As I watched the Inauguration Day proceedings on television yesterday, my mind was flooded with thoughts about history, race and our future as a nation. I did some quick searches on the Internet to see what others were saying about Inauguration and came across one particular blog that succinctly said what I was feeling. Dr. Mike Kear (pronounced Kerr), writes eloquently at The Moderate Calvinist. Mike is a new member of Emmanuel Baptist Church in Enid, Oklahoma, a biblical scholar and a soon to be Sunday School teacher at our church. Regardless of one's politics, one cannot help but understand that something significant has happened in our nation yesterday, but it would not have happened were it not for people like Dr. Mike Kear's father, to whom Mike gives tribute in yesterday's post when he writes:In 1968 my father took his white family to an African-American church to worship together with our brothers and sisters in Christ. It was only a few days after Martin Luther King's assassination. As an 8 year-old kid, I didn't think anything about it. We repeated these visits throughout 1968 and beyond. In 1973, Ms. Minnie King brought her African-American family to our white church. And she stayed. Little did I know back then what a revolutionary man my father was, or what an amazing woman Minnie King was. In the midst of turbulent times, they chose to do something awesome: worship Jesus Christ with their blood-bought brothers and sisters without regard to the color of a person's skin.
I am thankful for a nation where people are now being judged on things other than the color of their skin. I am also grateful for men like Mike's father. A man who, in a time when it was unpopular to do so, took a stand for the oppressed. I also wonder who in the body of Christ today will take a stand to correct injustices in our churches and our world. It may be unpopular today, but the next generation will benefit.
In His Grace,
Wade
185 comments:
from Dr. Lowery's Benediction
"God of our weary years,
God of our silent tears,
thou, who has brought us thus far along the way,
thou, who has by thy might
led us into the light,
keep us forever in the path
we pray, lest our feet stray
from the places, our God,
where we met thee,
lest our hearts drunk with the wine of the world,
we forget thee.
Shadowed beneath thy hand,
may we forever stand true to thee, oh God,
and true to our native land.
from Inaugural Poem
by Elizabeth Alexander
"Say it plain,
that many have died for this day. Sing the names of the dead
who brought us here,
who laid the train tracks,
raised the bridges,
picked the cotton and the lettuce, built brick by brick
the glittering edifices
they would then keep clean
and work inside of.
Praise song for struggle;
praise song for the day.
Praise song for every
hand-lettered sign;
The figuring it out at kitchen tables.
Some live by "Love thy neighbor as thy self."
Others by first do no harm, or take no more than you need.
What if the mightiest word
is love,
love beyond marital, filial, national.
Love that casts
a widening pool of light.
Love with no need
to preempt grievance.
In today's sharp sparkle,
this winter air,
anything can be made,
any sentence begun.
On the brink,
on the brim,
on the cusp -- praise song for walking forward in that light."
What a wonderful legacy. Although I am a reader of Dr. Kear's blog, I have yet to meet him and his family, but I plan to. You or Rachelle will have to point him out to me. What a great addition to our church family.
My comments will be long but I need to tell all the parts of my experience with the church and race relations..
I will never forget attending a local Bible school. I was in a class on prayer where the teacher was talking about how we cannot pray effectively if we have dirty laundry in our lives. She was talking about praying for the USA. She had two classes dealing with difficult topics in our history. The first class (I missed this one) was dealing with how the Native Americans were treated. The second class dealt with how blacks were treated. My white teacher gave her testimony about how her family grew up in FL. Her mother raised her and her brother to treat all people with respect. This was during the days of the separate drinking fountains, lodging, riding the back of the bus, etc. Her mom said that she could not do anything about the schools but she decided to attend an all black Presbyterian church. At some point there was a riot and they had closed off the black part of town where they were not allowing anyone in or out. Her mom wanted to take her kids to church. She went off long enough that they let her into town to attend church.
While she is giving her testimony she mentions an event to commemorate the anniversary of the Tulsa race riots in 1921. They were going to have a prayer and repentance service. I think it was the 75th or 76th anniversary. This may sound silly to those reading here but I had heard of rednecks. However this was the first time I saw them in the flesh. As my teacher was teaching about how there needed to be repentance by whites for their current attitudes towards blacks I literally saw the necks of whites turn red because they had gotten so angry. About 20% of my class walked out in a huff while she was teaching. I was sitting in the back of the class because of getting there late. At the end of the class she had an altar call for those that the Lord was dealing with their hearts. She asked if there were any blacks that wanted to come forward to represent the race. I thought 'Why not?' When I got to the stage, along with others, to my horror I saw the faces of my classmates that I had attended classes with at that time for months. I saw some of the most hateful looks I had ever seen. I broke down and cried. I could not help it. I just could not believe that she was looking at this for 45-50 minutes. Many of them came forward. Some Africans in the class mentioned the fact that Africans sold their countrymen to whites for the slave trade. The whites that came forward for prayer with me stated that they were repenting for not confronting racist friends and relatives. They film the classes so that night I decided to bring a couple of my black friends to view the video of the class. Some students there were confronted with their issues against blacks and repented. This part of the experience was enough I thought. I was wrong.
One of my friends that came with me to the class decided to go to Jazzercize one day. She happened to see my teacher at that session. My friend talked with the teacher for a while. When I heard about this I decided to talk to the teacher after the next class. What she told me horrified me. She told me that she had talked with her husband about doing the class because she knew that she would hit a nerve. This may sound naive but that statement rocked me to my core. What did she mean 'she knew she would hit a nerve'? I was absolutely shocked. She and her husband have a separate missions ministry to the 10/40 window. She told me that after that class their ministry phone line got numerous calls from the students railing her for saying anything about this. Two of the responses were 'How dare you speak about something like this in a class about prayer?' and 'You know the Tulsa race riots never hapened'. I was absolutely stunned and horrified at this. Her husband was incensed about it as you could imagine.
The church I was attending at the time was a white church (maybe 10% blacks). The pastors were not racists at all and were willing to speak out against it. They knew the teacher of the class and were horrified at how she was treated and what I had experienced. During this time one of my friends had gone to a Burger King restaurant. Some fool made up a federal n****r hunting license and printed copies in the men's bathroom. He grabbed it and I looked at it. I decided to print it off and showed it to the pastor. He was shocked. I though that would be the end of it. Weeks after I forgot I gave this to him he decided to speak against racism. He decides to read the license during the service and mentioned to the congregation at both services that I had given this to him. One of my white friends mentioned the service and said that she did not need to hear it because she knew there was racism in some people. I asked her, 'How do you think my friend felt reading that in the men's bathroom?'
These are two incidents that happened in my life within I guess a couple of months of each other. I have lived a while, probably close to Pastor Wade's age. In my entire life the only incidents that I have had with blatant prejudice has been with followers of Christ. I will say that the two churches that I have been a part of that were 'white' churches did not have any problems dealing with this issue. I do not wear my race on my sleeve. My first identity is Christian. It sincerely is. However I do feel it is a crying shame that the one place I have seen this is with other Christians. The horrible thing was not just I saw this when I attended Bible school. What really horrified me was that in May of that year some of those people got their papers stating that they were ready for ministry.
Too many church leaders of every hue and denomination refuse to take stands because they are afraid of losing their cash. Until the love of money is rooted out it will be a rare preacher that will take these type of stands. Also the fear of man will cause this to continue to be a problem. This has been going on for decades and you still have problems in the church with this type of madness. The incidents I mentioned happened sometime in 1997 or 1998. At least there have been some ministers like Oral Roberts and Billy Graham that refused to have separate sections for the races in their crusades, Maybe there are others that are not trying to preserve their lives that will take this stand. Whites have too much to lose to do it. Many will not sad to say. Many blacks have tried but were rebuffed and have stopped trying.
Wade, thank you for all you do and have done. Thank you for living above reproach and striving to deal with conflict and disagreement lovingly, graciously and Biblically. You are a man of your word and much appreciated by many.
Scott
Arkansas
Rick Warren’s Inaugural Prayer
“Hear oh Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One; and You are the compassionate and merciful One.”
“Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be Thy name, Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen.”
Some thoughts on Obama
from Justin Taylors blog.
Eric C. Redmond is the author of Where Are All the Brothers? Straight Answers to Men's Questions About the Church (Crossway, 2008). He most recently served as the 2007-2008 Second Vice-President of the Southern Baptist Convention. He has previously posted other thoughts on the election at his blog, A Man from Issachar. He and his wife, Pamela, are adoptive parents who have five children in their home and two children in heaven.
Let us then continue to honor the good appointment of God, which may be easily done, provided we impute to ourselves whatever evil may accompany it. Hence he teaches us here the end for which magistrates are instituted by the Lord; the happy effects of which would always appear, were not so noble and salutary an institution marred through our fault. At the same time, princes do never so far abuse their power, by harassing the good and innocent, that they do not retain in their tyranny some kind of just government: there can then be no tyranny which does not in some respects assist in consolidating the society of men.
John Calvin, commentary on Romans 13:3.
A Note of Thanks
First, allow me to express my thanks to Justin for inviting me to contribute to his blog on the day after what might go down in history as the most significant Presidential election in the United States in our lifetime. I have found Justin to be a kind and discerning brother, for whom I give many thanks. I also am grateful for his passion for demonstrating the mercy of Christ to the unborn and the orphan—a passion we share in experience.
My Post-Obama-Election Dilemma
I am not and never have been a fan of John McCain, his proposed policies, his inconsistent record on many issues, his poor choice for a running mate, his thoughtless economic plan, or of his very negative campaigning against Barak Obama. It was hard for me to bear the thought of voting for him. It was equally hard for me to bear the thought of siding with a campaign for "change" that would passively allow each state to choose whether it would change the definition and legal institution of marriage, and that would not actively seek to change (read "work for the overturning of") Roe. v. Wade. For me, neither candidate represented change or progress for the country, except on the issue of the country's readiness to be led by a candidate of color.
How I wish that the first time there was a probable opportunity for an African American candidate to reach the White House I could have cast my vote for such a candidate without any reservation. However, I am pro-life, and President-Elect Obama is the most anti-life senator to come to power in my lifetime. I also am pro-conservative justices (who limit legislating from the bench). I am pro-marriage— that is, pro-heterosexual marriage. In the end, I could not overlook these issues as I approached Election Day. But the temptation to justify voting for Obama was strong, for I did not want to be against the side of history—of an African American finally making it to the Oval Office.
However, if I have not learned anything else from the recent happenings at my (soon to be former) church, it is these two things: First, it is not virtuous to side with the majority because one does not wish to stand out among friends, or because one is unwilling to examine all information on an issue, or because one wants to dispense dislikes toward current leadership, in spite of righteous reasons to vote against the majority—in fact, under some circumstances, it can be a horrendous evil. Second, even if one is seeking to be consistent in humility and holiness individually, to abstain from voting on any matter is to allow the majority to speak for you. That same majority, with a victory, might make trouble for the greater populous by means of the evil(s) of which you sought to distance yourself by abstaining from voting.
So I made two very difficult choices: First, I chose to vote rather than stay home. Second, I voted for lives of the unborn rather than for approval from the vast majority of my own ethnic community. The latter choice took the risk of being reproached for the name of Christ, for I only voted for life because of the fear of my Lord (cf. Ex. 1:15-2:12). I know such a choice risks invoking the ire or dismissal of the overwhelming majority of the African American community. Yet, on a most historic Election Day, I could not allow my personal pro-life stance to crumble under the weight of being perceived as a traitor to the African American cause for victory, for that goes against all godly wisdom:
If you faint in the day of adversity,
your strength is small.
Rescue those who are being taken away to death;
hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter.
If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,”
does not he who weighs the heart perceive it?
Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it,
and will he not repay man according to his work?
Prov. 24:10-12, ESVESV
I cast my vote in the hopes of rescuing those being taken to the slaughter. I could not vote in such a way that I would have ignored the blood flowing from fertility clinics, for I know that the Almighty would repay my cowardice. My hope in his word is that he will remember me and graciously and provide for my life, repaying me with mercy.
In contrast, I do not think a recession can be said to be taking people to death unjustly, especially when many in Maryland voted to throw their lots in with bringing slots to my state; (the correlation of the recession to the slots-vote should be obvious to the righteous). I think our soldiers voluntarily sign up to defend our freedom at the risk of their own lives. Lack of health insurance coverage for all makes life very hard for many, but it does not lead to a denial of all medical care for any one class of people. (N.B. I have two members in my home with medical pre-conditions, and I am about to begin paying health insurance out of pocket because we cannot afford a break in coverage when my current job ends. I understand the value of health insurance and the stress of keeping up with the rising costs of such coverage.) So the economy, the war in Iraq, and universal health insurance became secondary issues for me—albeit very important ones —because righteousness was not at stake. Even so, the righteous should not now overlook these issues while loving their fellow man.
My Duty to Christ and the King
The question for me at this time is this: Can I continue to live Soli Deo Gloria under a President whose moral judgment already is questionable before he takes the oath of office? Yes I can, for I can be obedient to Scripture, praying for the one in authority (I Tim. 2:1-8), honoring the one in authority (1 Pet. 2:13-18), submitting to the one in authority (Rom. 13:1-7; Tit. 3:1), and seeking righteousness for the entire citizenry (Prov. 14:34). These I will seek to do by grace. I will "honor the good appointment of God."
Moreover, I can follow the admonition and example of Calvin, who, in the quote above, preached that believers should impute to themselves the ills of government and recognize the common grace given to mankind through human governing authorities. For example, in our day, it is not the governmental regulation that slaughters the innocent; it is the people who chose to end the lives of their children, and the willing executioners who kill for the sake of the monetary gain afforded by the abortion industry. The government only allows this sin to receive legal permission and protection. Nevertheless, that same government provides many laws that allow me to worship in freedom, preach the Gospel freely, vote in an election, and write blog posts like this one without fear of censorship or death. I readily can recognize the retention of "some kind of just government" under President Obama's rule.
My Dilemma Resolved
My humble proposal of an attempt to be Christocentric rather than Afrocentric will not be received with approval by many African Americans that I know. I hope to live long enough to witness another African American become a candidate for President of the United States of America—a candidate who is pro-life and pro-righteousness. Yet my hope may ring hollow to many other African Americans who are celebrating a Democratic victory that happens to seem pro-African American. To the celebrants, I might be labeled as sore loser seeking to justify his reasons for siding with conservative white America rather than with Black America.
In writing elsewhere about "how I have wrestled through the Christian version of the Uncle Tom epithet" (with respect to my embracing of Reformed Theology), I have penned this thought:
If a person would allow himself to be pigeonholed into becoming a person of a nationalistic or ethno-centric thought out of the fear of being viewed as an Oreo or Uncle Tom, then Reformed Theology is not for that person. But neither is the Gospel, for the Gospel calls each of us to stand against an ethnic-centered philosophy of one's own race, for such a philosophy is naturally conformed to this present world and is in need of redemption. If you cannot stand against your own culture where it does not square with the Scriptures, you are the one who is ashamed of Christ, and such shame has nothing to with philosophical or ontological Blackness; it only has to do with your view of the majesty of the God who calls you to deny yourself in order to follow Christ. ("Sovereign in a Sweet Home, Schooling, and Solace," in Glory Road: Our Journey Into Reformed Christianity, ed. Anthony Carter [Wheaton, IL: Crossway, Wheaton, forthcoming])
I am fairly certain that if J. C. Watts had been the Republican nominee for President, and if he had been running against Hillary Clinton as the Democratic nominee, the great majority of African Americans would have found reason to vote for the wife of the "first Black President" and her liberal ideals rather than for Watts and his conservative ideals. In doing so, such a vote would indicate that the great majority of African Americans have feelings about the type of African American who would be deemed worthy their votes for the seat at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue—who would be worthy of African Americans' approval as their choice for their representative in the White House. Seemingly, for the Black Nationalist and the liberal, not every African American would qualify to wear an honor for which our ancestors were stolen, enslaved, whipped, lynched, dehumanized, and killed. Likewise, it is my opinion that my ancestors experienced such suffering and injustices so that it would be possible for any African American to reach the Oval Office, but not so that every African American, regardless of qualifications, could reach the Oval Office. Those who fought for civil rights for African Americans were doing so out of a moral impetus to see African Americans treated humanely—as human beings rather than like chattel or as 3/5ths-human. I think the best way to honor their work and lives when the office of Commander in Chief is within reach would be to continue that moral quest. That quest is continued by finding a candidate who seeks to see African Americans, even those in the womb, treated humanely—as people rather than as cattle for our labor and experimentation or as a 3/5th-human fetus.
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/11/eric-redmond-living-soli-deo-gloria.html
Pamela,
Thank you for sharing your stories. They are tragic.
I hope that today was as big a step forward as we would like to believe. I fear that for many it is not.
Yet all we can do is continue to do as your teacher requested: repent for the times where we harbor fear or hatred based or race and pray for those who do not recognize a God who has united Jew and Gentile as firmly as he has White and Black.
I pray also that those of us who read your words and who are also ministers(or in training to be so) will have the courage your pastor had to speak out against this terrible injustice which is too often perpetrated in the name of God.
Thank you, and God bless.
nice little story. his dad taught him that was "safe" at 11am on sunday morning every now and then 40 years ago. what are we ALL going to do today (regardless of how we have been socialized) the other 167 hours of each week??
to me, this dialogue is much more important than politics or theology and probably more touchy too. we can all "vote" for change but that is not what produces real change spiritually, relationally, or racially.
I like Obama and I am proud of him and this step in our nations history.
But his unbiblical stance on every single moral issue should make every reader of this blog ill.
I missed Warren's prayer. Did he really just say the Lord's Prayer?
If so. What a wasted opportunity in my view.
But frankly, it was expected.
SL1M
When a Believer is intentionally focused on meeting ALL people's needs--rather than their own--the issue of race is not really an issue. And yes, it is that simple.
Can't let Eric's post pass without comment. The only reason I voted for McCain was BECAUSE OF Sarah Palin. If not for her I would have stayed home election day. I hope history is made again in 4 years when we elect her our next President.
SL1M, check out the link that Thy Peace posted. It is a link to the YouTube video and transcript of Rick Warren's prayer. It is little more than Thy Peace quoted.
I totally disagree that because of Obama's election that we all of a sudden are judging people by their character. Too many that voted for Obama, blacks and whites alike, were voting against 'the failed policies of the Bush administration' as Obama and others supporters repeated over and over again. A dog could have run against McCain and won. All they had to do was repeat the mantra of 'the failed policies of the Bush administration'. Remember only 52-53% of the voters voted for Obama, pretty much the same ratio that voted for Pres. Bush in 2004 from what I remember.
Nothing will change the heart of a person but the gospel of Christ. Prejudice is an issue of the heart. You have pride and maybe fear that provoke this. This is why I was so horrified that I saw this with Christians. I guarantee you that the first time that Obama messes up something (all presidents make at least one major mistake in four years), there will be some whites from both major political parties that will say that he failed because blacks are just not as qualified as whites. If a white person had done the same thing the argument would be that they disagreed with what they did.
Until white Christian leaders deal with this more in their pulpits, at the risk of losing their money and friends, nothing will change really in our country. This is a reason why a good number of blacks have embraced the teachings of the Nation of Islam, Black Liberation Theology or other faiths. Some blacks feel that if Christians cannot see people as equal then it is not a legitimate faith. They fail to see that the Bible is the standard, not the prejudice Christians they have been with. However people should be able to look at us and see Christ. The Bible says that they will know we are Christians by our love. The church should be setting the standard. In many cases we are the main problem when it comes to this.
SL1M,
No, Rick Warren didn't just say "the Lord's Prayer". He ended his own prayer with it.
Which I've heard many pastors do, themselves.
"We come in the age's most uncertain hours and sing an American tune "
quote from Simon & Garfunkel's lyrics
ANON said, 'we can all "vote" for change but that is not what produces real change spiritually, relationally, or racially.'
YOU GOT IT BACKWARDS, ANON.
First our country CHANGED spiritually, relationally, and racially, and THEN we were able to vote for change.
'the road we are traveling on ' is a long one. the ancestors began on that road, and our children's children will see it through
This country has come far along the road and there are still many miles ahead.
We must heal now from the wounds we inflicted on our own honor when we practiced torture on captives.
We must heal from the divisions fostered by the 'narrow interests'.
Long way to go.
Thank God for American Resolve.
Some points to make here. First, to say that Obama's election was because of character and not race is still an undecided issue. A quick glance at blogs and news sources from the African-American community will show that they, as a group, voted overwhelmingly based on skin.
As for the implication that white Christians are the main problem, I heartily disagree. True, there are many bigots still in "white" churches, but my experience has shown me that the percentage is much higher in "black" churches.
For the past 5 years I've pastored a church in Tillman county, a farming community. We tried for two years to celebrate race relations Sunday. We reached out to pastors at the "black" churches, advertised in the paper, on the radio, the local cable station, and saturated town with flyers. The result: over 120 people came; 30 of those people were African-American; 27 of the African-Americans were from the guest church we invited to lead worship; the other three were from a neighboring town. The next year, we had a Hispanic church lead (this is race relations Sunday, not just Black/White relations was our thought). We had great turnout from the Hispanic and Euro-American populations. The African-Americans did not show.
When I spoke to people afterward, the general feeling was "You didn't mean it." "You didn't let us get involved" (despite numerous requests for involvement). "Nothing will change."
At some point the African-American community needs to stop dwelling in the past (ie, their great-great-great grandfather's slavery) and start accepting the hands of friendship being offered. My hand is still out, but it gets hard to hold it out when I hear people who have the same standard of living as I do chastise me for events that I had no part of.
This country can not move forward in race issues until it stops trying to blame and starts trying to love.
Amen. (To Pamela's Comments)
Wade,
Thank you for posting this. It honors my earthly father (who went to heaven in 2002) and our Heavenly Father as well.
Pamela said, "Nothing will change the heart of a person but the gospel of Christ." That is so true. It is often easier to stay within the boundaries of of our cultural and familial histories, but there is something about the Gospel of Jesus Christ that draws us toward the heart of God. And the heart of God is a place where it is much more difficult to promote division or to continue in the status quo of how it's always been.
I did not watch the inauguration. I have never watched one live. I have always been working.
Every inauguration should be a celebration. This was. But the praise was way over the top, in my opinion. The uniqueness of Obama's election should definitely be mentioned and considered, but not set up as a totem, which is what happened.
But, it came and went, like most inaugurations. And this one had more goof ups, from what I have seen and heard, that it actually was described as weird and funny.
Obama and Justice Roberts need to re-do the oath. One friend said to me, I hope that we have a piece of paper, because the oath was so bungled, I am not sure he's President.
Arehta Franklin is a professional singer, and should know better how to sing the word "country" in My Country Tis of Thee..." so it doesn't sound bad.
Joseph Lowery made a fool of himself and made a mockery of the sacred exercise of prayer.
Rick Warren's prayer was heartfelt. More importantly, it really put Lowery's in perspective.
Obama's speech was terrible.
The Dow had it's biggest drop ever on an inauguration day.
Rob, thanks for the thoughts.
We all hope and pray that our country does well in the days ahead. I am anxious to see if Obama has real leadership skills or whether his age and inexperience will catch up with him.
I do not expect to be disappointed by Obama. I think I know what we are getting - a young, if inspirational, politician who is more pragmatic than most people believe. I don't agree with some of his policies, but will agree with others.
I suspect, however, that the progressives in this country are going to be the most disappointed people. They are going to find out, as conservatives have in a previous generation, that this country is a big and complex thing to govern. It's not a straight line from rhetoric to policy. Also, one's champion may not be as consistent as advertised.
Louis
Having our first African American president is indeed historic. Unfortunately, he is the one of the most liberal politicians in the land. We all know that. Maybe our opposition to his policies will be seen for just what it is - political dissent and not racism. Too often liberals have accused conservatives of being racist for opposing affirmative action. Maybe the dialogue will be different. Maybe Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been marginalized to the point of irrelevancy. I hope so. Most of all as Christians, we should be the model for behavior towards those of other ethnicities.
This quote from Obama's speech reminded me of the SBC:
"To those who cling to power through corruption and deceit and the silencing of dissent, know that you are on the wrong side of history..."
I wonder if we are willing to practice the rest of this sentence though - or if we'll ever get a chance to:
"...but that we will extend a hand if you are willing to unclench your fist."
I boldly confront Christians, blacks and whites, that I have been around about this issue. However the rank and file generally do not affect change in groups. The leaders do. It is good that some do their best to reach out. However it would be nice for those that have a larger sphere of influence would. I am glad for those like Ish Engle and the two white pastors that I have had are pressing forward in this.
I also concur that some issues are because of perception. The race card is played when nothing happened. Some blacks would do well to try and determine the motivation of the heart when it comes to race relations. This is how I approach it. I try to be honest with whites without being condemning. Because I do not wear race on my sleeve, when I am being honest they know I am just making a point of discussion, not coming at anyone. I initially assume that they do not understand some perspectives that blacks have on issues. I have found that assumption to be true in many cases. It has opened the door for them to be open with me and I them. My context for this is the Bible. I make it the center of any discussion on race. I rarely if ever deal with the political side of race. The only time I may bring up a political issue is when an understand of the stance of blacks needs to be explained. I deal with issues of the heart.
This is a very frustrating issue as unfortunately Ish Elgle has experienced that have a sincere heart to reach out but have been rebuffed by blacks. For me I just keep at is the best I can not being a church leader. Again the rank and file generally do not affect change, especially in the church. The leadership needs to take action. I'm glad that pastors like Ish Engle and the two whites pastors that I have had do reach out. Maybe if they had a national platform it would help. At least in the two congregations I have been a part of it has.
I think we all need a learning curve:) I do feel that we need to try and read the hearts instead of actions. I totally agree with Ish Engle that the emphasis must be love. I know that is mine.
SL1M,
I am disappointed that you judge Rick Warren and make such remarks about him without ever listening to his prayer. Remember an estimated 5 billion people are listening to him pray.
Try reading a couple of his books and quit listening to others who comment about him. I say this to you and I am no fan of The Purpose Driven Church or Purpose Driven Life. It is for some and some churches. So far it is not for me or my church.
He is no Hindu, he is no New Ager. He preaches the true Gospel. Although he probably would not fit into my brand of Dispensationalism or my brand of Calvinism, he is a brother in Christ and I love him dearly for all that have heard the Gospel under his ministry.
If I lived across the street from his church, I most likely would not attend. I had much rather hear my sermons than his. I agree with every thing in them; that is, at least I did at the time I preached them.
Phil.
'THE SADDEST THING OF ALL . . '
I can identify with the words of
Dr. Kerr, who on his blog,
The Moderate Calvinist, wrote about the racist man with two young children in the back seat of his car.
I remember being shocked at the racism of some young students of mine and I wondered how they came upon such sttong feelings of hate at their young ages: until I met their parents. Then, I knew.
I remember going home and telling my family about the children who had been poisoned by hatred,
and, after listening intently, my son, in his great child's wisdom said simply,
"Mom, teach them."
'MOM, TEACH THEM. "
And so, I did. L's
Last year, on the Sunday before Martin Luther King, Jr. Day, I sang the hymn which contains the text which the very first poster (anonymous) quoted from Dr. Lowery's Benediction yesterday. It is a wonderful hymn, which some have tagged as the African-American National Anthem.
Alas, only the pianist and our few African-American members knew anything about the hymn. It ranks certainly as good, or better, than most of what we call 'patriotic' songs we allow in our hymnals.
Full text and a link to audio at:
http://tinyurl.com/55m7df
Gary Skaggs
Norman, OK
I thank Pamela for sharing her stories with us.
Pamela needed to tell them.
WE NEEDED TO HEAR THEM.
Some wish to push past the 'need' to try to understand what happened to people of color.
But that is not wise.
It is like the story of the Holocaust: lest we forget . . .
If we forget the past, we may be doomed to repeat.
So I would encourage Pamels and all who have stories to tell to share them:
in telling them to people who will listen and try to understand,
the person who lived through the suffering will be able to heal.
In listening and trying to understand, WE, who in our ignorance and insensitivity, may have contributed to some of their pain: WE can begin to heal our own humanity.
Tell the stories.
We need the telling
and we need the listening.
'Lest we forget. . . ' L's
Pamela, I commend your efforts. Let me also be clear that I have seen many African-Americans who are willing to reach across, too. My point was only that this is not just a Euro-American problem, which I hear you echoing.
To anonymous, I am not saying we should forget the past. As you point out, those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it. I'm suggesting we not dwell on the past. Art Shell, the first African-American head coach in the NFL set a great example. I have tremendous respect for him because he drove past the race issue. When asked how he felt to be the first African-American head coach, he replied, "I didn't get this position because I'm black, I got it because my hard work made me the best candidate for the job!" Any grief counselor will tell you, when you focus on past hurts, you cannot heal them. True, they must not be ignored, either.
And to Gary, thanks for the link!
I grew up in military communities (my Dad was in the Army). Until I finished college (I went to a military school), I never truly witnessed racism. My friends were a spectrum of ethnicity. We judged people by how they acted, not by anything else. To me, actions define a person, still, and skin-color is of no merit.
Ish Engle,
I believe you nailed it when you said, “At some point the African-American community needs to stop dwelling in the past…”
I grew up not understanding why there were ‘white’ and ‘colored’ water fountains, “we have the right to refuse service…”, and “N… don’t let the sun go down on your head in this town.”
I was shocked at my aunt’s anger in saying, “I had to stand on the bus because I wasn’t about to sit where the colored are suppose to sit!”
I’m 76, and as I look back, I see the results of past treatment of Blacks have influenced the present generation.
In general, whites are saying we’re sorry, and blacks are saying you owe us.
Those attitudes are coming close to reversing ‘wrong’ in the past to ‘wrong’ now.
In the government work place, I’ve seen many more qualified whites pasted over because of skin color.
Once our church worked two Saturdays to help build a black church at South Oak Cliff in Dallas.
They saw a man using a tree for protection as bullets were fired. I was warned to keep the building locked as I worked forty more nights mostly by myself.
The stealing stopped when a hired black was fired when I proved he took my skill saw.
While there, I had a discussion with an old black preacher about Mexican workers and why there was not one Black besides the preacher volunteering to help.
He said, “Oh, we need Mexicans to do the work. I can take you right now and show you fifty Blacks sucking on a bottle.”
Will a Black president inspire hands to work or to be held out for what’s ‘owed’ them?
We have people of different color in America?
When did that happen?
Lord, blind our eyes to the colors of man and lead us to see mankind as You see them.
Hi REX RAY,
it's me, L's
Yes, our white/black, self-described 'mutt' of a President will inspire hands to work.
I think that is only ONE effect he will bring to our country.
Think about the odds, REX.
Comes a man among us whose father tended goats in a small village in Kenya on the continent of Africa.
This man now leads the free world.
And commands the largest arsenal in history.
What are the odds?
There was an intervention that made this happen. And for a reason.
REX, if you are worried that our new President won't set an example for a black person having a work ethic, the times they are a-changin. What a role-model he is !
The old stereo-types are crumbling.
The son of an African goatherd
IS the new President of the United States of America:
I see the hand of the Lord in this.
And anyway, isn't it nice to have a man in office who was smart enough to be the President of the Harvard Law Review.
That position is not an 'honorary' one: it is a mark of high respect for abilities above and beyond the norm for Harvard Law School.
I come from two lines:
my mother, of blessed memory, descended from slave owners in Plymouth, North Carolina.
My father, who recently passed away, descended from those in Canada who were associated with the Underground Railroad in the areas along the border west of Montreal.
With MY blended heritage, I am in a position to see a wonderful reconciliation in what is happening.
And from this reconciliation among our citizens, those young black men who are so discouraged and lost, can look at Barack and say to themselves, 'maybe I ,too, have a chance for a better life'. L's
P.S. Rex, what is all this about 'black' churches and 'white' churches? I don't get the reason for it. Sorry.
PPS. I want MORE STORIES, please.
MORE, MORE, MORE . . . . . :)
Love, L's
It is easy to tell others 'not to dwell on the past' when it's not YOUR past.
Some things take time and patience to heal. And a great deal of understanding.
It is easy to tell others 'not to dwell on the past' when it's not YOUR past.
I agree. And for some, the past is the present. In other words, it's still happening. Hopefully that will change even more. It's 2009 for goodness sake.
Rex: I find your comment has a lot of holes in it. To save space, I'll let you think about it and figure out what those holes are.
The strength or weakness of our stands on race are influenced by our generation, but not always.
The only person in my mother's family who was color-blind was Grandmother. The rest of the family, well . . . :(
Grandmother just 'didn't get it' that you were 'supposed to
look down on others because you were 'white'.
During the Depression Era, Grandmother cooked for and fed ANYONE who came to her kitchen door for some food. She was a farmer's wife and had plenty to share.
She invited them in where they ate in the kitchen, and she sat with them and talked with them about Our Lord.
She just never 'understood' what all the racial fuss was about, and the family never was able to 'convert' her over to their way of thinking (or not thinking :).
So Grandmother is one of my heroes.
I wish she had been alive to see what is happening in our country now. She would smile. L's
Hi Phil,
I enjoy your comments for the most part. However, you said, "I am disappointed that you judge Rick Warren and make such remarks about him without ever listening to his prayer. Remember an estimated 5 billion people are listening to him pray."
For the record, here again is what I said:
"I missed Warren's prayer. Did he really just say the Lord's Prayer?
If so. What a wasted opportunity in my view.
But frankly, it was expected."
Notice here that I asked a question. "DID HE REALLY SAY..." Then note that I said, "IF SO..."
I am admitting I didn't hear his prayer and asking if he really did only say the Lord's Prayer. Someone else set the record straight that it was only the end of his prayer.
I will admit to judging Warren 4 years ago however when I read "the" book and completed a 15 page term paper on the nonsense surrounding Warren and the entire Willow Creek "seeker sensitive" movement.
I will listen to his prayer and see if he took advantage of praying within earshot of 5 billion people. But I am certain he took extra care so as to not offend anyone while at the same time offending the holy Creator of the universe.
But I digress.
Please note that my comment may sound harsh. This Calvinist has a very low view of man and a very high view of God. :)
Take care,
SL1M
The Christian understanding of man is the most elevated and dignifying view. It reflects the fact that God not only created us in his own image, but he became man in order to redeem us: For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham's descendants (Hebrews 2:16). The implication of seeing man in this way is that every person is to be treated with respect and courtesy. A man may be from the most deprived background, he may suffer the most debilitating and restricting disabilities, he may in his conduct be quite unacceptable to us, but made in God’s image he is to be treated as someone with dignity and significance.
Slim: Listen to the prayer. I think you will find yourself very wrong.
FOR SLIM: Pastor Warren's Prayer
Let us pray.
Almighty God, our father, everything we see and everything we can't see exists because of you alone. It all comes from you, it all belongs to you. It all exists for your glory. History is your story.
The Scripture tells us Hear, oh Israel, the Lord is our God; the Lord is one. And you are the compassionate and merciful one. And you are loving to everyone you have made.
Now today we rejoice not only in America's peaceful transfer of power for the 44th time. We celebrate a hinge-point of history with the inauguration of our first African-American president of the United States.
We are so grateful to live in this land, a land of unequaled possibility, where the son of an African immigrant can rise to the highest level of our leadership.
And we know today that Dr. King and a great cloud of witnesses are shouting in Heaven.
Give to our new president, Barack Obama, the wisdom to lead us with humility, the courage to lead us with integrity, the compassion to lead us with generosity. Bless and protect him, his family, Vice President Biden, the Cabinet, and every one of our freely elected leaders.
Help us, oh God, to remember that we are Americans, united not by race or religion or blood, but to our commitment to freedom and justice for all.
When we focus on ourselves, when we fight each other, when we forget you, forgive us. When we presume that our greatness and our prosperity is ours alone, forgive us. When we fail to treat our fellow human beings and all the Earth with the respect that they deserve, forgive us.
And as we face these difficult days ahead, may we have a new birth of clarity in our aims, responsibility in our actions, humility in our approaches, and civility in our attitudes, even when we differ.
Help us to share, to serve and to seek the common good of all.
May all people of good will today join together to work for a more just, a more healthy and a more prosperous nation and a peaceful planet. And may we never forget that one day all nations and all people will stand accountable before you.
We now commit our new president and his wife, Michelle, and his daughters, Malia and Sasha, into your loving care.
I humbly ask this in the name of the one who changed my life, Yeshua, Isa, Jesus, Jesus (hay-SOOS), who taught us to pray, Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever.
Amen.
*****
Text of Rev. Lowery's inauguration benediction
By The Associated Press
Text of the benediction by Rev. Joseph Lowery during President Barack Obama's inauguration, as transcribed by CQ Transcriptions:
God of our weary years, God of our silent tears, thou, who has brought us thus far along the way, thou, who has by thy might led us into the light, keep us forever in the path we pray, lest our feet stray from the places, our God, where we met thee, lest our hearts drunk with the wine of the world, we forget thee.
Shadowed beneath thy hand, may we forever stand true to thee, oh God, and true to our native land.
We truly give thanks for the glorious experience we've shared this day.
We pray now, oh Lord, for your blessing upon thy servant Barack Obama, the 44th president of these United States, his family and his administration.
He has come to this high office at a low moment in the national, and indeed the global, fiscal climate. But because we know you got the whole world in your hands, we pray for not only our nation, but for the community of nations.
Our faith does not shrink though pressed by the flood of mortal ills.
For we know that, Lord, you are able and you're willing to work through faithful leadership to restore stability, mend our brokenness, heal our wounds, and deliver us from the exploitation of the poor, of the least of these, and from favoritism toward the rich, the elite of these.
We thank you for the empowering of thy servant, our 44th president, to inspire our nation to believe that yes we can work together to achieve a more perfect union.
And while we have sown the seeds of greed - the wind of greed and corruption, and even as we reap the whirlwind of social and economic disruption, we seek forgiveness and we come in a spirit of unity and solidarity to commit our support to our president by our willingness to make sacrifices, to respect your creation, to turn to each other and not on each other.
And now, Lord, in the complex arena of human relations, help us to make choices on the side of love, not hate; on the side of inclusion, not exclusion; tolerance, not intolerance.
And as we leave this mountain top, help us to hold on to the spirit of fellowship and the oneness of our family. Let us take that power back to our homes, our workplaces, our churches, our temples, our mosques, or wherever we seek your will.
Bless President Barack, First Lady Michelle. Look over our little angelic Sasha and Malia.
We go now to walk together as children, pledging that we won't get weary in the difficult days ahead. We know you will not leave us alone.
With your hands of power and your heart of love, help us then, now, Lord, to work for that day when nations shall not lift up sword against nation, when tanks will be beaten into tractors, when every man and every woman shall sit under his or her own vine and fig tree and none shall be afraid, when justice will roll down like waters and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Lord, in the memory of all the saints who from their labors rest, and in the joy of a new beginning, we ask you to help us work for that day when black will not be asked to get in back, when brown can stick around ... when yellow will be mellow ... when the red man can get ahead, man; and when white will embrace what is right. That all those who do justice and love mercy say
Amen.
Nice prayer until he said "when white will embrace what is right." Perhaps he needs to open up his deluded eyes. I'm weary of this constant harping on the white man.
I do a public library storytime for children. Today we did a "black history and history in the making day." Very simple stories of "then" and "now" totally appropriate to the age level of the kids.
One mom took her child and left half way through.
Another used body language to signal boredom to her kids.
My director gently let me know afterwards that I may not be needed anymore.....only time will tell.
As long as saying "it once was very bad" and "things are better but not perfect now" relating to judging by race is that frowned upon, we must forge on.
From one red headed scots-irish to all my brothers and sisters in Christ: we must live love and let the world see it. And we must speak against hate.
Linda
I have always noticed that if a person who struggles with racial hatred finds himself/herself in a preschool setting where all races are represented among the children, those racial things start going away pretty quickly. Smiles don't recognize such differences.
ANON. said, "Nice prayer until he said "when white will embrace what is right." Perhaps he needs to open up his deluded eyes. I'm weary of this constant harping on the white man."
Well, he put it out on the table, didn't he, out in the open, in the light, in the fresh air ?
Now he feels better. And you can vent. This is good.
If you think about it, he is an old man. I bet he REMEMBERS another America: the sitting in the back of the bus, the 'black' school house with so little to offer the little ones, the intimidation at the voting poles, the police harassment (YES, IT HAPPENED), the 'colored only' substandard facilities, the list goes on ad infinitum and as nauseum.
That is what it is: the man
REMEMBERS. And the emotional scars are as fresh and painful as is it all happened yesterday.
So, he prays for an America that is different. It's a prayer, not a curse. If you feel insulted, just think what it might have been to walk in this minister's shoes all those years ago, and put your pride away.
He has earned his pulpit.
He has earned the right to say what he did.
And, finally, in this country, in this time, he can only be lynched on a Christian blog.
God is good.
LINDA, proud of you ! L's
Just because he "earned his pulpit" and can "say what he wants to say" doesn't mean I have to think its right, accurate, or the correct thing to say.
There are a lot more people who need to embrace what is right than just white people.
His veiled racism is offensive regardless of what was done to black, brown, or yellow people in the past.
I do not understand why it is necessary to anazlyze Rev. Warren's prayer when we were not the one having to deliver it. May we all realize if we were the ones delivering the prayer we would be the one now being criticized instead of him.
'His veiled racism is offensive regardless of what was done to black, brown, or yellow people in the past.' Anon.
So is yours.
I liked Warren's prayer. Not too bad considering all the eyes that had to approve it before hand.
On another note: "when white will embrace what is right."
Why did Lowery say that?
I agree. That is a form of veiled racism.
When white will embrace what is right? Please! America is mostly white and they voted for a black man for President!
Keeping the fire of racism going even on such a historic day.
It will never end, I suspect.
And that is a shame.
SL1M
Many of the schools in our city gave each child a book about Obama. Bakeries were selling special Obama cookies. For the first time in History little kids know the name of the President. He is more rock star than substance. I have never seen anything like the worship of a man in my life as this. They booed Laura Bush? What class!
One wonders just how close to the cliff folks will go in following this man. Of course, HE won't go off the cliff. He is set for life, now.
I think his treasury secretary nomination says it all. Some animals are more equal than others. I had to pay penalties when I filed late. He filed about 20 years late with NO penalties. May it be so for all the little folks, too. hmmm?
Lydia
Headlines On This Date 4 Years Ago:
“Republicans spending $42 million on inauguration while troops Die in unarmored Humvees”
“Bush extravagance exceeds any reason during tough economic times”
“Fat cats get their $42 million inauguration party, Ordinary Americans get the shaft”
Headlines Today:
“Historic Obama Inauguration will cost only $120 million”
“Obama Spends $120 million on inauguration; America Needs A Big Party”
“Everyman Obama shows America how to celebrate”
“Citibank executives contribute $8 million to Obama Inauguration”
Lydia
Of course, this prayer by Al Mohler was much better.
This is a prayer that Warren would never utter and could never utter because it would never have been approved.
"Our Father, Lord of all creation, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ: We pray today with a sense of special urgency and responsibility. We come before you to pray for our new President, Barack Obama, and for all those in this new administration who now assume roles of such high responsibility.
We know that you and you alone are sovereign; that you rule over all, and that you alone are able to keep and defend us. We know that our times are in your hands, and that "the king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord" [Proverbs 21:1]. Our confidence is in you and in you alone. We come before you as a people who acknowledge our constant need for your provision, wisdom, and protection.
Father, we pray today for Barack Obama as he takes office as President of the United States. We pray that you will show the glory of your name in our times and in these days, confounding the wisdom of the wise, thwarting the plans of the arrogant, and vindicating those who do justice and practice righteousness.
Father, we pray with thanksgiving for the gift of government and the grace of civic order. Thank you for giving us rulers and for knowing our need for laws and ordered life together. Thank you for this nation and the blessings we know as its citizens. Thank you for freedoms unprecedented in human history. We understand that these freedoms come with unprecedented opportunities.
Lord, we pray with thanksgiving for the joy and celebration reflected on millions of faces who never expected to look to the President of the United States and see a person who looks like themselves. Father, thank you for preserving this nation to the moment when an African-American citizen will take the oath of office and become our President. Thank you for the hope this has given to so many, the pride emerging in hearts that had known no such hope, and the pride that comes to a people who have experienced such pain at the hands of fellow citizens, simply because of the color of their skin. Father, we rejoice in every elderly face that reflects such long-sought satisfaction and in every young face that expresses such unrestrained joy. May this become an open door for a vision of race and human dignity that reflects your glory in our differences, and not our corruption of your gift.
Father, protect this president, we pray. We pray that you will surround this president and his family, along with all our leaders, with your protection and sustenance. May he be protected from evil acts and evil intentions, and may his family be protected from all evil and harm.
We pray that the Obama family will be drawn together as they move into the White House, and that they will know great joy in their family life. We are thankful for the example Barack and Michelle Obama have set as parents. Father, protect those precious girls in every way -- including the protection of their hearts as they see their father often criticized and as he is away from them on business of state. May their years in the White House bring them all even closer together.
Father, we pray for the safety and security of this nation, even as our new president settles into his role as Commander in Chief. We know that you and you alone can be our defense. We do not place our trust in horses or chariots, and we pray that you will give this president wisdom as he fulfills this vital responsibility.
Father, grant him wisdom in every dimension of his vast responsibility. Grant him wisdom to deal with a global financial crisis and with the swirling complex of vexing problems and challenges at home and abroad. May he inspire this nation to a higher vision for our common life together, to a higher standard of justice, righteousness, unity, and the tasks of citizenship.
Father, we pray that you will change this president's heart and mind on issues of urgent concern. We are so thankful for his gifts and talents, for his intellect and power of influence. Father, bend his heart to see the dignity and sanctity of every single human life, from the moment of conception until natural death. Father, lead him to see abortion, not as a matter of misconstrued rights, but as a murderous violation of the right to life. May he come to see every aborted life as a violation of human dignity and every abortion as an abhorrent blight upon this nation's moral witness. May he pledge himself to protect every human life at every stage of development. He has declared himself as an energetic defender of abortion rights, and we fear that his election will lead directly to the deaths of countless unborn human beings. Protect us from this unspeakable evil, we pray. Most urgently, we pray that you will bring the reign of abortion to an end, even as you are the defender of the defenseless.
Father, may this new president see that human dignity is undermined when human embryos are destroyed in the name of medical progress, and may he see marriage as an institution that is vital to the very survival of civilization. May he protect all that is right and good. Father, change his heart where it must be changed, and give him resolve where his heart is right before you.
Father, when we face hard days ahead -- when we find ourselves required by conscience to oppose this president within the bounds of our roles as citizens -- may we be granted your guidance to do so with a proper spirit, with a proper demeanor, and with persuasive arguments. May we learn anew how to confront without demonizing, and to oppose without abandoning hope.
Father, we are aware that our future is in your hands, and we are fully aware that you and you alone will judge the nations. Much responsibility is now invested in President Barack Obama, and much will be required. May we, as Christian citizens, also fulfill what you would require of us. Even as we pray for you to protect this president and change his heart, we also pray that your church will be protected and that you will conform our hearts to your perfect will.
Father, we pray these things in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, the ever-reigning once and future King, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. He and he alone can save, and his kingdom is forever. Above all, may your great name be praised. Amen."
SL1M
SL1M:
Maybe Al Mohler can give a prayer when President Obama is elected again in 4 years. Wink-Wink
It has only been 24 hours and people are already going into negative mode with the new President.
I should not be like this but I am. I assume anyone over 60 will have some kind of racial mindset. It does not even phase me anymore when I hear older people say stupid/offensive stuff about race (blacks and whites). I don't want to say it is a hopeless situation with that generation but frankly I expect it at some point. I'm not saying it is right but I do expect it. I am more prone to be surprised if I do not hear it than if I did. Romans 12:2 talks about renewing of the mind. This is one area that will take a while because of the angst still associated with it because of the violent attacks that blacks suffered during those days for no reason than their existence.
If you spend time with older blacks that were coming of age during those days I think it would give more perspective. We can say on this side how we would react because we have never been faced with being threatened with death, jail or job loss when trying to vote legally for the first time, trying to ride the bus in the front seat for a change, having lies told against you just because you are bettering yourself, having crosses burned on your yard, having your house or business bombed or burned to the ground like happened here in Tulsa because whites did not like the fact that blacks were prospering without them, seeing family members or friends strung up on a tree and burned to a crisp while whites laughed and had a party around the tree, etc. Not only were lives taken but in many cases generations of financial heritage was gone forever as happened here in Tulsa. We do not generally ask Jewish people to forget the Holocaust and get with it like many whites demand that blacks that saw all of this do.
I would just ask people to try and imagine how they would feel if in their ancestry they had generations of events like this. As a black person I cannot even imagine this. All I have are stories about some of my ancestors, including my parents. Who knows how many nights some may have nightmares reliving those days, especially parents like the parents of Emmitt Till. Can you parents imagine what it is like to have one of your children die on you? That is NEVER expected no matter what their age is. Imagine that your child was murdered because of a lie someone told on them. Imagine that lie was told because of your skin color to teach them a lesson. I'm sure his parents until they died have pictures in their mind of his horribly disfigured body in the casket. He was murdered for nothing at the age of 15. As far as I remember I do not think anyone was convicted for this. I know in recent years that have tried some of these cases but I do not remember if this was one of them. Many parents suffered this during those days with no justice from our court system.
Our government used black men as guinea pigs during the Tuskegee experiments where they were given syphilis and told they were dealing with an innocuous blood germ or something like that. When a cure was found for syphillis these black men were never told about it. This went on for many years until it stopped when I was a teen in 1973. Tell me how many men are really sensitive when it comes to issues relating to sex. Who knows what that did to the psyche of these men and their families. Some people could very well be dealing with post traumatic stress disorder like soldiers that have experienced combat. As disgusting as what I experienced was I was never threatened with my life or loss of financial provision. All I have are stories of relatives and friends and what they experienced during those dreadful days in our history.
With that said I was bothered at the end of Lowery's prayer mainly because of the occasion it was prayed. Obama said that he wanted to unite people and transcend race. This is yet another choice made (many were throughout his campaign) that belies that attempt. At the same time I am not surprised at it either. Who knows what the man saw in his youth. I agree that there could be race baiting in cases like this. However there are many sincere people that have not been able to get past this. Frankly to do so depending on what people have experienced will be a miracle. Some have been able to get past things. For others it has been harder. God did not create human beings to experience those types of experiences once, much less years, decades and generations.
SL1M, that prayer would not have made it past the first line:)
debbiekaufman said...
It is easy to tell others 'not to dwell on the past' when it's not YOUR past.
I agree. And for some, the past is the present. In other words, it's still happening. Hopefully that will change even more. It's 2009 for goodness sake.
Wed Jan 21, 01:51:00 PM 2009
Reply: That's easy for someone in lily-white Enid to say.
According to Wiki: The racial makeup of the city [Enid] was 87.18% White, 3.91% African American, 2.12% Native American, 1.00% Asian, 0.58% Pacific Islander, 2.36% from other races, and 2.84% from two or more races. 4.74% of the population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.
Compare that to living in some place like Washington, D.C., Detroit, or Memphis and see how you feel.
In 2007, the population distribution [of Washington, D.C.] was 55.6% black, 36.3% white, 8.3% Hispanic (of any race), 5% other (including Native Americans, Alaskans, Hawaiians, and Pacific Islanders), 3.1% Asian, and 1.6% mixed (two or more races).[68] There were also an estimated 74,000 foreign immigrants living in Washington, D.C. in 2007.[68] Major sources of immigration include El Salvador, Vietnam, and Ethiopia, with some concentration of Salvadorans in the Mount Pleasant neighborhood.
__________
The racial makeup of the city [Detroit] was 81.6% Black, 12.3% White, 1.0% Asian, 0.3% Native American, 0.03% Pacific Islander, 2.5% other races, 2.3% two or more races, and 5.0 percent Hispanic.
__________
According to the 2007 American Community Survey, the city's [Memphis's] population was 32.8% White (30.2% non-Hispanic-White alone), 63.1% Black or African American, 0.6% American Indian and Alaska Native, 1.7 Asian, 0.1% Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, 2.9% from some other race and 1.2% from two or more races. 4.6% of the total population were Hispanic or Latino of any race.
__________
One has only to compare the crime rates for those and similar cities. George W. Bush is out of office. Who's fault will it be now?
i don't doubt that Obama will be a vast improvement for the U.S. and the rest of the world
Notice folks...any criticism will be rendered automatically as racism.
It is going to be hard to have any debate of substance on any issue for the next 4 years.
I was taught to be color blind. I had a black SS teacher at the age of 5. But, recently I had a PhD in Education tell me that to be color blind was racist. Color me confused.
Can I get a pass? My ancestors were abolitionists. In the South, mind you.
Lydia
Lydia,
You were prophetic.....Iam already a racist over on Dr Kears blog. Simply for trying to explain that some members of the Black community see certain terms as complimentary rather then deragatory.
Rob
Mike Kear
Do you really believe that Cyber-Lynching is a Christian virtue?
Rob
From the whitehouse.gov site under 'the agenda':
Support for the LGBT Community
"While we have come a long way since the Stonewall riots in 1969, we still have a lot of work to do. Too often, the issue of LGBT rights is exploited by those seeking to divide us. But at its core, this issue is about who we are as Americans. It's about whether this nation is going to live up to its founding promise of equality by treating all its citizens with dignity and respect."
-- Barack Obama, June 1, 2007
Expand Hate Crimes Statutes: In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported and made up more than 15 percent of such crimes. President Obama cosponsored legislation that would expand federal jurisdiction to include violent hate crimes perpetrated because of race, color, religion, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, or physical disability. As a state senator, President Obama passed tough legislation that made hate crimes and conspiracy to commit them against the law.
Fight Workplace Discrimination: President Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, and believes that our anti-discrimination employment laws should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity. While an increasing number of employers have extended benefits to their employees' domestic partners, discrimination based on sexual orientation in the workplace occurs with no federal legal remedy. The President also sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Support Full Civil Unions and
Federal Rights for LGBT Couples: President Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples legal rights and privileges equal to those of married couples. Obama also believes we need to repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions. These rights and benefits include the right to assist a loved one in times of emergency, the right to equal health insurance and other employment benefits, and property rights.
Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage: President Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment in 2006 which would have defined marriage as between a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried couples.
Repeal Don't Ask-Don't Tell: President Obama agrees with former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff John Shalikashvili and other military experts that we need to repeal the "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve. Discrimination should be prohibited. The U.S. government has spent millions of dollars replacing troops kicked out of the military because of their sexual orientation. Additionally, more than 300 language experts have been fired under this policy, including more than 50 who are fluent in Arabic. The President will work with military leaders to repeal the current policy and ensure it helps accomplish our national defense goals.
PAMELA: You are absolutely entitled to your feelings about the painful heritage of your family.
I suppose 'denial' is what the German people did when the truth came out about the Holocaust victims.
They were also not wanting to hear about it.
They actually said things like, 'It wasn't six million, it was ONLY two million.'
And they played the 'I was just following orders.' card. Sometimes they said, 'it didn't really happen . . . but then there were all those photographs and films . . .
So on this blog, you are seeing a kind of 'denial' from some.
But not from me.
My mother's ancestors were slave-owners in North Carolina.
I can say that openly and honestly and I can also say that any person of color whose family has endured through the nightmares of slavery and discrimination:
those people have the right and the DUTY to speak out,
openly, and honestly.
Underneath all the negative comments aimed at black people who do speak out is a kind of 'we don't want to hear it'
and 'we are not responsible', and
'don't bother us about this' and
'don't bring up the past.'
But Pamela, these people may be 'in denial'. Collect the stories of your family. Give a voice to your ancestors who couldn't speak in their life times. Tell the truth.
The truth is not pretty, it will offend many, it is painful to tell and painful to hear.
But it must be told and heard.
And why?
Because, for the love of Almighty God, they were HUMAN BEINGS.
THEY WERE HUMAN BEINGS.
Pamela, let them speak through you.
Stand up FOR THEM. Be an advocate and a witness FOR THEM.
And about those who 'don't want to hear it'; sometimes they are the ones who need to hear it most.
I am six generations descended from slave owners, Pamela, and I want and need to hear what you have to tell.
If I can listen with respect,
that should give you some hope and encouragement. L's
Some people voted for our President because he was black what does that make them?
Pamela-
My mother will be 61 this year - she doesn't have a racist bone in her body. As a matter of fact, her mom, my grandmother, went out of her way to include in her life and activities anyone who was marginalized in any way. Perhaps this was because she was dirt poor and marginalized herself for most of her life. At any rate, she instilled in my mom to accept everyone - even those she disagrees with as just as important as herself. She may be the minority, but take heart anyways as there are a few older folks that are not racist.
BTW: My dad, though very racist when he was younger, he has softened up quite a bit in his older years (he's 73) in many areas and what was once blatant racism on his part has vanished as far as I can tell.
Alan Paul, glad to hear your experience. As I stated I probably need to change that assumption:) I guess I had been around so many older people that were not like your Mom that I came to the conclusion that it would be rare to meet them. I'm sure that when this discussion is broadened (as I'm sure it will be in the days to come) I will meet more of them.
Heading to mid-week service.
I once saw an episode of a sitcom years ago where one of the characters aspired to be a journalist after excelling in English class in high school. When she took a shot at her first attempt at writing a news story, she used so many 25 and 50 cent words and so many eloquent adjectives to describe the event she was reporting on that her professor keyed off her extremely overcooked style of writing and called her paper, "replete with stinkiosity". What reminded me of this long ago episode? Slim's prayer - only it is replete with religiosity.
Al Mohler's prayer is aimed at a narrow audience: even in the Christian realm, it is still a very narrow Christian audience.
That's okay. Other faiths and other Christians probably wouldn't freak out if Mohler read that prayer at the inauguration, except for one problem:
what about all the others who expect a prayer that represents or at least respects who they are ?
So, Al Mohler would come off as being disrespectful and a bit of a prideful 'triumphalist' which in mainstream Christianity, is considered disrespectful to other faiths.
Al Mohler is not 'mainstream'.
Many Baptist are, but not the SBC, which has morphed into a fundamentalist-Landmarkist splinter group, having forced many of their own members to conform or leave.
No, Mohler would be received with respect by the crowd. But his words would not respresent that which is respectful to the beliefs of all the people present.
And respect was what was needed,
respect for all the faiths represented in our country. Mohler couldn't begin to deliver on that score.
He's a one-trick pony on the benediction circuit.
Sounds like Mohler is a big fish in a little pond;
who would be a little fish in a big pond.
NYT: Oath Is Administered Once Again
WASHINGTON – President Obama was re-administered the oath of office on Wednesday evening by Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., one day after the two men stumbled over each other’s words during the inauguration.
We dont care about this idiot.
Rob
ROB, you need to calm down.
You are too wound up.
Try to calm down and not use Wade's blog when you are unable to control yourself. It is a little too obvious that you are having some problems. Settle down.
Anonymous,
Not wound up at all. Just could care less about Obama. He will live his life and I mine!
God Bless
Rob
Before one undertakes to criticize what someone else prays, he should realize that the one praying wasn't talking to you.
Bravo !
Rex and Rob,
Why did we not have this poem in our American Literature classes?
One guess only. This is not ancient history. This happened in my life time.
Southern trees bear strange fruit,
Blood on the leaves and blood at the root,
Black bodies swinging in the southern breeze,
Strange fruit hanging from the poplar trees.
Pastoral scene of the gallant south,
The bulging eyes and the twisted mouth,
Scent of magnolias, sweet and fresh,
Then the sudden smell of burning flesh.
Here is the fruit for the crows to pluck,
For the rain to gather, for the wind to suck,
For the sun to rot, for the trees to drop,
Here is a strange and bitter crop.
I would hate to be a poor black person living in America.
BTW, would you please tell us what a "Side Walk Committee" was and what was their responsiblity at Baptist Churches in such cities as Memphis, Richmond, Charlotte, Montgomery, Burmingham, Meridian, Jackson, Baton Roughe to name a few.
Phil in Norman
Debbie,
I’ve been thinking and thinking…could you give me a hint on the holes in my comment?
While you’re thinking, I’ll add more info. While 16 and 17, I went to a military school in Frankfurt, Germany during the Berlin airlifts.
We visited Hitler’s hide-out and the Nunberg Trials where the defense made pleas for their lives.
I had a crush on the prettiest girl, Maryann DeCabb (don’t know why I remember this black girl’s name) but never got around to holding hands until I was 18.
She moved to Munich and the last time I saw her, she was in the bleachers at a track meet where I won the mile race. We waved to each other, but I was too bashful to say hello.
I lived in White Settlement, Texas where NAACP tried to make them change its name, but it was proved to be a fort against Indians that grew into a town. (Maybe the Indians should sue.)
Grand Prairie, Texas has two high schools. The old one, Grand Prairie, was in the extreme North of town.
The new one, in the extreme South of town , named theirs South Grand Prairie and chose the Confederate flag since the schools were arch rivals. After ten years or so, NAACP made South remove its flag.
My 16 year-old grandson works nights at a grocery store. The manager asked him to help prevent a shop lifter from leaving until the police got there.
His friends came from the parking lot and hit my grandson in the head with a wine bottle while his back was turned. All four got away.
I can’t say more for fear of being called a raciest.
Sure, there’s crime by whites, but what’s the ratio in prisons?
One night, our car had a dead battery in Washington D.C. My wife kept the doors locked with our kids inside as there was a multitude…sidewalk to sidewalk going past.
One black tried to rob me. Another returned with cables and got our car started and wouldn’t take any money.
Phil,
I never heard the poem or a “Side Walk Committee”. The poem sounds like it could have been written for the sons of Saul.
Let me ask you, how does two wrongs make a right?
Yes, the whites mistreated blacks. Is it their turn to mistreat us?
You may ask how they mistreat us—did it ever occur to you how much blacks cost the U.S. taxpayer in welfare etc?
The new President has proven them wrong by his example of WORK.
BTW it will be interesting if all our financial problems will be solved by the ones that got us in the mess to start with.
Maybe they have an advantage in the old saying, ‘It takes a crook to catch a crook’.
Mohler's prayer wasn't directed toward men. It was directed toward God.
That's why so many here on earth listening would have found it offensive.
notice how wade stirs it up then steps out? time for a new issue...
Mohler's prayer was a speech to his base. He did all the 'right' things. This is a republican prayer. This is partisan. He reinforces the 'separations' in America. That is exactly what his base wants.
In short, he does no wrong for the 'right'. But he does not speak for those who are held in contempt by the 'right'. And it is 'contempt'. Loud and clear.
The people of faith who do not share Mohler's right-wing Republican views: these people are not the 'audience' Mohler wrote for and speaks to.
Let's be honest. It is basically a political pleaser for the right-wing. Nothing wrong in that.
It is what it is. Right-wing Christianity is a big part of the Republican base. Mohler, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, and the obstructionists are at work now.
It is to be expected. It is the nature of the beast. The 'opposition' is simply organizing and moving towards the founding of the 'Christian Nation'.
Mohler is no Billy Graham.
"Father, we pray that you will change this president's heart and mind on issues of urgent concern. We are so thankful for his gifts and talents, for his intellect and power of influence. Father, bend his heart to see the dignity and sanctity of every single human life, from the moment of conception until natural death. Father, lead him to see abortion, not as a matter of misconstrued rights, but as a murderous violation of the right to life."
This is a "Republican prayer"? Where does Mohler get that virtue? Where does he get that value?
He gets it from the bible. It is not his personal opinion.
If that is his "base", then please count me in.
I assume you are in the other base. What does your bible say about the issue of abortion?
And he is certainly not a Billy Graham. Mohler thinks there is only one way. And His name is Jesus Christ.
"them" versus "us" started at the dawn of human history.
It took Christ to teach of God's love for all His creation.
But soon, men decided that
Christ came for 'us' the elect,
not for 'them' the others.
But some listened to Christ.
Some learned from Him.
Some keep His light and wait for His Return.
Maybe He is waiting to come back until the divisions cease among us, and with the help of the Holy Spirit, we will discover our common humanity: as we are all the Sons of Adam and the Daughters of Eve, created by God in His Image, and therefore we are all His children. Maybe He is waiting for a sign from us that we know who we really are.
' and who is my neighbor ? '
"Sure, there’s crime by whites, but what’s the ratio in prisons?"
Majority of the black prisoners who are mostly men, are rounded because of the drug laws. I believe the laws are stacked against blacks in this situation. (Examples: Crack Cocaine versus drugs used by Whites). If you look at the percentage of population who uses drugs the most (number of people and dollars), it's mostly the White who are in the majority of drug use (also because they are in the majority of the population). Then why are they not in the majority of the US Prison population?
We all know what happened with Native Americans and alcohol.
I do not condone any drug use. If Jesus was here today, he would reach out to ALL the suffering people and give them home and hope. He is alive today. The Word is alive today. Thank God.
Good post, Wade.
While I am politically more conservative that President Obama, and I do have some basic beliefs that differ from his, I will say this:
[1] I am happy to see that in our country, a black man now has the same opportunity that whites have had for years. It is a sign of progress.
[2] I was fine with Rick Warren's prayer. Genuine. Passionate. In Christ's name.
[3] While President Obama did not receive my vote, he will receive my respect and support. By this, I mean that I will honor the office and pray for God to help him as he leads.
Blessings to you all!
Hi REX RAY,
it's me, L's
You need to speak about your experiences, the same as Pamela, because putting things out on the table, in plain sight, in the light, is a healthy way to begin.
Yes, you also are entitled do your feelings about what has happened in your own experience.
At least now, the SILENCE that has covered and fostered prejudices: the silence has been broken.
Now the dialogue can begin.
Terrible things happened during slavery and reconstruction times.
The lynchings didn't stop with emancipation. Pamela is right.
I am not young. I witnessed a peaceful protest at a lunch counter in my city as a girl.
I remember the young black people sitting with quiet dignity while they were cursed at and had things thrown at them. Some of them were praying, I remembered that.
Some of them were praying.
And your stories, I know, are true.
Things happened. Terrible things.
And YOU need to be able to talk about it, without being called 'a racist'. That freedom to speak openly IS THE BEGINNING of the healing that is needed.
You need to talk about it.
All people need to hear it.
All of us together need to try to understand what happened.
There is a term you may have heard: CATHARSIS .
I think our country is at a point now where we CAN look honestly back on things that happened and are happening. We can face it, with truth and with Christian hearts in the Light of Christ. And, we can begin to understand and begin to heal.
Cut open the sores that hold the hate and resentment: release the poisons, and let the wounds begin to heal.
So speak. You don't hate. You are no more a racist than Pamela is. You are both people who have been hurt.
In His Way, in His time, Christ can heal all hurts.
We know this to be true. L's
P.S. You wrote this,
"One night, our car had a dead battery in Washington D.C. My wife kept the doors locked with our kids inside as there was a multitude…sidewalk to sidewalk going past.
One black tried to rob me. Another returned with cables and got our car started and wouldn’t take any money."
You understand the important things. No racism from you, Rex, just the truth. That is obvious.
"Maybe He is waiting to come back until the divisions cease among us,..."
Maybe you need to read the bible for what it says and stop making up hypotheticals.
Furthermore, if Jesus is waiting until divisions cease among us before He returns, He will never return.
He will not need to return because He will not be needed. We worked it out ourselves.
You have a very high (hopeful) view of man which consequently causes you to have a very weak view of God. I think this is unintentional on your part, but true nonetheless.
CHRIST'S PRAYER: in vain ?
John 17:21 is a verse from the Bible. The verse says:
"That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me"
These are Christ's words.
This are His wishes.
'that they all also may be one in us'
WHY? 'that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me'
COMMENT: some see mankind in a different way than you do.
More hopeful. There is something in people that reaches upward, something that the ancient ancestral sin did not destroy.
That grain of God's Image that still lives in us, that little spark that did not die: that is the reason we are 'human' and we remain His Children still: just a little lost from Him and a little lost from each other.
I see that, with the help of the Holy Spirit, we do have a responsibility to seek God,
and to seek out and recognize each other as our brothers and our sister: His Children.
Let the Will of Christ be done.
He did not say that prayer for no reason. It was not said in vain.
Rex Ray, you are NOT a racist. I grew up in the DC area. I know the hellhole that place is. That is why I left there in 1977 never to live in that area again. Sad to say some bitter blacks are all about revenge, payback or whatever you want to call it, much of it provoked by the fact that a lot of injustices that were done long ago were never dealt with fairly. No justification for it but it is a fact nonetheless.
I absolutely agree with L's that people need to tell their stories. This is what I try and promote. Somehow I am able to share things and whites have felt comfortable to share things like happened to Rex. One thing I believe Obama's election will do is to begin the hard discussions in a more pronounced way but not magically change hearts as I stated before. My conviction has been all along is that people are either afraid or just frustrated about the issues surrounding race. When I openly state something it has made it easy for whites to open up to me. Healthy debate energizes me. Redemption and restoration is my passion in life. I'm sure this is because of what Christ has done in me. I hate seeing people broken and will do what I can to change it. I know that the only way for things to change is to talk. The issue with talking is the feeling of safety where feelings can be expressed without fear of ridicule, harassment or threats. This is one reason I decided to respond to this blog post. A lot of people will not talk about challenging issues, especially in our day, because of the vitriol that people receive.
I insist on dealing with the issues, not the motivations of people. When people say there is a lack of understanding in many ways (on both sides of this issue) I believe it is very true. With that lack of understanding there is no empathy. Understanding and empathy will not occur unless people feel free to share their perspectives. Depending on the situation I will be bold enough to ask how whites feel and think about things. I have gotten a lot of questions about what they have seen but question. I boldly answer them BUT put things in context with the Bible. Again the ones I'm around know that I am not trying to berate them but relate to them in a deeper way. I love peace. I hate angst. It is one thing to discuss something with passion. It is another to go after people. Issues of race can be discussed without the angst and vitriol. That can only happen when people have been able to get past the past. That is my sincere prayer.
With the grace of the Holy Spirit, the Lord's disciples, inspired by love, by the power of the truth and by a sincere desire for mutual forgiveness and reconciliation, are called to re-examine together their painful past and the hurt which that past regrettably continues to provoke even today. All together, they are invited by the ever fresh power of the Gospel to acknowledge with sincere and total objectivity the mistakes made and the contingent factors at work at the origins of their deplorable divisions. What is needed is a calm, clear-sighted and truthful vision of things, a vision enlivened by divine mercy and capable of freeing people's minds and of inspiring in everyone a renewed willingness, precisely with a view to proclaiming the Gospel to the men and women of every people and nation.
So may it be.
Terrible things have happened to people of all races and ethnic backgrounds. My own family is scots irish, and were indentured servants in the south. Leaving there they faced ghettos and discrimination.
I live now in a strongly hispanic and italian town. These people faced racism and were killed for taking "american" jobs. Now they practice the same disdain for anglos.
Part of my ancestry is cherokee. Anyone want to discuss the trail of tears?
My point? All of us, every race and creed and color, fall short of the glory of God and sin.
All of us have been victims of sin.
But praise God and His grace, we CAN both speak of the past and its hurts, never forgetting, AND move on into a good, healthy, successful life.
I did not vote for President Obama. But I am thankful race did not prevent his election. I am thankful for the progress made in our country, and the right to continue to make progress.
I would suggest that ALL of us speak against racism, and that ALL of us speak most sharply against it to those of our own particular ancestry.
Peace, and yes, story time will continue for now--following state mandates which do include black history in January.
Linda
HEBREW INAUGURAL PRAYER
“Seek out the peace of the city where I cause you to roam
and pray for her sake to God YHVH*, for in her peace you all will have peace.” (Jer. 29:7)
May it be good in Your eyes to give a wise heart to this government
to bring justice and peace to all the inhabitants of the world and to Jerusalem,
as it is said, "The one who rules through justice upholds the land" (Prov. 29:4)
and may its rule be for good and blessing
for rulership is Yours!
As I stand in witness of this inauguration and in prayer,
I also pray that I may seek peace for this country,
On behalf of all living creatures and in remembrance of the covenant of Noah’s waters
to protect and to not destroy the earth and her plenitude.
May it be Your will that I do good deeds and repair the world with all my actions.
May You give to all the peoples of this country, the strength and will
to pursue righteousness and to seek peace as unified force
in order to cause to flourish, throughout the world, good life and peace
and may You fulfill for us the verse:
“May the pleasure of Adonai* our God be upon us,
and establish the work of our hands for us, may the work of our hands endure.” (Ps. 90:17)
from 'the Velveteen Rabbi'
Linda, I tell black Christians that even though we as a race have suffered horribly it is nothing like what Christ suffered for all mankind. I also tell them that when the Bible says that we must forgive there are no exceptions to that command. I also mention that many blacks who have horribly suffered have someone been able to walk through it and not hold anything against whites. I have seen some go through the process and come out as testimonies of how the Lord can change hearts and minds.
PAMELA wrote this:
"Redemption and restoration is my passion in life. I'm sure this is because of what Christ has done in me. I hate seeing people broken and will do what I can to change it. "
God Bless You, Pamela, forever and ever. L's
L’s and Pamela…Thanks.
Pamela, I love your outlook on life.
You said, “I grew up in the DC area. I know the hellhole that place is.”
We worked there for one week on a church. I was on an elevator with my family, and later our 14 year-old daughter told her mother she had been improperly ‘touched’.
I was waiting for traffic to clear at a ‘yield’ sign and got rear-ended, and yet the most I remember was the testimony of a church member telling what he saw and heard before doctors brought him back to life. Glory!
I get real tired of always hearing how wicked and evil the white man is... I realize there are a lot of inequities and wrongs in life but white people don't have a corner on the market.
My son and daughter attended a public school in the Dallas area and were daily assaulted with verbal barrages of hate from the black students--and of course, with a blind eye from the administrators.
Wrong is wrong regardless of the perpetrator's color of skin.
'ONCE YOU ARE REAL, YOU CAN'T BE UGLY, EXCEPT TO PEOPLE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND ."
Between (all of the nursery toys) the poor little Rabbit was made to feel himself very insignificant and commonplace,
and the only person who was kind to him at all was the Skin Horse.
The Skin Horse had lived longer in the nursery than any of the others.
"What is REAL?"
asked the Rabbit one day, when they were lying side by side near the nursery fender, before Nana came to tidy the room.
"Does it mean having things that buzz inside you and a stick-out handle?"
"Real isn't how you are made,"
said the Skin Horse.
"It's a thing that happens to you.
When a child loves you
for a long, long time,
not just to play with,
but REALLY loves you,
then you become Real."
"Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.
"Sometimes," said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful.
"When you are Real you don't mind being hurt."
"Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," he asked, "or bit by bit?"
"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse.
"You become."
"It takes a long time."
" That's why
it doesn't happen often
to people who break easily,
or have sharp edges,
or who have to be carefully kept."
Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby.
But these things don't matter at all,
because once you are Real you can't be ugly,
except to people who don't understand."
from 'The Velveteen Rabbit"
Praying for our President, Barack Obama
It was my joy to sit with my dear friends, Al Mohler, C.J. Mahaney, Mark Dever, Thabiti Anyabwile and John Piper in Louisville, Kentucky this morning, watching the inauguration of our new President. One of the things we talked about was how to pray for him. Al Mohler has some brilliant guidance here. I also want us, as members of First Presbyterian Church to think Christianly about how to think about and pray for our new President.
As Americans, I suspect that none of us can fully appreciate the far-reaching significance of this event, though our nation and much of the rest of the world are electric with the inauguration of Barack Obama as the new President of the United States of America. To say that this is historic, is a gross understatement.
Many are rejoicing at this very visible public realization of the ideals of the Declaration of Independence at the very pinnacle of our civic life. In the ascendancy of an African-American from less-than-privileged circumstances to the leadership of the free world, we see the fruit of aspirations of the Founders: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights.” You don’t have to read far in the newspapers of the world to see them marveling at yet another astounding accomplishment in the great experiment that is America.
Do you realize that our republic has now enjoyed 44 peaceful transitions of power in our two-plus centuries of existence. There is no parallel for this in human history. And we need to thank God for his singular blessing in bestowing it upon us, undeserving as we are.
But I said I wanted us to think about all this Christianly (and not just as grateful or concerned Americans, much less as giddy Democrats or grumpy Republicans!). And this presents us with some challenges, doesn't it?
As much as we may feel "this is my President and I want him to succeed," as much as we may feel sympathetic joy with millions who watched President Obama's inauguration with tear-filled eyes and hope-filled hearts, feeling themselves a part of the American story in a way they've never felt before, there lingers a question as to how to think about our leader in areas where his views and policies conflict with biblical conviction.
Many Christians find themselves profoundly conflicted because of some of the moral positions and social policies that Mr. Obama espouses. So how do you pray for your President when you disagree with him?
Thankfully, the Bible is not silent about such a question. After all it commands us to pray for all in authority (1 Timothy 2:2), no matter their party, policies or religion (or lack thereof). It is vital that we think Christianly, which is to say, biblically, about this issue (and not just as Democrats or Republicans who happen to be Christian). So, back to the question. How do we pray for Mr. Obama? Here are some ideas (and I want to thank Al Mohler and Justin Taylor for many of these thoughts and words) for praying for our new President, Barack Obama.
First, it needs to be said, that we ought to commit ourselves to pray for our new President, for his wife and family, for his administration, and for the nation. We will do this, not only because of the biblical command to pray for our rulers, but because of the second greatest commandment "Love your neighbor" and what better way to love your neighbor, than to pray for his well-being. Those with the greatest moral and political differences with the President ought to ask God to engender in them, by His Spirit, genuine neighbor-love for Mr. Obama.
We will also pray for our new President because he (and we) face challenges that are not only daunting but potentially disastrous. We will pray that God will grant him wisdom. He and his family will face new challenges and the pressures of this office. May God protect them, give them joy in their family life, and hold them close together.
We will pray that God will protect this nation even as our new President settles into his role as Commander in Chief, and that God will grant peace as he leads the nation through times of trial and international conflict and tension.
We will pray that God would change President Obama's mind and heart on issues of crucial moral concern. May God change his heart and open his eyes to see abortion as the murder of the innocent unborn, to see marriage as an institution to be defended, and to see a host of issues in a new light. We must pray this from this day until the day he leaves office. God is sovereign, after all.
For those Christians who are more concerned than overjoyed about the prospects of an Obama presidency, there should be a remembrance that as our President, Barack Obama will have God-given authority to govern us, and that we should view him as a servant of God (Rom. 13:1, 4) to whom we should be subject (Rom. 13:1, 5; 1 Pet. 2:13-14). Thus, again, we are to pray for Barack Obama (1 Tim. 2:1-2). We are to thank God for Barack Obama (1 Tim. 2:1-2). We are to respect Barack Obama (Rom. 13:7). We are to honor Barack Obama (Rom. 13:7; 1 Pet. 2:17).
For those Christians who are more overjoyed than concerned about the prospects of an Obama presidency, there should be a remembrance of our ultimate allegiance: Jesus is Lord (and thus, He, not we, decides what is right and wrong), we serve God not man, and the Lord himself has promised to establish "the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve him" (Malachi 3:18). Thus, where our new president opposes or undermines biblical moral standards in our society, fails to uphold justice for the unborn, undermines religious liberties or condones an ethos that is hostile to the Gospel, we will pray for God's purposes to triumph over our President's plans and policies.
Without doubt and whatever our particular views may be, we face hard days ahead. Realistically, we must all expect to be frustrated and disappointed. Some now may feel defeated and discouraged. While others may all-too-soon find their audacious hopes unfounded and unrealized. We must all keep ever in mind that it is God who raises up leaders and nations, and it is God who pulls them down, and who judges both nations and rulers. We must not act or think like unbelievers, or as those who do not trust God.
So, now, Christian. Let’s get to work. And pray.
Posted by Ligon Duncan
Hi 'W',
I worked as a teacher in the inner city for a long time, a very long time. There were incidents, but we didn't see it happen between races so much, just between the kids 'being kids'.
We had a whole program, actually taught, about preventing bullying of ANY kind. The teachers were trained in how to administer the program, once the children understood how it worked.
We were 'pro-active' and met the problems head-on. It worked.
We still had 'incidents' of all kinds and some WERE racial. We intervened. Then we turned it around into a teaching thing: open discussion about how to handle it, if it happens to you, why people sometimes act this way, and always, always we emphasized the Golden Rule and this: do what is right, even if its difficult.
I loved that school. It was broken down, falling apart, windows were cracked, books falling apart or none-existant, and the poor little ones, OMG, my heart breaks thinking about it. Yes, people taxes were kept low, but at such a very high cost to the little children.
But is wasn't the problems that we dwelt on: there was a spirit of kindness and decency and caring in that place.
There was a warmth and a 'family spirit' shared by all the faculty and it spilled over to embrace our students. They felt it, too.
I wish your children had had a better experience. I know what 'better' is. I know it is possible, but it is only with great patience and great love that a faculty and an administration can create an environment with a safe, caring atmosphere where children can feel that they are valued. Its not about race, is it?
No, its about something much more than that. So much more. L's
L,s you really are the perfect example of Erasmain Humanism.
shaking my head in wonder!
After I read the first few essay lenhth comments I had to stop... It was exhausting... What's with the essays?
Imprecatory Prayer! - The Church's Duty Against Her Enemies
By Jeff Ziegler
Published May 2008
There is a communion of men with God by which, having entered the heavenly sanctuary, appeal to him in person concerning his promises in order to experience, where necessity so demands, that what they believed was not vain, although he had promised it in word alone.
- John Calvin
Introduction
This grand description of the legislative dynamic of prayer as taken from Calvin’s introduction to the subject in his “Institutes of the Christian Religion,” is an essential foundation for the Church to recover if she is to resolutely and effectively exercise her parliamentary role in the earth.
Explicitly, this “communion of men” reach into the very seat of all governmental authority in heaven and earth through prayer. These prayers are marked not by sentimentality, mystical expression, nor monastic vain babbling. Rather from this lofty plane, they make appeal to the Father through Christ concerning divine legislation, chiefly, that which God has promised to perform in His Law-Word. As depicted, the Church, this “house of prayer for all nations” is asking the “God who keeps covenant forever” to execute his Word “where necessity so demands” thus advancing the Kingdom on “Earth as it is Heaven.”
The aim here is not that the Church should pray for indeed she must even “without ceasing.” Rather the stress is upon the legislative content of prayer. That is for the Church to rightly function in her governmental capacity, she must through prayer and public proclamation legislate God’s will, as revealed alone in Scripture, on earth, thus enforcing the Crown Rights of Christ over all of life.
Again I must stress, that the body and form of these legislative prayers are not subjective and cannot be formed by human instrumentality no matter how noble the thought may be. Rather such praying must be founded upon all that God has vouched to effect exclusively in the inspired and infallible Law-Word of God. God’s written Word is peerless in that it alone is divinely guaranteed not to “return void” and to “accomplish that which I (God) please” even to “prosper in the thing whereto I (God) sent it.”
Positive and Negative Sanctions
The promises of God could be defined as anything that God has vouched to perform. Specifically, the promises of Scripture are grouped throughout in covenantal structures. Within these structures, God promises blessings both spiritual and material for those, who, in the long term, obey His statutes. Through this inheritance of blessing, God multiplies and increases His covenant people, so that in turn, they may advance His purposes in the earth. Just as crucial to understand is that within the same covenantal structures, God promises negative sanctions both spiritual and material for those, who, in the long term, transgress and mock His Law. Thus through the covenantal curse, the wicked are disinherited in history. Through this dynamic of blessing and negative sanctions, the righteous accrue dominion in the earth.
As an example of the covenantal foundations of Scripture we examine the structure of Deuteronomy 28.
The first verse exhorts the Israelite nation to hear, observe, and perform all the commandments which God had given for the expressed purpose of setting her high above all the nations of the earth. Then in the next 13 verses, all the blessings that were to be accrued in relation to their obedience are delineated. Literally blessings are conferred which are coextensive with all of life both spiritual and material and all given with the end of blessing the nations of the earth. However, in the 15th verse the transition to negative sanctions (curses) occurs.
From this point until the end of the chapter, temporal but very real curses are delineated for long term disobedience and covenant breaking. Thus, the negative sanctions exist to disinherit, diminish and eventually destroy wicked unrepentant individuals and nations.
If then the church is to pray and make proclamation covenantally, she must embrace the statutes of Scripture, both the blessings and the curses. For both are inspired by God and necessary for the work of Divine governance.
King David At War
David the warrior king, was a man of covenant who approached civil polity and spiritual worship, with a firm understanding of positive and negative sanctions. Witness the first Psalm. David extols the virtues of the righteous man who delights in God’s Law. He declares blessing and strength for the lawkeeper. The righteous man is described as a tree planted by the water, which brings forth its fruit in due season, whose leaf does not wither. This man is shown to be prospering in “whatsoever he doeth”.
However, David goes on to describe the lawbreaker as one who under the crushing weight of Divine wrath, becomes chaff driven by the wind, who cannot endure the judgement and will by virtue of his wickedness, perish from the earth.
This covenantal understanding is paramount if we are to comprehend, embrace, and emulate David’s imprecatory war Psalms and recapture our lawless society.
Let us examine the controversial 109th Psalm. David is at prayer warring against the enemies of God. In verses 4 and 5, David gives himself to prayer and describes his enemies as those who act with disdain for God and righteousness. From this forensic, legal ground he proceeds to proclaim and enforce the covenantal negative sanctions against these very same enemies in verses 6 through 29.
It is important to note that David is merely applying God’s Law to specific conditions. That is each imprecation found in this Psalm is directly related to definite covenantal sanctions.
There is nothing of David here!
All of his utterance is being inspired by God and applied to very real circumstances. Yet to the casual observer, the language is harsh even hateful. Indeed, this has caused great bewilderment for many learned men who have tried to reconcile such praying with the love ethic of Christ. C.S. Lewis for example found these Davidic imprecatory prayers so offensive that he ascribed them to demonic authorship. C.I. Scofield while not as brazen as Lewis, nevertheless asserts that the imprecatory Psalms amount to something of a Davidic temper tantrum, which under the “old dispensation” was excusable, yet in the “new” is less than desirable behavior.
While these views are common, they are also heretical and in the case of Lewis, blasphemous. Certainly these views (Lewis in particular), fail to take into account that God’s Word is Divinely inspired, infallible, and immutable. Secondly, they fail to understand the covenantal continuity of both Old and New Testaments. What this means practically, is that unless the New Testament specifically changes, modifies, or nullifies an Old Testament principle, that principle is still in effect and is binding. Mr. Scofield and the adherents of dispensational thought find this proper covenantal hermeneutic somewhat disturbing in that it strips away the convoluted notions that the New Testament saint should never act “harsh and hateful” as David. However, David is not praying these prayers autonomously, but rather under Divine inspiration. Thus to assert that David is motivated by hate is to charge the God of Old and New Testaments with maniacal intentions.
Truly, many pietistic clergyman have maintained that the God of the Old Testament is full of wrath and hate and yet the very same God is full of sentiment and love in the New Testament. Rather than a Biblical depiction of the God who “is the same yesterday, today, and forever”, their perception is of a truncated and schizophrenic deity who maintains an identity crises replete with subjective, mercurial and arbitrary actions.
Due to these views, the pietistic, antinomian, dispensationalist framework denies any possibility of enforcing negative sanctions in the temporal yet inconsistently and hypocritically affirms Divine wrath in eternity. Such incongruent thinking is typical of anticovenantalists.
The New Testament Speaks!
Another strange omission by these anemic evangelicals are the numerous imprecations which are found in the New Testament directly from the lips of Jesus and the apostles. For example, In Matthew 23 verses 13, 15, 16, 23, 24, 27, and 29, Christ unleashes a crushing cannonade upon the Pharisees in the form of a seven-fold curse upon their heads! Is this utterance inharmonious with the love of God?
Certainly not!
Rather this is a loving warning of the sure and swift negative sanctions that are about to fall upon those who have prostituted the Law of God if they do not repent. In fact Christ is delivering a covenantal lawsuit that will arrest their miscreant behavior either through repentance or horrific judgement.
Also, the apostle Paul declares anathema (eternal destruction) upon anyone “who loves not the Lord Jesus” in I Cor. 16:22. Again Paul grapples with heretics who were seeking to pervert the church at Galatia when he pronounces a curse upon them in Galatians 1:8 and again praying that they would be emasculated, neutered lest their heresy reproduce in chapter 5:12. In II Timothy 4:14 Paul invokes covenantal theology when he declares that Alexander the metal worker be repaid according to his deeds. Alexander resisted and caused great damage to Paul’s ministry.
Question:- Is this the same Paul who authored the great love chapter namely
I Corinthians 13?
Yes, indeed and the same God who moved upon him with Divine inspiration!
Real Protestants Fight!
For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.
- 2 Corinthians 10:4
Our Protestant forefathers embraced covenantal imprecatory prayer as a potent and Divine weapon that would demolish all opposition to the advance of the Kingdom of Christ. They were not a squeamish lot, and were fully prepared to prosecute the war against the lawless.
We should pray that our enemies be converted and become our friends, and if not, that their doing and designing be bound to fail and have no success and that their persons perish rather than the Gospel and the Kingdom of Christ.
- Martin Luther
If any of the enemies of God’s people belong to God’s election, the Church’s prayer against them giveth way to their conversion, and seeketh no more than that the judgement should follow them, only until they acknowledge their sin, turn, and seek God.
- David Dickson
Dear saints it is time to stand upon the covenants of Scripture. It is time to rise and strike for the advance of the Gospel. No shirkers nor cowards need apply. The call of Divine government is upon you. Will you be girded with terrible resolution as David? Will you join the “communion of men with God? Will you exercise dominion? I pray so for the sake of your children and our republic.
From
http://www.forerunner.com/puritan/PS.Prayer.html
obama is evil
Rob and Rex,
You never heard of the poem because you were reared in a white only controlled environment which chooses all the literature and passed every law.
Just use some common sense.
1600 (1623) the first slave arrives in America on the Mayflower, brought to the land by Calvinist Christians whom we call Pilgrims (I did not say the US); two hundred and fifty years later the slaves are set free without one penny, no education even by role models as to being a father or mother and are expected to compete in a capitalistic society where money is god; immediately they are thrown into one of the worst apartheid situations the world has ever known; the apartheid lasted for one hundred years which makes three hundred and fifty years the black person has been absolutely dominated, persecuted, murdered, raped and robbed; and you expect them to compete against an all white moneyed society. You have chosen to blind your own eyes. It will take another hundred years for the visages of race prejudice in this country to disappear and then only if we all try.
By now you should have gone to good ole' Google and found that the poem was written in the thirties, became the hallmark song of the greatest blues singer in history, Billie Holliday. Ms Holliday ended each one of her shows with a pinpointed spot light on her, with her eyes closed, she sang, "Southern fruit is Strange Fruit." BTW, Billie Holliday passed her herself off as a young, beautiful white woman for years until she tired of living the lie.
A "Side Walk Committee" was a committee of men in almost every Southern Baptist Church in the South that patrolled the parking lots before and during worship to make sure no black family entered into their church and defiled their "sanctuary."
In 1982, I received a call one night from David H.. David H. was my Music Minister at FBC Springtown, Texas. He had taken a church at FBC in one of the cities I mentioned above. He asked me if I had ever heard of a Side Walk Committee. I had.
David resigned that church a few months later, went to Richmond and found the same thing. He is no longer in the ministry.
This did not happen in 1782, 1882 or even in 1962, but in 1982. Do they still have Side Walk Committees in the "Christian" southern cities? You tell me, but the race hatred is still there.
Do not live in an illusion about Barach Obama. If you extricate the Black vote and the Hispanic vote from the election, I would bet that McCain would have won in a landslide.
We have a long ways to go.
Phil in Norman.
Hi Rob,
It's me, L's
Oh dear, an example of an
'erasmainhumanism'
Rob,,is that a breed of cat or dog?
What ever it is, I assure you that I am much worse-looking.
I'm kidding.
I haven't studied Erasmus since religious history class in Catholic prep school in the early sixties. Can't remember much except that he was a scholarly man who remained in the Catholic faith although he did speak out against things that needed reform.
I believe he is given credit for trying to reform abuses from within the Church. Something about 'Renaissance' comes to mind, but I cannot recall specifics. L's
Phil,
I disagree. I thing the vote was focused on the economy.
John kept saying the basics of the economy were strong.
Then things crashed all around him.
People voted their pocket-books and their wallets this time.
Phil
Assume nothing.
I never grew up in a white controlled environment. I grew up in the jungles of Indonesia
Like Sarah Palin said....I just might not answer your questions like you want me too.
Stop implying that those who dislike Obama for his positions are racist.
Off to vote for the English-Only measure here in Nashville!
That probably makes me racist too!
Rob
Rex,
I sincerely appoligize to you. I hope you will forgive me.
I gouped you with Rob. Until I read his last post at 2:15 PM. I did not realize how much hate he has in his theology. It is that type of theology that led to the Salem events and the religious wars between Congregationalist, Presbyterians, Lutherans and Anglicans. I hope he quits studying Calvin so much and starts studying the New Testament. You are nothing like that and I sure did not mean to insinuate in any way that you are or that you are a racist, for you are not.
I have read your comments on this blog and have never picked up that you were hateful or race prejudice in anything you have written.
I come down hard on Rob mainly because of the last line about Obama in his above comment, and what he has written previously on this and the previous post.
Phil in Norman.
Hi, Phil in Norman,
When my Pop, of blessed memory, came from Canada as a five-year old to this country, he and all the family were discriminated against. They did not have much money at first, they were Catholic, they were French-Canadian and French-speaking. The customs and the traditions of the family were solidly French-Canadian.
So. . . in a small New England town, my father suffered much prejudice and bullying.
He remembered it all his life, but hardly ever spoke about it. He did tell one particularly horrible story about a French Canadian boy who was drowned by boys of another ethnic group at a river nearly.
He said the boy was so scared and begged and screamed and screamed until he didn't cry out anymore. So, I guess I know why my father remembered. . .
One generation later, basically our entire family are in medical, legal, and educational fields, educated TO THE MAX and professionally accredited to the max. No prejudice at all for us. If anything, we inherited the American Dream big-time on the back of my father's family's difficult beginnings in this country.
What happened?
We are white. We blended.
Nous parlons anglaise.
Je suis une Americaine. I pass.
If we were black, our family's character and faith and strength would have still given us ALL the opportunities of professional success. But the prejudice would be there still today. Because of skin color. Unfair? You bet.
But now things are changing.
Too slowly for the many who suffer. Too fast for the ones that have to have someone to look down on.
Yes, Phil in Norman, I agree with you that it is going to take more time. But we will not go backwards to that hell that hurt blacks AND damaged the souls of the ones who harmed them.
We won't go back. L's
Someone said they would not ever want to be a poor person living in the American South. While poverty is always tough, poor Americans generally still possess material things that would put them about halfway up the scale anywhere else in the world.
For Possessions -
quality of life -
freedom of choice -
education & medial care -
the rest of the world is still pretty much looking up the ladder at us.
good grief!!! is there a word limit editor on blogger? I thought this was the "comments" section, not the thesis/essay/book/op-ed section.
Yes, In THIS COUNTRY, some
teachers must buy supplies for their students, and sometimes lunch for them, kids go to the 'school nurse' instead of a clinic or a doctor's office, teachers and guidance counselor's sometimes take children out to buy them shoes that fit, and a lot of young kids in our country have never been to the dentist, not to mention having to stay indoors because their neighborhoods are war-zones for drug criminals, and oh, did I mention that a lot of them go to bed hungry?
Don't believe me?
Find out for yourself, but I warn you, you will never feel the same again about the poverty in our country. And, if you go into their neighborhoods, don't go alone and don't go after dark.
But we are still better off in the United States than many third= world countries.
Anonymous 03:29,
Good point. The original post has 348 words; that one comment has 1,785.
Bob Cleveland, that 1,785 article isn't a comment, it's a cry for attention! :)
Phil in Norman, email me if you get a chance.
Dear saints, what will you do about the murderous agenda of humanism? How will you respond? Do you have the ability to respond? If not, why not? Do see the legions of apostates, neo and anti orthodox liberals, antinomians and flat out traitors within the evangelical ranks and loose hope? Is the humanistic juggernaut with its brigades of skeptics, modernists, hedonists, atheists, statists, feminists and other assorted miscreants assured of victory? Are you serious about fighting? Then allow me to lay out a practical plan to prepare you for combat.
First and foremost STUDY! Away with your popular sugar coated devotionals and fanciful “Christian novels” which know nothing of real battle, majoring instead on introspective navel gazing and vain imaginings. Be determined to read and study real theology in order to build your faith and steel you mind to go on the attack! In other words start reading the classic works of John Calvin, John Knox, John Owen, Charles Hodge, A.A. Hodge and B.B. Warfield to name just a few. While your at it, stock up on reconstructionist writers such as Dr. Greg Bahnsen, Gary DeMar, Dr. Ken Gentry, Dr. Gary North and the indomitable Dr. R.J. Rushdoony.
Secondly, ACT! Join with those organizations which have the theological muscle to defeat the “bad guys.” For example, get involved with the 132 year old National Reform Association or the newer Patrick Henry Institute both dedicated to establishing Christ’s Crown and Covenant in the political realm. Or take courses at Reformation Bible Institute or the RBI Correspondence School which is dedicated to theological and social activism. Participate in the many reconstruction societies which are springing up across the country. Or start your own!
The whole point is that “you can’t beat something with nothing.” Evangelical twelve step programs, sentimental, male bonding crying seminars and seeker sensitive churches will be crushed by the humanists. Wake up saints! The humanistic Goliath is on the field and you can’t find your sling shot!
Embracing the Reformed Faith means that a fundamental shift in the way you view the world must take place. Once reformed, you must forswear the compromise of evangelicalism, the apathy of pietism and the apostasy of liberalism. It is time to think like, act like and fight like Protestants. If you want to bring honor to your King, nothing else will do.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wade,
I think your next post should be on the definition of a "comment" and an update on blog etiquette.
Scott
Arkansas
Scott
I don't believe that Wade responds to anonymous comments such as yours.
Charles Page
Collierville, Tennessee
Phil,
Your apology has thrown me for a loop since I’m not used to receiving one. Thank you.
I respect people that are not too big to apologize.
SORRY, NO MORE TORTURE
No more torture. No more secret CIA "black site" detention facilities. And, beginning a year from now, no more use of the Guantánamo Bay prison camp to indefinitely detain terror suspects.
For Americans wondering whether President Barack Obama would bring about change in the United States, those actions Thursday were an important start. They should go a long way toward re-establishing America's moral authority.
The challenge, as Obama aptly put it Thursday, will be "to prosecute the struggle against violence and terrorism "... in a manner that is consistent with our values and our ideals.''
That could prove more challenging than it sounds.
Obama's order requires the CIA and military contractors to follow the 19 interrogation techniques listed in the U.S. Army Field Manual. The manual, which was issued by President Dwight Eisenhower after the Nuremberg Trials, specifically prohibits techniques such as waterboarding. It has served the nation well. But the seriousness of the threat of a future terrorist strike also demands that Obama follow through with his idea of a task force to study the effectiveness of techniques used during the Bush administration. That investigation should include an examination of the extent of any abuses that occurred in the wake of Sept. 11.
Obama promises to draw the line at anything that constitutes torture
Phil in Norman said: "1600 (1623) the first slave arrives in America on the Mayflower, brought to the land by Calvinist Christians whom we call Pilgrims"
Cheap shot to Calvinist! were these Calvinist Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian or separatist? Did Arminians ever bring slaves?
What is the connection of Calvinist to slave ownership?
WHY SOME BAPTISTS SUPPORTED TORTURE (AND STILL DO)
Authority:
Most ordinary citizens hold the presupposition “that the government has both the right and the obligation to undertake the policies it deems necessary to protect national security or advance the common good, and that citizens should trust government with that power,”
That tendency proves even stronger among conservative Christians who believe the biblical text in Romans 13 grants the state a God-ordained right to exercise the power of “the sword.”
“This is related to a broader evangelical authoritarianism—especially in our most conservative quarters—
that elevates the role of the man over his family,
the male pastor over his church, the president over his nation and our nation over the rest of the world,”
“All of these authorities are viewed as having been put into place by God and as answerable primarily or only to God. The kind of checks and balances provided by democratic constitutionalism, the wisdom of other nations and international law are DEVALUED.”
° Intimidation:
Government has the power to impose high costs on anyone who resists its policies.
In the case of evangelicals, critics of the Bush Administration’s policies on torture “have been charged with everything from being soft on terrorism to being closet leftists to offering shoddy definitions of torture to being naïve for not realizing that is a new kind of war against a new kind of enemy requiring new kinds of policies,”
Many evangelical also fell into the trap of objectifying Muslims, he added.
“It is clear to me from the nature of conservative evangelical discourse about Islam and terrorism that many evangelicals after 9/11 perceived Islam as an intrinsically dangerous religion and Muslims as the enemy of both America and Christianity—
as the international cultural ‘other,’”
MONSTER
Vice President Dick Cheney, in another stunning admission during his campaign to burnish the Bush administration’s legacy, said he personally authorized the “enhanced interrogations” of 33 suspected terrorist detainees and approved the waterboarding of three so-called “high-value” prisoners.
“I signed off on it; others did, as well, too,” Cheney said about the waterboarding, a practice of simulated drowning done by strapping a person to a board, covering the face with a cloth and then pouring water over it, a torture technique dating back at least to the Spanish Inquisition. The victim feels as if he is drowning.
Cheney identified the three waterboarded detainees as al-Qaeda figures Abu Zubaydah, Khalid Sheik Mohammed and al Nashiri. “That's it, those three guys,” Cheney said in an interview with the right-wing Washington Times.
Other detainees at secret CIA prisons and at Guantanamo Bay were subjected to harsh treatment, including being stripped naked, forced into painful stress positions, placed in extremes of heat or cold and prevented from sleeping – actions that international human rights organizations, and previously the U.S. government, have denounced as torture and illegal abuse.
“I thought that it was absolutely the right thing to do,” Cheney said of what he called the “enhanced interrogation” of the detainees. “I thought the [administration’s] legal opinions that were rendered [endorsing the harsh treatment] were sound. I think the techniques were reasonable in terms of what they [the CIA interrogators] were asking to be able to do. And I think it produced the desired result.”
Cheney also took issue with the notion that waterboarding was torture.
COMMENT: it should happen to him
What is the connection of Calvinist to slave ownership?
money
making a lot of money
was a sign of being
one of the 'elect'
Republicans continue this
theme: in according special
favors to the rich in our country
at the expense of the middle class
'total depravity'
low view of humanity
negros worth 2/3 of a human
negros not identified as human
"dehumanized'; and became 'property'
shall we continue ?
As Col. Jessup would say...
"Anonymous, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Anonymous coward? I have more responsibility here than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Johnny Taliban, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That water boarding, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. I know deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a coward who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then question the manner in which I provide it. I prefer you said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand to post."
http://www.mydesert.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2008812130338
http://www.marines.mil/units/mciwest/29palms/Pages/27rememberstheircourageousbrothers.aspx
Anonymous cowards who refuse to sign their names make me sick. Sleep well though, my Marines have your back.
Jessop.
Now there was a REAL monster.
certifiable.
Resolution On Torture
June 1977
WHEREAS, Evidence of the reality of torture and its proliferation is undeniable even in our contemporary world, and
WHEREAS, Torture is a sign of spiritual death and leads to increased moral blindness, producing fear, hatred, violence, and war, and dehumanizes both the torturer and the person tortured.
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, That we the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention, assembled in Kansas City, Missouri on June 16, 1977, do hereby condemn any use of torture as a sin against God and a crime against humanity. We affirm that torture demonstrates the very opposite of love and violates the will of God revealed in Jesus Christ.
AL MOHLER SUPPORTS USE OF TORTURE
“I would argue that we cannot condone torture by codifying a list of exceptional situations in which techniques of torture might be legitimately used,” Mohler wrote. “At the same time, I would also argue that we cannot deny that there could exist circumstances in which such uses of torture might be made necessary.”
such good little Nazis
Anonymous, have you ever had to hand a folded flag to a weeping wife and her children whose husband/dad won't be home for Christmas? Have you ever scraped the brains of your best friend off your boots because he felt little girls had the right to attend school? Have you ever pushed the wheel chair of 19 yr old who has no legs because he stood up for a young boy that was being raped by narco-terrorist?
I didn't think so.
Rob,
Your words, "Obama is evil."
I have not called you a racist. You have called the President of the United States evil. Don't worry. It is the same position that Osama bin Laden takes. I think you are very unwise in taking positions you have not thought through or know little about.
I think you do have a lot of hate deep down for those who disagree with you politically and this scares me because of what those who have hate in their heart have done in the name of Christ historically:
The Spanish Inquisition which started against Muslims and culminated against Jews.
The Crusaders ripping unborn babies from the mother's wombs while destroying whole communities of women and children in the name of Christ.
The religious wars I already mentioned.
Anti-abortionists bombing clinics, shooting doctors, throwing blood and unborn fetuses on young women entering into Planned Parenthood Clinics.
Demonstrating at funerals not understanding that those sinners who die are still loved by the innocent parents, brothers, sisters, and other loved ones.
I, too, am against abortion except for very limited reasons: health of the mother such as a tubal pregnancy, incest pregnancy of pre-teen, a gang rape.
I, too, am a conservative in theology, white tulip Calvinist, dispensationalist on the line of D. G. Barnhouse or Dallas Theological Seminary. I just do not go to seed on it and preach it every Sunday or even every year.
I, too, believe in inerrancy or plenary inspiration of Scripture and believe the Scriptures are the only rule for faith and practice.
I do believe we make a terrible mistake in putting our politics before Christ.
I believe in an absolute wall of separation between Religion (Church) and State by taking the same position as our Baptist forefathers took such as Roger Williams.
I think we should be more concerned about winning our community to Christ than getting a Republican or a Democrat elected to office.
Phil
HONOR.
DUTY, HONOR, COUNTRY
HONOR
NOT TORTURE. NOT US.
Annonymous,
I agree with you and Bill Clinton. It is with few exceptions about the economy which makes what I say even more true. If Kerry or Gore had run instead of Obama, the landslide would have been in historic proportions, even bigger than LBJ's landslide in '64.
Phil
battalion chpl.
if you were involved in torture,
better admit it now to your superiors.
don't worry, apparently you are not the ONLY 'christian' preacher defending the far-right torture policies. Oh no. you aren't the only one.
no excuses, soldier, for dishonorable conduct.
this isn't a terrorist state.
when we become 'like them', they win.
sounds like they got to YOU.
Phil,
Rob is a follower of Rushdooney's crowd: 'reconstructionists' a.k.a.
'Dominionists'.
They are preparing for the take-over of our government and converting it from a free democracy to a 'theocracy'.
Check out some of the references Rob has alluded to. It will 'scare' you all right.
'Hate' is a mild term for what they are all about.
Honestly, between the 'Dooney's', the loonies, and the Moonies, we have to be very vigilant if we want to keep our country free.
WatchingHistory,
I agree it is a cheap shot, but one that needs to be taken when you are yourself a Calvinist as I am and someone like Rob is parading his Calvinism while saying, "Obama is evil," and we should hate the sinner. He seems to be young and there is much hope for him.
The Plymouth Colony was the future of Puritan America. The violence of the Puritans in England, Europe and America needs to be acknowledged by we who hold to a Calvinist interpretation of Scripture.
Calvinism, if not guarded, can lead into such narrow thinking that it debases the Gospel that it seeks to glorify. Man is a sorry creature who glories in the debase, but at the same time can aspire to a greatness that is breath taking because of the image of God within him.
The glory of God is one thing, but so is his love. I do not think His glory outshines His love, and if He loves me not in Christ, He is no good to me; however, praise God, He does love me in Christ.
Phil
.
Anonymous 12:47 AM,
That does explain why I thought he was just a young college boy trying his wings. I was there myself many years ago; however, if he is a Christian Reconstructionist such as Rushdooney, that explains it all.
Rob,
I implore you by the grace of God, get out of that movement for it is indeed evil to the very center or else deny that is your position.
I know you will have no problem in protesting your innocence by denouncing the charge you are Reconstructionist since you screamed bloody murder when you thought I insinuated you were a racist.
Phil in Norman.
I do not wish to get into the efficacy of torture in extracting possible useful information. I would encourage you all to watch Zimbardo's lectures either at MIT or TED, I posted earlier from Cindy's blog. He has a short segment on Abu Ghraib incident of the pictures.
I still think more finesse and social intelligence coupled with humanely treating prisoners will in the long run yield better quality intelligence than torture. The only argument for torture would be that it would prevent lives in a timely manner. Historical factual evidence is against it, though anecdotal evidence suggested is otherwise.
NYT: Obama Reverses Key Bush Security Policies
NYT: Freed by U.S., Saudi Becomes a Qaeda Chief
Time to begin investigations for the coming war crimes trials.
There is no 'HUMAN' argument FOR torture. Torture is inhumane.
Now, did Christ make a case for torture?
If so, I would like to hear it.
If not, WHAT ON EARTH ARE CHRISTIAN PEOPLE DOING DEFENDING THIS BARBARIC
TECHNIQUE ????
Short term expediency ?
Too high a price to pay for our country's honor.
The honor of our country has been upheld by the deaths of too many patriots, to be destroyed by neo-cons who 'don't get it' that torture is not honorable.
From "Mayflowerhistory.com" FAQ section.
Were there any blacks on the Mayflower?
There were no blacks on the Mayflower. The first black person known to have visited Plymouth was 30-year old John Pedro, presumably a servant or slave, who stopped at Plymouth in 1622 before heading on to Jamestown, Virginia. There are no records of any blacks living in Plymouth Colony until 1643, when an individual referred to simply as "the blackamore" is listed as one of the men between the ages of 16 and 60 who was capable of carrying arms in the defense of Plymouth (think of it as the first Selective Service list in America). The next mention of a black in Plymouth records seems to be a 1653 court record mentioning a "neager maide servant of John Barnes" who testified on her master's behalf in a lawsuit against John Smith. During the King Philip's War of 1676, a black named Jethro was captured by the Indians, but taken back by the colonists a few days later. In a subsequent court action, he was ordered to be a servant for two more years and then he was to be freed. Plymouth, for the most part, had servants and not slaves, meaning that they usually got their freedom after turning 25 years of age.
While we seem to have moved to debating torture, I would like to add to the race discussion from earlier. My biggest objection against the repeated recounting of past events is that it keeps the event current -- ie, you cannot move past an event you constantly relive.
There is also a lot of mis-information out there. Freed slaves were not penniless. The US Government gave them money. That being said, between bitter southerners and scheming carbetbaggers, that money was soon taken from them. Money without education on fiscal responsibility.
But to say that African-American's can't get an education and get into the work-force is hogwash. I've met too many who worked hard, received scholarships (many who received scholarships that were race neutral) and excelled.
I do not deny that prejudice still exists. I do not state that all companies are fair. But, since the early '90s, the majority are fair, and that majority is growing daily.
Insulting non-African Americans, blaming them for the actions of previous non-African Americans does not help the problem, it perpetuates it.
Things have definitely improved in this country. If nothing else Obama's election revealed that there are not as many racists as believed by some. If the past can be reviewed in context of progress it is not bad. Unfortunately in some circles that is not the case, hence the angst we see.
For Christians our focus has to be on His view of all of this. Bitterness is never acceptable. It destroys and keeps those bound in prison. Bitter people will never see things accurately but through the veil of what they are bitter about. There are no exceptions to this. We are to forgive regardless of what is done to us or what we perceive was done. Only the Lord's power can do this where we can love with His love. I know many have gone through this process with the Lord and I trust more will in the days to come.
We have definitely come a long way and I truly believe if nothing else Obama's election will make it easier for some to continue the discussion and others to maybe scrape up the nerve to start one.
Ish, I also decided to skip the torture discussion:)
TORTURE
One morning in 1995, a man complained to an editor about the pornography in the newspaper. After the discussion the editor shook hands and told him to come back anytime.
The man went to the lobby to wait for his appointment with the owner of the newspaper.
The editor told him he was not talking to his boss and called the police. A large city policeman sat by him while his partner talked to the editor in his office. The man explained what was going on.
The policeman said, “I’m taking you downstairs!”
“Why don’t you wait until your partner decides what to do?”
His face turned red, and he grabbed the man and threw him over the lobby’s banister. In the process the policeman fell across a table and onto the floor. Women screamed. The man caught the railing and had climbed back over when the other policeman ran from the office.
The man held his hands up while yelling, “No trouble here!” Face down on the floor with his hands handcuffed behind him, the big policeman jerked his head back and forth—taking handfuls of hair. (Later, someone mailed his hair to him.)
“Let go of me and I’ll walk down the stairs by myself. You’re going to push me and say I tripped.”
The man woke up in a police car with blood running down the window.
“A captain was yelling, “How many times do I have to tell you not to hit someone when you arrest them? Take him to the hospital!”
“Ah, he’s not hurt. He’s tough.”
“Well, take him to the county police.”
“We hear you’re a tough fighter.”
“I’m not the fighter. The city police are the fighters.”
“We’re going to find out how tough you are. You and me are going to have a little fight.”
“I’m not going to fight anyone. Besides I outweigh you sixty pounds.”
“He doesn’t understand does he? I’ve never lost a fight yet. Get him!”
Five policeman held him while the small policeman beat him with a blackjack. A man walked by in civilian cloths and the man cried, “Help me!”
“Help? They don’t need any help. They’re doing a good job.” The chief of police laughed at his own joke.
The man became conscious while being put into a ‘restraining’ device. It had a crank that pulled him into a ball that tore the tendons in his knees and made breathing difficult. Ever now and then someone would say, “Have you learned your lesson yet?”
The ‘device’ made the other seem like a picnic, but he never said a word.
Every fifteen minutes, a medic would check him. After an ‘eternity’ the medic yelled, “Turn him loose; he’s about to die!”
His wife tried to locate him, but the police had no record. About ten that night, a doctor let him call her.
In his work cloths, they thought he was a bum, but he was chairman of the deacons and a twenty million dollar sport complex was named in his honor in Fairbanks, Alaska.
The only charge against him was ‘loitering’ which he paid. Colorado Springs now has video cameras and without the ‘torture device’.
I didn’t learn the story until three months later. I didn’t sleep for two days because the bum was my twin brother. Telling this still brought tears to my eyes.
That was one story that was hard to read. But I always learn from your stories, REX. L's
P.S. Did your brother ever recover from that assault?
Were the police punished?
THE 'TELLING'
101 years old,
Uncle Fountain Hughes' 'telling'
Fountain Hughes:
" I, uh, I remember when the Yankees come along and took all the good horses and took all the, throwed all the meat and flour and sugar and stuff out in the river and let it go down the river. And they knowed the people wouldn't have nothing to live on, but they done that. And that's the reason why I don't like to talk about it."
Them people, and, and if you was cooking anything to eat in there for yourself, and if they, they was hungry, they would go and eat it all up, and we didn't get nothing. They'd just come in and drink up all your milk, milk. Just do as they please. Sometimes they be passing by all night long, walking, muddy, raining."
" Oh, they had a terrible time. Colored people that's free ought to be awful thankful. And some of them is sorry they are free now. Some of them now would rather be slaves."
Hermond Norwood (interviewer):
"Which had you rather be Uncle Fountain?"
Fountain Hughes:
" Me? Which I'd rather be ?" [Norwood laughs]
"You know what I'd rather do?
If I thought, had any idea,
that I'd ever be a slave again, I'd take a gun and just end it all right away.
Because you're nothing but a dog.
You're not a thing but a dog.
Night never comed out, you had nothing to do. Time to cut tobacco, if they want you to cut all night long out in the field, you cut.
And if they want you to hang all night long, you hang, hang tobacco. It didn't matter about your tired, being tired.
You're afraid to say you're tired.
They just, well . . . ."
[voice trails off].
VOICES OF SLAVERY:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/collections/voices/vfssp.html
Here, you can read the full interview of Fountain Hughes and of other former slaves.
It is very painful reading.
But we learn.
Somehow it is right
that they should be heard.
Or how could we know? L's
L’s,
Nice of you to reply.
Yes, he recovered but it was three months before he could work again. It may have contributed to a knee replacement he had years later. The police were not punished.
Their friends warned he would be killed if they thought he could get them fired. With his wife close to a nervous breakdown, they sold their house and moved to another State.
Years later, some of the police were fired because of their public actions in a bar.
Last week he earned his money for substitute teaching in being called to break up a girl fight in high school.
Within a big circle of students, he saw a small Mexican on the floor as a large Black, in a rage, was about to do her in.
He asked a boy to help. They each got an arm and held her until Security came.
Wade,
Slander/defamation is a Christian virtue that you encourage at your church? If not maybe you out to practice church discipline.
Please see this comment on Dr Kear blog
Dr. Mike Kear said...
Rob,
This is a Christian blog and so we do not allow racism. I have deleted your comment for that reason.
Is that how you practice Grace Dr Kear?
Honestly I dont see much Grace in your original response.
If you had removed both my name and your comment then the I would not sent that email.
Instead you prefer the way of hate by leaving only your response.ie cyber-lynching.
notice that at NO time did I ask you to leave up my post!!!!!
Rob Masters
Hi REX RAY,
It's me, L's
Your brother's experience was horrible. (ripped tendons, awful)
LONG AGO and far away, when my husband was in the Navy, he brought a shipmate over to advise him on some electrical installations for our home.
This man brought his wife and I gave her coffee. A few nights later, the wife called our home and was crying and terrified. She begged us to come to where she was hiding in a laundromat because she said her husband was going to kill her. My husband was good enough to take the badly beaten woman to the clinic.
A few nights later, the HUSBAND calls threatening me and my husband. Our crime was helping his wife.
We LEARNED that the couple played this game out with a lot of people on the ship: beaten wife calling for help drama followed by threats to the rescuers from the husband.
The husband left the Navy and went SOMEWHERE to become a SHERIFF.
I was shocked because we knew him to be a very violent person. When I read your story, I thought of him. There must be some really bad apples out there.
Love, L's
P.S. 'girl fights in schools'
remind me someday to tell you the story of the 'Great Hair Fight' at our Middle School that is now part of the legends of the place. :)
Here's a hint: it took four male coaches and teachers to break the girls up; and there were 'extensions' (hair pieces) strewn down the main hall from the gym all the way to the office. What a day !
Working in schools these days can sometimes be exciting. :)
Rob.
Thanks for helping me make my point.
I should now re-post this as "If You're Racist, You're a Rob"
Seth Mcbee
http://contendearnestly.blogspot.com/
Thanks for pertuating Slander Seth.
I am sure you are proud Dr Kears
Rob Masters
Only by his grace said: "Calvinism, if not guarded, can lead into such narrow thinking that it debases the Gospel that it seeks to glorify."
As I understand it Calvinism cannot be narrowed nor carried to extremes. The sovereignty of God has no extreme, the ruin and fall of man cannot be carried any lower and neither can the redemption of Christ be anymore extreme. The blood is effectual to the uttermost.
Malcolm Yarnell seems to believe that there are extreme views. Historically there have been Manichaean views ie. two seeds in the Spirit but most of thoes groups have disappeared. Everyone fears hyper-Calvinism but noone can seem to point any people out who hold these views.
However Calvinism can be "guarded" and can lead to gospel debasing. Historically, the council of Dort was met by Amyraldism. It was an attempt to compromise with the remonstrants and Arminianism. There has been ongoing attempts to compromise Calvinism to this day. Many of todays "Calvinist" are really Arminians holding to four or less points of the TULIP. They are hypo-Calvinist and that is guarded Calvinism. Like Arminianism it "debases the gospel it seeks to glorify."
Watching His Story, can you please comment on this info below?
Thank you
"THE HIDDEN DOCTRINE
In the freer religious environment of the 1800s, Calvinism began to come under heavy and sustained attack from inside and outside the Protestant Churches. People accused it of being a cruel and unjust doctrine. The idea that God would create people, make them behave in a certain way, and then condemn them to everlasting torture for behaving in that way, was seen as being contrary to everything the Bible taught. Many denominations quietly dropped Calvinism at this time, and moved back towards Arminianism. The Church of England, and some national Reformed Churches did this. Other churches like the Congregational, Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian Churches split into Calvinist and Arminian branches. Others remained wholly Calvinist.
DECEPTION
However many Calvinist Churches began to hide their Calvinist doctrines from the majority of their Congregations. The doctrines were no longer preached to ordinary worshippers, although they were still held. This continues to this day. Calvinist doctrines on Election and the lack of Free Will are very hard to explain to modern believers, so many Calvinist Churches just don't bother. They hold evangelistic meetings and invite people to accept Jesus and "be saved" by Faith. They tell people that they are "saved" but fail to reveal the true Calvinist theology of the denomination, for fear this will frighten away new converts. For under Calvinist theology, the new converts' salvation is not as certain as they are told it is. This is a form of deception practised by many Calvinist groups, and it is often hard to find what the true beliefs of many Protestant groups are. If a church says it believes in Salvation by Grace Alone through Faith, it may well hold Calvinist beliefs.
SO WHAT'S WRONG WITH CALVINISM?
To many, Calvinism goes against the whole flow of New Testament teaching. It substitutes a vengeful, capricious and merciless God, for the loving Father of Jesus's teachings. The price paid for unravelling the tangled knot of Lutheran logic is too high. In order to avoid the need for Good Works, the Gospel has been distorted out of all recognition. Jesus's teachings make little sense under Calvinism, and make no sense at all if we do not have Free Will to act on them. In addition Calvinism has led to..
1. Fatalism. What is the point of evangelising, if it is already decided who is to be saved? Similarly, if a person is starving or in need, God has put him in that position, so there is no need to do anything about it.
2. A Tribal Consciousness. Groups and Nationalities began to see themselves as "Chosen by God". Other peoples, not being so "chosen", could be treated harshly. Calvinist groups are seen as exacerbating divisions in places like Ireland, the USA and South Africa. (See: By their Fruits)
WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE?
As already stated, Calvinism seems directly opposed to the whole tenor of Jesus's teaching on Good Works (See: Faith or Works) and Jesus's constant exhortations to us to make the right choices. Why should He have spent so much of his ministry on this sort of teaching if we did not have the Free Will to profit by it? This is one reason why Free Will has always been so important to the historic Church, and why our deeds, (or works) are vitally important.
We can see that the Bible also denies the idea of irresistible grace, showing that our Free Will does affect its action:
2 Cor 6: 1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. (NIV).
The Bible shows clearly that God wants everyone to be saved, and that He has not predestined anyone for damnation.
1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3; 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV).
1 John 2: 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV)."
I will follow Wade's good sense and not respond to anonymous comments.
However if you will give the source of your article I may comment, in fact I would like to.
Charles Page
Collierville, Tennessee
here are two articles that give both sides of the Council of Dort issue without the negative slant of anon's article.
http://www.chinstitute.org/DAILYF/2003/11/daily-11-13-2003.shtml
http://www.fredsbibletalk.com/fb012.html
I don't totally agree with Fred's article but it is a good start.
What was negative about 'anon's Bible quotes?
Can yu comment on those?
one anonymous asking me to comment on another anonymous quote.
This is confusing!
It's okay if you cannot comment.
Maybe you don't understand these verses. Just looking for help here. Sorry.
Oh, shame, shame, anon
You are using slycology on me. I detect insencerity!
If you have a Bible search for yourself! Don't expect me to find the truth for you.
Free-willers want to make God look anemic by willing what He can't have. He is forced to put up with His creatures unwillingness to cooperate with His desires. Otherwise God would be unrighteous and unfair.
We are not to let the Arminians who walk in their own contradictions over the waning years discourage us in believing that Christ will gather up all that the Father has given Him in the last days. Not a single one He died for will be lost. The world He died for is the ones believing in Him and they have everlasting life. All others are perishing.
Arminians are willingly ignorant of this truth. They become modern day scoffers who want believers to think that God has not included them because of their lack of faith or rather their kind of faith. They want to exclude you from the kingdom.
Blood stained garments will be worn in heaven. But not a drop of blood, not in the least will be found on a garment in hell.
WatchingHistory,
I am no what you call "free willer." I have stated repeated that I take a Calvinist approach in interpreting the five points of grace; however, I do not grovel at the feet of Reformed Theology or any other Systematic Theology. The Bible is my only ultimate rule of faith and practice. I believe there is nothing in human nature that anyone can polish up or reform to offer to God as acceptable to Him. I believe with my whole being I was "chosen in Him before the 'overthrow' of the world;'" I believe "you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you…" I believe if we can offer even one merit in thought, word or action or offer a billion of them to God in order to be accepted in the Beloved then it is no longer grace but works.
Having said that, Calvin takes the doctrines of grace and give them a twist that perverts them and against that "twist" we must guard ourselves constantly. The twist is that the Bible teaches "predestination" to Heaven, but no where does it teach "predestination" to Hell. To say that it is to the glory of God that He selects some to be in Hell as Calvin believed Hell as ending torture, is a perversity of the Scriptures. I know the logic of saying, "Well, if He predestined some to Heaven, then He must have predestined the others to Hell." Calvin says that; the Bible does not say that.
You know very well the anti-mission movement that dominated the eighteenth century and half of the nineteenth century which came from rabid Calvinist; yet I find it ironic that almost very great mission movement was led by a Calvinist: Knox, Whitfield, Edwards, G. Cambell Morgan, C.H. Spurgeon, R.A. Torrey, Epp, Ironside, D.G. Barnhouse, Billy Graham and so on. They had no hope in the flesh nor in Mosaic Law nor believed in this satanic double predestination.
But let us ask you the same question I asked Rob which he did not answer, "Are you a Christian Reconstructionist in the ilk of Rushdooney who would like to replace the United States Constitution with Mosaic Law.
Galatians 3:1-3.
"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ has been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
"This only would I learn of you, Received you the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
"Are you so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh?"
Phil in Norman
God doesn't 'pre-destine' anything.
God is eternal. He is outside of time as WE know it. To try to put God into a time-line like that won't work.
Eternity.
God's name is 'I AM'.
He is in the 'NOW' of eternity.
not I Was, I Am, I Will Be.
So to speak of God by putting Him into our little time boxes, is unusually 'human'. We simply don't relate to a Being outside of our concept of time.
Predestination is a man-made doctrine. It seeks to explain God in human terms. Won't work.
Makes no sense in the light of God's Eternal Presence.
Does God enter into our human time?
Yes. Interventions. Especially the one that mattered most:
'and the Word became Flesh and dwelt among us . . . '
Hi Phil,
How about this for some missionary reading.
www.southeastchristian.org/_libraryfiles/outlook/mission_to_cannibals.pdf
Its the story of my father/family
Slandering has a chilling effect on conversations.
Reason for my not answering your questions
Did you post as anonymous on Dr Kear blog.
Please dont participate in this Slanderfest with Seth McBee and Dr Kear
Rob
BTW Phil,
I did not say you were slandering...although I think Dr Kear is trying to take you in that direction.
Rob
Just a note about the topic. I am glad that some at NOBTS are not being laid off while the leadership spends money like drunken sailors.
At SBTS, at least 30 people have been laid off. Does everyone realize there is not even unemployment for these folks? Here we have men who have been taught that wives are not to work so they don't even have that to fall back on. And who can afford Cobra health insurance for a whole family? Many of these folks will lose their homes in this economy.
And this after spending millions on the campus face lift for the 150th anniversary.
Lydia
A NATION OF LAWS
The inauguration of Barack Obama represents a transition in government far more profound than any we've ever experienced before, because of both who he is and what he stands for.
On the issues, the change from former President George W. Bush (how sweet it is to write those words for the first time) to President Barack Obama (even sweeter!) is much more dramatic than the shifting hues of gray a new administration usually brings. The difference is as stark as night and day. With the stroke of noon on Jan. 20 - even before John Roberts bungled the oath of office, forcing Obama to take a mulligan the next day - we went from a president who launched an illegal war to one who would end it; from a president who ignored universal health care to one who would deliver it; from a president who denied the existence of global warming to one who would lead the fight against it.
Obama didn't mention Bush by name, but everybody knew whom he was talking about in his Inaugural address when he said that "without a watchful eye, the market can spin out of control." And when he declared: "Our time of standing pat, of protecting narrow interests and putting off unpleasant decisions - that time has surely passed." Our new president didn't wait long to show evidence of his determination to act.
On day one, President Obama moved to remove one of the worst scars from the face of America. He signed an order to suspend the kangaroo courts set up by the Bush administration at Guantanamo Bay, and to review the status of each of the 245 prisoners still being held there. The next day, he signed executive orders to close Gitmo within a year, to shut down what remains of the CIA's network of secret torture prisons around the world, and to ban the CIA's use of so-called "enhanced interrogation techniques," Dick Cheney's euphemism for torture.
Overnight, we went from a lawless nation back to a law-abiding one. That in itself is a tectonic shift.
A Nation of Laws
All of those things dont a hold a candle on the scale of evil to this which Obama has already started increasing.
http://www.blackgenocide.org/black.html
Rob
Rob,
Are you a disciple of Rushdooney and the reconstructionists.
We know about them: they are very evil.
What is evil, but the hate in men' hearts come alive in their actions.
That is evil.
LYDIA said,
'At SBTS, at least 30 people have been laid off. "
Well, maybe once P followed in the ways of the Lord. Maybe he will again, before he passes from this earth.
As for those laid off, they were the innocent victims of P's time in the Dark World, where Christ's light and compassion was not allowed to penetrate.
And so they suffer.
Adrian Rogers' widow abandoned her beloved Bellevue and influenced a lot of people to follow her lead. bellevue laos a lot of financial support in this and consequently a lot of common workers were laid off from the staff. Luckily no important people were let go!
Never underestimate what one person can do to affect a lot of people.
Seth McBee
Seth McBee said...
Mike.
No kidding...this guy is brutal and won't stop...now I have to delete another one where he acts like he is someone else. He will do anything to deceive people...He did the same thing at another site...
Oh well.
1/24/2009 08:58:00 AM
So now Iam a liar!!!!!
You might want to read the book Lords of the earth by Don Richardson
It is the story of my family.
www.southeastchristian.org/_libraryfiles/outlook/mission_to_cannibals.pdf
Rob
Rob, you are confusing us.
Are you the son of Robert I. Masters?
Who is causing you so much grief?
Please know that some of us think you are very young and we have great hopes for your well-being.
Are you okay? Do you need prayer?
anonymous
1. Cowardice is not a virtue...use your name
2. The answer to your question lies in a few posts earlier here.
3. I guess Wade must teach the doctrine of Slander at his Church there in Enid.
Please see Mike Kear's post
Grace is always extended to ....even to slanderers!
"A missionary who had a very sad life growing up...beat on by other children, hated by his father and then finding Christ."
Rob, is this what you wanted to share with us?
Don't be afraid. We will listen.
There are a lot of good Christians who blog here, and they are devoted to the Lord Christ.
I happen to know that people pray for each other here.
Please let us know so that we can understand and pray for you.
Rob, it sounds like you need to talk.
Love, L's
Phil
1037. "God predestines no one to go to hell;[Cf. Council of Orange II (529): DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.] for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want 'any to perish, but all to come to repentance':[2 Pet 3:9 .] Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen.[Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.]"
Centuries ago it was determined by Church canon that "God never predestines anyone to hell." Against the heresy of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism this issue was settled by Roman Catholics. This statement is a vital statement of their Catechism.
This belief was continued through the reformation. The language of Calvinism is that God actively participates in predestining the elect to heaven and reprobating the non-elect to hell. That is the reprobate are left to themselves to continue on in their own sinfulness and ruin. God does not participate actively in this but He leaves them, passes over them, to their own ruin.
The Catholics communion prayer is ..."Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen."
But deceptive preachers like John Rice and Adrian Rogers willfully deceived their followers into believing that Calvinist believe that God predestines men to hell.
Now there must be "rabid heretics" who believed this but it was not the Calvinist who opposed missionary societies of the eighteenth century.
In fact these rabid men were good Baptist who did not oppose evangelism nor missions but the organized missionary societies. Todays gross materialism and aquired wealth along with the abuse of authority that rose above Baptist autonomy is a hint to what they feared would come to pass. The battle Wade wages is connected somewhat to these embattled Baptist.
I have no idea what reconstructionism is nor who is Rushdooney.
Yes,
L,s I was raped by a Catholic priest in the jungles of Indonesia. Will you please
find the man and bring him to justice.
I think he was related to William P Young of "The Shack" fame.
Will you please put that evil man in jail...can you do that for me.
I think the idea that men should be celibate is so unnatural...dont you think.
They seem to always want to turn to little boys...right.
P. S This preceding story is brought to you by the wonderful imagination of L,s mind.ie hyperbole for all you Slycologist out there.
Rob
Dear Rob, sorry I offended you. L's
The comment I quoted was from a reader of that book you mentioned.
Oh dear. We won't communicate again. I can see I'm not helping.
L,s
Iam not really offended by you.
Just trying to use a little satire .....kinda like "In praise of Folly ".
You do realize that my last post was all untrue right!
The book is real though...Lords of the earth.
As are the Slander boys Mike and his cousin Seth!!!
Rob
I am still sorry, Rob.
Love, L's
From Seth Mcbee blog
Hey Rob the Racist: Come to my blog and post whatever you want...I won't delete it...but I will mock you like the trash you are...then I will write funny posts about how stupid you are and people will laugh, it will be a great time. It will be called mock the unregenrate racist...
D
Poopemerges.wordpress.com
Feel the love Dr Mike Kear and Seth Mcbee!!!!
As far as I could tell on the truth checkers this is true.
I hope this does not happen.
"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom.
What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it." (Dr. Adrian Rogers 1931 to 2005)
Adrian Rogers understood democracy, free markets economies, capitalism, Jewish-Christian work ethics, etc. but did not or would not understand sovereign grace.
He was a synergist who blended grace (what he believed it was) with works. That made him popular with Americans!
Rex
The beginning of a revolution and a new nation is when the lower half understand that there is more to life than the sum total of your possessions and wealth.
Real life is found by poor and meek people who are not hindered by the burden of riches.
Charles
Charles,
I like your “Real life is found by poor and meek people who are not hindered by the burden of riches.”
But I thought “the beginning of a revolution and a new nation [American Revolution] is when the” people wanted to keep more of what was theirs.
Rex
I did not have "American" revolution in mind (Lord only knows we don't need another one of those) I had in mind "selling what you have, giving all the proceeds to the poor and following Christ"
Charles
REX, very likely, during the last eight years OR MORE, some of your tax dollars ended up being paid while many of the companies in our country who got TAX BREAKS.
Rex, a LOT of those companies figured out that, if they fired their American employees, moved their equipment and operations overseas, the money would ROLL IN:
To their share-holders, to their CEO's. No 'trickle down' anymore.
And you helped. Although you didn't want to, or realize it at the time. Your tax dollars funded the 'breaks' for these creeps.
And some in your family may have lost their jobs as a result.
Whatever comes: let's hope our country stops the 'stupid' and starts the repair of our system to favor our own middle class and our working people: or else, it's all over for the middle class.
Don't feel sorry for the rich.
They scored big-time.
Start caring about the 'middle-class'.
As for 'the poor', when a crying child goes to bed hungry in this nation while a CEO uses a toilet that costs thirty-five thousand dollars, I know you have a problem with that. We all do.
At least, Rex, we CAN take care of our children in this country.
They need. . . and they can't fight against our lack of compassion.
They need . . . and some are too little to speak, to beg, or even ask.
They need . . . and we can't look away and blame them for being poor. They didn't cause this.
So, if Republicans cannot accept helping 'the poor' who 'refuse to work', I totally get it.
But, even Republicans, can reach down and pick up a child who is suffering and not feel that it destroys our 'capitalist' system.
Let's not have any more
American children in this country be so poor that they cry themselves to sleep in hunger and in sickness. We, as a nation, are better than that. We can fix that problem, if nothing more.
A great country's strength and honor is measured in how it treats its most vulnerable citizens: its children, its disabled, its retarded, NOT how it rewards its richest CEO's. Can you agree?
HOPEFUL
HOPEFUL,
I agree “the country’s strength and honor is measured in how it treats its most vulnerable citizens: its children, its disabled, its retarded…”
I would add one more: ‘Its unborn’.
As Lincoln said he cared not for a man’s religion if his dog was not the better for it; I care not for a BFM if women are not the better for it.
The current BF&M is a step backwards for the status of Baptist women, but ONLY if the husbands and wives agree to the nonsense. It is pure cultural tripe, nothing more.
SBC is TRYING to drive out as many believers as possible.
But WHY ?
Who stands to gain What?
The SBC is dying a not-so-slow death. And churches in our country are beginning to drop the word 'Baptist' from their names.
WHY ?
Maybe it is because of the poor treatment given to so many by the self-righteous. Not Christian.
Someone has got to turn this around. There is a heritage to protect. The only way a Christian organization can die is if it no longer points to Jesus.
"At least, Rex, we CAN take care of our children in this country."
Shouldn't that say, "At least, Rex, we CAN take care of our children in this country if we decide not to kill them while they are defenseless." ?
Just asking.
HOPEFUL
(for everyone, not just the poor.)
Have you ever seen a baby die because its parent didn't know to get it to the hospital, because the mother was thirteen years old and grandma worked nights?
Do you know what it means to shout out about the unborn and ignore the fate of the born?
When you give yourself to the care of the living children who suffer, then, and only then, can you speak for the welfare of the unborn with honest lips.
In the meantime, go back to your Bible, and your comfortable life , and let the rest of us on the front lines do what we can to save the children who live.
Or come join us. COME JOIN US.
We need you. THEY need you.
COME.
"I am thankful for a nation where people are now being judged on things other than the color of their skin."
You mean like their beliefs and personal opinions... instead of their actions?
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