Those who wish to use the BFM 2000 as a "tool" of accountablity to keep others "in line," use it as a "club" (their favorite kind of tool) to create conformity. Rather than autonomous churches cooperating in missions and evangelism, and rather than competent, Bible-believing Southern Baptists being granted the freedom to voice dissent on tertiary matters of the faith, these faux Baptists who advocate uniformity and conformity have no qualms of publicly humiliating Southern Baptists who disagree with them. They have now chosen to use their club against First Baptist Church, Decatur, Georgia, accusing that church of not being a true "Southern Baptist" church. They are moving to "disfellowship" from FBC Decatur for the church's refusal to abide by the BFM 2000 in just one single tenet. FBC Decatur is not being accused of denying the gospel. FBC Decatur is not being accused of denying the deity of Christ. FBC Decatur is not being accused of refusing denying believers baptism by immersion. FBC Decatur is being hammered for calling a pastor who is female.
This kind of "clubbing" (disfellowship) is absolutely absurd. It violates every major Baptist principle, not to mention the Word of Christ Himself who said, "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another." Where is our love for FBC Decatur? Where is our love for Julie Penninton-Russell. What, in heaven's name, is being done to our brothers and sisters in Christ at FBC Decatur?
I propose that if this act of "disfellowship" is allowed to occur, it will be very dangerous to the health of the Southern Baptist Convention. Why? If a Southern Baptist church is not granted the freedom to point out that she believes the BFM 2000 is in contradiction with Scripture, then all of us who claim to be Southern Baptists will have prostituted our heritage as Baptists. If our churches are not free to express their biblical dissent to the BFM 2000, we have ceased being a legitimate Baptist Convention. As Baptists, we have historically confessed our affirmation of Scripture alone. But think about what is happening in the Southern Baptist Convention in 2009 - The "clubbers" are calling other Southern Baptists "liberal" because their consciences are bound to the Word of God and not to the BFM 2000! Let me repeat the preceding incredulous fact using different words. Those who are using the BFM 2000 as a "club" have elevated a creed above the Bible! Who would ever thought this is where we Southern Baptists would end up as a Convention? I sure didn't.
The FORCED acceptance of the BFM 2000, by threatening to "disfellowship" from those churches who don't agree with every single one of its tenets, is patently absurd. Those who push "disfellowship" from churches that disagree with a portion of the BFM 2000 will destroy our convention if they are allowed to succeed. The SBC will have to eventually disfellowship from over 25,000 Southern Baptist churches. That is the number of SBC churches, at least according to one seminary professor, that have expressed disagreement with the BFM 2000 in either church practice or church doctrine in areas other than women pastors. Let me give three examples of such church disagreements with the BFM 2000, all of which have nothing to do with women pastors.
(Example 1). Dr. Nathan Finn, a professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, writes on his blog that most Southern Baptist churches and pastors disagree with the BFM 2000 and the doctrine of "closed communion." He writes:
"Over the course of the last generation a closed membership coupled with an open communion has become increasingly popular in the SBC. I suspect it is even the majority practice in many areas. It seems at least possible that communion is one doctrine where the Baptist Faith and Message takes a position that is not affirmed by many—maybe even most—of our churches. What this means for the Convention’s future remains to be seen" (Baptist, The Lord's Supper and Southern Baptists, p.5,6).
Well, Dr. Finn, if some would have their way, it means that those churches who do not affirm closed communion ought to be "disfellowshipped." Let them try. My church, the Emmanuel Baptist Church of Enid, Oklahoma has given over one million dollars to the Cooperative Program since 2000, and we practice open communion. We strongly DO NOT affirm the BFM 2000 in this area of closed communion, and I have made my objections to closed communion known verbally and in writing - but I remain a fully cooperating Southern Baptist. Let the closed communionist try to disfellowship us.
(Example 2) I have previously pointed out that the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message takes the semi-Pelagian view of original sin in Article III by teaching humans come under God's judgment "as soon as they are capable of moral action . . ." and asserts that only when there is personal and actual sin do sinners "become transgressors and are (placed) under condemnation." This peculiar doctrinal error, though not fatal to the Christian faith, is absolutely contrary to clear teaching of Scripture that "all" are condemned for the sin of Adam. In fact, the 2000 BFM's position on original sin is an altered version of what Southern Baptists have historically confessed we believe about this doctrine. I cannot, and will not, affirm the 2000 BFM in this doctrinal tenet, and have made my opposition known to it at every possible turn, verbally and in writing - but I remain a fully cooperating Southern Baptist.
(Example 3) Theologian Sam Storms has pointed out that the writers of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message have made a theological error, based upon their interpretation of a poor English translation of the Greek text, when in Article II C, on God the Holy Spirit, the Baptist Faith and Message 2000 states, "At the moment of regeneration He [i.e., the Holy Spirit] baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ.
Southern Baptist Dr. Storms writes about this error quite forcefully:
This BFM statement asserts that the Holy Spirit baptizes every believer into the Body of Christ. The problem is that there isn't a single, solitary biblical text which says that the Spirit baptizes anyone into anything. It is always and in every text Jesus Christ who baptizes believers in the Holy Spirit, the result of which is that we are incorporated into the Body of Christ . . . (Again), in no text is the Holy Spirit ever said to be the agent by which one is baptized. Jesus is the baptizer. The Holy Spirit is he in whom we are engulfed or the "element" with which we are saturated and deluged, resulting in our participation in the spiritual organism of the church, the body of Christ. I can only conclude that those responsible for writing the BFM 2000 were misled by a mistranslation of 1 Cor. 12:13. I encourage all to read again the prophecy of John the Baptist that Jesus "will baptize you with [lit., "in", the Gk. Preposition en] the Holy Spirit and with fire" (Mt. 3:11; Mk. 1:8; Lk. 3:16; Jn. 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16).
I could go on with other contradictions with Scripture in the BFM 2000, including the Landmark emphasis of the local church to the neglect of the biblical empahsis on the universal church (the bride of Christ), but the three above examples should suffice. You can't go disfellowshipping churches who disagree with the BFM 2000 or we will no longer be a true Baptist Convention.
The Point That We Southern Baptists Must Never Forget
Why is it that First Baptist Church, Decatur, Georgia, is now being "disfellowshipped" from the Georgia Baptist Convention? Why is it that the same people in Georgia who are pushing this ungodly action may very well try something similar at the Southern Baptist Convention in Louisville, Kentucky? What is it that is being said by such actions? Are they really exalting the BFM 2000 above the Bible and the soul's conscience to adhere to the Scriptures?
It is evident that some wish First Baptist Church, Decatur to be disfellowshipped because the church has called a pastor who is female, in violation of the 2000 Baptist Faith and Message. So what. There are thousands of churches that violate the BFM 2000, including mine, in other areas. Why are you singling out FBC, Decatur?
Why don't these alleged SBC leaders disfellowship from someone who is not afraid to call them out?
There are thousands of SBC churches that don't practice closed communion. Is the Southern Baptist Convention going to disfellowship each church? There are dozens and dozens of professors, hundreds of pastors and churches, who do not believe in the semi-pelagian view of original sin. Is the SBC going to disfellowship all of them? There are several who understand that the 2000 BFM is outright contradicts the Bible itself when it says that the "Holy Spirit" baptizes us. Is the SBC going to disfellowship those of us who believe the Bible over the BFM?
No, those leaders will not even begin to attempt to disfellowship us. They can't because the people would be in an uproar.
But the Georgia Baptist Convention, and possibly people in the SBC, may very well be planning to disfellowship from First Baptist Church, Decatur. I wonder if they are proceeding because they think Southern Baptsits won't object. Those pushing "disfellowship" from FBC Decatur claim "doctrinal accountability," but Southern Baptists better wisen up. There are thousands upon thousands of Bible believing, Christ-loving, evangelical men and women who believe the Bible teaches women are gifted in all areas of ministry, including pastoring and teaching. Some may not like that interpretation of the Bible, but the SBC is a cooperating Convention, not a creedalistic club of conforming churches that club dissenters. Just because the BFM 2000 prohibits "women" Senior Pastors, does not mean that a church who disagrees with the BFM 2000 and calls a woman pastor cannot be considered a cooperating Southern Baptist Church. Again, thousands and thousands of SBC churches disagree with the BFM 2000. Why pick on FBC Decatur?
I learned a long time ago that bullies on the playground must be confronted, or they will keep bullying. This move toward creedalism in the SBC must stop. It ain't Baptist. Not even close. It's time we Southern Baptists realized the absolute absurdity of "disfellowshipping" a church for not "affirming" the 2000 BFM. By God's grace the Georgia Baptist Convention will come to her senses and see the stupidity of her actions before the Southern Baptist Convention pulls a similar ungodly, unbaptistic and ridiculous action.
In His Grace,
Wade
P.S. If some object to this post by saying, "But if we have no doctrinal basis of agreement, then we can have no fellowship!" I respond, "You are absolutely correct! That is why nearly two and one half years ago I offered A Southern Baptist Statement of Cooperation that focuses solely on the essentials of the gospel of Jesus Christ and leaves out all those tertiary issues that evangelical, Bible-believing Christians disagree over.
218 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 218 of 218Wade,
I appreciate very much your stance on this issue as clearly the BF&M 2000 has been used as a club against those who don't agree with every tenet it contains. I share your distaste for the attitudes of those who would violate Christ's admonition to live in harmony and unity with fellow Christians by disfellowshipping a historic SBC church for its stance on women pastors. My question is simply this: Where was the outrage when 70+ missionaries were "clubbed" in similar fashion for not accepting every change introduced in the BF&M 2000?
Joe Blackmon says in a comment, "Not that I expect an answer to this but I really would like someone to help me understand why a church with a woman pastor would want to associate with the SBC given what the BFM 2000 says about women pastors."
His comment lacks historical perspective. Churches in theory at least could have actively participated in SBC life for 155 years (assuming they were founded in 1845 when the SBC was formed) while having a woman serve as pastor and they never would have been disfellowshipped by the convention because that issue didn't become a test of fellowship or a creedal statement until the adoption of the BF&M 2000.
Blackmon's comment ignores the fact that a church could have affiliated faithfully with the SBC for decades and suddenly, they find themselves no longer welcome--not because of their own action, but because of a change in the "rules" by a small handful of folks serving on a blue-ribbon committee. If you say that the SBC has spoken on this matter, let me remind you that only about 10,000 messengers voted to adopt the BF&M 2000 out of a supposed membership of 16 million.
So little of the spirit of Christ in the move to 'disfellowship' Julie' church.
Much rather hear of her 'detractors' packing up a few of their belongings and traveling to help her with her work.
Now THAT would be Christian indeed.
But no sees that.
They can't see it.
When all the rules are followed, and all the ones who didn't measure up have been 'kicked out' which is a legal term for being disfellowshipped, and all the 'right' people are happy, I wonder, will there be an ounce of charity towards others remaining to be had?
Or maybe it never was there to begin with?
If you are intent on considering 'disfellowship', remember:
You don't disfellowship just because you can;
you disfellowship when you have no other choice.
There is a big difference there.
Gary Snowden,
All I can say is I have learned a great deal the last three years.
Ignorance may be bliss, but it is definitely not helpful to others.
The body of Christ:
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,
23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,
24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,
25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
(1 Corinthians 12)
GBC and SBC are becoming increasingly IRRELEVANT in the life of local Baptist Churches.
The GBC thinks 'disfellowshipping' the Decatur church will cut the Holy Spirit off from here like turning off a spigot.
Nope. Decatur Baptist Church would continue to do just fine without them.
IRRELEVANCY will bring down the mighty club-wielding 'bosses' of SBC and GBC.
Are Women Human ???
'The many women who financed the life and ministry of Jesus, says Dorothy L. Sayers, "had never known a man like Jesus—there never has been such another. A prophet and teacher who never nagged at them, never flattered or coaxed or patronised; who never made arch jokes about them, never treated them either as 'The women, God help us!' or 'The ladies, God bless them!'; who rebuked without querulousness and praised without condescension; who took their questions and arguments seriously; who never mapped out their sphere for them, never urged them to be feminine or jeered at them for being female; who had no axe to grind and no uneasy male dignity to defend; who took them as he found them and was completely unselfconscious. There is no act, no sermon, no parable in the whole Gospel that borrows its pungency from female perversity; nobody could possibly guess from the words and deeds of Jesus that there was anything 'funny' about women's nature."
I've tinkered with Sayers' description of how Jesus treated women by substituting other common categories of today's identity politics. The permutations are almost endless. Jesus never nagged Republicans or flattered Democrats. He didn't patronise illegal aliens or have an axe to grind with natural born citizens. He never joked about gays or jeered at straight people, but took their arguments and questions seriously. He had no axe to grind with the poor and didn't manipulate the rich. He never used any of these people as negative examples, but instead accepted them just as he found them.
Watchinghistory,
I just wanted to make sure that you didn't believe that when the Philippian jailor asked the Apostle Paul what he must do to be saved that he wasn't so dead that he could not comprehend the Apostle's answer. If he could comprehend Paul's answer, the lost of today can understand the Gospel message preached by the evangelist and the missionary, too.
Some Sovereign Grace folks believe that sharing the gospel with lost people is like standing before rows of tomb stones preaching to the dead ones in the graves; they seem to believe that a lost person can no more hear the preacher and understand his words than those dead bodies laying in the graves.
I, too, believe in the five points of grace, but sometimes I find myself having a hard time believing in some things that Calvin deduced from his belief in election and predestination.
I wasn't trying to offend you as much as I was trying to get your goat, at least just a little. If I offended you, I was wrong.
Phil.
Louis,
You said "So, she speaks a Day 1 conferences, the New Covenant Baptist group, an American Baptist Seminary etc."
I believe that would be "the New Baptist Covenant group"
Big difference.
Of course, we all make our mistakes:)
My friends. You seem to forget that the SBC is a business. You have bureaucrats/administrators running the show. They believe they are taxed with making sure everyone follows the rules. They confirm rules and write new rules annually at the convention. And, they choose which rules they deem "in order" and which they will send to committee or table. Big, big business the SBC.
Reading down through these comments I wonder if we are living, talking according to the dictates of the flesh (Romans 8:5-13) or are we walking/talking in the spirit?
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Gal 4:5 To purchase the freedom of (to ransom, to redeem, to atone for) those who were subject to the Law, that we might be adopted and have sonship conferred upon us [and be recognized as God's sons].
Gal 4:6 And because you [really] are [His] sons, God has sent the [Holy] Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba (Father)! Father!
Gal 4:7 Therefore, you are no longer a slave (bond servant) but a son; and if a son, then [it follows that you are] an heir by the aid of God, through Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
When you men look at a woman in church, what do you see? Do you see a woman or do you see a new creation, in God's own image?
Eph 4:24 And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness.
Is she clothed in the same robe you profess to wear? Is she a new creation as you profess to be?
Eph 4:24
put: Eph_6:11; Job_29:14; Isa_52:1, Isa_59:17; Rom_13:12, Rom_13:14; 1Co_15:53; Gal_3:27; Col_3:10-14
new: Eph_2:15; Rom_6:4; 2Co_4:16, 2Co_5:17; 1Pe_2:2
after: Gen_1:26-27; 2Co_3:18; Col_3:10; 1Jo_3:2
created: Eph_2:10; Gal_6:15
righteousness: Psa_45:6-7; Rom_8:29; Tit_2:14; Heb_1:8, Heb_12:14; 1Jo_3:3
true holiness: or, holiness of truth, Joh_17:17
Some of you guys like to go back to Genesis 3 and claim rule and authority over women. Yet you neglect the fact that as sons of God, we ALL have been reconciled to God through the blood shed by Christ on the cross.
Peter warns us about the complexity of Paul's teachings. You can hang your hat on "suffer a woman to teach" all you want. But that doesn't negate all the rest of his teaching nor that of the other apostles and even Christ himself.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus in the process of being dissolved, what kind of person ought [each of] you to be [in the meanwhile] in consecrated and holy behavior and devout and godly qualities,
2Pe 3:12 While you wait and earnestly long for (expect and hasten) the coming of the day of God by reason of which the flaming heavens will be dissolved, and the [material] elements [of the universe] will flare and melt with fire? [Isa. 34:4.]
2Pe 3:13 But we look for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise, in which righteousness (uprightness, freedom from sin, and right standing with God) is to abide. [Isa. 65:17; 66:22.]
2Pe 3:14 So, beloved, since you are expecting these things, be eager to be found by Him [at His coming] without spot or blemish and at peace [in serene confidence, free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts].
2Pe 3:15 And consider that the long-suffering of our Lord [His slowness in avenging wrongs and judging the world] is salvation (that which is conducive to the soul's safety), even as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the spiritual insight given him,
2Pe 3:16 Speaking of this as he does in all of his letters. There are some things in those [epistles of Paul] that are difficult to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist and misconstrue to their own utter destruction, just as [they distort and misinterpret] the rest of the Scriptures.
2Pe 3:17 Let me warn you therefore, beloved, that knowing these things beforehand, you should be on your guard, lest you be carried away by the error of lawless and wicked [persons and] fall from your own [present] firm condition [your own steadfastness of mind].
2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace (undeserved favor, spiritual strength) and recognition and knowledge and understanding of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (the Messiah). To Him [be] glory (honor, majesty, and splendor) both now and to the day of eternity. Amen (so be it)!
Some of you guys are claiming to be consistent with scripture. It would be nice if you were consistent with all of it....
OBHG
The Philippian jailer was regenerated in the same manner the folks in Acts 2:37 were.
They hear with their physical ears like I hear most theologians on this post but I have no clue what they are saying. God gives the hearing in regeneration. All who hear from God are eternally secure. They can't refuse the gift of life! That gift is so generous that the jailor's household (men women children servants) were made alive. That exceeds Arminian personal evangelism.
But rather than say "some" sovereign grace people name me specifics for example, who?
I don't recognize more or less five point. You are either five point or you are not.
Benji:
Thanks. Frankly, I have not been that careful with the name of that new meeting, group etc. I will have to repeat that several times in my mind to get it right.
Louis
Wade:
Thanks for the reply.
Aside from whether it is a good or wise thing for GBC to do what they have done, the act of drawing lines for denominational participation is normal and appropriate and not unchristian per se.
The Catholics and the Presbyterians would not let me participate in their groups, but I know that they would not mean that I was not a Christian.
Every group has to draw its boundaries.
I, personally, would not have voted to do what the GBC did, in light of the very content I had posted. By her own words and the words of those in her church, this church had a relationship to the SBC and the GBC by the "slenderest of threads."
I would simply let that play out in its own time.
But either way, I do not believe it is an unchristian act for a denomination to organize itself and its mission with like minded churches. For Georgia Baptists that means no women senior pastors.
I think that we have said all that can be said about this one.
I will move on to the new post.
Louis
Louis,
It's not unChristian to organize but it may be VERY unChristian if a lot of people are badly harmed in the process.
The ETHICS are just not-there for your CR takeover heroes.
I think the previous poster is trying to indicate the "s" in the word "×•×™×•× ×™×¡" from a Hebrew version of Romans 16:7. (The previous post is Romans 16:7 in Hebrew.)
If that 's' is accurate, then it would lend weight to the thought that the Junia in that verse is male. I'm not sure what the source is of a Hebrew version of the New Testament, but the Syriac NT translations that I found online universally dropped the S.
I am not a bright enough scholar to comment on whether the original letter to the Romans was written in Hebrew or Greek. But using a translation--especially a transliteration--would be helpful if other, similar transliterations agree. From what I can tell, the Syriac Bible does not retain the s, however, and it wouldn't surprise me that its earlier historical "genesis" could be treated as more reliable than this Hebrew translation.
Greg Harvey
Only By His Grace
"I find myself having a hard time believing in some things that Calvin deduced from his belief in election and predestination."
What are some of the things that Calvin deduced...?
The strawman arguments take a toll on reason and truth. I have never read anything that Calvin wrote except when someone paste his words on the net. And then I don't know for certain those are his words.
The idea that Calvin or Luther for that matter believed that God predestinates sinners to hell should be proved. I personally don't think so.
They were informed men and would have understood the councils of Orange and Trent and would have known that scholars had throughly studied the Pelagian views and one of their conclusions was that God predestinates no one to hell. This would have been foundational to their understanding of Church doctrine.
Scholars ironed this out in the councils and the Catholic Church never applied the conclusions in practice. (This seems to be true of all Church structures)
The charge that Calvinist believe that God predestinates men to hell is IMO baseless. It is a deception for John Rice and Adrian Rogers to say so.
Now I am sure there are Calvinist who do go to this extreme, I don't know any. They are the exception and not the rule.
Wow!
Unfortunately, I didn't see this on the day it was posted. So, I'll chime on it now. You have just outlined and hit the nail on the head as to why so many of us as missionaries would not sign the 2000 BF&M. Not only were we required to sign it in affirmation, making a separate list of concerns to submit, but we were to sign stating that we would adhere to the 2000 BF&M in our teaching and implementation.
We could not and would not do this for one: We had some of the same concerns as you, and two: We saw this as a litmus test that would lead to much bigger and "better" things, such as eventually requiring to churches to do just what you have suggested. We simply would not be part of this precedent.
What is a BFM? The definition is quite an omission for such a long article. I'm too tired to read any more to maybe...find out....
Post a Comment