Yesterday I received an email from a friend and denominational leader asking me a few questions about my views on "women in ministry." I took the time to respond to his questions with the following email. The person, who shall remain unnamed, had three questions in his email. (1). Could you give me your views on "women" pastors? (2). What are the reasons you are troubled by the proposed "disfellowship" of a church that has called a woman pastor? (3). Where can I learn more about this issue? My response, in full, is below.
Tuesday, January 27, 2009
Dear ________,
I hope you are staying warm and safe in this horrid cold and icy weather. I had every intention of driving to OKC to attend the Evangelism Conference Monday, but made the decision to stay in Enid and drive my wife to OKC Monday afternoon for her Master’s classes at the University of Oklahoma Nursing School. She is about a year away from graduating with a Master’s Degree in Clinical Nursing, and I did not want her to drive on the icy roads. I’m glad I made the decision to stay in Enid because it must have become really icy in OKC because OU called off school at noon and we ended up not coming down at all. I have not heard about the Evangelism Conference, but I do hope that things were able to be rescheduled.
I'm glad to hear you enjoyed my post on Union Mission. My research on Epaphras Chapman (1788-1825) and the first mission team to the Osage Indians gives me a deeper appreciation for the Osage tribe in Oklahoma. There is some great history among the people, even a great Christian history, and their story is not well known. Thanks for your prayers for the young man I mention in the blog post who is sick. So far it seems that doctors are optimistic about a full recovery.
I realize that Dr. Bob White (Executive Director of the Georgia Baptist Convention) may be a friend of yours, and I do apologize if my post has been an inconvenience to you in any way. Frankly, the last three years have tempered me. I no longer can remain silent when I see people, churches or missionaries publicly humiliated, as I believe FBC Decatur is now being shamed in the press. I well remember the vote in the Capital Association long ago over "disfellowshipping" a church because the church ordained a few "women" deacons. At the time, I was opposed to the Associaton's motion to "disfellowship" First Baptist Church, but since I was not a member of the Capital Association, I did not make my opposition to the motion known. I do appreciate the fact that you voted against excluding the church from fellowship, and I even more appreciate your reason for doing so – you did not see forbidding women serving as deacons as a “clear” truth. I would concur. In fact, when I read of deaconess Phoebe and other women who “served” the church in Scripture, I find it hard to wriggle out of the New Testament concept of women deacons.
I also appreciate that the issue of women pastors is not as “foggy” for you. Frankly, up until about five years ago, I would have said the same thing about women pastors. I was quite dogmatic myself. I felt that “liberals” and those who denied the inerrancy and infallibility of God’s Word were the only ones advocating women pastors. I have since learned that there are many solid conservative evangelicals who believe that the Bible, under no circumstances, prohibits a female from pastoring a church, and there are even a growing number of solid, conservative evangelical theologians who believe the sacred text advocates women are gifted to serve in all capacities within the church, even pastors. Some of these conservative Christians who believe women can serve as pastors, and who also hold to the inerrancy and infallibility of the Word of God, are men like John Zens (Are the Sisters Free to Function), theologian Dr. Gilbert Bilezikian (Beyond Sex Roles), and the ongoing ministry of Christians for Biblical Equality. CBE’s statement of faith on their website states the following about their belief in the Word of God:
We believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, is reliable, and is the final authority for faith and practice.
You observe about me in your email, “I sense an openness to a woman senior pastor in your comments.” I think that what you may be actually observing in my writing is an openness to listen to Christian people who believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, but who also argue, from the Scripture, that women can be serve the church as pastors. I personally hold to the complementarian approach at this time, but I am seeking to demonstrate, as you did years ago, that Christian people can disagree on issues that may not be as clear as some suggest.
More pointedly, I would like to make a prediction. History will one day look back on this issue of “women” pastors in the SBC as we now look back on slavery within our Convention. The equality of gender in terms of the pastorate is something that I believe can be competently argued for from Scripture, just it was argued by some Southern Baptists in the 1845’s that the Bible teaches racial equality, even though most Southern Baptists at the time believed slavery was condoned, even advocated in the Bible. There are many verses that speak of gender and racial equality within the New Covenant, and for some to argue that the pastor’s office should be barred from women, just as some Southern Baptists once argued that blacks should be barred from citizenship, church membership and church offices, seems to me to be a denial of the overall spirit of the New Covenant. Though I would not personally lead my church to call a woman senior pastor for cultural reasons, I do not see it as a “moral” issue, or a “liberal” issue as I once did. Thus, there should be no “disfellowship” from churches who choose to call a female pastor.
Let me be clear though. I am not advocating that a church should call a woman as pastor. Nor am I advocating that a church should always and only call a male pastor. I am simply open to the arguments on both sides. I see my brothers and sisters in Christ on the opposite spectrum of this issue being both Bible-believing followers of Christ who have simply reached different conclusions on this issue. Could I change my mind about women pastors? Yes. Will I change my mind about women pastors? I don’t now. Maybe. Maybe not. But what I am advocating is that we don’t automatically assume that people are “liberal” simply because they believe the Bible places no prohibition on women pastors are liberal. I will also pointedly oppose any action by any of our Southern Baptist state conventions or the national convention, to disfellowship from a church that has chosen to call a woman as a pastor.
Frankly, I want my name on the books on this one. I will not stand by and be silent. A few years ago I might have been silent because I was unaware of the biblical arguments from the other side. In fact, I thought that some were “denying” the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, and the end result was “women” pastors. I no longer think that way. I haven’t changed my mind on the issue, I just simply see evangelical, conservative Christians who disagree, and do not believe we should separate. There are good, godly men and women are on both sides of this issue. And I think that we should learn to cooperate.
The middle ground is to let churches be autonomous. Let those churches who wish to have a female as their pastor call one, and don’t make a move to disfellowship from them. Let those churches that wish to believe that the “office” of pastor is reserved for the male only, call only male pastors. But let’s learn how to cooperate as a Convention because we believe in the same Christ, the same gospel, the same Bible. I really think if we focused on evangelism and missions and all the things we had in common, we would have very little time to point our fingers at others and accuse them of “liberalism” or “heresy.”
Finally, you mention in your email -
“I realize your point is not so much the fact that Julie Pennington-Russell is the woman pastor but that if they [the Georgia Baptist Convention] are going to disfellowship the church then integrity for you would be to separate period.”
You are absolutely correct. Disfellowship is to undo the “koinonia.” It is to say, “We have nothing in common.” Yet, Dr. White privately told Pennington-Russell that he would come to her church and help them when the Holy Spirit moved on the church and people were being “saved.” If you are going to say that FBC has nothing in common with the Georgia Baptist Convention, then the leader of the Georgia Baptist Convention had better make no such private, personal promise unless he intends to stand by it – which means then that he should FIGHT against the disfellowship because he believes he has something in common with FBC Decatur.
Bottom line, Southern Baptists too often pronounce judgment and condemnation before we dialogue, reflect and consider the consequences of our anathemas. I am simply asking for dialogue, patience and Christian grace. Let’s cooperate, not separate. We unite because of Christ and the glorious gospel, and we fund our kingdom work through the Cooperative Program. If we keep moving down the line toward of disfellowshipping from churches that interpret the Bible different than we do, then we ought to change the Cooperative Program’s name to the Conformity Program. If we don’t stop the nonsense of narrower and narrower parameters of fellowship and cooperation, then pretty soon the SBC will be the size of a mega church and not the largest Protestant denomination in the western world.
I, too, am sad about having to report on the sad state of a sister Southern Baptist Church. However, it is necessary. Nobody would ever grasp the inconsistencies of a Convention disfellowshipping from a church over who is called as their pastor unless I was specific. A Baptist convention can’t “disfellowship” churches for calling a pastor who doesn’t meet one of our interpretative qualifications for pastors (male) without “disfellowshipping” from other churches who call pastors who don’t meet even clearer biblical qualifications for pastors (gentleness, self-discipline, etc . . . ), or we display an extraordinary inconsistency. Of course, the answer to the dilemma is to be consistent in letting autonomous churches practice their autonomy and quit interfering. That’s the Baptist way.
I hope this email clarifies what I am thinking. I am hopeful that you will see the value of not ending up on the wrong side of this issue of women pastors. The wrong side is not complementarian or egalitarian. The wrong side is demanding that churches, of which you and I are not members, be either one or the other.
In His Grace,
Wade
261 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 261 of 261I think Jon is hiding. He has a congregation with some badly misbehaving 'goats'. The congregation is not all goats, but the ones he has are very troublesome. Pray for Jon.
No pastor deserves goats like that.
Charles,
No hiding. I put it the way I do at times just so the picture isn't there. But if you like to look at me, let me know.
Anon,
No bad goats here, just a few wayward sheep. But beginnings of revival are evident and souls are being saved... i.e.
4, African American men from neighborhood got saved two Wednesdays ago in our after church community pick-up basketball ministry. Follow up is scheduled for Tuesday.
1, 10 year old girl got saved as one of our families were taking her home from church this past Wednesday night.
A mother got saved a few weeks ago and her husband recommitted his life. God has brought them into the church.
A 50 year old single African American man got saved 4 weeks ago and is now part of the church family.
No hiding from me Anonymous.We(including yourself) can't say the same thing for you though, right.
Jon,
I agree with your assessment. I have no sympathy, nor admiration, for the anonymous commenter. Sign your name.
First
I was asked to leave because people were being saved.
then
But beginnings of revival are evident and souls are being saved...
Uh oh....yer days there may be numbered Jon ol' boy.
And we needed to know that they were "African American" why?
Dear oc,
Why not?
Is it something to be ashamed of?
When so many Southern Baptists huddle in 'white' churches?
I'm proud of Jon. He is obviously on the right track, or the Spirit would not be moving in his church.
And those goats are 'gone', hopefully never to return.
I, TOO, SING AMERICA
by Langston Hughes, 1945
I, too, sing America.
I am the darker brother.
They send me to eat in the kitchen,
When the company comes,
But I laugh,
And eat well,
And grow strong.
Tomorrow,
I'll be at the table
When company comes.
Nobody'll dare
Say to me,
"Eat in the kitchen."
Then.
Besides,
They'll see how beautiful I am
And be ashamed -
I, too, am America.
Anon 1:15,
A person's race is supposed to irrelevant, just like your name is.
Just a word about the husband of the woman who got saved. He comes from a heritage of baptist pastors, up north, been out of church for over a decade. We gave him a new bible (and her, as we do with all new believers) and just now he was sharing how God is speaking to him in his reading.
He is a fabricator for Roush / Fenway Racing. Working hard in a tough atmosphere. Top in his field, he was one of about 9 kept of the 50 total fabricators where cutbacks have been made.
I will be pulling for Carl Edwards this year to support him and the work he does.
He is my assistant coach for our Upward Team (2-3 grade girls). He will be leading the devotions next week and leading children's church tomorrow with his wife.
He has not missed SS except for Christmas when they wen to home for the holiday.
He has promised to be on our FAITH teams this fall, as work load right now would prevent his being there on a regular basis.
Think about it, a long time Christian MIA, gets right with God, is studying the bible daily, involving himself in productive ministry, taking on small leadership roles, wanting to be a part of our soul-winning force and a part of a NASCAR team to boot.
It is amazing how much God will do if we will just go in His name and share Jesus.
Side note: We gave their three kids a free ride with UPWARD scholarships to help them be able to be involved.
This is just one of many things happening.
Go NASCAR...
COLORS
Trauma nurses in Iraq will tell you that black soldiers and white soldiers all bleed good red American blood, so that idiots here can have the FREEDOM mouth off in support of racism.
Enjoy your freedom. It was painfully bought for you by our brave American soldiers: of all colors.
What color was he Jon?
Native,
Two different churches, if you re-read the post about when I was asked to leave I referenced that it was a previous pastorate.
We stayed and God moved. The church became a true NT church. Great testimony about God's greatness. May share it one day with those who truly desire to know and not be cynical.
OC, Why do you want to know?
Come on Jon, if he's employed by Roush or NASCAR his kids don't need any kind of "scholarships", and he can also afford a Bible. This story is getting a little self-serving, don't you think? Maybe you should be thinking about the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Know what I mean?
Two different churches, if you re-read the post about when I was asked to leave I referenced that it was a previous pastorate.
I know that. I may talk funny but I can read. Ya missed tha point.
OC,
Tell me, how much does a fabricator at R/F make? I think it would be safe to say many make good money but not all.
Nothing self serving about praising God for his handiwork but I admit you frequent a few blogs which are weary of the pastors and question the motives of all they do.
You can have the last word, I'd rather get back to the topic and thank God for His saving grace, in my life and others.
Native,
Yup, missed the point...
Still do.
It's okay Jon. I think everone else got it. Ya go think about it a spell. Here's a hint: If ya was fired from yer last church for people gittin' saved then ya might be in danger of that agin if it starts happenin' in yer current church. I's heard of preachers gittin' let go for all sorts of thangs but soul-winnin' ain't one of 'em.
Jon,
How much does a fabricator at Roush make? Probably much more than you do, and I would be upset if I were you, because of the disparity in salary regarding the same talents. Both of you are fabricators. But at least he does it honestly.
Get real, Jon, remember you are talking to adults here.
Athough you have given me no reason why I should, yet I will trust your word that I have the last word. Here it is. You lie.
Arky,
I too was wondering why no one said a word to self-inflated ego about being fired for "soul winning". Everyone here on this blog went silent. Gave him a pass. I guess it was a "pastor" pass.
But some stuff doesn't make sense, huh?
I reckon some stuff ain't true and more than NASCAR fabrication is a happnin'?
Who would fire a pastor who is so competent to express the Gospel in a way to bring souls into Heaven?
Would you fire him for that?
Do you even know one church in the whole wide world who has done that? Doesn't make sense, does it?
Native,
Let me apologize if what I wrote earlier came across as I got fired. I did not, the church divided and we kept winning souls. The church became a NT church in every sense.
They are still a strong NT church in a pioneer mission area, still winning souls. PTL!
Wade,
With your way of Thinking, Believing and that of some of your followers, these things of Culture Changes will continue to include Same Sex Marriage as well as Woman Pastors/Elders!!!
Wayne
Your attempt at mitigating the damages by using the excuse of "coming across wrong" isn't quite working. And don't try to cover up by using and alluding to what the Lord has done in spite of you.
No, I think the proper confession would be "forgive me for lying".
oc.
With your way of Thinking, Believing and that of some of your followers, these things of Culture Changes will continue to include Same Sex Marriage as well as Woman Pastors/Elders!!!
Wayne
Sat Jan 31, 05:21:00 PM 2009
Wayne, Do you keep this comment on your clipboard?
Funny you mention culture. Homosexuality is quite prevalent in Patriarchal cultures and has been for centuries.
To try and connect homosexual dots woman minister dots is a strawman.
You would first need to explain the homosexuality of Patriarchal cultures where woman are wearing burkas.
I think some of you young boys cannot think past the 60's and believe this particular cultural sickness started at that time. But then, that is what you have been taught and all you know.
Lydia
Native,
It's okay Jon. I think everone else got it. Ya go think about it a spell. Here's a hint: If ya was fired from yer last church for people gittin' saved then ya might be in danger of that agin if it starts happenin' in yer current church. I's heard of preachers gittin' let go for all sorts of thangs but soul-winnin' ain't one of 'em.
Sat Jan 31, 03:22:00 PM 2009
Let me encourage you to go to a blog I started last November as a ministry. I have not posted there in a while but I give a fuller account of the happenings to which I speak.
Just for clarification.
http://ministersousted.blogspot.com/
I don't know how to do a blue clickie so if you don't mind cutting and pasting--- thanks.
Hey oc,
A man who slanders another man:
it is like someone who stands in Jerusalem and kills in Rome.
Slandering another's good name is a kind of murder.
Thank you anon. You might want to pass that on to Jon.
PS.
Even if the truth isn't pretty, even if it's ugly, it's still not slander.
Got me on a technikality there Jon. I'll resay it...
If ya was almost fired from yer last church for people gittin' saved then ya might be in danger of that agin if it starts happenin' in yer current church.
Well, over 200 comments and no solution yet (even Google semms to have a limit to comments), not even close! Is this an indication that the Holy spirit has departed from many of you and you are left to your own devices to understand?
"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."
Charles Page
Native,
I wasn't trying to be obstinate, really. I simply wanted to be clear about what happened.
Thanks for your heart.
jle
Dodge it as you will, you really aren't making it clear. So if you want to make it clear, what really happened? Here's your chance. You got almost got fired for ...what???
It seems that oc and NA are collaborators together. They both have a connection to NBBCOF and maybe a hint as to the anonymous who calls me a closet homosexual.
Hopefully I am getting closer.
Listen Charles,
I don't know the NA dude you are speaking of, and if I wanted to call you a closet homosexual, I would do it right out here in front of everyone. I HAVE NEVER IN MY LIFE POSTED AS 'ANON'. Get over the paranoia. I'm sick of you pulling my name up whenever your panties get twisted in a wad. If I'm going to call you a homosexual offender, or any other kind of idiot, I will do so under the name of oc. Have that confidence.
oc.
OK, since it is not you it must be GMOMMY or NASS.
There is a strong proximity to you all and my hunch is getting warmer.
Lydia,
You are one of those hiding in the closet as Anonymous, my comment was addressed to WADE, WHO HAS JUST COME OUT OF THE CLOSET ON WOMEN IN THE CHURCH AS PASTOR.
Wayne
WADE,
With your way of Thinking, Believing and that of some of your followers, these things of Culture Changes will continue to include Same Sex Marriage as well as Woman Pastors/Elders!!!
Wayne
Sat Jan 31, 05:21:00 PM 2009
Wayne, Do you keep this comment on your clipboard?
Funny you mention culture. Homosexuality is quite prevalent in Patriarchal cultures and has been for centuries.
To try and connect homosexual dots woman minister dots is a strawman.
You would first need to explain the homosexuality of Patriarchal cultures where woman are wearing burkas.
I think some of you young boys cannot think past the 60's and believe this particular cultural sickness started at that time. But then, that is what you have been taught and all you know.
Lydia
OK, since it is not you it must be GMOMMY or NASS.
There is a strong proximity to you all and my hunch is getting warmer.
Sat Jan 31, 08:19:00 PM 2009
Your "hunching" is exactly what a dog does. I slap mine whenever he does it. Just sayin'.
oc.
gentlemen,
Out of respect for the coming Sabbath, you all need to stop
being so destructive.
Alright anon. I just transfer him to your leg. Now it's your problem.
May your leg remain dry.
"You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you."
Keep on a hunchin' chuck, your sin will one day find you out. Don't leave your substance on the pant leg of another.
oc.
oc
Gender: Male
Industry: Non-Profit
Occupation: counselor
Location: United States
About Me
Need to be more like Jesus. A work in progress.
Favorite Books
There are 66.
COMMENT: oc, are you inebriated or just out-of-control ?
Get yourself cleaned-up, dude,
you shame yourself acting like this and pretending to be a Christian.
TO NEW BBC FORUM:
" Remember that whatever you write here could ultimately be read by the world, so please consider your words carefully before you hit "Publish."
You need to take your own advice.
Both you and Charles are using Wade's blog to battle it out. Someone has been harassing Charles badly, he re-acted which is just what they wanted him to do, and now they are trying to complete their harassment totally.
You are acting like high-schoolers with nothing better to do. But the result may be more damage than you intended.
This should stop, before
it reaches that point.
Wade, I have re-re-re-re-re-re-read your post and but down my "dander". This is not a subject I have lightly considered. I have studied or years on women in the scripture and the Lord's teachings on how to serve him as a believer who is female. My heart cannot be swayed by the new thoughts concerning Female Pastors. Once again I am taught by your gracious, compassionate heart and do humbly ask your forgiveness for my harshness of post. I have read all of the posts places and this subject and forum definitely exposes our hearts by our words. Thanks for still being a good teacher. I may or may not change my belief on this subject but I will be more gracious to my brother I disagree with. People who do not even know me have said some hurtful things. That should be another topic...oh wait...you have a whole series on the "tongue" don't you?? Maybe you need to add one about the "fingers on a key board". Blessings brother Wade.
Wade, the re--re--re--read post was mine i messed up the heading OOPS!!
Pege' Rogers
Wade, Please Tell Rachel she is my
HERO!!!! What an amazing woman she is and she getting a Masters. I am a member of her fan club and will pray for her as she finishes her studies. Give her a HUG from me!!
Anon 9:48,
yeah, I expected incoming, especially from the tree that does not branch.
God protect us from these idiots.
oc.
It takes one to know one.
Guess we're getting a big dose of that from you big old anon. Nice testicular fortitude, sweetheart.
oc.
"You are one of those hiding in the closet as Anonymous, my comment was addressed to WADE, WHO HAS JUST COME OUT OF THE CLOSET ON WOMEN IN THE CHURCH AS PASTOR."
Wayne,
A friend of ours was stalked after blogging on a 'christian' site and it was a very harrowing experience. Some folks take disagreement quite personally.
My husband travels out of the country quite a bit and the only thing he asks of me is to not have a tracable profile (or whatever those thingies are)
I hope,since you are a complimentarian/patriarch type, that you would understand that sometimes women who are single or are alone at times would prefer not to divulge too much personal information. I know my Christian egal brothers are quite understanding in that respect.
Lydia
"You are one of those hiding in the closet as Anonymous, my comment was addressed to WADE, WHO HAS JUST COME OUT OF THE CLOSET ON WOMEN IN THE CHURCH AS PASTOR."
BTW: Do you shout a lot?
Lydia
anon
You are correct, we are acting childish. You must understand that I am dealing with the "disciples" of Adrian Rogers and their conduct is being revealed for all to observe.
NASS: You couldn't be more wrong about me. I was the quietest boy in class. You could not get me to participate in any discussions. I was bashful and fearful. I was hit in the face with a pie, publicly assaulted in front of a crowd of people.
My greatest treasure apart from Christ is my family, wife, daughter, son-in-laws and four wonderful grandchildren and a grandson due this month. Your assumptions that I am potentially a pedophile hurts. The Holy Spirit stands close by and helps me bear this.
However you are right that I am trying to get attention. God has given me an awsome assignment and it nessitates me using "means" to achieve that end. (My hypo-Calvinist and Arminian friends will understand "means") I an trying to reach the church at any cost. I am throwing out the lifeline. Christians are slipping away into judgment. The Holy Spirit has revealed to me the severity of this.
Wade: I humbly request that NASS apology for these words: " My opinion, if you'd really like to know, is you're a pervert with an unhealthy fascination with homosexual behavior and pedophilia and a personal vendetta against Dr. and Mrs. Rogers." On her blog her opinions are "facts" by her sheep. Wade, every word of her opinion is false, every word. I am the sourse.
If she doesn't apologize then I request her comment be deleted but she should not be banned.
You have previously deleted me and I have understood your reasons why. I am sorry that your blog is the ground of this struggle.
I know that you don't appreciate people making demands of you on your own blog. I have my blog and believe me I understand people can demand things from you to line up with their thinking.
No one should apologize for the truth.
oc
but if it is a lie, should they apologize or will they just justify the lie?
Charles
Anon Jan 31, 9:55 PM....
You have NO idea what you are saying.
Charles,
I defer to your expertise.
thank you, oc
Charles
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