This video from Pecan Manor gives you a peek into the Presidential Home of Drs. Paige and Dorothy Patterson for Christmas 2009. It's a very interesting video for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is the opportunity to see the incredibly beautiful Christmas trees throughout the Presidential mansion and the tasteful, seasonal decorations throughout the home. While narrating the video, Dorothy Patterson mentions the need for prayer for Southwestern during these days of "national crises" and for the students, trustees, and professors who are having to bear burdens that are not of their own making. I join with the Pattersons in praying for the Lord's blessings at Southwestern Theological Seminary.However, according to the Christmas edition of the alumni magazine, sent to all SWBTS alumni by the Seminary public relations department, not all the news coming out of SWBTS is cause for concern. One of the reasons for "celebration" is the growth of The Horner Homemaking House. Students enrolled in the "homemaking" degree program at SWBTS were housed for the first time in Horner this fall. I quote from the alumni magazine the reasons given for celebrating what God is doing at SWBTS:
"What excitement is found in the Meal Preparation classes working out of a pristine culinary center! (What excitement is found) in the Clothing Construction classes taught in a large room with sewing machines for every student and all other necessary accoutrements for learning this important craft! Bountiful "showers" are being hosted to help us add needed equipment and resources.
Without a doubt, the training needed to host parties at Christmas time, parties similar to those being hosted at Pecan Manor in 2009, is second to none at SWBTS. The Horner Homemaking House sure seems to make happy those housewives headed for homemaking. One trusts Southern Baptists in seminary are being as well prepared to help those headed to hell. One also can't help but wonder what Benajah Harvey Carroll, L. R. Scarborough, E. D. Head and Robert E. Naylor might be thinking about these days.
In His Grace,
Wade
332 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 332 of 332Ron:
You said:"But because it is Patterson, we only hear silence. Why??"
I often wonder if I will live long enough for the truth about PP to be revealed.
There appears to be a lot of fear when it comes to PP.
It reads to me like they are preparing their students with skills and a church Sunday school curriculum fit for the last days. Its the end of the world and they know it.
I first heard of Ben Cole in a 2006 email from my brother-in-law who had been kicked out with three others from FBC Colleyville, TX.
All had been members a long time - up to thirty years. In my opinion, they were removed out of revenge by their pastor, Frank Harber, for their successful efforts in CHANGING the vote that would move their church to another town.
The email was about a breakfast for the newly elected president of the SBC, Frank Page.
The email said: “Also present was Ben Cole (the young pastor from Arlington who was to introduce the “freedom to speak out” resolution at the convention.
He asked me if I was one of the “Colleyville Four”. He then said something to the effect that Harber reminded him somewhat of Nebuchadnezzar, who spread his arms and said “Look what I have built”.
Did anyone get the feeling (“Look what I have built”) in the movie of Pecan Manor as Patterson opened the door and invited people to see?
BTW, Harber was fired about a year later.
My father said if a man will lie about something small, he will lie about anything.
I’ve talked with Patterson less than five minutes. In that time, he told me one thing but the opposite to the crowd.
I believe Wade would have expressed himself better in saying, “Lydia, your comment at 11:28 a.m. in this section has to be one of the most astute, acumen filled, and pointedly insightful comments that I’ve read in the history of this blog”; if he had said, “Lydia, your QUOTE at 11:28 a.m. etc.”
The quote from Ben Cole that stands out to me is his saying:
“Patterson is a politically shrewd and quasi-cannibalistic junkyard dog.
His wife is one part old lace and two parts arsenic.
An invitation to high tea with the pair can result in a trusteeship or a tombstone.”
Thanks Lydia, for the link:
http://sbcvoices.com/ben-cole-leaving-the-sbc/
Christiane,
Thanks, thanks, thanks for links and words to ‘I’ll fly away”. You’ve hit a bases-loaded home run with me.
Believer 333,
On that swim I learned mountains look closer than they are and I began to think starting at a graveyard was a bad idea.
I believe there was nothing recorded at the private meeting of the apostles and elders, but Peter gave the conclusion of that meeting in his speech to the multitude.
Peter answered the question how all were saved by God, but Gentiles were given how they would be accepted by Jews.
The ‘switch’ caused much confusion and ‘why the switch’ has been argued 2000 years.
Frank and I are still ‘going at it’ on Wade’s post Friday Dec 4.
Believer 333,
The Living Bible Preface states an all important point:
“The Bible writers often used idioms and patterns of thought that are hard for us to follow today. Frequently the thought sequence is fast-moving, leaving gaps for the reader to understand and fill in, or the thought jumps ahead or backs up to something said before without clearly stating the antecedent reference. Sometimes the result for us, with our present-day stress on careful sentence construction and sequential logic, is that we are left far behind.”
I believe “…leaving gaps for the reader to understand and fill in,” is what happened between Acts 15:6 and 15:7.
What the Bible writer should have said in verse 7 with our present reading logic would be:
‘At the assembly with the multitude, Peter gave the private meeting’s conclusion. After long discussion, he stood and addressed them…’
Thanks for replying.
BTW, I swam in Hanamba Bay (sp.?) my last day. If it had been my first, I’d spend all five days there.
Steve Fri Dec 25, 01:58:00 PM 2009 said,
"The homemaking folly came along when his (PP's) institution's enrollment had fallen so low that even PP realized that his cash flow from Nashville was being threatened. Southwestern might have to deal with the per-student expenditure level the other five had to settle for.
How to get his student numbers up "on the cheap" so the Pecan Manor lifestyle could continue? Get the young women already on-site to become students themselves."
BINGO!
NAIL ON THE HEAD!
And it will keep those pesky women out of those ministry jobs that are meant for the men in seminary!
My goodness--haven't we opened a can of worms--and found it to be full of yellowjackets swarming!!!
I totally agree that such excesses are rediculous. Shall we back date to the Pattersons at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary where I saw things with my own eyes:
(1) Close the child development center because "women can take care of the children." (Paige's first BS degree--and I don't mean Batchelor of Science)
(2) Renovate office for 3rd time in 10 years. Paige had 2" thick wool carpet, leather with brass tacks furniture befitting the CEO of GM. I shot pictures, if anyone wants to come and see me. You won't believe it! My God, you ought to see the "glamor shot" picture of Dorothy on his credenza--HOT!!!
(3) Close Cafeteria claiming it was too expensive----only to build Dining Hall addition to President's home.
(4) Renamed the home "Magnolia Hill" which sounds so much better than "Pecan." Only thing they didn't know was the last whore house in Wake County, closed in the 30's, was officially named "Magnolia Hill." Did the old timers of Wake Forest love that one!!!
(5) Their predicessor even added to the full renovation of the President's Home a climate controlled closet in the attic to protect Mrs. Drummond's furs! I ran into the contractor and we had a little talk about renovations since I worked my way through college doing Trim Carpenter work. All he could tell me was that no one knew the cost officially / Mrs. Drummond could never make her mind up until after initial work was done / which had to be torn out and redone--sometimes 3-4 times--at the same cost of the initial work X 3-4! He was appalled as a member of a local Baptist church!
DUH---"De higher de monkey climbs da tree, da more ya see his tail!!!
Rex shouldn't have called me in on this one!!! If I didn't have the pictures to prove it, I would be called a lyar by Brother and Sister Patterson--oops--DR & MRS DR Pattersons (whose PhD's stand for "Piled Higher and Deeper)!
It's the same wasteful story EVERY TIME. Pecan Hall is only the most recent accounting (or lack thereof on the books) of Presidential excess--to the victor go the spoils of what used to be a mission funding budget!
Lydia, Ron: I agree.
CB: Just the written facts I have alone shows Lydia's comment to be insightful.
Gene S:
In spite of all you point out to some PP is the Knight in Shining Armour. What am I missing?
Tom--
I don't understand your question.
Gene S,
Numbers 1,2 and three are lies.
Numbers 4 and 5 are true.
Debbie,
I do not understand the substance of your comment. Sorry.
cb
C. B.--
In the South when one calls another a "liar," it is grounds for a good fist fight.
I will stand by the truth as I tell it until I meet God above!!!
If you will tell me how it is a lie, I will give you my answer as to why it is the Gospel Truth as I witnessed it!!!!
Come on, buddy, don't give me that stuff from a naive person who, obviously, has not seen what I have seen and bear honest witness to.
Gene S:
Let me rephrase my question. In spite all of what you point out some think PP can do no wrong. How is it that they are so blind?
A good paraphrase of Matthew 23:
The Pattersonites and Presslerites control the SBC so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice. They make many rules and narrow theologies, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not live personal lives under them.
They do all their deeds to be seen by men; for they make their designer ties bright and their expensive tailored suits sharp, and they love the place of honor at all Pastor’s Conferences. They love being recognized and called “Dr.” by their subservient masses. But you are all the same as Baptists: you have one master, Jesus, and one Father who is God in heaven. Neither be called President or Vice-President, for you have one master, the Christ... But woe to you, dictators to Baptists, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who follow you to go in.
You go on glorious and expensive overseas mission trips to make a single proselyte and then corrupt him. You make all kinds of Resolutions and use Robert’s Rules of Order in any way to get your way. You don’t care what promises you make or public statements as long as you sound politically correct. Your sermons are slick and designed to please men. You neglect the Gospels and the ideas of God’s love and forgiveness, replacing them with legalisms and judgmentalism to make sinful men feel worse.
You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! Woe to you dictator pastors! You are like dishes and cups cleaned only on the outside while the inside is full of rotting food and disease. First cleanse the inside and the outside will clean itself. You take statements out of context from Baptist forefathers and act as if they applaud your mindless theology. You say you would love what the forefathers died for, but you take away the freedoms for which they would give their life. They went to jail and endured punishment so we could live in a land of freedom of religion and conscience. You would have been in the mobs which booed them and threw them in prison. You would have shot them rather than listen to their cries for freedom of individual churches and believers.
Many Baptists are saying we have deserted our heritage of freedom in recent years, but you call them “skunks” and “liberals” to anyone who doesn’t know what being free and Baptist means. The hottest fires of Hell wait for those who do not live in love and allow their brothers in the faith to be free. Anyone who claims to serve a God of love, but cannot love his brother who is different or uses different words, is a liar and a hypocrite destined for God’s harshest judgment.
Gene S,
Are you sure you want to stand by your position until you meet God? Are you willing to meet God with everything you said in those five points about SEBTS during the Patterson tenure and continue to say they are true?
I gave you numbers 4 and 5, but even part of those two statements are flawed, but not so much as 1,2 and 3.
Are you sure? Would you not rather stand down on saying you are ready to stand before God on this?
cb
I will gladly look God in the eye and declare: "I have spoken the truth, nothing but the truth, so help me God!!!!!
Is that clear enough???
CB: I am saying that I have documented proof in my hands that what Lydia and others have articulated is true.
Debbie:
Will this documentation be made public at some point in the future?
Debbie,
What did Lydia say specifically?
Lydia, as do you, me and others say a lot of things. Much of what Lydia says I totally agree with so I am kinda in the dark here.
cb
Gene S,
When you say you saw these things, are you saying you were there when they were done?
cb
Tom: As of now, no.
Debbie:
Thanks for the response to my question.
C.B.--
Correcto!!!!
I lived in Rocky Mount, NC, which is a 45 minute drive from Wake Forest.
I represented Ministers Life Insurance Company and SEBTS was part of my territory. We loved to sell student life insurance policies in hopes they would stick with us. I even had a mobile office and went to the Student Center every 3 months to solicit business!
Thereafter, I opened up Affordable / Professional Tree Surgeons and often went through Wake Forest on my way to jobs in N. Raleigh.
It was my practice to go by SEBTS and walk across campus and talk with students, the contractor I cited, and people related to students as they breakfasted at the Hardee's restaurant just under the railroad underpass going toward Rocky Mount.
I often played "fly on the wall" at the library at SEBTS, listening to what students and others were saying. I engaged in conversations with students as to what was going on right then at SEBTS.
To make it more plain, I read my alumni copy of the SEBTS newsletter claiming a great and growing student body after Randall Lolly left as president.
It was ALL A TOTAL DISTORTION!!!
For example, they claimed to have such a large student body they did not have enough classroom space to contain it all. Therefore, I went to the seminary at the 11:00 hour (which was the most popular when I was a student). On a Tuesday, I took my camera and documented the "large student body" with a picture of my watch when I started and when I finished.
Guess what: at that most popular hour 90% of the classroom seats were vacant!!! They claimed to have so many students and gave the numbers to justify their stipend from the SBC.
The only way they could have had such numbers was to count a cat walking across the campus as 2 students--rationale: the cat has 4 paws and counts a 2 sets of feet on campus that day!!!
I also tried to gain access to the student files in the Staley Administration Building to see if the students had the required paper from their local SBC church to recommend them to SEBTS as a bonified member of an SBC church:
ACCESS DENIED!!!
So why were they hiding everything from money spent on Presidential home renovation to numbers of actual students to the documentation of that student's legitimate relationship to a CP paying and supporting church so his tuition was 60% paid by CP dollars????
When I talked with students in the Library and across campus, most of them came from Independent churches and schools like Liberty (Jerry Falwell) who had heard SEBTS was a wonderful conservative school where it would be safe to attend! So how did they have validation from an SBC church unless they joined one to get the "free ride" from the SBC?
I would attest to this before any court in the country--even more, before Almighty God. That is how truthful I am about this matter!
My pictures document both the excess of Paige Patterson's office and the distortion of student numbers. You may see them if you want.
Gene S,
I only asked you about the five statements you made in an earlier comment.
I really wish you had just stuck to those five things, two of which do have a degree of truth in them. I was prepared to deal with all five and give correct information.
But your last comment brings a new twist into this dialogue.
Gene S, You may have sold "some" students insurance.
There is a Hardees where you say there is and for several years many students ate there.
You may have visited the library as a "fly on the wall."
You may have been denied access to some documents relating to individual students.
There were some students from Liberty. (A school affiliated with the SBCV)
I think the above covers everything. I don't think I have missed anything.
Therefore, Gene, Every other thing you have said in your last comment is pure fabrication (lies).
Gene S, what would lead you to say these things for the truth?
Why would you with willful intent, say things that are not true and say you are willing to go to court or stand before God and declare them as true?
Gene S, if you are a brother in Christ, something is wrong with you. You need to deal with it. Otherwise, you are just simply a lost person who has some serious problems who needs to repent of sin and believe the gospel that you may be born again.
cb
C.B.--
You have called me out. I have told the truth.
Even you know where the Hardee's is and I will gladly give you my bio which clearly indicates I was an Insurance Agent for Ministers Life beginning in 1986.
Come on, man, where is the lie????
I you doubt my word, then come on down to old Bath Town and I will show you the pictures which tell no lies!!!
You are full of wrath and venom and, like all good conservative Republicans / Christians start calling names when the facts don't suit your distorted sense of reality.
Otherwise, we can just have a good old Southern fistfight for you calling me a "liar." Just don't forget, I own a Tree Surgeon company with a big diesel powered chipping maching and many other tools of destruction.
Do you really want to call a guy who safely brings 10 ton trees into a 3' space a liar?????
CB:
You said to Gene:"Otherwise, you are just simply a lost person who has some serious problems who needs to repent of sin and believe the gospel that you may be born again."
How do you know who is lost or not?
Why the constant fighting with anyone who sees things different than you?
I believe you like to bully people but you have met your match with Gene S.
Gene S,
I did not say you did not work for an insurance company. I conceded that to be possible. That is not the problem at hand.
Gene S, Believe me.
I am not angry at you in any way. My present feelings toward you are actually akin to sorrow or pity.
Gene S, the things I have stated in your comments as lies are simply that: lies.
If I were to say otherwise, I would be a liar also.
The great question is; Why? Why do you say with willful intent that which is false?
cb
Tom Parker,
This is not a situation of "seeing things" differently.
The specific things to which I challenge Gene S about saying are not true.
I can't make them to be true. I know them not to be true and I can do nothing else.
I am sorry you take the position here that you do. And I am sorry you consider me a bully. But my being sorry about those things does not change the fact that Gene S, for some reason, is with willful intent saying things about SEBTS that are not true.
cb
CB:
I do not think Gene S. will back down from you.
You are calling him a liar.
You are saying he is a lost person.
He has offered to prove his side, what do you offer to clear this matter up.
C.B.--
One of us is lying, now let's figure out who!!!
What were your years at SEBTS?
Why do you insist I am not telling the truth?
Give me some facts rather than the Conservative / Republican name calling!!!
Bring it on, my Alabama SBC "truth telling brother."---NOT!!!
Do you have the pictures to prove things are different than I claim they are???
Bring it on--I am ready for you and have been waiting since they fired (in essence) Randall Lolley who was the best President SEBTS ever had and is my cell-phone-saved number buddy as well as a Tree Surgery client!!!
Show me the files proving SEBTS students were approved long before Falwell ever thought about joining the SBC!
BRING IT ON!!!!!
Tom Parker,
I did not say Gene S was a lost person.
I said: "Gene S, if you are a brother in Christ, something is wrong with you. You need to deal with it. Otherwise, you are just simply a lost person who has some serious problems who needs to repent of sin and believe the gospel that you may be born again."
I made those statements based on the fact that I know Gene S is lying about specific things relating to SEBTS.
The fact that Gene S has made these statements with willful intent makes me know he has a problem of some kind. If he is a brother in Christ he needs to deal with the cause of his problem for his own good and the good of others.
If he is not a brother then he is lost and his greatest problem is his lostness. Thus he needs to repent and believe the gospel that he may be born again.
It is pretty simple.
cb
CB:
You said:"I made those statements based on the fact that I know Gene S is lying about specific things relating to SEBTS."
Specifically what are his lies and can you prove he is lying?
C.B.--
I try my best to be nice, BUT you are the lying SOB ("Sweet Old Bob," lest I be accused of maligning you.)
My daddy and grandaddy always said, "If it smells like cow manure, tastes like CM, and looks like CM---it might just be CM!!!"
Capiche?????
I'll be darned if you didn't call me every vile name in the book and meant it. When Georgia beats the devil out of Alabama, you will be paid back---and do you remember the time they caught Bear Bryant and Wally Butts on the phone fixing the point spread???
They got by with it, BUT you ain't Bear Bryant!!!!
Gene S,
Let's go back to the original five statements you made and work from there.
Statement 5:
"Their predicessor even added to the full renovation of the President's Home a climate controlled closet in the attic to protect Mrs. Drummond's furs! I ran into the contractor and we had a little talk about renovations since I worked my way through college doing Trim Carpenter work. All he could tell me was that no one knew the cost officially / Mrs. Drummond could never make her mind up until after initial work was done / which had to be torn out and redone--sometimes 3-4 times--at the same cost of the initial work X 3-4! He was appalled as a member of a local Baptist church!"
Gene S,
Mrs. Drummond did have some furs.
There was very little storage in the president's house. There was an area framed up in the attic and an AC vent was put in it. No additional unit was installed to cool the attic closet. It was actually a very small closet. A mistake was made in the framing of the closet. A rafter was cut and not repaired. later a leak in the roof occurred. The repair of the roof cost more than the closet.
During the Drummond's tenure, there was no "full renovation" of the house. There was some remodeling of part of the house.
Maybe, Gene S, you would consider the remodeling as a renovation. If so I concede to the renovation of the house.
cb
Gene S,
I did not call you "every vile name in the book." But I did say you were lying about some specific things about SEBTS and I did "meant it" and still do.
And few people consider me "Sweet." I am getting "Old." But my name is not "Bob."
cb
C.B.--
Who are you chucking and jiving to avoid???
I talked with the Contractor and he certainly described it as a "renovation with climate controlled fur closet included and many changes where Mrs. Drummond could not make up her mind."
This actually has nothing to do with PP and the other things I described.
Now, again, when were you a student at SEBTS and don't lie to me!!!!!
Sorry for the assumption that "B" stood for Bob!
Why don't you tell me what it really stands for!
Gene S,
All I can say about your talk with the "contractor" is; if you know anything about contractors you know they often stretch more than a chalk line. And he should have been made to pay for cutting the rafter.
Statement number 4:
"(4) Renamed the home "Magnolia Hill" which sounds so much better than "Pecan." Only thing they didn't know was the last whore house in Wake County, closed in the 30's, was officially named "Magnolia Hill." Did the old timers of Wake Forest love that one!!!"
The campus of SEBTS had beautiful Magnolia trees all over it. Many were in the yard of the president's house. When they were in bloom you could smell them everywhere.
Mrs. Patterson gave the president's home and grounds the name Magnolia Hill. It fit. It did become a place of ministry for and to many people.
When Fran hit, many of the Magnolia trees were destroyed. The name stuck. In some ways, after Fran the name, Magnolia Hill, took on a new meaning. Some of the Magnolia trees in the yard withstood Fran. SEBTS withstood Fran.
BTW, enrollment increased that year.
I doubt Mrs. Patterson ever knew about the cathouse you referenced. But, even if she did; it would not have mattered. Magnolia Hill of SEBTS had an identity of its own.
cb
C.B.--
You must be scared to address all my things "in toto." Is this because you know I will plough each one into the ground and prove I am rightly speaking?
You still haven't answered the question of when you were actually at SEBTS!
Yeah--Fran got the magnolias, BUT improper pruning did the worst job on them. What idiot took all the lower branches off those beautiful trees and turned them into giant bushes?
I bet they took the lowest bidder so Paige could have his 3-figure salary and perks thereunto apertaining which no average Baptist can find out!! That's a question I asked as well, but it was buried in the general heading on the budget to the point "only the Trustees knew"--if they really did!
Sorry "DR" Dorothy didn't research the name before using it. Most of us who knew the real SEBTS thought she really picked the right name as it had to do with debauchery / cover up / lust / greed / etc.!
Shall we move quickly to the rest of my allegations.
I won't ask you for an apology for your degrading epithets, but God is holding you accountable!
Think about it!
C.B.--
The first part about contractors streatching more than the chalk line is another Conservative / Republican "name call."
This Baptist church member gentleman had no reason to lie---and every contractor knows the difference between a closet having an A-C vent added and a "renovation where the customer can't make up her mind."
I said it as accurately as I remember it!!!
Find another way to defeat what I told in truth and love.
Statement number 3:
"3) Close Cafeteria claiming it was too expensive----only to build Dining Hall addition to President's home."
An outside party rented the Cafeteria. The building that housed the cafeteria was in very poor shape when the Pattersons came in 1992. it became a black hole in repair bills.
To renovate the building would have been very expensive. The person who rented the cafeteria was given plenty notice before the building was raised.
The person moved the cafeteria into the "downtown" area of Wake Forest. Their business grew. The move proved to be a good thing for them. The old cafeteria building was raised. New parking was developed in the space. it was greatly needed. Because, again enrollment increased.
No "dining hall" was added to the president's home.
cb
Do tell, brother C.B.---
That Cafeteria was a super convenient building located right on campus and I ate there many times. When it was torn down, any student wanting a good home cooked meal had to get in a car, drive to the opposite side of downtown WF, and hope to get back in time for his 1:00 class.
The food was so good that, new building or not, the folks who cooked it were honored at the new building just as they were at the old one. Many a person from the town came by to eat that good food.
You, obviously, know nothing about a commercial building constructed of brick, mortar, and steel: termites can't hurt it, the plaster had few, if any cracks, it was structurally sound. Stainless steel counters, dishwashers, etc. never wear out! Any updates come at a 30% cost of new construction. Where was the real savings for SEBTS????
Also---the Cafeteria was a perfect setting for the "Town Hall" discussions Lolley and his Staff initiated--as well as their fund raiser for Lottie Moon (it was called a "Paaty for Lottie" to make it more attractive to students).
What did the Pattersons do to raise money for missions?????
You have yet to tell me when you were there and in what capacity. I suspect it was PR for PP & Company!!!
"No 'dining hall' was added to the president's home."
Son---what should I call that doubling-of-square-footage addition where Mrs. Patterson entertained like she does at "Pecan Manor"--a big outhouse???
I ride by the thing quite often. Shall I take a picture of that too???? It doesn't exactly add any Southern charm to Magnolia Hill, but best I can tell it is a commercial grade eating / entertaining facility.
Just to prove I ride by, Danny Aikin is usually walking to Staley Hall with smile on face about 7:30... He usually wears a white shirt without suit coat in the summer. I do my best not to splash water from the gutter on him as I pass in my big truck going to N. Raleigh on business 98!
Gene S,
Are you still with me? if so :
Statement number 2:
"(2) Renovate office for 3rd time in 10 years. Paige had 2" thick wool carpet, leather with brass tacks furniture befitting the CEO of GM. I shot pictures, if anyone wants to come and see me. You won't believe it! My God, you ought to see the "glamor shot" picture of Dorothy on his credenza--HOT!!!"
There was only renovation of the president's office between the time Louis Drummond left the office of the president and Paige Patterson came up until he left his tenure there.
Dr Patterson had to be "talked into" the office being renovated.
Before the renovation the carpet was ragged. The paint was chipped and cracked on the walls. Some of the trim was chipped along the ceiling and around the doors and baseboard. There had also been a leak in the ceiling and even though it had been fixed the water stain was still there.
The renovation entailed the following:
*Fix holes in wall.
*Replace trim in various places.
*Paint book shelves. (no new shelving was added, although it was advised, but refused by the president.)
* Fix windows and replace broken panes
*Replace blinds on windows.
*Replace carpet.
*Rehang trophy heads
Student labor was used to do all of the renovation to the president's office except for laying the carpet.
Paint was bought from Sherwin-Williams on Galaxy Road in Wake Forest.
The paint was bought at discount prices below what Lowe's paint costs.
The carpet was bought at a discount at Manor House Carpet and Flooring in Wake Forest. It was a medium grade carpet. It was not wool and it was not a "two inch nap"
The blinds came from Home-Depot.
And I am pretty sure the drapes/curtains came from Target. Although, I am not absolutely sure about that. They may have been made by a lady on campus who made drapes.
But, I must admit, the office of the president did look excellent after the renovation.
And I really doubt Dorothy posing for a "glamor shot" of any kind. And I seriously doubt you have such a picture in your possession, Gene S.
cb
Ah, CB, you continue your PR for PP with a masterful touch. I am so impressed--you just don't tell it accurately enough!!
Dr. Lolley had the first renovation of office from many years of use by Olin T. Binkley, his predecessor. It came after several years into his presidency and it was done totally outside any seminary expense with a grant from a foundation.
Next, comes Dr. Drummond after about 3-5 years of Lolley usage = total renovation from top to bottom removing wallpaper / carpet / etc. having a 20 year lifetime and used for 1/4 of it.
Now comes "DR" Patterson and it is all ripped out and replaced after Drummond's some 5 years of usage. Your description of PP's reticence fails to explain why a perfectly good and well-decorated office would be redone. I was in Drummond's office and noticed not one piece of plaster with one single crack--most of it was covered with hight dollar wallpaper! He was given the furniture as his reward for doing the bidding of the CR kings. The start was furniture of PP's choice.
I told you before, I was a Trim Carpenter and I, additionally, lived in the finest parsonage in SC at Bishopville. I know real plush wool carpet when I walk on it and see it---and it sure ain't cheap! Neither are cheery hardwood furniture pieces, nor leather covered chairs with brass tacks!
Who are you trying to fool???
You can claim all you want about Dorothy's picture in "glamour shot" style. It sat on the campus side of the office on the wide part of the bookcase at an angle facing the room. I pulled my picture and checked to find out I mispoke about the credenza with the passing of time. Come on down and see for yourself, because I couldn't resist shooting a close up. If it were in digital days, I would post it right now!
You would never recognize her without her Minnie Pearl hat and frumpy dress, but it was HOT!!!
Every inch of the walls were covered with finely framed pictures / awards / and a plaque from Frances Schaeffer, for one--none of which is cheap! There was another of PP shaking hands with the first President Bush--I assume at Criswell Bible College or FBC.
For you to know "exactly" where everything came from proves your PR relationship with PP--it proves NOTHING about your evaluation of the excesses in the office--remember: done after 5 years of usage by Drummond!!!
If you are telling me the carpet was cheap, you have just demeaned a man of such taste he had a zebra skin and others spread across it. I distinctly remember a sword on the wall as well.
Wanna keep calling me a liar, my brother???
What else do you want to discuss to prove I lie!!! I have nothing else to do tonight, and I slept 2 hours later than my usual 4 a.m. wake up time!!
Let's continue this interesting discussion on PP frugality--AND did you guys raise any money for Lottie during his tenure????
"Son---what should I call that doubling-of-square-footage addition where Mrs. Patterson entertained like she does at "Pecan Manor"--a big outhouse???"
Gene S,
What you should call the little over 4000 sq. ft. addition is: A very large library, office space, additional storage, a private family kitchen and dinning area and a bedroom, along with a screened in back porch. That is exactly what you can call it because that is exactly what it was.
As I said, there was no "dinning hall" added to Magnolia Hill. All of the "guest dinning" still occurred in the original part of the house.
Now, Gene S, let's consider statement number 1, shall we?
"(1) Close the child development center because "women can take care of the children." (Paige's first BS degree--and I don't mean Batchelor of Science)"
The SEBTS Childcare Center was mostly used by people not related to the seminary who worked in Wake Forest, Raleigh, Durham or some other part of the Triangle.
Many, and I mean many people simply did not pay their childcare bill. The Center operated in the red for several years of Dr. Patterson's tenure. Several people within the administration kept trying to persuade Dr. Patterson to close the center as the debt grew larger and larger.
Finally and after strong persuasion, Dr Patterson agreed to close it down.
The Center was not operated by seminary employees. Much could be said about the operation, but it would add nothing to this dialogue.
Patterson refused to "share the heat" that came from the closing of the center. But I can assure you it was not a one man decision. Frankly, it was a mistake in administration to keep it open as long as it was.
cb
Gene S,
The reason I know about the renovation of the president's office is because I supervised the entire renovation. And I purchased every thing that went into the renovation except the drapes out of my operational budget. You are just flat lying about the carpet.
I also supervised various parts of the addition to the president's home.
It was me who put the blueprints of Mag. Hill in a mailer and sent them to SWBTS. I think they were used there, but I don't know that for sure.
I have been a student in four seminaries and I worked in the administration of SEBTS during the Patterson tenure. I also taught some Ed. classes and Pastoral Ministry classes as an adjunct.
I was the next door neighbor to the Pattersons for almost eight years.
I pretty well know the good, the bad and the ugly of SEBTS during the Patterson tenure.
And I also know that you are lying for the most part here in this comment thread. I don't know why, but I know you are.
I also think that if you were/are so "in tune" to the happenings at SEBTS over the years, you would know about me.
Now, to all of you who have read this dialogue between Gene S and I; I have told the truth.
There are literally hundreds of people who can confirm what I have said here. If you desire, you may call anyone who was there prior to 2004 and they can (if they will) confirm what I have said here as to the happenings and events of which I have challenged the truthfulness of Gene Scarborough. But, frankly, I really don't care if you do or not. The truth is still going to be the truth.
Gene, I really don't know why you have lied about all of this. There was nothing for you to gain. Maybe you just need attention. I am sure that need causes us all to do wrongful things at times.
Gene, you have made a fool of yourself here and believe it or not I feel for you in that because I have done the same more than once in my life.
Gene, whatever it is that is causing this problem in your life; I hope and pray you get it straightened out between you and God first and with your fellow man secondly.
I have told the truth here Gene. And you have not. And in the end, that is really all there is to it.
cb
Well, my brother, when it was closed I was talking to students about their insurance needs and they were evaluating it in an opposite direction!
The majority of students were married with families and Ruby Reed center was a cheap and perfectly located facility to help them with safe childcare. The ratio of student children to community children may have changed from my student days, but the primary function was always student childcare first.
Are you kidding me about tuition behindage being the main reason to close it? You can't be serious when there was a great influx of highly paid professionals buying houses in the $200,000 range to get out of Raleigh to a beautiful little town just up the road!
If it was behind, all they had to do was give the clients a few weeks to get honest because, by George, they could afford the minimal fees if a student could!
I think you could fully explain why George Bush III was unable to find Osama or Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. Frankly, you are a "weapon of mass distraction."
Beyond being a good and safe childcare facility, Ruby Reed was used as a training ground for anyone anticipating a ministry to children position on a church staff.
You are welcome to your view, but either things changed in a drastic fashion turning Wake Forest into a slum with poor people who couldn't pay--OR someone is trying to deceive me!!! No matter what, it was a much needed and outstanding facility for working mothers whom PP dispises.
Now, let's look at some more important things about PP and his outlook:
(1) Why do many good country churches no longer use SEBTS students as pastors?
(2) Why have there been so many church turmoils over a student coming in with a "new Constitution and By-Laws" which puts him totally in charge of all things country church?
(3) Which one of PP's Son-In-Laws came over to the Calvary Church in Rocky Mount and was so dictatorial and judgmental he called the Belk langerie insert "pornography" and acted as though no one was worthy of Communion except "perfect" him?
(4) Which professor at SEBTS is teaching students that using any form of birth control = abortion?
(5) Why are the members of a good Wake Forest mill church up in arms because their student pastor brought in a bunch of fellow students who out-voted them on a Family Life Center they are now expected to pay for in hard times?
I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but you are such a good "explainer" and these are such real issues during and after PP's influence at "Magnolia Hill," I thought I would give you a chance at them.
By the way--you still haven't explained your position to have such PP knowledge---though it be somewhat slanted toward the "doctored truth" direction.
Nor have you given me any apology for clearly answering--with picture proof--all the things you have accused me of lying about.
God does not liars either and one of us is not telling the whole truth!
God does not like liars--I meant to say.
My fingers and brain are looking for a rest, so take your time in answering before the members of the blog which has become most interesting!
C.B.--you sound like my grandsons when I catch the fighting and always claiming, "It wasn't me!"
Had I been a student or trustee, I would have known you well. I'm just not the kind of Baptist Paige wants in any position.
They already have a serious "truth teller" in Wade, and I suspect he has been accused by Paige and his buddies of the same offenses you accuse me of! What's new???? They just couldn't make him close down his blog.
Too many people read it and too many people do not have their eyes blinded by the smoke and mirrors of the master politicians. Neither are as many people fooled because they are not giving as much nor joining as much to the point many churches are taking "Baptist" off the sign out front.
I didn't do any of this. I was in Houston in 1979 and saw the "end justifies the means" outlook of taking over the SBC under the false banner of Inerrancy. It just has taken many folks 30 years to see the truth which ALWAYS comes out sooner or later.
If CBF churches and leaders were still part of the SBC, our statistics and attitudes might be better. So much filthy water has gone under the bridge as to undermine all the supports and fewer and fewer trust what is left of those supports. They certainly no longer support Missions as they used to.
Actually, in this whole part of the discussion, you presented nothing to "prove" I am wrong and "lie." All you can end it with is "I feel like it is not true."
Are you totally blind to imported decorations / stolen artifacts bragged about by PP from the "black market of antiquities" belying an humble and poor servant of God?
Do you really believe that fancy black lab is now welcome when the good old hound dog got invited out of Magnolia Hill?
If you truely believe all this, I have some ocean front property in Arizona I want to sell you at a bargain basement price!!!!!!!
Pastor Wade,
Thanks for posting this link. That video appears to be one more in the list of Martha Stewart living = godly womanhood pieces that tend to send me these days. Labeled "Christian decorum" by some teachers, this sort of over-the-top patriocentric Titus twoness grieves my heart.
Interestingly enough, on the very day that my husband and I watched that video clip, our friends were in Ethiopia to bring their adopted daughter home from the orphanage where she has spent nearly the first year of her life. She will come home to a brother adopted from an orphanage in North Korea and to parents who have sacrificed greatly to follow the Lord's command for loving the widow and the orphan.
As I watched the Patterson's home tour, I kept wondering how many other orphans could be brought into loving Christian homes if such opulence were traded for financial help to willing families. How many lovely ornaments and collections could be traded for the $20,000.00 it takes for a foreign adoption? Since the Pattersons are now such big proponents of large families, why not sell these wonderful collections, buy a few artificial poinsettias for next year's open house while they are on sale now at Wal-Mart, and use the rest to support the growing number of orphans who desperately need parents? I do not believe in forced redistribution of wealth but I do believe that true spirituality is caring for widows and orphans in their distress, not training even more women to decorate their homes with such extravagance. Off my soapbox now...
That Mom--
You make a great point with an important question. It is along the lines of the Parable of the Sheep and Goats entering into the Kingdom of Heaven
If you do a visual of sheep and goats way off in the distance grazing, they are but white dots on a hillside. When they get closer there is a distinct difference no one can miss!
The vidio is "up close and personal" on the Pattersons and we see things we wish were not there.
After my extensive discussion with CB Scott above, if you do a "top of page" move, you will find my paraphrase of Matthew 23 and therein lies your answer!
I am sure glad to you see Baptists getting down to "brass tacks" and arguing over carpet.
K
CB,
Serious question:
What about the taxidermy bills sent to SEBTS? Was Ben wrong about that? Did one of our seminaries pay for his taxidermy bills as part of office decor costs?
Gene: The comment you made at 10:48 AM is astute, and your point is excellently made.
Gene S:
You said "By the way--you still haven't explained your position to have such PP knowledge---though it be somewhat slanted toward the "doctored truth" direction."
He explained that 2 comments before. You might want to read the history Rev. Scott reveals there.
On the other hand, you listened to some students and contractors. And have some photos.
Interesting.
Lydia,
I have always maintained that Ben told the truth....And so have I.
"Dr. Lolley had the first renovation of office from many years of use by Olin T. Binkley, his predecessor. It came after several years into his presidency and it was done totally outside any seminary expense with a grant from a foundation."
Gene S., sorry if I'm repeating, lots of comments to catch up on. But are you saying that both Dr. Drummon, and Dr. Patterson used the university money for redoing the office and the house, while only Dr. Lolly received outside foundation money?
"(1) Why do many good country churches no longer use SEBTS students as pastors?
(2) Why have there been so many church turmoils over a student coming in with a "new Constitution and By-Laws" which puts him totally in charge of all things country church?"
This is what happened to the small local Baptist church I was going to (no Baptist in the name any longer). It was only his second church and he actually demanded a certain salary in order to accept the position. This salary plus required freebies actually ended up taking over 90% of the churches income. At one point he even suggested the church sell their property and move into rented quarters. He had big plans. Somehow we resisted his well worded suggestions. Yearly budgets were difficult to get in detail. Most of those who did get them ended up leaving as I did.
He completely redid our 'by-laws' so that he was in complete control of everything. I also noted that only those who were big givers were allowed into positions of elder etc in the church. We had a big turnover of competent leaders.
The only reason I am free to be this specific is because no one knows who or what church I am speaking of.
I am also concerned with people fresh out of seminary taking the leading place in churches. It would be wiser IMO if such newbies were to take associate positions until they had some reasonable experience to prove their abilities.
Bob--
CB was posting as I was writing for about the 3rd time a request he disclose who and what he was to SEBTS from my personal observation time 1986-present. He FINALLY gave answer and I appreciat it--doesn't change my mind a single bit on my position and my honesty in this matter!
Believer--
You read it correctly. Dr. Binkley refused to spend a dollar on the Stealey Administration Building because there were other campus needs and the budget was tight.
Dr. Lolley came with connections to foundations (Broyhill, etc.) in Winston-Salem where he pastored FBC. Through his efforts and other fundraisers he enlisted, the money came to pass for a renovation of the Administrative building--not just his office. It was badly needed and cost the SBC---NOTHING to the best of my snooping, questioning knowledge!
You could always get a copy of the clearly delineated budget at SEBTS in those days. It was called "transparency in spending CP money." The giving church or member was never denied access to files or "Executive Committee" minutes in "Executive session."
In those pre-1979 days missions and missionaries were the highest priority. Administrative salaries and perks took a distinct back seat.
Boy did that change when the new "Kings of the SBC" took over in the next 6 years. Kings always have to live in a kingly style no matter how much good money is given with "MISSIONS" as the call for giving. You will notice there "ain't no money left for missions now!"
Of course, it is all the fault of church members and churches who are being stingy in giving--according to PP / CB / and whatever monogramed initials are on their other fancy shirts.
Any similarity to Jim Bakker, et. al, is purely coincidental.
333--
Here are the "new rules:"
(1) the mega church model rules--if it ain't show, it's "no go."
(2) If the right tails of monkeys are kissed and fur is picked clean of fleas--you get the Boardwalk property in the SBC Monopoly game.
(3) The training in seminaries has nothing to do with practicality--just deal making and proving to the Administration you are worthy of carrying out their dirty deeds no matter how dirty: the end justifies the means.
(4) NO NEW GRADUATE will get the big church unless absolute obedience is proven beforehand.
(5) The more arroagant and nasty you can be, the better you can be "used of God" in that big FBC.
(6) Any scripture referring to servant love is missed during Bible courses--the course on PP Worship is taught every year and reviewed by every student as he is worshiped in Chapel.
I could go on with more, but you have discovered for yourself how the program now works along with: Major on Theology and Minor on Mission Service.
Sadly, it used to be the reverse and Autonomy was a clear part of every Baptist Constitution and By-laws. I dare you to try and find that word now!
It disappeared from the NCBSC new "Article of Incorporation" some 10 years ago as we rubber-stamped the report of the Executive Committee. I never got the promised chance to meet with them on the matter---I just wasn't the "right" kind of Baptist here in NC when PP & friends / graduates began to work their magic seriously here instead of deep in the heart of Texas at Criswell Central Control Center (CCC) for short---the initial looks strangely like what was on all the Russian rockets parading through Red Square!
Gene S,
Simple observation: CB answered you at time stamp 3:08.
You were writing another comment, which you posted at 3:09. No mention that I can see, of his failure to answer your questions.
You then stated he hadn't answered your question, in yet another comment at 3:20.
Thus, from what evidence I can see, your statement "CB was posting as I was writing for about the 3rd time a request he disclose who and what he was to SEBTS from my personal observation time 1986-present." at 3:20 is simply not true.
He has dealt with the 5 points you brought up. You have continued to bring up other matters derogatory to Dr. Patterson.
Who's being factual here?
CB Scott,
The last time I asked you a question, you answered by telephone because you promised your wife to stop blogging on Wade’s post.
Also many comments including my question were deleted by Wade. I believe it was the only time he has deleted all comments on a certain subject.
I’m glad he deleted them because things got too personal and statements were made in anger which usually brings out the worst in most Christians.
I say all that to say WE are watching you and Gene going at TRUTH from different directions. He is going at Patterson in an ATTACK mode, and you are in the DEFENCE mode.
Over all, you are holding your temper better than Gene is. That may be because you’ve called him a liar.
I believe you will agree the past will show you’ve been ‘quick-on-the trigger to call people liars you disagree with.
Gene is not my hero on holding one’s temper, but I agree with his overall view of what has happened to the SBC, C/R, Patterson, and inerrancy.
Even though I asked Wade to delete one of his comments, I appreciate his knowledge and experience in the last thirty years of the ‘takeover’ of the SBC.
Now the problem at hand, both of you impresses US with your ‘first hand’ knowledge but in disagreement because I believe both of you have different goals. For instance Gene said:
“Their predecessor even added to the full renovation of the President's Home a climate controlled closet in the attic to protect Mrs. Drummond's furs!”
And you said:
“There was an area framed up in the attic and an AC vent was put in it. No additional unit was installed to cool the attic closet.”
I believe both statements are true, but your’s imply Gene said an “additional unit was installed” which would belittle his statement.
What both of you have said to one another is a lot less than some men have fought duels over.
CB, I believe you are an honest man and tell the truth from YOUR point of view. So I’ll ask a direction question connected to your expert view on telling the truth.
When Patterson told me Criswell’s Study Bible answered all the ‘errors’ they could, but told the crowd, “We got all of them!” Was he lying?
I have a tendancy to believe the Naylor Center Day Care was closed for different reasons than published by the PR arm of the seminary.
The reason is because I was involved in something similar with a mega church years ago. As the PR person we would never have given the REAL reason we closed a much needed day care center housed in the original church property in what had become a lower class neighborhood were it was sorely needed.
As I look back, I am deeply ashamed. It would have advanced the Kingdom to plant a church in that building. But mega churches are not known to be interested in planting new churches in lower class neighborhoods. They might go in and help from time to time but planting a church?
Since I was in the meetings I was privvy to the real reasons: The very comp mega did not want it to be seen that they supported day care or working mothers. They viewed it as sin. Of course, in these neighborhoods, both mom and dad are working for 10 bucks an hour and need reliable and affordable day care. As I look back my shame is what it did to single moms who were hurt the most.
Gene S,
I agree with many things you write, but please leave Bama football out of this :)
Roll Tide!
You know, what exactly is wrong with women who are called of God to take care of their own families WELL learning how to do so?
Linda, there's nothing wrong with it, just as there's nothing wrong with education for women who are called of God to become nurses. The question is whether the Southern Baptist Seminary is the right institution to meet either calling, given that resources are limited and there are many other institutions locally prepared to provide that education.
Nothing wrong with it, Linda.
But shoving every woman into that box and saying that it is the only true 'biblical' option is very wrong.
Making the Bible all about roles and focusing on a smattering of verses that may or may not actually talk about roles and ignoring and downplaying other portions of the Bible that show women doing other things, besides keeping home, like leading a nation (Deborah), being a prophet (Huldah), being a teacher (Priscilla), a Deacon (Phebe), etc...
That is wrong.
I personally don't have a problem with a school having a homemaking degree. But I have a huge issue with that same school canning Dr. Klonda because they decided that women teaching men is a bad idea because of one verse.
So, to me, the homemaking degree at that school is a joke, a handful of crumbs tossed toward women who are being striped of any other dream besides having their own(very down-scaled)version of pecan manor.
You know, what exactly is wrong with women who are called of God to take care of their own families WELL learning how to do so?
Mon Dec 28, 05:49:00 PM 2009
Personally, I would like to see a debate on this at the next SBC. How many think this is a wise use of resources for a seminary and charging the women for such vocational education that could be found much cheaper elsewhere if that if that is their bent? It really comes across as a way for SWBTS to increase their numbers while playing up the gender roles doctrine they love.
Is there a "Christian" way to sew? To cook?
My thoughts are that women need theology worse than homemaking.
Incidentally, I suppose someone ought to point out that if there weren't any ladies out there perceiving a need for education in Homemaking, nobody'd sign up for the courses.
Has anyone?
:)
Hi LINDA,
You wrote this: 'You know, what exactly is wrong with women who are called of God to take care of their own families WELL learning how to do so?'
I agree that nothing is wrong with this. Sometimes a woman needs to think about how she must do this should anything happen to her husband, or her marriage, or God-forbid to one of her children, such as a medical problem requiring expensive care.
We do not know what we will be challenged with in future; but we do know this, that God gives us the gifts and the strength to meet those challenges. Developing our gifts as women may mean university education with training in a profession, so as to guarantee our children's futures in case of troubled times. We should not mock God by ignoring His gifts of talent and intellect. Women can do much more than they realize to provide a good home for their families.
We should be dependent on Christ, not dependent on the worldly material fortunes of our husbands. :)
Incidentally, I suppose someone ought to point out that if there weren't any ladies out there perceiving a need for education in Homemaking, nobody'd sign up for the courses.
Has anyone?
:)
Mon Dec 28, 06:24:00 PM 2009
Bob, we are talking about young people who follow leaders and hang on their every word. And I am sure many aspire to the lifestyle that Dorothy and Paige have.
Bob:
You said:"Incidentally, I suppose someone ought to point out that if there weren't any ladies out there perceiving a need for education in Homemaking, nobody'd sign up for the courses.
Has anyone?
:)"
I wonder what pressure some of these women feel to participate in this degree.
I don't think CP money should be used for such a degree.
How much is SWBTS receiving in CP funds for these homemaking courses?
If pulpit pounding preachers say over and over that a woman can't be a pastor or a Greek teacher or even a Sunday School teacher to mixed groups, and that her only option is to be a homemaker, what else is there for her to do? It's either that, no degree at all, or rebel against her beloved (albeit, misguided) denomination.
Did you ever think about that?
"
Personally, I would like to see a debate on this at the next SBC. How many think this is a wise use of resources for a seminary and charging the women for such vocational education that could be found much cheaper elsewhere if that if that is their bent? "
There might even be more to it than that. The patriarchalists may be providing well trained obedient minded young women for the young male patriarchalist to marry.
Yeah .. that's the ticket .. let's see if there are any young folks pursuing the Homemaking education at SWBTS so we can attribute THAT to undue pressure from patriarchs, or stemming from their worldly desire to live in a big mansion like a seminary president.
I certainly hope that doesn't reveal your opinion of the motives of those folks in the Homemaking program.
Bob:
Does PP live in a mansion? Surely he is living the good life.
Does he not advocate men being the Patriach?
Did he not reveal his view of women with his treatment of Dr. Klouda?
Why do you support PP unquestioningly?
No, Bob, not my view of those in the homemaking program, but of those who fire female Greek teachers with handicapped husbands because it is better to follow the letter of the law rather than the spirit of Christian charity...
Those who make their manors of great importance and hope that women will give up their divine call to preach the gospel to all the nations (or teach Greek) so they can play susie homemaker, be a Martha rather than a Mary, and chase that shiny Martha Stewert apple dangled before them.
To be sure, just as all believers are called to prayer, so all believers, female AND male, are called to a certain level of hospitality. And some women are better at it than others. But not ALL females are called to be a Dorothy Patterson or a Christian Martha Stewart.
I'll again say, I don't have a real problem with a homemaking degree. But coming from the Pattersons...
All it looks like to me is the attempt to replace the Divine Commission on the lives of women with playing house.
All it looks like is a big fancy agenda to encourage women to bury any gift or talent they have for ministry that isn't PC (Patterson Correct).
Mara, you have nailed it. Well said.
These women most likely believe they are better Christians for taking these courses. They can play their 'role' better. It comes back to works theology that promotes a Martha instead of Mary.
Tom Parker,
Bob Cleveland has never supported anyone or anything "unquestioningly."
Have you ever read the guy's posts? Bob has done very well in life because he knows how to "question" people.
cb
CB:
I asked Bob the question and not you.
When has Bob ever questioned PP?
Tom Parker,
You know, of late, Tom Parker, I have answered every question you have asked me. I have overlooked your insults. I have tried to treat you with dignity in giving you an honest response.
But, you have continued to be extremely rude in your behavior.
You know what, Tom Parker. I think I will continue to treat you with dignity and continue to make an effort to respond to your questions honestly.
On the other hand, you may respond as you wish.
Your question was:
"When has Bob ever questioned PP?"
Answer: 2006 SBC, 2007 SBC, 2008 SBC. I don't think he questioned anyone at the 2009 SBC. Of course, I could be wrong. I was not with him the entire time.
Also, Tom Parker; I know of no one any more vocal about Sheri Klouda than Bob Cleveland. He and Peg visited the Kloudas on two occasions I know of myself.
I also know he sent his honorarium for teaching an eight week Doctrines class to her.
And like I said; Go read his posts.
cb
CB:
You said to me:"But, you have continued to be extremely rude in your behavior."
I assure you it is not my intention to be rude.
Tom:
"Why do you support PP unquestioningly?"
It's been a long LONG time since I laughed so much about anything, as I did that one.
:)
Bob:
I'm very sorry but I can not find where you have opposed PP.
Eagles' Rest > Blogs, Baptists, and Dr.Paige Patterson.
Eagles' Rest > Book Review: HARDBALL RELIGION: Feeling the Fury of Fundamentalism.
Well, Tom Parker,
All I can say is that across many tables during some two or three hour meals, in various eating establishments in more than one state Bob Cleveland has, with polished Christian and professional character, opposed Paige Patterson and challenged me as to why I did not oppose him on various issues.
Hey, come on down. We will buy your lunch and you can listen in first hand.
cb
CB and Bob:
When a person is wrong they admit it and I admit I was wrong about Bob opposing Dr. Patterson.
My sincerest apologies to you Bob Cleveland.
Tom,
Accepted, thanks, and never was a problem here.
:)
Rex Ray has done a good evaluation of my debate with CB and I agree with most of it.
CB appears to be constantly angry. I get very focused angry when I think of how my beloved SBC has been turned upside down over half-truths and inuendo over people I studied under and have great respect for. I am really angry when I see the deception and ego involved among supposed "humble leaders".
I have suffered personally and existentially since 1979 and the cause of that suffering was witnessed by me in Houston as it was done. Moderates did their best to logically explain and listen. Fundamentalists just cranked out the vote every year until they won and we quit.
Now, our money is wasted and our missionaries virtually abandoned while the winners live in Pecan Manor and other fine facilities, used a private jet until caught, and yet are not held accountable for money given the Cooperative Program in good faith by naive churches and members who bought into their words, not knowing their actions.
I would liken myself to Jesus as he viewed the moneychangers on the Temple steps getting rich off innocent worshipers. He got mad as hell and pulled a whip to send them scurrying. I chose my words carefully in the last sentence, because so many think his human perfection denies him the right to get mad as hell at people destined to hell according to what he said clearly in Matthew 23.
I based my SEBTS observations of fact, mostly on my own experience and eyes. I asked questions of, for example--the contractor on the President's home renovation under Louie Drummond. It was money given in good faith to missions which was used to support opulent living on Magnolia Hill with Mrs. Drummond having attend the Cardon Blu school of cooking in Paris (at whose expense I don't know). She couldn't possibly accept the fresh bass I had just caught at Falls Lake 2 hours before because she might smell of fish in cleaning it.
You see, I am a hard working regular guy who believes in doing a hour's work for an hour's pay. I don't think much of taking much money given for missions to do everything but support the missionary on the field.
Further, I have a personal stake in this dog and pony show because my father pioneered Juvenile Rehabilitation for the HMB in its authentic ministry days. I know what humble servants and frugal leadership the HMB had in the 50's-80's which no longer exists. I don't like con men of the SBC today nor the Pharasees of Jesus' day.
If I have gone overboard in being angry, then please accept my apology. If, on the other hand, I have given a good whipping to moneychangers in the Temple, I would appreciate the same respect given to Jesus in his day.
At the same time I am sure the followers were saying to themselves, "Man he is in trouble now and I will just keep my mouth shut!"
Gene S,
Nothing has changed the facts that you lied about statements 1,2,and 3 and you presented a misinformed position on statements 4 and 5.
That is the simple part.
The question is why did you do it?
Like I said earlier, maybe you hunger for attention and you fabricated a story to appear to know things you do not know.
Maybe you are just an antagonistic personality and you are just acting out your natural inclinations.
Maybe it is a pathological problem. Some people are pathological liars and they cannot stop without serious help.
Maybe you hate successful people or you hate people in authoritative positions.
Maybe you just hate Paige Patterson for some reason.
Maybe you are just mean.
Or finally maybe you are now just lonely and will say most anything to feel a part of something.
Whatever the reason, you did not tell the truth.
But, you did say you were willing to face God with it. So, I guess you will. But I pray you don't. I pray you deal with this as you should.
cb
CB Scott,
I'm not sorry to keep bothering you, but do you believe your words to Gene would have more credibility if you answered my question:
“Did Paterson lie when he told the crowd, “We got all of them”?
Even though the editor of the Baptist Standard is a friend of mine, he would not print my letter concerning the matter because the Standard would have to get ‘verification’ from Patterson.
I believe the Standard would have been as successful as getting Obama to prove his birth certificate.
Rex,
Sorry, I am just now seeing your question.
Let me clear up something with you first about Gene S and what was actually said.
I am going to post the whole comment again.
"Gene S,
Let's go back to the original five statements you made and work from there.
Statement 5:
"Their predicessor even added to the full renovation of the President's Home a climate controlled closet in the attic to protect Mrs. Drummond's furs! I ran into the contractor and we had a little talk about renovations since I worked my way through college doing Trim Carpenter work. All he could tell me was that no one knew the cost officially / Mrs. Drummond could never make her mind up until after initial work was done / which had to be torn out and redone--sometimes 3-4 times--at the same cost of the initial work X 3-4! He was appalled as a member of a local Baptist church!"
Gene S,
Mrs. Drummond did have some furs.
There was very little storage in the president's house. There was an area framed up in the attic and an AC vent was put in it. No additional unit was installed to cool the attic closet. It was actually a very small closet. A mistake was made in the framing of the closet. A rafter was cut and not repaired. later a leak in the roof occurred. The repair of the roof cost more than the closet.
During the Drummond's tenure, there was no "full renovation" of the house. There was some remodeling of part of the house.
Maybe, Gene S, you would consider the remodeling as a renovation. If so I concede to the renovation of the house."
Rex,
Notice this:
"...."Their predicessor even added to the full renovation of the President's Home a climate controlled closet in the attic...."
"....a climate controlled attic...." does imply "an additional unit" was installed to sustain a specific temperature in the closet from the rest of the house.
That was simply not the case.
Also notice this:
"Maybe, Gene S, you would consider the remodeling as a renovation. If so I concede to the renovation of the house."
I gave Gene S the benefit of the doubt on statement number 5.
Later he refused the truth of the closet and why it was built.
Rex, I cannot change the fact that Gene S lied about that of which he lied. But he did lie and it has nothing to do with seeing things from a different perspective.
Rex, you are a reasonable man. Therefore, I simply ask you to go back and read closely the exchange between Gene S and me. I was not engaging him about the SBC or his position on any of the politics in the SBC. I engaged him about five specific statements he made; Two of which are of erroneous information and then three of which he just plain lied.
Now to your question:
"When Patterson told me Criswell’s Study Bible answered all the ‘errors’ they could, but told the crowd, “We got all of them!” Was he lying?"
Rex, truthfully, I have no way of knowing that. I was not there. And I do not know the context of the statement.
If you are ultimately asking me if the man has ever lied of which I have knowledge; then the answer is yes.
Rex, I buried two good folks last week. You and I are getting a little long in the tooth. We need to make plans for that lunch together before one of us "crosses Jordan."
Give me a call sometime. Would love to talk to you.
cb
CB--
There is a distinct difference between "having a difference of opinion" and "LYING." You are such a word craftman having worshiped at the feet of PP that you should know the difference!
On the other hand, the "King of Kings" in the SBC always has proper underlings do his open criticism and dirty work---kind of like Judas telling the soldiers who Jesus was for a price.
If you take Judas as your role model, then I curse you in the name of Jesus, the Christ, our Lord.
The only other thing I can see in what you said and how your actions is a 1:1 replication of my little 5 year old grandsons who sometimes fight. They love to use dirty words at this stage in their development. One of them is "LIAR" shouted non-stop.
As a wise grandparent, I take one aside and say, "That is a bad word and you are not to use it. Just because he said it different from you DOES NOT make him a liar!"
If that doesn't work, he must go to his room / forfeit a toy / or get his hinnie whipped.
WHICH ONE DO YOU CHOOSE, little boy?????? I've already warned you twice not to use that word.
Believer333,
I have already said, buried in the above comments, that the SWBTS Women's program sounded like a real-life version of the Stepford Wives. Interesting!
Believer333,
I have already said, buried in the above comments, that the SWBTS Women's program sounded like a real-life version of the Stepford Wives. Interesting!
CB--
You seem to be such an expert knowing everything to the most intimate degree-----
YET, I KNOW you were not an administrator there when the Drummonds moved into Magnolia Hill and it was renovated----the exact amount makes no difference----IT WAS RENOVATED.
A less than 5 year old President's Office in Staley Hall was also renovated completely without a doubt. It was nice and likely had Broyhhill Furniture in it given by the same Foundation which funded the project OUTSIDE SBC mission money. Now tell me you didn't see the commercial running everywhere from Broyhill Manufacturing and on "The Price Is Right."
A guy like you would probably argue with a sign post and then declare there is no such thing as Broyhill Manufacturing in the Greensboro-High Point-Winston Salem triangle of NC. Does God, Himself, reveal such things as He supposedly did your Inerrant Bible???? When one is on thin ice, he usually blames his anger AND lack of civility saying, "God directed me to do this even though it contained multiple lies I knew were lies at the time I told it."
I'll give you one last chance to redeem yourself in truth telling:
Did Mrs. Drummond or did she not have things done and redone 3-4 times over causing 3-4 times as much CP money to be spent on the house than necessary????? AND taking it from our mission causes.
Were you possibly a student then beginning to prove how valuable you could be as one of the Pharisee' "junk yard dogs" to protect their questionable behind-the-scenes activities????
Gene and CB,
Just an observation.
Both you guys are pretty darn bright. Both you guys are cut from the same cloth, and I would have no problem being friends with either of you were we located in close proximity to each other.
But, C.B., the allegation of personal character flaws with those you converse with often causes people to dislike communicating with you. Words like "pathological" or "liar" or "you are lonely," "you hate," or to question a brother in Christ's spiritual condition seems get under all our skin.
Some people receive such comments about their character or spiritual condition (people like David Rogers and Jerry Rankin) and say nothing. Others, like Gene, don't. He has come back at you in like manner. I, like Rex, believe he has said things against you out of his focused anger. I don't, by any means, believe him to be "an angry man" (as you allege), but see him as one who doesn't like to be personally punched in the gut of character. Whether a person remains "calm" in his writing or is "volatile" (as Rex observes about the dialogue between Gene and CB) is not the issue at hand. The problem is when we make disagreements a personal issue of character. I wish we all would not do that.
I trust what I've said makes sense.
But, in closing, allow one final observation. I learned long ago that on the school playground, reasoning does not often work with the bully who is picking on the weak or defenseless. It takes someone unafraid of the bully to punch him in the face.
My prayer is that no Southern Baptist ever picks on the weak or the defenseless, but exhibits the character of Christ who came to heal the sick and needy, minister to the poor and broken, and deliver those in chains.
But honestly, I struggle with whether or not to overlook a punch delivered to protect the weak.
It is a question that I regularly and consistently ask myself. I am not perfect--far from it, but I would rather be known for a punch delivered for the protection of the defenseless than the bully who is punching a perceived weakling to get his way.
I've gone back and read this comment stream with those thoughts in mind.
Blessings to you both.
In His Grace,
Wade
Believer 333,
You quoted someone saying, “Why have there been so many church turmoil’s…which puts him totally in charge of all things …”
Then you said, “This is what happened to the small local Baptist church I was going…
The only reason I am free to be this specific is because no one knows who or what church I am speaking of. (Monday Dec 28 12:41 PM)
I hear what you’re saying but I believe I’m free to speak truth knowing there may be ‘consequences’.
More than once what I’ve said on Wade’s post has been emailed to deacons resulting in ‘consequences’.
On my birthday (March 10), I received this email:
“Pastor xxx, This was the last comment on this subject before Wade Burleson deleted all the comments. I’m CC Brother Rex and you guys can always contact me for some Brotherly Advice…
[Comment:] REX RAY, To whom it may concern BAD GOSSIP, BY A BAD BOY…
Like all people we Hate Change. Pastor xxx is trying to install church directives and discipline at xxx in accordance with SBC standards…
Brother REX, behave Yourself!!!”
A regional director missionary was invited to our deacon’s meeting where he shook his finger in my face and in a loud voice, “If you don’t like the way things are done in this church, leave.”
Even though they never heard his words, for some reason around 30% of our congregation have taken his advice.
Rex Ray--
I just clicked on your name and found your blog. It indicates you are an active layman and businessman, just as I now am.
It is interesting how, when I became the owner of my insurance practice and, now, my Tree Surgery Company how my perspective became even more analytical of what is going on with current SBC leadership.
It is the same as corporate America where people work for wages while Executives enjoy a rediculously large income, non-taxable perks beyond imagination. It is often 3-4 times taxable income. Much of that income is in stock options, etc. which are all non-taxable until exercised.
These excesses are what us tax paying citizens are now finding consumed the Bush Bailouts which are continuing under the new Administration. Our taxes were given---we now own 61% of GM---have they reduced the price of their autos to reflect my taxpayer money already paid for their product?????
In the Insurance world I quickly found there were debit agents and there were Estate Tax Planning agents. Guess which ones were filthy rich and which ones barely made enough to survive! One of these guys plays golf every day in Chesapeake, VA, so he can join up with a threesome of wealthy professionals / executives. As they go about the course, he restrains his skills as a collegiant semi-pro player. The matter of "how to save taxes with proper use of insurance" comes up.
Another always ride First Class when he travels. In doing so he gets into a general converstion with the passenger beside him and before the trip ends he is invited to that wealthy man's office to share his special knowledge!
They are already rich, but both men cited above can save them even more using tax loop holes known by the corporate CPA / tax advisors / and skilled and equally knowledgeable Insurance Professionals with my same LUTCF designation or the older CLU/ChFc or such. Each designation is equal to a graduate MS or PhD. They are smart and analytical and they make 3-figure incomes just like their corporate counterparts.
Having said this, I encourage anyone reading this blog to click on Rex Ray's name and look at the totally accurate and incisive things he says about SBC shenanigans since 1979. Here, you have just seen the tip of the iceburg---Rex shows the 7/10 foating beneath the surface so that anyone reading it cannot claim ignorance!
Our current Pharisees leading the SBC are so "special" that Reccord had a private jet standing by at Peachtree Industrial Airport while missionaries are tramping aroung the jungle because we can't afford to provide them with a proper vehicle.
Perhaps, by putting it into Corporate America perspective, the blog readers will begin to understand why a few of us join Wade in his concerns about Pecan Manor, etc., etc., etc. . . . . . . You have not seen the half of it yet. Beneath the Pharisee fine rob with philactery hanging around neck lies a bunch of pretenders who rob the faithful givers blind.
Just back up a bunch and re-read the Matthew 23 update. It is no lie nor is it a distortion--just an update to 1979 SBC!
Wade,
It is a strange relationship you and I have had over the last few years. That is a fact.
And when I reflect upon it, I think most of our differences are rooted in our having some philosophical differences about the SBC as a whole (although, we have agreed to the point of unified sacrifice on some of the specifics). We also differ in certain theological positions.
Due to the additional fact that we both have strong personalities and our convictions come from intense personal scrutiny we have and do clash from time-to-time. Yet, I have always respected your grit and steel.
It is also true that I promised my wife I would cease to fight with you. She reminded me that she and your wife had much in common and had suffered much because their husbands had taken some strong stands about issues in the SBC.
Wade, since that time I have made an effort not to cross swords with you about SBC issues or anything else for that matter. Karen is right. Our families have paid their dues for being married to outspoken mavericks in the SBC.
It is also true that we have come up to the "scratch line" a couple of times since I made that promise, but I think we both saw no future in the conflict so it ended without much firepower being used.
I also realize that as Rex said, I have been quick to call a person a liar at times. I have tried to curb that much over the last couple of years. I realize that perspective is the issue at times and people were not lying with willful intent.
You also know I have a strong sense of justice and will come to the defense of those who I see being mistreated. You have exhibited the same characteristic. Sometimes we have clashed due to our perspectives as to who was being mistreated. (actually that has happened often)
Now, to the issue at hand:
Wade, you know some of my history, though not all, as I do yours, though not all.
My contention with Gene S was not over our conflicting positions about SBC politics. Frankly, I am coming to a place in life where that is just not very important anymore. I wasted too much of my life with it and the cost was just too great in many ways. (I think you will understand what I mean by that without me saying much more.)
My contention with Gene S was due to him saying things that I know are simply not true about SEBTS and its former administration. I can see it no other way than he has, with willful intent, lied.
Wade, this is not a case of having a different perspective. This is simply an issue of a man not telling the truth. Like, I said I do not know why he lied, but I know he did. I listed some reasons why I think he may have lied, but I don't know any of them to be factual. You have taken issue with those statements and that is fine. I understand. You seek fairness and so do I.
Wade, never forget that where I knew the Pattersons to be wrong I have said so. I have also defended them when I know that they are innocent. I think I have been pretty consistent in that.
It is true that I am a flawed man, Wade, but I make an effort to be honest no matter the cost. Naturally, there are times I fail even at that. But this is not one of those times. I have told the truth here.
None the less, (and although I make no concessions as to my position) I will cease to challenge Gene S on this issue for the sake of a promise made to my wife and and a strange respect I have for you.
Give me a call sometime. Or if you pass through; lunch is on me.
cb
Wade--
I appreciate what you have to say today and what you have exposed over the years. Seldom does "truth telling" gain such a following. This tells me people crave for just one insider SBC pastor who still knows what truth is!
I make no apology for my statements to CB. He reminds me of when my son didn't want to go to school and even claimed to be sick to avoid it.
I went to his room and talked with him. His problem was a bully picking on him constantly just like a few tried on me knowing I was a "Preacher's Kid." I made up my mind the next one that did it would get clobbered.
He did / I did / it was the last time anyone else at Clarkston High School messed with the "Preacher's Kid." The same could be said of Jesus with the moneychangers--there comes a time to show the bully he is not feared!!!
I advised my son:
"Tomorrow when he comes out ready to mess with you again, keep a smile on your face so he doesn't know what is coming. When he gets close enough, you hit him as hard as you can right beneath his rib cage in the middle of his belly. He will probably fold, but, if he doesn't then kick him in the nuts and keep on kicking until he begs for mercy.
Whatever you do, DO NOT LET HIM GET UP AFTER THE FIRST BLOW!
My son came in after school the next day with a gigantic smile on his face. "What happened?" I asked.
"I did just like you said, daddy, and when he hit the ground he started crying like a baby. Everyone was laughing at him and we all went on to have a good time on the playground today. I'm a hero now daddy! I'm a hero!"
"Way to go, son!!! There are times when enough is enough and someone has to stand up, draw a line in the sand, and be willing to blast anyone foolish enough to cross it!" was my reply as I hugged him and patted him on the back.
The Bible does not record any conversations after Jesus put it to the moneychangers at the Temple. I have always wondered what they said AND I think I know: "Way to go, Jesus, way to go. It should have happened years ago. I just wish I had the same guts you had today!"
CB:
I do wish to apologize to you for my tone of voice in my comments the last few days. No other word can describe my tone but rude. I will do my best in the future to engage you in conversation without being rude. I truly am sorry! My thanks for your understanding.
CB--
For a moment there I thought you were going to make a good Baptist statement:
"Let's just agree to disagree and go on with life."
THEN, you start defending yourself once more as to your righteousness and my lying.
I'm going to end this fist fight on the school yard by not keeping you down and kicking you until your pants start bleeding, and you can't get up.
John Kennedy faced off with the Russians over missles in Cuba. As a school child in the Atlanta Metro area I knew we were the largest city closest to Cuba with all rail service / air travel / highways in the Southeastern USA coming together. We were also the commercial, financial, and corporate hub of the Southeast.
Kennedy gave the Russians an "honorable out." We returned concessions to Russia using "back channels of deplomacy," by removing the missles with nuclear warheads out of Turkey and other countries all around the Russian borders. Instead, we bagan to race them to the moon.
Do you think Kennedy noticed his children playing in his office and the fact a nuclear war would also put missles on Washington, DC, New York City, and other highly populated centers? Don't you think Kruschiev looked at his children grown with grandchildren with the same eyes?
For the sake of the future and our children--seeing Christians love and forgive rather than fight--it is important to behave more like Christ and less like the Pharasees. They just kept putting out more rules and regulations--and suckering superstitious people into changing street money for Temple money with a great difference in value for what the Temple money cost.
CB--for you I clearly say, "Let's just agree to disagree and I honor your sense of integrity with hopes you will honor mine."
I will consider you a better man--if you will ask my forgiveness for you calling me a liar and distorter of truth. I'm willing to give you BUT not until asked.
OK, I know little about SEBTS after my graduation from there in Dec. 1987. And what I do "know" now is from memory, which is never perfect. Still, it is all I have to go on.
When I was a student there, the cafeteria was a great place to eat and socialize. Of course, our finances being what they were, I did more socializing than eating there, but I recall no glaring structural problems at the time.
Again while I was a student, it was mostly students who had their kids in Ruby Reid. Mrs. McCloud was its director, and her hushand was the librarian at SEBTS. My wife also worked there. Perhaps by the 90s, it was more town folks than students, I don't know. But there are remedies for non-payment. That's why there are civil courts and why sheriff's departments have officers who do nothing but serve civil papers.
I was only in the President's office and home a couple of times, so I can add nothing about it. I do recall the controversy over the fur storage under Dr. Drummond, with some back then saying there was a full-fledged cool-storage vault built and others that nothing more was done than adding an a/c vent into an existing closet. I have no personal knowledge of the matter.
I do however recall reading, I think in the SEBTS alumni magazine about how students were counted after Dr. Lolly's departure. Frankly, I am not sure now exactly when that was--whether under Dr. Patterson or Dr. Drummond. According to my memory of this article, they reported something like "student units" for accounting purposes, and they got this number by defining a full time student as one who took a certain number of hours, which was less than the number of hours I took as a normal full-time student. Consequently some who in earlier times whould have been part-time were now counted as full time. And it seems as though the article said any extra hours carried were put into some sort of pool, then divided by the new definition of hours for a full time student, and that number then added to the student population. In other words, say (for sake of argument) a full time student was defined as one carrying 10 hours (since I don't recall the exact number). But say the real full time student carried 12 or 14, so those 2 or 4 hours were put into a column and added to all the other 2 to 4 hours, then totaled, and divided by 10, and that many students were then added to the number. I also seem to recall that the last time I stated this--on another blog--that C.B. said I was wrong, and challenged me to prove it--while more-or-less simultaneously, the comment stream was closed to new comments.
"A regional director missionary was invited to our deacon’s meeting where he shook his finger in my face and in a loud voice, “If you don’t like the way things are done in this church, leave.”"
Rex Ray, sorry to hear of this. Usually, when that has been said to one, it has been said to others, and often there will indeed be some who take the advice.
This is the way American corporations are run. It is not the way that churches should operate. It is unfortunate that churches often must have a corporate mindset to appease the taxation process. and then it gets carried into how the whole church operates. Leaders are to be serving the people of God, not the other way around. Yes, it gets sticky when disagreements come. Nevertheless, if disagreements were handled with prayerful research into Scripture and heartfelt love of the brethren, things might turn out differently. But that approach takes longer. :)
John--
You have reminded me of some of the "strange" ways SEBTS tried to sustain its number count when the reality was--they had gone to almost nothing!
I dislike dishonesty in any form. The school was put on probation for its "strange" ways of handling faculty and administrative matters. I lost a significant gift from the Broyhill Foundation and I received a letter from Mr. Broyhill, himself, explaining the rationale: if you can't do business in an honorable way, we won't support you---and we know
Randall Lolley and you have treated him and the other administration members in a dispicable way.
Things on paper were never the way it really was if anyone visited and saw with their own eyes.
If CR was so wonderful, why did the winners have to tell distorted things to sustain their appearance?
In my mind, it is lying. In the mind of CB, et.al, it is us trying to tell lies about them. Either way, someone is playing fast and loose with the truth. I am confident enough with my version to stand before God and have nothing to hide so I will speak only for myself.
"CP funds should not be used to teach "Homemaking". It is just that simple."
No kidding!
Lydia is right about there being a plethora of places a woman may learn how to keep a home and TV is FULL of shows about how to decorate and cook. It is ridiculous to have a "homemaking" degree program.
How does this whole picture (ie., opulence) fit into the Patterson's quiverful statements? Or are they placing burdens on the backs of others while not lifting a finger to help them with those burdens? Or do they think more highly of themselves than they do others? Or?
I wonder if any of the homemaking courses include training on how to take a punch to the nose by your husband like a lady?
"You know, what exactly is wrong with women who are called of God to take care of their own families WELL learning how to do so?"
Nothing. But, honestly, a degree? It isn't rocket science. And, they can learn the old fashioned way....by DOING! That is how I learned. How long does it take to learn how to do laundry, scrub a toilet, mop the floors, iron a shirt and read a cookbook? What am I missing?
And I am speaking as a woman with 10 children. There is nothing that course could offer me to prepare me for taking care of all that I have to take care of. Life is what has prepared me.
My advice for taking care of a home is the same as Nikes':
Just do it!
And, then if someone is struggling another woman can come alongside them and offer her years of experience.
With all the homemaking blogs and books there is no reason to waste time on a college education for homemaking.
A woman's time would be better spent getting a degree in some field that is of interest to her and that could be of far more value in the future.
Just like Dr. Klouda's degree and expertise was invaluable for providing for her family until someone decided she was not doing what a woman was supposed to be doing.
Sorry. I am going to side with Jesus on this one. Mary chose the better thing. Marthas are a dime a dozen. In my flesh, I am a much better Martha than a Mary. So, some homemaking program would just be a millstone tied around my neck distracting me from what was really important. After all, Martha was DISTRACTED by her homemaking "duties".
Do they teach "modesty" in the homemaking degree program?
Because, Pecan Manor is a flagrant example of the immodesty that Paul was pointing out.
I lost count at 5 Christmas trees and 2 decked out dining rooms.
How many Christmas trees makes a woman worthy of getting labeled Titus 2 in these circles?
I am lucky to have the time to find to put up the one modest Christmas tree I put up every year. But, then I am busy with making sure that my priorities and responsibilities are fulfilled. You know? Real life stuff.
My decorating scheme is to keep it simple. I would rather invest my money in books than gold and silver baubles meant to impress others.
The art of hospitality is making ALL people feel welcome and at ease.
This whole thing doesn't seem in keeping with Scripture at all, imho.
Corrie, that is an great observation, that Martha was 'distracted' from what was the more excellent way, by her homemaking duties.
Home Depot has excellent and cheap classes that teach how to, let's say, retile a bathroom or kitchen. I plan on taking one so I can tile all my bathrooms. Do they teach home repairs as part of this homemaking course? I don't know how many times I had to fix a toilet or replace a faucet but the guys at Home Depot are always very helpful in their advice on how to do these things.
Also, any sewing store offers sewing classes and they are cheap, too. I learned how to sew from reading the encyclopedia and then following a pattern. I learned how to quilt by taking a class at the store where I bought my sewing machine.
And, I sell cookware and teach others how to use kitchen utensils and make cost-effective meals for their families. I even teach them how to make fancy desserts and party foods for entertainment needs. And, anyone could go to one of my shows and learn for FREE.
Again, not rocket science. Anyone who can fog a mirror can be taught these things in a very SHORT time.
Are there theological courses, like Greek and Hebrew and hermeneutics, being taught in this homemaking course?
If not, shame on them!
"Are there theological courses, like Greek and Hebrew and hermeneutics, being taught in this homemaking course?"
The full patriarchalist would not want his wife learning more than he does nor would he want her to be able to question him on his interpretations. Those who learn Hebrew and Greek, often end up with questions about the traditional view of things.
CB Scott, you said:
“Now to your question:
When Patterson told me Criswell’s Study Bible answered all the ‘errors’ they could, but told the crowd, “We got all of them!” Was he lying?"
Rex, truthfully, I have no way of knowing that. I was not there. And I do not know the context of the statement. If you are ultimately asking me if the man has ever lied of which I have knowledge; then the answer is yes.”
CB, I wanted you to say ‘if that’s what happened, then he was lying’.
So, I’ll tell the context/history of the statement in three comments.
This is the letter I wrote the Baptist Standard they would not print. It is #72 of the 76 letters written to the Baptist Standard by 59 people from July 1998 to April 2002.
The letters are the ones I liked – of course. :) since the Standard prints both ‘sides’. The letters are also on my blog.
72. Bible: A Political Football? (Not printed)
___Page Patterson wrote the foreword to ‘The Criswell Study Bible’ in
1975. He said one crucial task was: “Harmonization of apparent
discrepancies and explanations of passages thought by some to
contain error are afforded the reader.”
___After his preaching at Prestonwood Baptist Church on March 26,
2000, and standing in line, I asked him if his statement meant ‘all’
discrepancies and errors or only ‘some’ of them.
___He said, “All of them.”
___“What about the leader’s daughter being dead in Matthew and alive
in Mark and Luke?”
___He changed his answer to, “We got all we could.”
___Looks like conservative leaders won the political arena by
condemning their opponents by saying what is popular but don’t
believe what they preach.
___Maybe God didn’t want us to ‘see’ the Bible ‘perfect’ as doubting
Thomas and worship the Bible, but to believe His Word through faith
and say with Job, “Thought He slay me, yet will I trust him.”
___In Paul’s day, ‘milk Christians’ were legalists who thought they
were better than others and followed leaders that led to Catholics.
___“Woe to the land whose king is a child.” (Eccl. 10:16) With all the
confusion and strife, ‘Woe to a convention whose leaders are ‘milk
Christians.’
___Rex Ray___Bonham
CB,
Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas was at the crossroads of staying with the ‘Old Convention of Texas’ (BGCT) or joining the ‘New Convention of Texas’ (SBCT).
Patterson was President of the SBC and was invited to preach. I wanted to hear him, but to kill two birds with one stone, I arrived early and put about 400 eight page articles under windshield wiper blades.
The title was “Leaders, in Christ Name, May Deceive” which was based on “Many shall come in My name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.” (Mark 13:6)
In my opinion, these deceivers could not “come in my name” and say they were Christ; therefore Jesus warned that many saying, “Jesus was Christ” would deceive many.
The article covered slander of the BGCT, untruth of inerrancy by six qualifications, eight Bible verses that Criswell did not attempt to explain, and four Bible verses explained with a vivid imagination.
My plan didn’t work because two guys told me to retrieve my articles.
Remembering my brother’s statement; “It’s a free country” that landed him in jail, I missed most of Patterson’s sermon.
He did take one of my articles, but I didn’t see it hanging from any Christmas tree.
Afterwards, Prestonwood joined the ‘New Convention’ and their pastor became the next President of the SBC.
A coincidence huh?
CB,
Meanwhile back at the ranch, I stood with Criswell’s Study Bible under my arm in line to ‘congratulate’ Patterson on his sermon. :)
I told him I had a missionary son in Israel, but it was taking more courage to ask him a question than swimming across Galilee.
I showed what he had written in the Forward to Criswell’s Bible, and asked if all the errors and discriminations were “afforded the reader” or only some of them.
He looked at the crowd and shouted, “We got all of them!”
I asked but what about the ruler’s daughter being dead in Mathew and alive in Mark and Luke?
He got close like he was taking me into his confidence and said softly, “We got all we could.”
I felt a little bad as if I had tricked him. I said thanks and left.
Well CB, that’s the context and I’ll ask again, in your opinion did Patterson lie?
CB,
There’s a difference in ‘swearing something’s true’ and ‘believing something’s true’
With that thought in mind, if you believe he lied, why do you think he did it?
Why does the story of the rich man (often called the young rich ruler) come to mind after viewing this Christmas video of Pecan Manor?
Also, I'm not sure why, but Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16) also came to mind.
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
I would say PP and Dorothy really put their heart into their beloved Pecan Manor. Too bad they can't take it with them.
In my flesh, I am a much better Martha than a Mary. So, some homemaking program would just be a millstone tied around my neck distracting me from what was really important. After all, Martha was DISTRACTED by her homemaking "duties".
Tue Dec 29, 06:03:00 PM 2009
Oh Corrie, so true, so true! She chose the better thing so why do we have folks telling women it is Christlike to become a Martha?
"The art of hospitality is making ALL people feel welcome and at ease. "
This was my mother's motto. And she was NO domestic and a horrible cook. Yet, our home was always filled with company. Many times strangers such as missionaries mixed with folks from church and many students and of course always extended family.
No one noticed the beans were from a can. She used to always wink at me and say: it is the fellowship, not the food. It was a wonderful home to grow up in because Christ and HIS people were at the center. Not decor and showy fancy meals. The guests were impressed with love. I am so thankful for that legacy so that I can disern the silly and worldy now for what it is. It did take me a while because I got off track with the worldly.
On Topic,
http://www.innocentenglish.com/funny-amazing-pictures-videos/amazing-animal-pics-vids/baby-buffalo-vid.html
Well, on topic from a point of view.
If you can imagine a large herd of water buffalo being the silent majority of Southern Baptists,
six lions being Patterson, Pressler & Company,
crocodiles being feuding fundamentalists,
and a baby buffalo being individual priesthood, autonomy of the church, and the role of women.
After the lions win a tug-a-war with the crocodiles and have the baby,
the buffalos surround the lions.
A bull (Gene) flips a lion high in the air and rescues the baby.
And once again ‘doctrine’ takes a back seat to ‘missions’ and Southern Baptists cooperate to win the world for Christ.
Come to think of it; those lions being all female must have degrees from Dorothy’s cooking class as they’ve been brainwashed to provide all the meals.
CB has been strangely quiet after our hour by hour debate. In the last day of quietness, I hope his prayer life--I know he has one as do I--has begun leading him to say, "Let's be friends and just agree to disagree."
We will see as the day goes by.
Here is the exact thing I would hope he asks my forgiveness:
I quote CB: "My contention with Gene S was due to him saying things that I know are simply not true about SEBTS and its former administration. I can see it no other way than he has, with willful intent, lied.
Wade, this is not a case of having a different perspective. This is simply an issue of a man not telling the truth. Like, I said I do not know why he lied, but I know he did. I listed some reasons why I think he may have lied, but I don't know any of them to be factual."
When "you don't know any of them to be factual" it would be wise to be less accusatory sticking with the facts.
My comments were based on facts as I know them with my own eyes, ears, and heart. I could be more exact as to fact if I could have gained admission to Magnolia Hill to see for myself that fur closet. I can assure you in eastern NC humid attic heat a simple air vent would not protect expensive furs. It's not called "God's little greenhouse" for no reason. That's why the best tobacco in the world grows so well here.
Had I been able to step behind the counter of the Registrar into the student file bin, I would know with my own eyes whether every student receiving a discounted CP-backed education came with the required document from his local CP-giving Baptist church. It would not tell me how long that student had been a member. They were politically savy enough to know how to advise students to get the break by joining a SBC church.
I have no reason to doubt CB's word on the plush wool carpet. It looked like such to me when I walked on it and saw it. If CB accomplished such baubles at a bargain basement price, I honor his good buying approaches. Having such things documented, I wonder if he can document my suspision that many students were not legitimate in their credentials.
Every student I talked with in the Library and on Campus told me they came from independent churches of all stripes from all over the country. Between their worship of PP and Jerry Falwell there was no doubt where their theological allegiencies lay.
(cont.)
What troubled me most during PP's reign at SEBTS was the amount of President worship. Under Binkley, Lolley, and Drumond I never heard such "person worship." Neither did I know of such direct political maneuvering to take over the NC Baptist State Convention which was accomplished in the last 10 years--i.e., we have Autonomy hidden in our new Incorporation Document that a Philadelphia Lawyer would have to read it several times over to find it! NC is now suffering the same budget deficits as the SBC!
Our governance is now from the Executive Committee recommendations rubber stamped by a smaller and smaller group attending the anual meeting. This year they went from the large coliseums at WF and Greensboro to a small convention center at the Four Seasons center. In a few more years they can meet in the chapel at the Raleigh Convention Headquarters. Frankly, I don't see why the Executive Committee just meets in the Men's Room at the headquarters and tells us what to do next announced to the WRAL Channel News reporters and a few other news bereaus from Charlotte and Greenboro. That would share our pronouncements across NC quickly and cheaply.
Our Baptist State newsjournal remains a beacon of hope under a good and fair Editor. He quakes in his boots every time his Board of Directors meets and is careful to tell as much truth as he can without bringing down the wrath of the "powers that be." Gone are the "Crusader Editors" we had in Marse Grant who died recently and Gene Puckett who still converses with me from time-to-time.
All our Institutions and Agencies officially received permission to elect their own Boards of Trustees.
We had a recent round of severe criticism of our formerly owned Colleges. All they can do now is criticize them as being "liberal and corrupt."
Many of the formerly tormented student pastor church can go to Cambell College, Baptist House of Studies at Duke, and Baptist Theological Seminary at Richmond--all CBF institutions--to find the kind of servant pastors they once trusted SEBTS to provide.
Things have changed in NC. It is not for the better, in my opinion. I hate it when my local Association has its regular Pastor's meeting each month and another group of fundamentalists meet without telling anyone at a local restaurant.
They have tried hard to make sure any pulpit becoming vacant gets a "proper" replacement at their encouragement and recommendation. My fellow student at SEBTS who described it as "corrupt" was the prime mover in this one.
Things had just---changed. The wise recognize it. The foolish follow the easy way of doing what PP and his buddies say they are to do, think, and act. I wonder how many trees will be in each of their homes next Christmas???
Gene S:
As to why CB is "strangely silent, please note the following, part of a comment CB made to Wade, 11:07AM on 12/29:
"None the less, (and although I make no concessions as to my position) I will cease to challenge Gene S on this issue for the sake of a promise made to my wife and and a strange respect I have for you."
He seems to be keeping that promise.
Second, as to the issues: CB's discussion with you centered on three specific statements you made:
"(1) Close the child development center because "women can take care of the children." (Paige's first BS degree--and I don't mean Batchelor of Science)
(2) Renovate office for 3rd time in 10 years. Paige had 2" thick wool carpet, leather with brass tacks furniture befitting the CEO of GM. I shot pictures, if anyone wants to come and see me. You won't believe it! My God, you ought to see the "glamor shot" picture of Dorothy on his credenza--HOT!!!
(3) Close Cafeteria claiming it was too expensive----only to build Dining Hall addition to President's home."
CB pointed out inaccuracies in each statement. That each one was wrong. You walked on carpet, he bought it. You say you know more than he does about it. He has gained admission to see the fur closet; you have not. You say you know more about what was done there than he does.
Your last 2 entries show this to be a diatribe against Dr. Patterson and CB Scott, no longer about the three statements, of yours, which CB said were false. Statements, of which he was in a far superior position to know the veracity, than were you from your talking to students and looking around.
And the inclusion of the reference to the photo of Mrs. Patterson, in Dr. Patterson's private office, would kill any credibility you might ever have had, in my mind. That remark was unthinkable.
-30-
Bob--
CB started the name calling. I thought he was about to utter the magic statement, "We just have a difference of opinion and we should, as good Baptists, agree to disagree.
CB chose not yet to utter such so I am encouraging him to do it and end this little altercation on a positive note so that I might regain some respect for him. Wade has clearly stated that he is prone to such epithets with anyone disagreeing with him. He should be a better man, in my opinion.
I am right now looking at my close up of Dorothy's glamor shot. I have it and would post it right now if it were in digital form, but I shot the office with a .35mm camera. If you want me to send a copy to you, just send me a self addressed envelope and $5 for my trouble and you may look at it for yourself.
Just don't either of you call me a liar. Them thar's fightin' words here in NC!
Gene,
There’s been lots of good advice ignored on Wade’s post, and I’m beginning to believe you’ve joined the group by not listening to what Bob explained.
I understand the word ‘liar’. My father never hit anyone, but everyone and I mean everyone that called him a liar, would find themselves flat on the floor with a knee in their stomach (prevents breathing), their face turning red (from collar twisting), and hearing a voice that would shake the dead: “TAKE IT BACK!”
He won the army’s mile race in World War I, but was too old to be a chaplain in World War II without Sam Rayburn’s help. He was on the front lines three days after D-Day with Patton’s third army until the war was over. Starting with a judo instructor in basic training, he never lost a wrestling match the four years he served.
Me? I’ve never had a fight in my life – maybe because I had a twin brother. :)
Well, I got off the subject. Gene, if you knew CB, you’d know how hard it is for him to stay silent, but in my opinion his silence is making him the better while you’re sounding like the giant that taunted the Jewish army.
Have you ever heard, ‘Quit while you’re ahead’?
Wade said, “…get under all our skin.” Using his words out of context, that expresses what I feel about some of your vocabulary.
I mean, you write words I’ve never spoken. Words I might expect to hear in a bar room, but not on a Christian blog.
Nuff said.
Rex--
I have said all I need to say right now on this subject.
As to the language, perhaps you have not become aware that Kion Greek is generally described as you describe some of my words--shall we say earthy.
Religious pretence of super rigteous perfection is our sad heritage from the Puritans. None of them could say, "I'm mad as hell!"
Most of them suffer from ulcers / mental problems / unresolved hostility. It is a false and pretending way of living. In my opinion, God gives us certain words to be used sparingly, but with enough force to let others know enough is enough.
Does anyone really think a bunch of fishermen and other hard working men in the real world were so saintly they only spoke with "Thee and Thou along with unadulterated sweetness which is almost sickening."
As a Psychology Major and trained counselor, the first rule of honesty is, "if it hurts, then cry / if you are mad, then cuss and get it out."
Also, those who are scoundrels and pretenders speaking only righteous words when their hearts are cruel and black, need the brute force of Jesus with a whip speaking Kion Greek so sneaky money changers scatter to the four corners of the Temple entrance! Let's just let Jesus be FULLY human as well as FULLY divine.
The substance of fruit is revealed when it’s been squeezed.
I share with you the 1994 article from Baptists Today relative to Russell Dilday's firing so the Pattersons could quickly occupy Pecan Manor:
By John Pierce
Fort Worth, Texas — March 9, 1994, is considered
by many to be a monumental day in
what supporters call the “conservative resurgence”
and detractors call the “fundamentalist
takeover” in the Southern Baptist
Convention. It was the day Russell Dilday
was fired as president of Southwestern Baptist
Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.
A decade later, Dilday is bringing his
dismissal and the surrounding events to light
in Columns: Glimpses of a Seminary Under
Assault, to be released by Smyth &Helwys
Publishing in November. The title comes
from the monthly columns Dilday wrote in
the seminary newsletter during his 16 years as
president.
Dilday said he re-read the columns in
preparation for another book to be released
in 2005 in which he reflects on the larger
issues concerning the SBC controversy that
began in the late ‘70s and significantly
reshaped the nation’s largest non-Catholic
denomination.
“I was struck by how well (the columns)
tell the story of the joys, accomplishments
and disappointments we experienced and
how the seminary family worked together to
keep Southwestern ‘lashed to the cross,’”
wrote Dilday in the book’s preface.
Dilday said the columns “speak for
themselves” and are a “remarkable and sometimes
sad chronicle of how the fundamentalist
takeover of the SBC from 1978 to 1994
ultimately undermined the world’s largest
seminary…”
The book is both history and commentary.
The various columns are preceded by
listings of “key events” such as seminary programs,
speaking engagements and other
contextual information. Dilday seems particularly
interested in communicating once
again with the many ministers, educators and
missionaries who came through Southwestern
during his tenure as president.
He writes: “I hope reflecting on these
years again will renew your appreciation for
the Southwestern of yesterday, will highlight
dangers to avoid in future models of ministry
training, and will clarify some of the mystery
of how such a great school could be captured
and pillaged.”
The cautious and affirmative columns of
a denominational executive are sandwiched
between more recent and direct comments of
one considered by sympathetic persons to be
a victim of fundamentalist politics. At times
Dilday refers to individual trustees who
helped carry out his dismissal by descriptions
such as “a Texas lawyer” or “another trustee
from North Carolina” rather than names.
However, he roundly portrays the majority
of trustees responsible for his ouster as
incompetent and often unsophisticated. He
even describes a scene in which one trustee, a
music evangelist, is asked to sing for the
seminary’s top donors.
“He was going to sing and whistle at the
same time,” writes Dilday. “What came out
was something close to the sound Donald
Duck makes in TV cartoons. It was humiliating
to all except the fundamentalist board
members…”
Dilday leaves no doubt about where he
places the direct blame for his ouster —
board chairman Ralph Pulley and those who
put him in leadership.
Pulley, who returned to the board in
1992 after already serving an unprecedented
12 years as a trustee, was described by Dilday
as “a source of contention at nearly every
meeting.” Dilday notes the close relationship
between Pulley, an attorney and deacon a
Dallas’ First Baptist Church, with then pastor
W.A. Criswell and associate pastor Paige
Patterson.
These two men, of course, were key
players in the rightward shift within the SBC
in recent decades. And, now, Patterson occupies
the president’s office on the seminary
campus from which Dilday was barred
immediately following his swift termination
in 1994.
I have two sewing machines ( an all-purpose Singer and a Brother embroidery machine), and I know how to use them. I have two rolling pins. I make my pie crusts from scratch, and my husband loves them. I make a mean blackberry cobbler. Not only can I southern fry and roast chickens -- I can scald, pluck, and gut chickens. If we run out of chickens, I can bag rabbits and turkeys with my own firearms. I also crochet, and I can cook over an open fire and a wood cook stove, and I know how to render lard.
May I have my seminary degree now, please?
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