As I was reviewing some files I collected earlier in 2008, I came across this New York Times article regarding Russia's recent crackdown on dissidents:"Behind a facade of democracy lies a centralized authority that has deployed a nationwide cadre of loyalists that is not reluctant to swat down those who challenge the ruling party. Fearing such retribution, many of the people interviewed for this article asked not to be identified."
I am reminded that there is a mile wide difference between what a government, an institution, or a denomination says, and what it does. May we Southern Baptists match our words of soul freedom and religious liberty with actions that match our words. Interesting enough, the article was sent me by a SBC missionary who asked if the reporter was referring to Russia or our Convention.
If you have a hard time understanding the missionary's question, maybe you have never been on the dissenting side of an issue within the SBC.
In His Grace,
Wade
47 comments:
I do not know much of anything of SBC and it's politics.
I have an observation to make, based on what's happened/happening in Russia (Soviet Union), Eastern Europe, China, India, Pakistan, US (after 9/11), China-US Economic Linkage or the current US Economic Crisis: When there is no free exchange of ideas, give and take of power, respect for dissent, tolerance of questioning, these large scale systems behave very much like earth plate tectonics. There is a very slow perceptible movement that is very glacial in its pace, but suddenly it lurches to attain equilibrium or a more stable state.
Yes, economic crisis are all related to openness, transparency, tolerance of ideas and questioning.
In the end, you can not stop dissent or questioning. It will effect change one way or the other.
We've all been on the side of dissent at one point or another. It's natural. It's just that some of us try to implement change through constructive means and some of us do not. You are on the side of 'not', and that's really too bad because you could do so much more if you were not so negative and attacking in the past. You've truly lost a lot of credibility within the convention. We had hoped you would help us change things, but you went too negative.
Anonymous said:
"You've truly lost a lot of credibility within the convention. We had hoped you would help us change things, but you went too negative."
I couldn't disagree more with "Anonymous". I never take comments shared in anonymity very seriously, and Anonymous should take ownership of his words.
Wade provides a voice for those who have been silenced like me, and I believe he speaks for the silent majority in the SBC.
Wade,
I have lived in a country where the centralized authority was similar to that in Russia. There was a centralized authority that controlled everything, especially information. I have thought several times of some similarities with that authoritarian control and what we have seen in our convention. For example, one of the priorities for Pressler and his followers was to take control of Baptist Press.
As far as the “nationwide cadre of loyalists that was prepared to swat down those who challenge the ruling party,” in my home state of Arkansas at one time there was a network of loyalists with at least one in each association assigned to work with the pastors and one with the lay people. Then there was a district leader over several associations to receive the reports from the associational cadre. The district leader then reported to the state leaders. These men in the association would report names of those who could be counted on to be loyal to the CR organization and those who were not on board. From this report it was decided who was worthy to serve on SBC trustee boards and other convention appointed positions. It also allowed them to know who to keep off boards and to be prepared to call them liberals if necessary. They were also let people know who they were to vote for and get out the vote at the state and national conventions.
Actually Wade, you did not even have to be a dissenter to be considered dangerous. If you were not actively supporting the CR organization and calling those outside the organization liberals, you were under suspicion for not being sufficiently conservative.
The greatest sin would be to support an SBC presidential candidate not endorsed by the CR leadership. For example, Winfred Moore and Richard Jackson were strong theological conservatives who would have appointed conservatives to positions of responsibility in our convention. However, if you dared to vote for either of these men you were anathema to the CR organization. That is why I have always said, even though for some individuals such as CB Scott the issue may have been theology, for the CR organization the issue has always been power and control.
Ron West
Just a thought from an observor:
The Republican Party used the mantle of 'conservative' until the Bush Administration wo completely departed from anything 'conservative' as to destroy the meaning of the term.
Many truly 'conservative' Republicans were outraged by the lack of fiscal responsibility practiced by the Bush Administration.
The history of the Baptist people enjoyed a concept of 'soul freedom' and religious liberty which was valued enough to celebrate as a part of TRUE Baptist 'identity' for generations.
That is, until Pressler decided to 'take over'. Like Bush, Pressler and his cohorts used the term 'conservative' but they were very RADICAL about changes that they made in the SBC.
They have abandoned much of what was originally valued in the Baptist faith and proceeded to DIVIDE, CONTROL, EXCLUDE, INTIMIDATE, and UNDERMINE much of what was originally prized.
The best face you could put on what they did was that it was an OVER-REACTION to some fears people had about 'progressive' ideas in the church. The problem is, it looks much more like they TOOK ADVANTAGE of people's concerns about 'progressive' ideas to put into place extreme 'reactionary' practices that caused harm and excused this as 'the ends justify the means'.
CONSERVATIVE RESURGENCE?
No. It wasn't a resurgence of what 'used to be' at all.
It was a power grab by extremists: taking over the 'press', the missions institutions, the seminaries, and even changing the BF&M.
Nothing 'conserved' of the old concepts of 'soul freedom' and religious liberty. No.
". . . Fearing such retribution, many of the people interviewed for this article asked not to be identified . . ."
Same with folks posting comments at this blogsite for 2-3 years. "Deep Throat," who died recenlty, reported anonymously--but, apparently, not incorrectly.
When people MUST speak ANONYMOUSLY, or remain silent,
then you know you have a REAL problem with the SBC.
Looks like a pretty sick environment.
To the first anonymous above.
There is a difference between telling the truth and "going negative." If the truth portrays a negative occurance then I agree with your assessment.
Blessings,
Wade
I have a hard time with anyone who would make the comparison between the SBC and the Russian government or the previous Soviet governments.
It's not that similar issues aren't raised in all different types of human endeavor. Thus, one could compare the Russian government's behavior to an overly aggressive teacher or mother.
But the problem here is in the failure to distinguish context and degree. For example, it cheapens so many things to call people "Nazis".
That's my problem with all these comparisons, and I hope the missionary, however hurt he or she may be, might stop resorting to "over the top" comparisons.
Every analogy or comparison can be stretched across Texas, but not every analogy or comparison should be.
Louis
Council For National Policy (CNP)
| Founded By:
| Tim LaHaye
| T. Cullen Davis
| Nelson Bunker Hunt
| Executive Committee:
| Holly Coors
| Paul Weyrich
| Edwin Feulner
| Oliver North
|Board of Directors includes or has included:
| Richard Shoff
| Don McAlvany
| James McClellan
| Ben Blackburn
| R. J. Rushdoony
| Gary North
| Don Wildmon
| Phyllis Schlafly
| Robert Grant
| Jerry Falwell
| Morton Blackwell
| Richard DeVos
| Louis Jenkins
| Robert H. Krieble
| John D. Beckett
|Membership includes or has included:
| JUDGE PAUL PRESSLER , Houston, Texas
| Ed Young, Pastor Second Baptist Church, Houston, Texas
Roger Pearson was a writer and organizer for the Nazi Northern League of northern Europe, who in 1977 joined the editorial board of Policy Review, the monthly Heritage Foundation publication. William Shockley, Arthur Jensen and Roger Pearson, who has written that "inferior races" should be "exterminated" were funded while CNP's Tom Ellis. was director on the Pioneer board. At that same time, Ellis served on the CNP's thirteen-member executive committee with Holly Coors, Paul Weyrich, and Heritage Foundation president, Edwin Feulner until June 1989. Oliver North and Reed Larson also joined the executive committee.
What strange webs for ourselves we weave when first we practice to deceive.
CNP's connections to neo-Nazism can be tracked.
CNP boasts Judge Pressler as a former member.
Connect the dots.
Or not.
Occupying a position in McAteer's Religious Roundtable, 33ยบ Mason Jesse Helms was also a key figure in founding the CNP. With his top aide, attorney Tom Ellis, Helms had put together a national political machine that was unprecedented for the ultra-right. Tom Ellis -- who directed the agency which funded racial science for the purpose of eliminating inferior races -- was president of the CNP after Tim LaHaye.
"Tom Ellis was former director of the Pioneer Fund, a foundation which finances efforts to prove that African-Americans are genetically inferior to whites. Recipients of Pioneer grants have included William Shockley, Arthur Jensen and Roger Pearson, who has written that 'inferior races' should be 'exterminated.' All three and others were funded during Ellis' directorship on the Pioneer board. Yet Ellis served on the CNP's thirteen-member executive committee with Holly Coors, Paul Weyrich, and Heritage Foundation president, Edwin Feulner until June 1989. Oliver North and Reed Larson recently joined the executive committee." .
'inferior races should be exterminated'? Getting 'Nazi' enough for you, yet?
CNP is blatantly un-American.
What was Judge Pressler doing as a member?
How did his association with this group affect his treatment of SBC members who would not 'conform'?
Strange connections for sure.
It's the lesser-known CNP mainstays that are more indicative of the organization's politics. They include:
Richard Shoff, a former Ku Klux Klan leader in Indiana.
John McGoff, an ardent supporter of the former apartheid South African regime.
R.J. Rushdoony, the theological leader of America's "Christian Reconstruction" movement, which advocates that Christian fundamentalists take "dominion" over America by ABOLISHING DEMOCRACY and instituting Old Testament Law. Rushdoony's Reconstructionalists believe that "homosexuals . . . adulterers , blasphemers, astrologers and others will be EXECUTED," along with disobedient children.
Reed Larson, head of anti-union National Right to Work Committee.
Don Wildmon, TV censorship activist and accused anti-Semite.
Lieutenant-Colonel Oliver North, Major General John K. Singlaub and other principals from the Iran-Contra Scandal.
Investigative reporter Russ Bellant, author of OLD NAZIS, THE NEW RIGHT AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY;THE RELIGIOUS MOVEMENT IN MICHIGAN POLITICS; and THE COORS CONNECTION, told the Free Press that the "membership of the Council comprises the elite of the radical right in America."
How did Judge Pressler's association with the CNP influence his 'restructuring' of the SBC?
Tactics?
Philosophy?
How much of the SBC power structure now exists in the shadow of the CNP?
Wanda said...
I never take comments shared in anonymity very seriously, and Anonymous should take ownership of his words.
Good thing there is only one "Wanda" in the world so we all know who's talking!
:)
Sometimes the message is more important than the messenger.
What a clever comment Pot, meet Kettle!
So far there has only been one "Wanda" who posts on Wade's blog, and it has consistently been yours truly.
Thanks for reading my comment!
It's interesting that the Council for National Policy has been mentioned here. I investigated the CNP a few months ago and came across membership directories from the 1990s.
Anonymous has provided a list of some CNP members. The names that caught my attention were Howard Phillips, founder of the Constitution Party, and Paige Patterson. Check these membership lists out for yourself at this link:
www.seekgod.ca/cnp.htm
When I researched the Constitution Party, I learned quite a bit about "Dominionism". I believe we are only touching the tip of the iceberg.
Wade,
Your readership seems to be heavy on the end of conspiracy theorists! And a lot of anonymous ones at that!
But you are right about the importance of valuing a certain amount of dissent.
The important thing is not to discount the influence that an organization 'like' the CNP may have had on the 'conservative resurgence'.
Pressler was a member of an extremist group.
He led the SBC into deep extremist waters and many innocents drowned.
Good idea to take a look at the 'beliefs' that underpin such extremism, if you are going to hand the SBC over to these extremists.
Think 'motives', direction, political influence, and always, always look at what is happening to the money.
If no significant connections exist, then a close examination will harm nothing.
If 'insiders' resist a close examination, you have good reason to continue investigating all leads.
What was the connection of Pressler to the extreme right wing entities represented in the power-house known as the CNP?
How has the SBC been changed to conform to the philosophies represented by the CNP?
Won't hurt to take a really good look. And to note who is in opposition of a focused examination.
Sometimes the massage is more impotant than the massager.
http://www.policycounsel.org/4436.html
Here is a link to CNP's site. YOu can check out all the speakers for the last 6 years. That is quite a 'neo-Nazi' line up. Does Bobby Jindel get invited to speak to neo-Nazi's? John McCain? (A very liberal republican)
Seriously, this is not half as interesting as Obama's ties to Bill Ayers, former Weatherman terrorist. Or Jeremiah Wright who preaches Marxist Liberation Theology. Or his personal and physical support of Kenya's Odinga for President who promised to initiate Sharia law in Kenya. Or, the fact that Obama's brother lives in a slum in Nairobi even though Obama made 4 mill of his book. Or his poor immigrant aunt living in poverty in Boston.
Anonymous: In your list I noticed the name of T. Cullen Davis. He was convicted for brutally murdering his wife and stepdaughter several years ago. A very high profile case. Interesting that he would be one of the founders of this organization.
Take a look at the HISTORY of CNP.
You can put lipstick on a pig, it is still a pig.
Too many associations are on record for Jindal or McCain to clean up the reputation of this crew.
Why was Pressler a member?
What influences did he bring into the SBC from the CNP?
How has the SBC been changed to line up with CNP goals, thanks to Pressler and his cohorts?
Thanks for the heads-up on Jindal's involvement.
McCain showed some interesting alliances before and during his campaign.
Didn't help him, did it?
Judge Paul Pressler -
CNP President Executive Committee 1988-90
More than 'just a member' . . .
If you want to compare Russia to something, compare it to what is coming down the Pike under Barack Hussein Obama starting with the "Fairness Doctrine," soon to be followed by expanded "hate crimes" laws which may, or may not, stifle some of the folks here.
Jesse, are you suggesting that the 'expanded' hate crimes laws will curb the SBC's treatment of its employees, particularly female ones? A hate crime, after all, is when a 'group' is targeted for ill-treatment.
Surely Obama has bigger fish to fry than an out-of-control bunch of fundamentalists who have formed a circular firing-squad.
I think the American people will let the SBC stew in its own juice, hate-crimes or not.
What the SBC has sown, it now must reap. But don't think that the SBC is a 'top priority' with the American people. It's not.
Don't worry, the Dems won't kick the evangelicals to the curb;
the evangelicals are doing a pretty good job of kicking each other to the curb and out of the way of the needs of our citizens. Shame about how the SBC wants to treat women though, isn't it?
Anony:
It is good that you recognize the conspiratorial energies of many people on this blog.
You probably did not realize it, but a layman from Houston gets involved in expressing his concerns about a denomination that is run democratically. And, amazingly, contrary to entrenched denominational interests and the denoninational press, he rallies fellow believers in his denomination to bring about changes democratically over about at 10 to 15 year period.
And there is a rush to connect all of this to some organization whose purpose is apparently unrelated to the SBC and whose actual purpose is still a little fuzzy. But it makes for a great story.
It's not surprising that some people would be upset about this. There are, after all, supposed to be 16 million people in the SBC. So, a good number did not like the changes, and can never bring themselves to a place of peace about what has happened.
But it is surprising that if one throws out the bait, that the "Nazi" talk actually gets some traction.
You are right to note that this is a strange phenomenon.
I have to get back to my short waive radio. We are waiting for our coded messages in a joint broadcast from Judge Pressler and Hitler (he isn't really dead, you know).
Louis
Louis,
When they start rounding up all the undesirables in the SBC and sending them off to reeducation camps… you will hang your head in shame for your willful complicity in this cleansing of the SBC orchestrated by those Neo-Landmark, Spooky Fundamentalist, Baptist Identity guys over at SBC Today. (wink, wink)
Grace Always,
Re-education?
How did Pressler and cohorts influence the seminaries?
Getting rid of professors?
Rounding up?
Missionaries? 'refusal to sign' was like being made to wear the star of David.
Ex-term-inated?
How many people were 'let go' by the Pressler people?
Some say that to destroy a man's chance to earn a living: it would have been more merciful to murder him.
The loss of a career? Or the attempted destruction of a calling?
Such a little 'sacrifice' to make for 'purity' in the SBC.
We wouldn't want any contamination of our peoples by those who are not acceptable and worthy to be in OUR midst, would we?
We wouldn't want anyone who was disloyal to the leadership, would we?
How did Pressler's connections and influences in the CNP affect the treatment of those in the SBC who disagreed with Pressler and his cohorts?
SBC pre-Pressler
vs.
SBC post-Pressler
Quite a dramatic difference, with all the 'undesirables' destroyed.
Extreme far right?
The most extreme the far right ever got on this planet was the Nazi regime.
The coming 'Dominionist' rule will make Hitler look benevolent by comparison.
Destroy dissent.
Intimidate.
Eliminate the 'less desirables'.
Control the money.
Control the education.
Interesting tactics.
Wonder where the ideas for these came from?
No 'theories' here.
The SBC now has a RECORD that can be examined: take a look. Or not.
SUN MYUNG WHO?
SBC leaders saw a new Moon rising at luncheon
___WASHINGTON--Three Texas Baptists were among a group of Southern Baptist Convention leaders attending an Inaugural Prayer Luncheon for Unity and Renewal Jan. 19 that turned out to be sponsored by Sun Myung Moon, founder of the Unification Church.
___Baptist Press issued a story Jan. 23 explaining that the SBC leaders--including SBC President James Merritt, SBC Executive Committee President Morris Chapman and SBC Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission President Richard Land--did not know Moon was behind the interfaith event and were shocked when he rose to speak.
___Technically, the event was sponsored by the Washington Times Foundation. The Washington Times is a conservative-oriented newspaper favored by many conservative evangelical Christians. The paper was founded by and is owned by Moon.
___About 1,400 religious leaders attended the luncheon at the Hyatt Regency Hotel on Capitol Hill the day after President George W. Bush's inauguration.
___Texans among those attending were Paul Pressler and Ed Young of Houston and Jack Graham of Plano. They joined the likes of Jerry Falwell, Franklin Graham, Tony Evans and John Ashcroft.
___"I was shocked to see that Sun Myung Moon was on the program and in essence the host," Chapman said. "I was even more surprised on the way out of the banquet hall to be given a propaganda book on the Unification Church."
___"We knew that it was going to be an interdenominational event, but we had no idea that the luncheon was hosted by the Moonies," said Merritt, who delivered a tribute to evangelist Billy Graham.
___"This was completely unanticipated," Pressler added. "I was not pleasantly surprised by the focus of the luncheon."
___Pressler praised Merritt, however, for using his time on the program to honor Graham and speak about the Christian gospel. "Dr. Merritt was superb," he said.
___Chapman said the experience "will serve to remind evangelical Christians that the world increasingly is filled with wolves in sheep's clothing."
___Pressler and his wife, Nancy, who live near President Bush's parents in Houston, received invitations to two inaugural balls as well as a private prayer service with the first family at St. John Church.
The Baptist Standard
'did not know Moon was behind . . "
'shocked. . . . '
'completely unanticipated . . . "
GET REAL.
It's all about the money, the politics, the control, the alliances.
I think some of the theories advanced in this comment stream would make Oliver Stone jealous.
When 'theory' becomes 'practice',
it's not theory anymore. :)
It's all out there on record.
Can't hide or deny.
Can't stand a dose of REALITY?
Not surprising.
Wade,
Having been a Baptist for more years than I can remember, I long ago came to the conclusion that a large number of Baptists have a strong addiction for admiring their navel. Anyone, like yourself, who attempts to cause them to look elsewhere, will always be seen as negative.
If you want to compare Russia to something, compare it to what is coming down the Pike under Barack Hussein Obama starting with the "Fairness Doctrine," soon to be followed by expanded "hate crimes" laws which may, or may not, stifle some of the folks here.
Sat Dec 27, 06:50:00 PM 2008
Or the proposed 'national' security force.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?hl=en&q=obama+national+security+force&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
What is the difference between Sun Myung Moon , Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers?
Southern history also struggles with a long standing, complicated tradition of
racism. From slavery through the Civil War to the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s,
racism has and continues to influence the rural southern experience. Like African-
Americans, Jews were and are often viewed as outsiders, people connected somehow to
the ills of both the past and modern society. The Ku Klux Klan, demagogic politicians,
Abraham Foxman, Never Again? The Threat of the New Anti-Semitism (New York: Harper, 2003), p.
137.
4 Ariel Yaakov, “Protestant Attitudes to Jews and Judaism During the Last Fifty Years,” in Terms of
Survival: The Jewish World Since 1945, ed. By Robert S. Wistrich (London: Routledge, 1995), pp. 332-
348.
and fundamentalist preachers may have aimed their hatred primarily at African
Americans, but they regularly included Jews in their diatribes. The fact
that a number of Jews played a prominent role in the Civil Rights movement of the 1960s
reinforced rural stereotypes of Jews as outsiders in league with blacks and liberals. Thus
Jews were and are viewed as more liberal, progressive, and out of tune with southern
traditions and values. Remnants of this racial anti-Semitism survive in the rural South
even though many of the hate organizations and motivations have disappeared.
Military defeat in the Civil War produced an inordinate emphasis on militarism in
the South. This is reflected in the large number of military academies, Confederate
monuments, reenactment societies, gun clubs, military bases, and disproportionate
number of southern officers in the US Army. Southern militarism shapes regional culture
and finds an interesting expression in a fascination with Germany’s military might and
defeat in World War II. Southerners hooked on militarism seem more sympathetic with
defeated Germany than victims of the Holocaust.
What is the difference between Sun Myung Moon , Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers?
Ask Paige Patterson. Didn't he attend a function organized by Moon?
If he is going to hob-nob with that group, AND say he didn't realize what he was doing, perhaps he isn't taking responsibility for his own circle of influences.
The CNP, according to their 1996 Telephone Directory, was founded in 1981. While those involved are from the United States, their organizations and influence cover the globe, both religiously and politically. Members include corporate executives, television evangelists, legislators, former military or high ranking government officers, leaders of 'think tanks' dedicated to molding society and those who many view as Christian leadership. Members in many cases are owners or leaders from industry such as lumber, oil, mining, commodities, real estate, the media, including owners of radio, television and print, with all aspects of life covered. Many are involved in education, determining to influence society's direction by direct input with children and youth. Many advocate from the arena of right wing politics, conservatives, family friendly, reconstructionists, dominionists, and so on.
RECONSTRUCTIONISTS
Many on the Christian Right are unaware that they hold Reconstructionist ideas. Because as a theology it is controversial, even among evangelicals, many who are consciously influenced by it avoid the label. This furtiveness is not, however, as significant as the potency of the ideology itself. Generally, Reconstructionism seeks to replace democracy with a theocratic elite that would govern by imposing their interpretation of "Biblical Law." Reconstructionism would eliminate not only democracy but many of its manifestations, such as labor unions, civil rights laws, and public schools. Women would be generally relegated to hearth and home. Insufficiently Christian men would be denied citizenship, perhaps executed. So severe is this theocracy that it would extend capital punishment beyond such crimes as kidnapping, rape, and murder to include, among other things, blasphemy, heresy, adultery, and homosexuality.
In its generic sense, dominionism is a very broad political tendency within the Christian Right. It ranges from soft to hard versions in terms of its theocratic impulse.
Soft Dominionists are Christian nationalists. They believe that Biblically-defined immorality and sin breed chaos and anarchy. They fear that America's greatness as God's chosen land has been undermined by liberal secular humanists, feminists, and homosexuals. Purists want litmus tests for issues of abortion, tolerance of gays and lesbians, and prayer in schools. Their vision has elements of theocracy, but they stop short of calling for supplanting the Constitution and Bill of Rights.
Hard Dominionists believe all of this, but they want the United States to be a Christian theocracy. For them the Constitution and Bill of Rights are merely addendums to Old Testament Biblical law.
Now that you have declared that Jindal is part of the neo Nazi conspiracy of CNP can you explain Vaclav Havel?
If you want to compare Russia to something, compare it to what is coming down the Pike under Barack Hussein Obama starting with the "Fairness Doctrine," soon to be followed by expanded "hate crimes" laws which may, or may not, stifle some of the folks here.
Sat Dec 27, 06:50:00 PM 2008
Or compulsory 'community service' for all youth. His very own Hitler Youth complete with indoctrination.
But, he is their 'messiah'.
"Hate crimes" : expanded laws are not good? will stifle 'some of the people here'?
Oh, how inconvenient.
Just imagine those evil dems cramping your 'hate crime' style.
What is freedom for if you can't torture and torment those you hate.
Elect Cheney President in 2012 and you will have YOUR MAN.
"Hitler Youth" ?
The Nazi's were the EXTREME RIGHT WING.
Who's YOUR feuhrer?
Darby:
You nailed it.
From what I can gather in reading it's as if someone read half of some good books and then mixed it with a heavy dose of Bill Moyers, a freshman religion class at a Baptist college (former, now), the meanderings of Johnny Baugh(rip) and that old directory from the counsel for national policy that he keeps mentioning.
Let's hope he doesn't get hold of the Houston phone book!
Louis
Dominionists going underground for a while?
Or just into bunkers?
Can't hide the record, man.
It's out there.
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