbered it's not funny!!
BUT when GT wins the ACC football championship, I just smile a lot and keep on strolling down the lovely lanes of Bayview, near Bath, NC. Beautiful sunsets are more important than who won the game today.
Joe--
What is the problem with the Morman statement reading as it reads instead of you reading something you say into it?
Just as you pretend to know how to read you pretend to be an intelligent Christian and call me every name in the book.
You, my brother, are living proof of my Grandaddy's addage:
THE HIGHER THE MONKEY CLIMBS THE TREE----
THE MORE YOU SEE HIS TAIL!!!
Joe--
I am throwing the pearls at you and others.
I can't help the grandpa's monkey has now become a pig in the pig pen. I used to help grandaddy slop the hogs. They loved anything left over from the table: food scraps, mellon rinds, anything that wouldn't burn went to the slop bucked.
Any pearls would totally have been missed in their hast to fill their fat bellies. They would push and shove to get their nose in the trough. All the squeeling and grunting sounded awful, but the only thing they would really seriously fight over was a sow in heat.
Grandpa fixed that problem with a knife when they were young--so who castrated you???
It's all mouth over food with no ability to enjoy the height of ecstacy by loving one another as Christ has loved us.
I'll forgive you even if you refuse to talk with me further.
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