A series of tweets by someone whom I cannot independently verify if it is true or not does not convince me. CRT is a tool that is all it is and I believe the most accurate we have. People of color have put up with this and worse for over 400 years. I hope folks try to verify if this is true or not. The people mentioned are also men who have downed women, tried to get them to stop teaching to both men and women as well as disparaged people like Dwight McKissic, which interestingly gave anecdotal examples why CRT is not evil, yet was shot down by these very men. I have no respect for the men she mentioned. Extremists are here in our churches and I just don't buy it.
Sounds like a strident over-reaction to some good people who tried to help the vulnerable. It may have been based on the current opposition to the image of 'the white savior' of people who are oppressed and dicriminated against; but it really sounds like an over-reaction coming against a well-meaning effort that was inspired by a lot of mis-placed anger and the frustration of generations who have not found a more meaningful way of communicating their own experience.
I can see that the 'language' indicates a bitterness towards those who 'stirred the pot' by their inability to 'accept' the good help offered with good intention;
but there is also OPPORTUNITY here for the folks with good intentions to approach the 'challenge' with patience and long-suffering and without bitterness; which MAY OPEN A SPACE for those who are angry to come and sit down and explain WHY they are upset.
For those who have the patience to OPEN A SPACE by calmly listening and indicating a desire to understand, there is an opportunity to go forward in communication, but we humans so often aren't able to 'listen' when we are under attack from someone who is extremely upset with us.
Long time ago, I received a phone call from a parent whose child was receiving poor grades in my class and she was irate and after listening to her for about five minutes; I asked her if something else was the matter. She began to cry. She came in for an appointment and we arranged extra help for her boy, and she shared with me that yes, there was a problem . . . her husband was sick, he was carried on her work health insurance and her employer had begun to sexually harassed her for 'favors'.
Sometimes the presenting anger is NOT what the real issues are but we cannot know that unless we 'make a place' for listening if we can, and sometimes we CAN. Sometimes we can, and then we go forward in a better direction from there. Hope is a good thing.
We, of course, can politely disagree over this one. Dwight and you and Emily are all friends and will always be my friends. In no form or fashion to you, Dwight, and Emily seek the deconstruction and destruction of American institutions and the Republic. I do believe, however, that CRT is the Trojan Horse, and one of these days, you may end up thanking me for speaking out against the radical Marxism that is anti-God, anti-life, and anti-anything but POWER. Blessings! P.S. - Just a very quick search on the Internet will give you all the information you need about this woman and her husband. She is real.
Thanks, Christiane, for your comments. I think you and Debbie know me well enough that I will always be pleasant and kind to commenters, and always appreciate you two reading.
I am convinced CRT is being used by radicals to change the face of government and destroy the Republic of the United States, inserting in its place dictatorial Marxism/Socialism that has killed tens of millions of people around the world during the 20th century and 21st century. One interesting thing I love about this country, on my blog, one may disagree and be treated respectfully.
1. The first step of Marxism is to shut down dissent. 2. The second step of Marxism is to arrest and detain the dissenters. 3. The third step of Marxism is to kill those who will not be quiet.
Please continue to comment freely and repeatedly, disagreeing to your heart's desire!
I and others are the "canary in the coal mine." When there is no place to register dissent anymore because your house has been destroyed, your business taken over, and your family arrested, you might remember the warnings against Marxism.
The beauty of our relationship and our church in general is the ability to disagree without affecting the relationship. That is so freeing and so great. Being able to think for ourselves is a rare privilege. I will continue to listen and read.
I do Operations Research for the USAF. One of my mentors shared an aphorism a long time ago and it has stuck with me ever since. "All models are wrong. Some models are useful."
My problem with CRT isn't if it is wrong. All models are wrong, in that they are unable to account for outliers or counterfactuals. So CRT is wrong.
My problem is that I am unable to find any use for CRT. It doesn't uplift or enlighten, in fact it does the opposite of those things. It employs racist behavior to achieve racist ends - it demands that people be judged firstly and exclusively by their skin color. It encourages segregation by race. Christianity tells us to love our neighbor as ourself and CRT tells us to hate ourself if we are caucasian (and implies that people with other skin tones lack agency to improve their lives). CRT then tells people to hate caucasians (who then reciprocate).
Follow the history of laws concerning 'race' in this country. Just from that perspective alone, it might be a good idea to explore the issue of 'race' in our country openly and honestly.
Just having the ability to vote in some parts of this country: that is a whole story in itself as to who is handicapped in certain ways historically and even in more modern times. Education is another area because so much of our public education still incorporates 'de facto' segregation. I worked in an environment where our middle school received seventeen bus loads of 'project children' and on the newest wing of the school structure, an entire wall was 'separating' from the building and had to be 'strapped' to the building so as not to collapse. Supposedly, legally, all was 'equal', but in truth in that town in that state, there WAS 'de facto' segregation AND the facilities in which 'project' children were educated were not just sub-standard, but set with alarm systems so that if an outer wall began to crumble, the alarm would alert teachers to remove students from the building quickly. . . . . this is my own witness to what I experienced working in a school in a southern city and I am able to swear by the truth of my right hand that this was so in those days before I retired from teaching.
The law is an ideal. We need to 'catch up to the law' as far as our 'marginalized' citizens are concerned. What we have failed to do for the children of marginalized people is a crime against those children morally and ethically.
Dialogue is just a beginning.
For those who tend to honor the rights of special interests where the fate of children is concerned, I would ask them to consider what happened in Aberfan Wales where the mine owners were allowed to get away with placing school children in danger. The death count was over 100 children buried alive by the avalanche. Comes a time when the privileges of the wealthy need to be reigned in especially in situations where danger to innocent children is known to be. Thanks for letting me vent.
Instigator: I disagree that CRT says if you are white hate yourself. If you can quote from CRT that indicates this I will gladly retract. We as a country passed laws punishable by jail time to those of color who married a white person. The colored were lynched for looking at or talking to a white woman. Even if they were innocent and were deemed guilty by a group of white men not in a courtroom they were burned alive, appendages cut off and worse. After this ended then the work place, banks, homes, etc. were chosen to use as a discriminator tool. So I do not have much sympathy when white people as I am cry out discrimination.
White Privilege does not mean you did not have a tough life, it does mean it was not due to the color of your skin.
Hi Debbie, here is an article regarding CRT training at one of our Nuclear labs.
"This was a mandatory program for white male executives where they were supposed to essentially break down their white male identity, confess their sins to diversity trainers," Rufio told host Tucker Carlson of the session at Sandia National Laboratories. "And at the end of this session, they actually had to write letters of apology to women and people of color based on what they learned about their own privilege."
Here is the link https://www.foxnews.com/us/chris-rufo-one-man-war-race-theory
I have a young cousin (more like a neice) who has become 'woke'. She feels the need to constantly apologize for her 'whiteness' and seek absolution for her sin of being 'white'.
I have not heard about this kind of 'self-hate requirement' either. But I am not being informed by the same sources, no.
Rather than listening to 'conservative' talk show hosts, I find looking at the academic and legal settings for information to be more substantial and informative.
I had a thought that Wade's concept of 'Marxism' sounds more like what an autocratic ruler would impose on those who opposed him, much like Putin in how he has treated Navalny. I tend to see classic 'Marxism' more like an economic theory associated with Karl Marx rather than how it is seen by Wade.
Wade's kindness to allow us to talk freely is, I believe, a mark of trust in that he knows we will try to respect the dignity of persons who see things differently, and I very grateful to him for that 'witness' of Christian hospitality to those who come here to comment.
Sometimes 'disagreements' turn out to be more of a matter of what is emphasized, especially on complex issues. If we don't know what the other person is seeing and why it concerns them, then we are the poorer for it. If I can know what concerns those who see things in a different way, I am able to put so much more into perspective.
Debbie: "Were" is past tense, a reference to some finished and completed action in history.
History is full of human tragedy. No race escapes the wheel of time and fallen human nature.
Disregarding and disrespecting the uniquely American Civil Rights Movement and race equality/progress made here in this country for the racist ideaologies of CRT et al which are tossing us back in time to 1897 will not win you are other proponents any virtue points...
Scott: You use the words "color blind." I have an aversion to such words and always have, even as a child, as those words were used repeatedly. IMO color blind is an insult to the Black community. Color blind indicates to me that you see them as white. No color. We should see the color of someone's skin and respect them for that color and for who they are. To do less is again to whiten them or make them in our image. That is wrong as wrong as racism. I do not want to be seen in a gender blind way. I want to be seen as a Christian woman worth listening to and respected for my gender. Not to be seen as a man. But as a human being who is female and has a brain, etc.
Hello Debbie, thank you for the reference given by Emily Hunter McGowin
Debbie, there is one line that really stood out for me from Nathan Cartagena, this:
"We want to talk about how to get spiritual formation that is race conscious ..."
Debbie, if there can be one powerful connection to be made between Mr. Cartagena's goal and the Church, I think that connection has already been made by Our Lord Himself in the Holy Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 10:
"25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?” 27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[ and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Two thousand years ago, a lesson on 'mercy' and on the universality of God's Law imprinted on the hearts of ALL mankind, regardless of 'label'.
If nothing more maybe some good will come from the controversy over CRT IF people will take some time to return to the lessons found in the Holy Gospels of Our Lord that speak to how we, who are called to be merciful, treat those in need regardless of 'who we are' in terms of race.
Mr. Cartagena's goal finds some deep roots in the Holy Gospels that will not be ignored if one is to learn 'who is my neighbor' within the context of Christian mercy. May that, if nothing more, help work towards Mr. Cartagena's goal: "We want to talk about how to get spiritual formation that is race conscious ..."
The truth of 'who' is 'my neighbor' was not avoided two thousand years ago. Why are we afraid to talk about it now?
You can limit your own vocabulary to your heart's content. But you will not limit nor censure mine.
By color blind, I mean not caring one whit about ethnicity but rather the content of character.
I know many wonderful color-blind folks from all walks of life and ethnicities.
I doubt seriously you speak on behalf of the "black community"..especially not any segment of the "black community" with which I have interaction and relationships.
Scott: If limiting your vocabulary means getting you to think how your speech affects the very people you are not trying to offend, and I assure you the words "color blind" offends people of color deeply, then I don't know what to say other than your intent is to offend. You need to think how your speech affects other people so in that way I will do my best to "censure you".
Perhaps you are offended because I don't lend you much credibility in the department of being in the know about what does or doesn't offend "people of color".
Feel free to bear your white guilt like a bag of bricks, but don't try to strap that worthless load on my cart.
After World War II, our Father and Mother taught GI kids in Giessen, Germany. I was a sophomore in high school with a ‘crush’ on Mary Ann, the prettiest girl in school, but she never knew it. Her father was relocated to Munich,
A year later, we were in Frankfurt where the coach said, “Anyone wants to run track in Munich, be on the bus at seven.”
The mile race was first of the seven American high schools. I won, and of all the crowd cheering, I saw Mary Ann waving. I waved back. It was the last time I saw her. She was easy to spot because she one of the few Blacks.
I am "offended" by any offense taken by my use of the term "color blindness", regardless of what the bow-tied clan at the American Psychological Association has to say on the matter.
Scott: All you are essentially saying is no it isn't when it is. No it doesn't when it does. Yet you offer no proof of your assertions. I could answer you, but I won't. I give you things to read and you keep offering insults with nothing to back them. So I will not be conversing with you. I want this world a better place and that includes loving and welcoming people of color in all walks of life, immigrants to this country whether legal or illegal, making a way for them to be legal; You just want to argue. I don't have time for such.
In the times of slavery, there were TWO groups of people who were severely wounded:
first, it was of course those whose humanity was not celebrated and secondly, it was the people they enslaved
we cannot be inhumane to others without severely wounding ourselves, and the healing of those wounds, if delayed, can affect those concerned for generations to come
Jesus Christ came to reconcile us to God AND to one another.
Perhaps your discourse on inhumanity might also be directed to the English, Dutch and African tribal lords of antiguity who first sold their relatives and countrymen into slavery with the logistical aid of the Dutch.
If we're blaming previous generations, start at the root of evils.
You overlook completely poor Southerners who were not slave owner yet fought valiantly ove issues of state soverignty including the number of black soldiers who also fought for the Confederacy.
These were also people "severely wounded" and I have far more respect for them than these armchair moral quarterbacks of a subsequent, softer, and less spiritual generation.
Debbie: When folks spout nonsense in the name of some culturally configured low-budget concept of justice then you can rest assured I will continually argue against it.
I really admire your work over at SBC voices blog tremendously. If anyone can help shake things up over there for good, I can see you doing it.
You remind me of your biblical name-sake because you carry the same brave spirit as Deborah who led her people to victory into battle in the sacred Scriptures. Like Wade, when you speak up for women who have been abused and persecuted, others may criticize, but you stay strong, DEBBIE.
48 comments:
A series of tweets by someone whom I cannot independently verify if it is true or not does not convince me. CRT is a tool that is all it is and I believe the most accurate we have. People of color have put up with this and worse for over 400 years. I hope folks try to verify if this is true or not. The people mentioned are also men who have downed women, tried to get them to stop teaching to both men and women as well as disparaged people like Dwight McKissic, which interestingly gave anecdotal examples why CRT is not evil, yet was shot down by these very men. I have no respect for the men she mentioned. Extremists are here in our churches and I just don't buy it.
Sounds like a strident over-reaction to some good people who tried to help the vulnerable. It may have been based on the current opposition to the image of 'the white savior' of people who are oppressed and dicriminated against;
but it really sounds like an over-reaction coming against a well-meaning effort that was inspired by a lot of mis-placed anger and the frustration of generations who have not found a more meaningful way of communicating their own experience.
I can see that the 'language' indicates a bitterness towards those who 'stirred the pot' by their inability to 'accept' the good help offered with good intention;
but there is also OPPORTUNITY here for the folks with good intentions to approach the 'challenge' with patience and long-suffering and without bitterness;
which MAY OPEN A SPACE for those who are angry to come and sit down and explain WHY they are upset.
For those who have the patience to OPEN A SPACE by calmly listening and indicating a desire to understand, there is an opportunity to go forward in communication,
but we humans so often aren't able to 'listen' when we are under attack from someone who is extremely upset with us.
Long time ago, I received a phone call from a parent whose child was receiving poor grades in my class and she was irate and after listening to her for about five minutes; I asked her if something else was the matter. She began to cry. She came in for an appointment and we arranged extra help for her boy, and she shared with me that yes, there was a problem . . . her husband was sick, he was carried on her work health insurance and her employer had begun to sexually harassed her for 'favors'.
Sometimes the presenting anger is NOT what the real issues are but we cannot know that unless we 'make a place' for listening if we can, and sometimes we CAN. Sometimes we can, and then we go forward in a better direction from there. Hope is a good thing.
Debbie,
We, of course, can politely disagree over this one. Dwight and you and Emily are all friends and will always be my friends. In no form or fashion to you, Dwight, and Emily seek the deconstruction and destruction of American institutions and the Republic. I do believe, however, that CRT is the Trojan Horse, and one of these days, you may end up thanking me for speaking out against the radical Marxism that is anti-God, anti-life, and anti-anything but POWER. Blessings! P.S. - Just a very quick search on the Internet will give you all the information you need about this woman and her husband. She is real.
Thanks, Christiane, for your comments. I think you and Debbie know me well enough that I will always be pleasant and kind to commenters, and always appreciate you two reading.
I am convinced CRT is being used by radicals to change the face of government and destroy the Republic of the United States, inserting in its place dictatorial Marxism/Socialism that has killed tens of millions of people around the world during the 20th century and 21st century. One interesting thing I love about this country, on my blog, one may disagree and be treated respectfully.
1. The first step of Marxism is to shut down dissent.
2. The second step of Marxism is to arrest and detain the dissenters.
3. The third step of Marxism is to kill those who will not be quiet.
Please continue to comment freely and repeatedly, disagreeing to your heart's desire!
I and others are the "canary in the coal mine." When there is no place to register dissent anymore because your house has been destroyed, your business taken over, and your family arrested, you might remember the warnings against Marxism.
The beauty of our relationship and our church in general is the ability to disagree without affecting the relationship. That is so freeing and so great. Being able to think for ourselves is a rare privilege. I will continue to listen and read.
I do Operations Research for the USAF. One of my mentors shared an aphorism a long time ago and it has stuck with me ever since. "All models are wrong. Some models are useful."
My problem with CRT isn't if it is wrong. All models are wrong, in that they are unable to account for outliers or counterfactuals. So CRT is wrong.
My problem is that I am unable to find any use for CRT. It doesn't uplift or enlighten, in fact it does the opposite of those things. It employs racist behavior to achieve racist ends - it demands that people be judged firstly and exclusively by their skin color. It encourages segregation by race. Christianity tells us to love our neighbor as ourself and CRT tells us to hate ourself if we are caucasian (and implies that people with other skin tones lack agency to improve their lives). CRT then tells people to hate caucasians (who then reciprocate).
Something so hateful can only be from evil.
Instugator,
Well said.
And, Instugator, thank you for your service.
Exactly:
Why substitute one racist ideology for another if the issue is really "racism"?
Power. Economics. Control.
"For God has made all peoples from all nations of one blood."
Racism doesn't exist where the Prince of Peace rules.
Racism becomes a problem where people want power and control.
As I said on FB, George Orwell said it well: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it.”
Follow the history of laws concerning 'race' in this country. Just from that perspective alone, it might be a good idea to explore the issue of 'race' in our country openly and honestly.
Just having the ability to vote in some parts of this country: that is a whole story in itself as to who is handicapped in certain ways historically and even in more modern times. Education is another area because so much of our public education still incorporates 'de facto' segregation. I worked in an environment where our middle school received seventeen bus loads of 'project children' and on the newest wing of the school structure, an entire wall was 'separating' from the building and had to be 'strapped' to the building so as not to collapse. Supposedly, legally, all was 'equal', but in truth in that town in that state, there WAS 'de facto' segregation AND the facilities in which 'project' children were educated were not just sub-standard, but set with alarm systems so that if an outer wall began to crumble, the alarm would alert teachers to remove students from the building quickly. . . . . this is my own witness to what I experienced working in a school in a southern city and I am able to swear by the truth of my right hand that this was so in those days before I retired from teaching.
The law is an ideal. We need to 'catch up to the law' as far as our 'marginalized' citizens are concerned. What we have failed to do for the children of marginalized people is a crime against those children morally and ethically.
Dialogue is just a beginning.
For those who tend to honor the rights of special interests where the fate of children is concerned,
I would ask them to consider what happened in Aberfan Wales where the mine owners were allowed to get away with placing school children in danger. The death count was over 100 children buried alive by the avalanche. Comes a time when the privileges of the wealthy need to be reigned in especially in situations where danger to innocent children is known to be. Thanks for letting me vent.
Instigator: I disagree that CRT says if you are white hate yourself. If you can quote from CRT that indicates this I will gladly retract. We as a country passed laws punishable by jail time to those of color who married a white person. The colored were lynched for looking at or talking to a white woman. Even if they were innocent and were deemed guilty by a group of white men not in a courtroom they were burned alive, appendages cut off and worse. After this ended then the work place, banks, homes, etc. were chosen to use as a discriminator tool. So I do not have much sympathy when white people as I am cry out discrimination.
White Privilege does not mean you did not have a tough life, it does mean it was not due to the color of your skin.
Hi Debbie, here is an article regarding CRT training at one of our Nuclear labs.
"This was a mandatory program for white male executives where they were supposed to essentially break down their white male identity, confess their sins to diversity trainers," Rufio told host Tucker Carlson of the session at Sandia National Laboratories. "And at the end of this session, they actually had to write letters of apology to women and people of color based on what they learned about their own privilege."
Here is the link
https://www.foxnews.com/us/chris-rufo-one-man-war-race-theory
I have a young cousin (more like a neice) who has become 'woke'. She feels the need to constantly apologize for her 'whiteness' and seek absolution for her sin of being 'white'.
If that isn't self loathing, nothing is.
Thanks, Instugator.
Hello Debbie,
I have not heard about this kind of 'self-hate requirement' either. But I am not being informed by the same sources, no.
Rather than listening to 'conservative' talk show hosts, I find looking at the academic and legal settings for information to be more substantial and informative.
I had a thought that Wade's concept of 'Marxism' sounds more like what an autocratic ruler would impose on those who opposed him, much like Putin in how he has treated Navalny. I tend to see classic 'Marxism' more like an economic theory associated with Karl Marx rather than how it is seen by Wade.
Wade's kindness to allow us to talk freely is, I believe, a mark of trust in that he knows we will try to respect the dignity of persons who see things differently, and I very grateful to him for that 'witness' of Christian hospitality to those who come here to comment.
Sometimes 'disagreements' turn out to be more of a matter of what is emphasized, especially on complex issues. If we don't know what the other person is seeing and why it concerns them, then we are the poorer for it. If I can know what concerns those who see things in a different way, I am able to put so much more into perspective.
Sounds more to me,Instugator, like our public and secondary ed tax dollars at work😎
Agree with the power and control caveat 100%.
Christianne:
"Exploring the issue of race" in this highly hypersensitized cultural circus might seem like a "good idea" to you.
From my perspective, it's like the idea of ripping open freshly sewn stitches from a Doberman's hip surgery to admire the doctor's work.
Debbie:
"Were" is past tense, a reference to some finished and completed action in history.
History is full of human tragedy. No race escapes the wheel of time and fallen human nature.
Disregarding and disrespecting the uniquely American Civil Rights Movement and race equality/progress made here in this country for the racist ideaologies of CRT et al which are tossing us back in time to 1897 will not win you are other proponents any virtue points...
On any scale of justice.
Christiane: Thanks. You saved me a whole lot of typing, because you said exactly the same thing I would have said. :)
There's absolutely nothing "academic" about choosing false narratives....no matter how educated one might be.
This article that I read and found through Emily Hunter McGowin is well worth the read.
https://sojo.net/articles/why-nathan-cartagena-teaches-critical-race-theory-evangelicals?fbclid=IwAR0I5yKdC4xXOoZzdkvqT0HXDHL9NJq22RCty6sXLzgyyoj50QSKVYXg1q4
Scott: You use the words "color blind." I have an aversion to such words and always have, even as a child, as those words were used repeatedly. IMO color blind is an insult to the Black community. Color blind indicates to me that you see them as white. No color. We should see the color of someone's skin and respect them for that color and for who they are. To do less is again to whiten them or make them in our image. That is wrong as wrong as racism. I do not want to be seen in a gender blind way. I want to be seen as a Christian woman worth listening to and respected for my gender. Not to be seen as a man. But as a human being who is female and has a brain, etc.
Hello Debbie,
thank you for the reference given by Emily Hunter McGowin
Debbie, there is one line that really stood out for me from Nathan Cartagena, this:
"We want to talk about how to get spiritual formation that is race conscious ..."
Debbie, if there can be one powerful connection to be made between Mr. Cartagena's goal and the Church, I think that connection has already been made by Our Lord Himself in the Holy Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 10:
"25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[ and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’
36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”
37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”
Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”
Two thousand years ago, a lesson on 'mercy' and on the universality of God's Law imprinted on the hearts of ALL mankind, regardless of 'label'.
If nothing more maybe some good will come from the controversy over CRT
IF people will take some time to return to the lessons found in the Holy Gospels of Our Lord that speak to how we, who are called to be merciful, treat those in need regardless of 'who we are' in terms of race.
Mr. Cartagena's goal finds some deep roots in the Holy Gospels that will not be ignored if one is to learn 'who is my neighbor' within the context of Christian mercy.
May that, if nothing more, help work towards Mr. Cartagena's goal:
"We want to talk about how to get spiritual formation that is race conscious ..."
The truth of 'who' is 'my neighbor' was not avoided two thousand years ago. Why are we afraid to talk about it now?
Debbie:
You can limit your own vocabulary to your heart's content. But you will not limit nor censure mine.
By color blind, I mean not caring one whit about ethnicity but rather the content of character.
I know many wonderful color-blind folks from all walks of life and ethnicities.
I doubt seriously you speak on behalf of the "black community"..especially not any segment of the "black community" with which I have interaction and relationships.
Scott: If limiting your vocabulary means getting you to think how your speech affects the very people you are not trying to offend, and I assure you the words "color blind" offends people of color deeply, then I don't know what to say other than your intent is to offend. You need to think how your speech affects other people so in that way I will do my best to "censure you".
Very well put Christiane
Debbie:
Perhaps you are offended because I don't lend you much credibility in the department of being in the know about what does or doesn't offend "people of color".
Feel free to bear your white guilt like a bag of bricks, but don't try to strap that worthless load on my cart.
I would suggest, Debbie, that not everybody "thinks" like you.
Nor should they feel bad or less than Christian for not doing so.
"I assure you the words color blind offends people of color deeply".
All I can say to that, Debbie, is that stupidity is no respector of ethnicity.
After World War II, our Father and Mother taught GI kids in Giessen, Germany. I was a sophomore in high school with a ‘crush’ on Mary Ann, the prettiest girl in school, but she never knew it. Her father was relocated to Munich,
A year later, we were in Frankfurt where the coach said, “Anyone wants to run track in Munich, be on the bus at seven.”
The mile race was first of the seven American high schools. I won, and of all the crowd cheering, I saw Mary Ann waving. I waved back. It was the last time I saw her. She was easy to spot because she one of the few Blacks.
Rex, according to Ms Kaufman, you are politically correct for noticing the color of her skin as an identifying characteristic.
Congrats on your woke sensitivities😎
I am "offended" by any offense taken by my use of the term "color blindness", regardless of what the bow-tied clan at the American Psychological Association has to say on the matter.
All God's children have beefs it would appear.
The last thing in the world this Christian looks for is a "spiritual formation that is race conscious".
Sounds incompatible with Heaven itself.
Scott: All you are essentially saying is no it isn't when it is. No it doesn't when it does. Yet you offer no proof of your assertions. I could answer you, but I won't. I give you things to read and you keep offering insults with nothing to back them. So I will not be conversing with you. I want this world a better place and that includes loving and welcoming people of color in all walks of life, immigrants to this country whether legal or illegal, making a way for them to be legal; You just want to argue. I don't have time for such.
Christianne: Exactly. TY.
In the times of slavery,
there were TWO groups of people who were severely wounded:
first, it was of course those whose humanity was not celebrated
and secondly, it was the people they enslaved
we cannot be inhumane to others without severely wounding ourselves, and the healing of those wounds, if delayed, can affect those concerned for generations to come
Jesus Christ came to reconcile us to God AND to one another.
Christianne:
Perhaps your discourse on inhumanity might also be directed to the English, Dutch and African tribal lords of antiguity who first sold their relatives and countrymen into slavery with the logistical aid of the Dutch.
If we're blaming previous generations, start at the root of evils.
Debbie:
As mentioned previously, the axis of knowlege and history is not subject to your partial and emotional views.
If you didn't have "time for such", you wouldn't keep answering the bell on this thread.
Plain as the nose on one's face.
Christianne:
I think Jesus had a slightly different take on whether or not the eating of sour grapes by the fathers have set the teeth of their children on edge.
Better double-check that in Scripture....respectfully.
Christianne:
You overlook completely poor Southerners who were not slave owner yet fought valiantly ove issues of state soverignty including the number of black soldiers who also fought for the Confederacy.
These were also people "severely wounded" and I have far more respect for them than these armchair moral quarterbacks of a subsequent, softer, and less spiritual generation.
Debbie:
So you promote lawlessness via illegal immigration?
How is lawlessness subsequently sanctified in your belief system?
Debbie: When folks spout nonsense in the name of some culturally configured low-budget concept of justice then you can rest assured I will continually argue against it.
Without apology.
Hello DEBBIE,
I really admire your work over at SBC voices blog tremendously. If anyone can help shake things up over there for good, I can see you doing it.
You remind me of your biblical name-sake because you carry the same brave spirit as Deborah who led her people to victory into battle in the sacred Scriptures. Like Wade, when you speak up for women who have been abused and persecuted, others may criticize, but you stay strong, DEBBIE.
Debbie won't shake up much here, I fear, if she fails to interact on the level of divergent viewpoints void of the platitudes and shibboleths.
The difference between "Voices" and here (Istoria) is that ALL voices are tolerated and considered. IMO.
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