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| Paul and Mary Burleson, Wade's parents |
To those who are regular readers of Istoria Ministries, the article today is a doozy!
It's written by my father, Paul Burleson, who is drawing close to "four score" years of age.
In the 1970s, he served as pastor of a Southern Baptist church in Fort Worth, a church that the Convention recognized as "one of the largest and fastest-growing Southern Baptist churches in the nation."
I can remember hundreds of seminary students flocking to hear my father speak every Sunday night when I was in high school. Administrators and professors of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary were members of the church where my father taught, and many "big names" in the Southern Baptist Convention became very close to my mom and dad.
My mom, Mary Burleson, waited till the four kids were out of the home, and then she launched her career, becoming a highly sought-after professional editor of books and textbooks.
When Paul retired from being a vocational pastor at the age of 57, he began traveling the country with Mary, and they held pastors and wives conferences. Paul still teaches regularly, and if you want someone to encourage your people - both old and young - send him an email at vtm@cox.net.
This morning, I saw a Facebook post that my dad wrote. I tried to share his post on Twitter, but the link broke. So, I decided to place what Paul Burleson wrote in html (with links) on Istoria.
I have two thoughts on the article you are about to read:
1. We should all have more friends like Paul Burleson on Facebook, for he accepts and cooperates with all who disagree.
2. We ought to "share the dickens" out of this post, because it shows a respectful disagreement to the traditional Southern Baptist view that pastors/elders have "authority over God's people."
Thanks, Dad, for your encouragement! And, thanks Mom, for your professional editing of my newest book The Face of Grace!
________________________________________________________________________
A WEEKEND WORD ABOUT A WEAK TRANSLATION OF THE WORD
Paul Burleson
Wade, our son, who is involved in the current debate about women in ministry in the SBC, has been challenged about his view of authority in the local church with the challenger quoting the Hebrews 13 passage as absolute textual evidence that elders are suppose to rule and that men only are to be elders [think "pastors"].
The writer correcting Wade said this, “Has Pastor Burleson overlooked the verse in Hebrews 13:17 -
The writer correcting Wade said this, “Has Pastor Burleson overlooked the verse in Hebrews 13:17 -
"Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account?” (Hebrews 13:17)
Bam!
Close the door on any argument at all. The biggest statement for the idea that elders (pastors) rule over God's people and we should submit to them has just slammed the door shut on any disagreement. Right?
Wrong!
Let’s look carefully at that Hebrews 13 passage.
There are three verses in Hebrews 13 that could, at first glance with a Western mind set, be used for "the right of elders/pastors" to be "in authority over others" within the church., and for this authority to reside in those who hold “the office of elder/pastor."
But let's look at these three verses carefully and see if they say what those who believe in male pastoral authority believe they say. The verses are Hebrews 13:7, 13:17, and 13:24. In the King James Version they read:
We will lay it aside as an unfortunate and an unwarranted addition to the text by translators. It simply is not there in the better English translations.“Remember them [presumably elders they say] which have the rule over you, [presumably those who hold the office of elder/pastor] who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.” (Hebrews 13:7, KJV)
“Obey them [presumably elders/pastors again] that have the rule over you [they think those who hold the office of elder/pastor again] and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” (Hebrews 13:17, KJV)
“Salute (to draw to one’s self) all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.” (Hebrews 13:24, KJV)There are several observations that need to be made about the above three verses:
(1) Notice that the word “elder” does not actually appear in these verses at allI added the word “presumably” in the above translations to show where some people think that the word "they" should be read as elder/pastor. But the word “elder” or "pastor" is simply not there in the more accurate translations.
(2) The word “over” is not actually in any one of these three verses either.
(3) It’s also worthy of note that the Hebrews 13:7 verse is written in the past tense though “incorrectly” translated by the KJV in the present tense.So, Hebrews 13:7 is correctly translated this way:
“Remember them who were your guides (e.g. 'your pioneers, those who led the way'), whose faith you are [presently] to imitate, taking note of how they were faithful to the very end of life.”In context, Hebrews 13:7 as a verse reminding the early Hebrew Christians of all those faithful "pioneers of the faith" mentioned in Hebrews chapter 11 and Hebrews chapter 12, many of whom died for their faith.
It follows then, in terms of proper exegesis, that Hebrews 13:6 is a reminder not to fear what man can do to me, but follow the example of those who've gone before (the Hall of Faith). And that is exactly the conclusion the writer of Hebrews wishes us to have:
...so that we confidently say,
“The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid.
What will man do to me?” (Hebrews 13:6).
The entire passage in Hebrews 13 is a help for Christians to learn how not to fear man.
The men and women of faith listed in Hebrews chapter 11 and Hebrews chapter 12 did not fear man. They gave their lives because of being fearless. It may even include the Apostles themselves.
To make "them" in Hebrews 13:7 to mean “elders/pastor” is not an option in terms of proper biblical interpretation.
Ironically, the "them" to whom the writer of Hebrews refers includes Rahab (Hebrews 11:31), women (Hebrews 11:35), and other unnamed women of faith "of whom the world is not worthy" (Hebrews 11:38). Please note that the English word "men" in Hebrews 11:38 is not in the original Greek text. The pioneers of faith, "them who are our guides" and "of whom the world is not worthy" includes men and women.
(4) In Hebrews 13:17 three words give us some trouble as translated in the King James Version or read with a Western preconceived idea of meanings.
As mentioned above, the word “over” is not in the text, so we will drop it. The 3 words are: Obey, rule and submit.
"Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." (Hebrews 13:17).Obey - in the Greek it is peitho. This word means to persuade, to win over. When it is in the passive and middle voices, it means to be persuaded. In Acts 5:40, peitho is in the passive voice and is translated “they were persuaded."
The obedience suggested in the text is NOT by submission to any authority, but agreement resulting from persuasion (see W. E. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words).
So, according to Vine’s Dictionary, the word peitho (wrongly translated "obey") means to follow the pioneers because you "have been persuaded” by their testimony, their lives, and their faith to the end.
The word does not mean obedience the way the Western mind thinks of obedience at all. The “willingness to follow” of Hebrews 13:17 is due to an internal reasoning and agreement that results from persuasion, not an external conformity that is the result of authoritative control.
(Side note from Wade: "It is for this reason, if any pastor demands your submission, you must resist because you have not been persuaded.")
Rule - is the Greek word hegeomai. This word means “to lead, to go before, to be a leader”; it does not carry the connotation of ruling over, but of being out in front doing a particular task in a church (see Strong’s Word Studies).
So, what needs to be seen here is that the Greek word translated “rule” in this verse and verses like it, is not a translation but a redefinition of one Greek word. Hegeomai, which is translated "rule over you" by King James' translators in Hebrews 13:7 and 17 and 24 [Strong's #2233] which is normally translated “count,” “esteem,” “to lead” or “to go before.”
"Them that have the rule over…” is a substitute redefinition by King James' translators. There is no connotation whatsoever of “ruling over.” Remember thaemthat go before you.So, according to the Scriptures, true leadership is nothing more than going out in front.
Submit - is the Greek word hypeikete. This word is in the present imperative active tense, and it means “to choose to submit or to follow or to yield”. This is that word’s only appearance in the New Testament, and most likely should be translated “yield.”
There is a Greek word that means “to be subject to and obey”. That word is peitharcheo (peith-ar-KAY-o), one of the words built upon “arche” meaning “ruler”. It is found three times in the New Testament, twice in Acts (5:29 & 27:21) and once in Titus (3:1).
There, and in other writings outside the New Testament, it describes obedience to someone who is in civil authority or to God, but that word is not the word used here and it is not ever used for relationships in the local congregation in terms of members "obeying and submitting" to the authority of a pastor/elder.
There is a Greek word that means “to be subject to and obey”. That word is peitharcheo (peith-ar-KAY-o), one of the words built upon “arche” meaning “ruler”. It is found three times in the New Testament, twice in Acts (5:29 & 27:21) and once in Titus (3:1).
There, and in other writings outside the New Testament, it describes obedience to someone who is in civil authority or to God, but that word is not the word used here and it is not ever used for relationships in the local congregation in terms of members "obeying and submitting" to the authority of a pastor/elder.
Even Paul counted himself as a fellow servant. He said in II Corinthians 1:24:
“Not that we have dominion [archo] over your faith, but are fellow workers for your joy, for by faith you stand.”(Note from Wade: Any man in a position of pastor/elder who seeks to "take dominion" over your faith, is violating the words of Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul, and is guilty of spiritual abuse).
(5) For a better understanding of Hebrews 13:24 see the above for Hebrews 13:7 and the meaning of the Greek word translated “rule”.
So, the better English translations of Hebrews 13:7; Hebrews 13:17; and Hebrews 13:24 would be:
This is not to say that there cannot be ministries that people can be called to vocationally (pastors), or volunteer ministries (deacons) within a local church, but the sacred text tells us that gifted men and women of faith, whose lives have been an example of perseverance in the faith, are those people we should allow to persuade us of the truth in Christ, yielding ourselves to what they have to say because of the example they've given us. They are our pioneers.
“Remember them who have [past tense] been your guides, [think "the people of faith" in Hebrews 11 and 12] who led the way with the Word: whose faith imitate, considering the strong way they ended their life.” (Hebrews 13:7)
“Choose to yield to those who are out in front leading you because you are persuaded they are likewise being faithful in their task, knowing they will be held accountable.” (Hebrews 13:17)
“Embrace all those who are your guides or leaders, as well as all the Saints. They of Italy embrace you as well.”(Hebrews 13:24)There is simply no concept in this entire Hebrews passage of anyone "lording over" or being "in authority over" someone else in the church. There is no biblical (textual) justification for an office of any kind in the New Testament local church that carries "inherent authority" vested in it.
This is not to say that there cannot be ministries that people can be called to vocationally (pastors), or volunteer ministries (deacons) within a local church, but the sacred text tells us that gifted men and women of faith, whose lives have been an example of perseverance in the faith, are those people we should allow to persuade us of the truth in Christ, yielding ourselves to what they have to say because of the example they've given us. They are our pioneers.
The New Testament does not teach that there is some kind of "office of authority" in the church.
Though the establishment of “hierarchies of title, offices, and positions” with inherent "authority over people" is certainly a cultural concept, Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and the entire New Testament tells Kingdom disciples that "it is not to be this way among you."
Though the establishment of “hierarchies of title, offices, and positions” with inherent "authority over people" is certainly a cultural concept, Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and the entire New Testament tells Kingdom disciples that "it is not to be this way among you."
56 comments:
"Though the establishment of “hierarchies of title, offices, and positions” with inherent "authority over people" is certainly a cultural concept, Jesus, the Apostle Paul, and the entire New Testament tells Kingdom disciples that "it is not to be this way among you.""
(Paul Burleson)
well said indeed
"From George Washington to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island, 18 August 1790
To the Hebrew Congregation in Newport, Rhode Island
[Newport, R.I., 18 August 1790]Gentlemen:
The reflection on the days of difficulty and danger which are past is rendered the more sweet, from a consciousness that they are succeeded by days of uncommon prosperity and security. If we have wisdom to make the best use of the advantages with which we are now favored, we cannot fail, under the just administration of a good Government, to become a great and a happy people.
The Citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy: a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people, that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support."
also, well-said indeed
Wade and Paul,
Thanks!
I believe if what’s written in the Bible is true, then it’s the ‘Inspired Word of God’, but anything NOT true, is not the Word of God.
In my Bible on Hebrews 13:17 (Obey your spiritual leaders and do what they say…) Years ago, I wrote “NO”.
I take a tad different approach, Rex! I think all of us ought to have "a spirit of submission," but we should examine those who are DEMANDING submission and ABUSING people by their alleged authority, and if we see their lives don't back up the attitude and character of Jesus, we are called to "not yield," but do all we can to bring justice to the situation, protecting the defenseless, encouraging the broken, and punching in the mouth the abuser. Laughing. I only use my roundhouse punch when I see women and children abused by men who take "authority" over them.
I love the word "yield" over "submit". The action is the same but it seems like the heart behind each one may not be. Why does yielding feel more like it's born from my choice while submitting feels like it's due to someone else's force or intimidation?!?
Cindy,
You've put your finger on the issue.
I had a pastor friend text me today "Who leads your church?" I thought about responding "Jesus Christ" (which is the truth), but he would think I was bring snarky.
There are no leaders but Christ. Gifted men and women serve as He gifts us. I am a visionary and can see big picture things instantly, but I sure do need men and women around me who are gifted in the details and great exhorters because I can sometimes move to quickly because I see where we need to go.
The greatest change we made at Emmanuel in the 28 years I've been here is to give gifted woman places in all areas of leadership according to their giftings. They have saved us from many mistakes!
And we all "yield" to one another as we see faith at practice in each others' lives.
Paul,
I like the NLT of Hebrews 13:7: “Remember your leaders who taught you the word of God. Think of all the good that has come from their lives, and follow the example of their faith.”
Paul,
“…follow the example of their faith.”
Connecting this Scripture to our father, Dave Ray, reminded me of some things not to do. I have a large picture of my twin brother, Hez, and I, that was taken by our father. We’re standing by a car that had large letters, “Alaska or bust”. The license plate was 1951, and we were 19.
We ‘busted’ in Montana, and spent the summer patching flat building roofs with tar. One day Hez and I returned to our hotel to find it evacuated and surrounded by fire trucks and police.
“STOP, THERE’S A GAS LEAK AND THE HOTEL MAY EXPLODE!”
“OUR DADDY’S IN THERE!”
He wasn’t in our room, but found him in the basement washing tar off our clothes in a washing machine filled with gasoline. We told him what was going on, and he poured the gasoline down a drain. We walked out and passed the firetrucks as ‘innocent’ as lambs. They never found what made the smell.
Thank you thank you thank you for this article! I have been looking for something like this for a while. Grew up RC and am SBC now, so this is good news!
Hello WADE,
I will respect you always as a minister of the Church, and I do not question YOUR witness to Our Lord, but you may not know how others may see what is happening in our country now, so I will share this with you:
You wrote this: " I only use my roundhouse punch when I see women and children abused by men who take "authority" over them."
thank you for these words, which I know are true within the context of the Church, and God Bless you for them always;
but I would like for you to know how many women are also feeling as you do, but in a much WIDER context, this:
"""In barn-red Texas, some white evangelical women have had it with unquestioned fealty to Republicans. Galvanizing them are Trump administration actions like separating immigrant children from their parents at the southern border, a policy they deem anti-Christian. “I care as much about babies at the border as I do about babies in the womb,” Tess Clarke of Dallas told a New York Times reporter."
Wade, for the sake of the little ones ('tender age') incarcerated in the border facilities, I remain hopeful for good to come . . . but those little ones are suffering NOW. And yes, we remember: Jeremiah 31:15 and St.Matthew 2:18, and many American mothers remember these verses to our national shame.
And then, there is the story of Nathan and King David, and I believe that the Church has some work still left to do that has not been done in real time. This also is causing Christians to sorrow. We need for there to be a 'Nathan' now.
The quote about Texas is from this article:
https://www.nytimes.com/201...
Hey out there, REX RAY
I loved your story about your father and the clothes with tar and washing them with gasoline (does that REALLY work?) . . . I won't even let gasoline in our garage (except in the tank of my SUV) . . . so we have a little 'barn' storage building where it is kept IF we have some at all.
At my son's house, I loaned him money to build 'shed' to store his gas can 'cause I worried when he was keeping it in his garage.
Your story is great: I can see it all, the firetrucks, your father pouring the gas down the drain, etc. . . . I hadn't laughed all day, but that did it. Another winner. :)
Thanks.
CHRISTIANE,
Thanks. I knew if anyone responded to that story, it would be you.
Very interesting! Thanks for posting this.
Wade,
We have met but you may not remember since it has been awhile. I first met you when I was a seminary student at Southwestern and a member, with my wife, at Southcliff. The ministry of your mom and dad to us laid a foundation still so strong for over 40 years now. Your dad, along with Oscar Thompson, were my mentors. My wife and I have had the pleasure of the Double Honor weekend with your mom and dad. The key point of this response is the sincerity and total faithfulness your parents gave and practiced for the love and obedience to word of God on every subject. I remember your dad sharing that when a man truly realizes his position in the presence of Christ and his responsibilities, it will drive him to Christ or drive him crazy. My wife and I truly love your parents and thanks so much for sharing, once again, their standing for truth in His word. Blessings. Steve Miller
Paul,
I’m sure you remember years ago, the revival you led at New Zion Baptist Church; and me yelling at you in the parking lot: “Come back Zane, we love you!”
I remember on your blog, we discussed Peter’s amazement when Gentiles received the Holy Spirit before he was through preaching, and without being baptize. (As Peter thought was necessary:
“Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins…and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ…Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38 NLT)
You’re the only person I remember of saying, “Peter was on a learning curve.”
CHRISTIANE,
This week, we had lunch with Judy’s son, Keith, and his wife. (They’re Democrats.) Keith said with a laugh, “Now we’re not going to discuss politics”, but they both laughed when I showed them a picture of Barney (deputy in “Andy Griffin TV show”) with his police hat on and ‘Shifty-Shift’ with the same hat. They looked almost identical.
I know your comment was to Wade, but I couldn’t resist. :)
You quoted a person saying, “I care as much about babies at the border as I do about babies in the womb.”
Christiane, if you believed only a small amount of the link below, would you vote for Democratic Bloomberg?
https://www.thecut.com/2020/02/mike-bloomberg-accused-of-workplace-sexual-harassment.html
Paraphrasing a small amount of this link: When Bloomberg learned a salesperson was pregnant in 1995, he told her to kill the baby. She was fired a few months later.
What about Joe Bidden? He’s proven guilty of doing what Trump was falsely impeached for.
Pete Buttieg? Who advertises he’s homosexual.
Leading candidate Bernie Sanders? His program is one step from Communism with an increase in taxes that would take the world to pay for.
Rex, Christiane will never get it. She tries these provocative posts that have nothing to do with the subject. She does this out of the blue on imonk and nobody responds.
I can respond that it is clear to me that the deep divisions in our country are stronger fostered by opposing media sources. One in particular worked initially in a 'campaign' to set itself up as the 'only' one that was 'fair and balanced'.
So if people are not 'seeing' the same things in our political situation, I look at the causes being related to 'the messengers' and also to those who have come from other countries to comment on our social media, countries that have political agendas that would gain from fostering deep divisions within our citizens here in this country.
So, I am at least aware of one source of the dis-connect, yes.
The thing is that we still in this country WANT everyone to have free choices about who they support politically, even IF we 'disagree' with one anothers' choices. Nothing is going to change that.
But one way to 'overcome' the media crisis, as I see it, is to ask people to consider why it is that our free press is under attack and by whom;
and to also take a look at what happened to any remnants of a 'free press' in the country that is targeting our social media now.
I think if people WIDEN their intake of information 'outside' of their own 'bubbles' and 'comfort levels', that some ground can be found for dialogue that is positive and helpful.
Sometimes something must go 'full circle' before it can be resolved. But in some cases, the destruction and harm done to innocents is so great that if 'the better way' can be found, we owe ourselves that opportunity to find it.
CHRISTIANE,
Well, old friend, you haven’t said who you’re going to vote for. If it’s for the leading Democratic millionaire candidate, Bernie Sanders, there’s something to remember:
If the Government has the ability to give you something, it has the right to take it away.
https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/484644-sanders-comes-under-fire-over-cost-of-medicare-for-all
“His list of possible financing options, if all added together, totals about $16 trillion over 10 years, about half the projected cost of the plan.”
One of his opponents said, “It’s going to cost us four more years of Trump in the White House.”
I didn’t quote correctly what some kind of Government can do.
https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/government-big-enough-give-you-everything-you-wantspurious-quotation
“Any government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take away everything you have.”
Everyone has heard of bats in the belfry, but have you heard of ‘rats in the attic’?
Many years ago, while trying to sleep, we could hear them five feet from our ears sounding like galloping horses.
We decide poison was the solution. On the third day, all was quite except while eating super, this huge rat waddled out and stopped four feet from us.
I could read his mind: ‘Get me out of my misery.’
I got a broom and swung as hard as I could. I only hit the floor because he changed his mind and disappeared running down the hall. I thought he’d gone to our bedroom, but failed to find him.
I was almost asleep when my wife, Belle, said, “Did you touch me?”
“Stop thinking about that rat and go to sleep.”
“DID YOU TOUCH ME?”
“No.”
Without moving she reached up and turn the overhead bed light on and flipped the covers off. There lay the monster between her legs.
Both of them sprang into action: he ran to a corner and she jumped up and down on the bed screaming, “GET HIM, GET HIM” over and over.
I got him with a broom.
Hi Christiane,
What do you think is the reason for the trends described here?
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/484592-fox-news-primetime-lineup-delivers-highest-ratings-in-network-history
Hello Ken F.
Perhaps because the viewers are spared so much of what they rest of us have come to know, such as this story:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/father-us-border-patrol-separated-family-marco-antonio-munoz-honduras-a8392006.html
Hello REX RAY,
I intend to vote as I hope we ALL will vote as Americans:
'upon honor and conscience'
"Perhaps because the viewers are spared so much of what they rest of us have come to know,"
Hi Christiane,
Which viewers are you talking about? The article talks about Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC viewer trends. Are you saying that none of the viewers of those networks are part of the rest of US? If the rest of us are not watching Fox, CNN and MSNBC, what are we watching?
Hello Ken F
I was responding with a possible reason for this 'trend' according to your link:
" . . . fox-news-primetime-lineup-delivers-highest-ratings-in-network-history"
hope this clarifies your concern
and thanks for letting me know you were confused by my answer
CHRISTIANE,
If my brother had read your link about the father who had been separated from his family, committed suicide, he would guarantee he was killed by police.
He was almost suffocated by them in a restraining device. A medic yelled, “He’s dying; you’ve got to take this off.” (If he had died, they’d hung him and proclaimed “Suicide”.)
In the first place, out of the hundreds or thousands that’s been separate, how many committed suicide? NONE
The police report said there was blood on the floor, and something twisted around his neck. HUH?
Christiane, but it’s a good story to blame on Trump; right?
Hey REX RAY,
I think the man was suffering from a very deep depression. As to the degree of suffering of any parent whose child is taken from them forcibly, I can only imagine. I know myself that if anyone had taken one of my infants from my arms, it would have killed me. Would I have come north to the border with my child to seek asylum from the gangs who control some cities and countries? Yes. Of course.
Would I have still come north knowing I might lose my baby? I would have thought twice about it yes,
and maybe that is why Trump did this: hope that people would NOT come to seek help from us.
Who knows the hearts of people, REX RAY? God judges us.
Do you want to know how I feel about the poor man who lost his son?
And why I say that our nation needs a Nathan to arise now ?
Take a look at these verses:
"2 Samuel 12 King James Version (KJV)
12 And the Lord sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the Lord liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man.
REX RAY, I think the 'guilt' has long since gone past Trump and become a collective guilt and now we as a nation need to be called to account for the way we have treated parents and children who loved one another.
Trump? He is only a symptom of a much deeper racism and xenophobia, I think. He has fostered fear and hatred for 'the brown people' from below the border and our country has reacted to this by abusing innocent children whose hearts were broken when they were taken from their mothers and fathers. We need to repent and make reparation for our inhumanity to these little ones. Not even enough soap and tooth brushes and diapers were provided for the littles, so they have suffered twice over: physically and emotionally.
God have mercy on us all. WE as a nation need a 'Nathan'.
I think we can all agree that Trump is NOT a 'King David', no.
CHRISTIANE,
I woke up early this morning thinking about why I believe the “suicide” was murder by police. WHY WERE THE POLICE CALLED?
Christiane, I’ll bet you’d be like me if our children were taken from us, we’d be angry; so angry we’d be physical fighting whoever was taking them. It wouldn’t surprise me if the guy had hurt some so much, they called the police. (If someone is in depression, a counselor or preacher is called; not police. I’ll bet he fought the police also.)
Now, you say Trump is not a King David. I’m glad.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriah_the_Hittite
“David murders him by proxy, ordering all of Uriah's comrades to abandon him in the midst of battle, so that he is killed by an opposing army. Following Uriah's death, David takes Bathsheba as his eighth wife.”
P.S.
I asked who were you going to vote for, but you replied: “All will vote as Americans: ‘upon honor and conscience’.”
That’s dodging the question. I think you’re afraid if you pick any Democrat, so much dirty truth can be said against them it would make Trump look like an angel.
Hi Christiane,
No, your reply did not address my question. The article says Fox News ratings are way up, which means they are getting many new viewers from somewhere. Meanwhile, CNN and MSNBC ratings are going down, which means they are losing viewers. The answer cannot simply be that Fox News viewers dont have access to common information because it does not explain why non-Fox viewers are becoming Fox viewers. And it does not explain the loss of viewers for CNN and MSNBC.
Rex said: " I think you’re afraid if you pick any Democrat, so much dirty truth can be said against them it would make Trump look like an angel."
Looks like Trump's incompetent CDC and devious DOD has set him up to look like Satan himself.
https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-02-26-trump-insists-america-very-very-ready-for-any-coronavirus-pandemic.html
Hope not, but it appears we're in for a rough ride, especially the elderly and those who have challenged immune systems (like me). My friend runs a company who has multiple vendors in China and it's a very bad situation over there. Definitely a good time to pray that the Father delivers us from evil....
Ken
See also: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/coronavirus-hiv-mutation-suggests-nearly-1000x-more-likely-sars-infect
What the heck?
"Follow CDC’s recommendations for using a facemask.
CDC does not recommend that ***people who are well*** wear a facemask to protect themselves from respiratory diseases, including COVID-19.
Facemasks should be used by people who show symptoms of COVID-19 to help prevent the spread of the disease to others. The use of facemasks is also crucial for health workers and people who are taking care of someone in close settings (at home or in a health care facility)."
From the horses mouth: https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/about/prevention-treatment.html
Ken
Hello out there REX RAY,
actually what you had said was this:
"Well, old friend, you haven’t said who you’re going to vote for"
which is not the same thing as asking who I am going to vote for . . .
and SINCE we haven't had the conventions yet to determine the actual candidates for each party, I will wait and THEN, I will choose a candidate to support with my vote.
as far as all of us voting 'upon honor and conscience' that phrase means to me that we have conscientiously thought about the importance of our vote, that it is our civic duty, and that we know that many have died for our freedom to choose and therefore each of our votes has a special and honorable weight . . . so we think about what is best for the country that our soldiers died for . . . and when we vote, we are at peace with the decision because we have done our best in their memory also.
There is a lot that goes into choosing who we support, and I think we ought to take it to heart that we owe it to the ones who came before us to preserve our country as a nation under law.
End of soap-box speech for today. Yep.
Have you read Wade's new posting on the coronavirus epidemic panic?
This is going to be an interesting test for observing how we can still handle a crisis in THIS country that threatens us all. Wade's post is a thoughtful one, as most of his are.
Hope you are doing well.
Sorry, Ken F
the truth is I must not be understanding your questions well enough to respond.
What specifically is it that you want to know?
Hi Christiane,
I am trying to understand the connection between the ratings trends and you suggesting that some people don't have access to certain information from certain websites. If Fox is gaining viewers from other sources, are you saying it is caused by those non-Fox viewers not having info avaible on the internet, and therefore becoming Fox viewers?
In my opinion, all of the major media outlets are for-profit businesses whose primary product is entertainment. As a culture, we want to be entertained by news amd opinion. There is a demand for sensationalism and each of the outlets provide their own version of what they think will best meet that need. For example, do any of the major news network not have some kind of a "breaking news" announcement at least every 10 minutes? Why the need for nearly constant updates like this?
I think the reason for the ratings trends is not the lack of availability of information available via web sites. Rather, it is driven by customer demand. If our culture demanded balanced and nonsensational news the major outlets would provide it. They don't because there is not much demand for it.
Hello Ken F
thank you for responding . . . yes, I think I see your point, that 'ratings' indicate something of what our society has become
actually 'entertainment' does seem to draw the crowds and what is 'extreme' or 'controversial' may be more interesting than the regular day-to-day news, sure
I think these days, the ONLY way to get 'the bigger picture' is to examine various media sources and then compare and contrast them, and we can also try to sort out what the 'agendas' are and what is is that WE consider 'extreme' . . . I suppose there must be something that draws people to one 'side' or to another 'side', that maybe it is a 'tribal' thing,
but one RED warning light is when a media source claims they are the ONLY true source and that everyone else is 'wrong' or worse: out to mislead the public . . . when this happens, I would wonder why this media source needs to carve out a following by dissing other sources;
and to add more temptation: such a media source may structure around playing to peoples' prejudices and fears, while offering 'reports' or 'pundits' who feed those prejudices and fears;
but always there is the 'warning': don't watch any other stations, we are ONLY 'true' voice of information
yep, I would be suspicious of that kind of media site
as for 'high ratings' of one station over another? People like to have their ears tickled and no one wants 'bad news' that puts their 'hero' into a bad light, especially if the news is true (hence, my example about the death of the distraught father after family separation trauma)
The STRANGE thing now is that you can't recognize similarities in how a news story is presented, and Fox News sounds like it's on a different planet, while the other major stations have a very different viewpoint entirely.
So our media is divided in ways that further our own social divisions. Which is a goal of the Russian defense ministry: to create chaos in our land between its people
thanks again for commenting
Rex, Christiane has already said on imonk that she is voting for Biden. She must of changed her mind. She said he was what the country really needed. Perhaps Christiane does not remember saying that but neither would Biden.
Hi Christiane,
Why do you suppose this poll shows that Americans' trust for Donald Trump is more than twice that of the news media?
https://medium.com/digital-vault/morning-consult-poll-only-8-trust-news-media-to-do-the-right-things-91a78ba3654d
Hello Ken F
I would consider the 'source' of this 'poll'.
I've been trained to know that some provide 'polls' and represent them as 'authoritative', but upon examination, there is little back-up information provided.
Tell me more about your 'source' and why you trust this source? And thanks for communicating.
Hi Christiane,
Here is the source for that survey:
https://morningconsult.com/form/most-trusted-brands-report-download/
This site claims that source is not right or left and has a good record for being factual:
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/morning-consult/
Why do you think that survey shows the media is trusted even less than Trump?
Hello Ken F
I'm not sure how that works, exactly, but this is an interest discussion on that very topic:
https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/trump-lies-research/
I think many know that he 'exaggerates' or 'mis-speaks' or whatever excuses are given, even 'that is how he is';
but for sure, his follower fall in line and will not criticize him for fear of appearing 'disloyal' . . .
I guess in Trumpism, 'loyalty' to HIM is the main thing;
not loyalty to the truth.
Hi Christiane,
Given the fact that Trump tells so many things that are not true, why do you think he is trusted more than the news media? I don't think it's possible to blame him for this. One would think that the more he lies the less he would be trusted. And having a trust level of only 20% reflects this. But the news media only scores 8%. How is it possible that they score so low? The fault must be with the news media itself. How did the group as a whole become so untrusted? And what should they do to restore trust?
I don't think that even his followers actually 'believe' in half of what he says. He says what some people like to hear. If they respond positively to that, then maybe it's more wishful thinking than 'trust', as Trumpism points to a very definite kind of 'America' which is so very different from what the 'greatest generation' knew.
You are familiar with how 'polling' can be used to manipulate people? For example, an advertiser may say five out of seven dentists approve of XYZ Toothpaste, but when you investigate the sample size, the advertiser may have selected a field of only seven to question. . .
It's good to have confidence in some polls, if you know how they are researched and by whom, but even then, a poll is simply a 'snapshot' in time rather than something to be held up as 'proof' for an extended period of time. I'm sure you are familiar with all of this, but I'm letting you know that I am aware of it also.
I don't think trump is 'trusted', no, not when he throws people under the bus so easily and has had to pay off his mistresses so they wouldn't 'spill the beans' about his affairs with them. . . . I'd say people WANT what he is selling, but I don't myself want this for my country, no. I don't hold to wanting my country to be 'trumpist' instead of under the rule of law. I do't think most Americans do want Trumpism instead of their own country.
Hi Christiane,
You keep focusing on Trump and his followers rather than the news media. As bad as Trump'a trustabilty is at 20%, one would think the news media would be much higher. But instead it is much lower. Such dismal trust in the media cannot be coming from just one side and it cannot be caused solely by Trump. The poll was conducted by a group that is considered factual and centered (neither right or left), which gives the poll some credibility. The fact that Hollywood scores even lower than the news media gives credibility to my theory that people want entertainment more than they want to trust the source of that entertainment. Unless the news media finds a better econimic model to follow, I believe they will just keep pumping out stuff that caters to their base.
Ken F
I do believe that there is a kind of honor among professional journalists that is connected up to the 'profession' itself, as a 'free' press does know that it fulfills a very valuable role in our freedoms.
I'd say the first thing to go when a dictator assumes power is the freedom of the press, for a good reason: a free press EXPOSES the corrupt goings-on of a dictator, so the people KNOW what their leadership has become.
As I have said before, there is ONE network, owned by someone who is not American, that has worked very hard to discredit other major networks and build itself up into something 'trustworthy'. But in order to do this, the network did attempt to destroy the credibility of the other networks by innuendo and snark and lies . . . it was quite a campaign. So now, you can tune into this network and it doesn't even seem like you are on the same planet as the other major networks.
The 'media' is a 'multi-layered' beast, so you've got pundits on radio, on telly, in print, and social media also.
People must be VIGILANT in a free country to recognize that some 'messengers' have agendas that are 'loyal' to a system other than our free way of life in this country. So, in schools, children and young people are taught to 'examine' sources and by the time of high school, they can get pretty good at picking out who is 'snowing' folks and who is not.
Vigilance is one of the prices we pay for freedom.
The media cannot be judged as a 'whole' entity, which I think is how you want me to see it and which I know would be impossible for me, as some news 'sources' are alien to our country's interests, and we are being BOMBARDED with input right now from Russia into our social media, so that you cannot recognize easily when something is coming out of Russian security systems,
so if you want to ask about a SPECIFIC SOURCE, I think I might able to respond with more specificity. Does this explanation help some?
BTW, even Fox News has SOME newcasters most Americans trust, and its part of their credibility that they don't diss other networks . . . they just report the news, and they ask the hard questions even when the powerful criticize them for it.
Our media is under attack, our court systems, our judges, our military's honor, our FBI, our CIA, our INTEL, our network of diplomats is devastated now, our alliances have been attacked by the right wing, and who is getting praised by some who ought to know better?
Take a look:
https://youtu.be/GH9017Qaby8
Ken, Putin is the ENEMY of our nation's way of life. IF people are buying it that 'Russia is our friend', they have been sold a bill of goods. Getting a conspiracy theory worked up by Russian security and taught by a right wing pundit is a huge RED LIGHT for any American to take note of.
Remember when it was suggested we need to get out of NATO? Who do you think that benefits? Yep. Putin.
We need to be vigilant. Examining all media sources. Comparing them, asking the right questions like 'where does THIS come from?' and when we find out if something that praises Putin or suggests we need to please Putin, any American ought to sit up and take notice because something is rotten in any media source that sells Putin's goals to our people..
Rex Ray
"Leading candidate Bernie Sanders? His program is one step from Communism with an increase in taxes that would take the world to pay for."
Universal healthcare/education is not anything close to communism. Your rhetoric is a typical uneducated response to something that scares you.
This whole statement is the greatest example of uneducated fear mongering that flows from the lips of fear based brainwashing.
By your comments most of the world is on the brink of communism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_universal_health_care
My husband just ran into a guy who had to go to an ER in LA. He sat waiting in the ER for 5 hours before being seen. Was seen for a few minutes and prescribed ibuprofen. That visit cost him 28 thousand dollars. On his itemized list they charged him $350 for ibuprofen.
Last year that hospital profited 2 billion dollars.
And yet you seem to have no issue with that, but you think paying your taxes for medical treatment for all is next to communism.
I guess my almost communist government who just paid for my 5 day hospital stay, numerous scans and tests and subsequent surgery with medication which cost me a whopping ZERO DOLLARS, is evil.
ok then. Shake my head.
bunkababy,
Your link listed Mexico as ‘free healthcare’. If it’s so great, why are they risking jail to come to America that doesn’t have it?
The link below, tells of many links that tell the cost of Berny Sanders program.
https://www.google.com/search?sxsrf=ACYBGNR0aAOxEfdoB3s1TYTfW-n5arKPrw%3A1583151983245&source=hp&ei=b_tcXo2yDJGksAXv7IOgAg&q=what+would+bernie+sanders+programs+cost&oq=What+would+Bernie+Sanders+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.5.0i131j0l6.2696.17298..28273...1.0..0.122.1038.12j1......0....1j2..gws-wiz.......35i39.BHIsCEm-gZg
This is one of those links:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/14/politics/bernie-sanders-proposals-cost/index.html
It states his program would cost 60 trillion dollars a year.
Remember a Government big enough to give all you want is big enough to take all you have.
Rex Ray
If you think people from Mexico are simply coming across your border exclusively for medical reasons that is a lame argument.
My post to you was not to sway voters to Bernie Sanders.
My point is that in general Americans are not educated on what socialism and communism is. The mere mention of universal healthcare and immediately COMMUNISM is right behind it. WRONG It's so WRONG. if people really understood what it was you would never link the two.
Fear of change, the unknown, and fear of government overrides the simplicity of universal healthcare benefits.
You fear losing control which is ridiculous, and heaven forbid paying a bit more tax so everyone can get the healthcare they need, without losing everything they have.
The whole point of listing the wiki page was to see how many countries have universal healthcare or forms of it and the correlation that they are not remotely close to communism.
That was the point.
bunkababy,
You said, “paying a bit more tax so everyone can get the healthcare they need, without losing everything they have.”
That sounds so heroic; about what was written on Hitler’s solder’s belt buckles: “In God we trust”
Does 60 trillion dollars sound like “paying a bit more tax”?
Rex Ray
Your response is so typical. Go straight to the worst case scenario. Go straight to Hitler. FEAR MONGERING at it's finest.
Because lets see, Fance, UK, Australia, Sweden , Denmark, Canada, Norway, Finland, New Zealand,Japan, Italy , Iceland,Israel,Spain even Saudi Arabia, plus many more countries are all just on the cusp of wearing Hitler on their belt buckles. You have believed the lies so long there is no way in hell you can even think there is a way of doing stuff other than what your fears tell you.
Your response is exactly the brainwashing that I speak of. ALL the other countries who use this system must all be wrong, and be communists. right?
Not at all that Americans might be wrong in what was sold to them as truth right?
This is why it is almost impossible to talk with an American on these issues. The indoctrination of fear, and lack of education is sinking your country into despair and you just can't see it.
Because well, socialism and communism....did it every occur to you that the system you have is driving you deep into the same outcome as communism? Poor get poorer, rich get richer, and soon everyone suffers except the rich and the government?
Do your really think IN God we TRust on your dollar is anything different than on a belt buckle?
Oh and by the way.
I don't think America will ever get universal healthcare. No hospital making 2 billion in profit is ever going to go back on that.
No doctor is ever going to choose a regulated system of earning when they have the chance to be millionaires.
Healthcare shouldn't be a business. It's about people being treated equally in the medical treatment they receive. Poor or rich it shouldn't matter what is on your pay stub. And that fundamental belief is what separates the US from any other nation who has universal healthcare.
bunkababy,
You might as well sign as “Anonymous” since there’s no way to find out who you are. What are you hiding?
Your saying, “It is almost impossible to talk with an American on these issues”, leads me to believe you’re not an American.
Your saying our money having “In God We Trust” is no different than Hitler having “In God We Trust” on soldiers’ belt-buckles, leads me to believe you’re not a Christian.
You want the Government to pay and run our healthcare? Let me tell you how ‘good’ the Government runs the Veteran’s Administration. (VA)
Being a veteran, I waited two years for a left knee replacement. During that time, I favored that leg by climbing stairs etc. with my good leg. Then my right knee deteriorated so much, it hurt more than the first knee. I was going to the Bonham VA, but the Dallas VA had to approve knee replacements.
The Bonham x-ray technician, had sent x-rays to Dallas of my left knee that showed bone on bone. Later he sent x-rays to Dallas of my right knee that showed bone on bone. Dallas replied they wanted both knees in the same x-ray. The Bonham technician told me that Dallas was stalling as he had seen it before. Dallas sent me a 90-day supply of a salve to rub on my knees. I paid a Doctor in a non-VA hospital for knee replacements.
I’ll describe five days I spent in the Dallas VA hospital for Cellulitis which is a painful bacterial skin infection on my ankle.
I arrived at two PM, and didn’t get anything to eat until breakfast.
My roommate was in such pain, he groaned and moaned all night. I walked the halls and ‘waiting rooms’ trying to find a place to sleep. I returned at five in the morning and fell asleep from exhaustion.
It’s recommended my ankle should be higher than my head, but they kept it lower.
They put a drip-drip IV in my arm. After three days, they changed the ingredients because they said the last was better.
On the second day a doctor took blood and sent it off to put some ingredient in it that would trace infection after it was put back in me.
On the third day, a different doctor said he was dismissing me. I said, “But what about tracing the infection?” He said, “We’re canceling that test.”
On the fourth day, an order was given for x-rays of my ankle, but they only took x-rays of one finger.
On the fifth day, the ‘test of my treated blood’ was put in me, but the doctor that knew how to know the results had gone home since it was Saturday. I was dismissed that day, and I have pictures that show my ankle was worse than when I went in. I paid the VA $1,700.
P.S.
On the fifth day, the ‘test of my treated blood’ was done by a big long ‘cylinder’ machine that took ‘picture x-rays’ or something. I asked the technician what did they show, and he said, “I’ve worked here 20 years but knowing that is above my paygrade.”
He agree with me the VA had ‘too many cooks in the kitchen’.
On the other hand, not counting people like me (staying overnight) they saw over 3,000 a day.
I felt sorry for my roommate’s wife who was in a wheelchair. She told her husband she parked their car in a handicap parking spot and put her handicap sign on the mirror, but their daughter had removed it because she said it would be stolen.
Their car was impounded. It cost over a hundred dollars retrieve it. She said, “That’s not a lot of money, but it is when you don’t have it.”
Their young boy sang the words: “South Oak Clift where there ain’t no money!”
Rex Ray
I am truly sorry for your horrible experience. Nobody should be treated in such a disgusting manner.
If you had read all of my comments above you would have read that I have no American vote, that I cannot vote. If you had understood the nuances of "your" "you" in any context it would have been clear all along I am not American, I am Canadian. I am not hiding anything.
If you had read about my experience of my hospital stay at Christmas time , I spent 5 days in the hospital and got surgery without a dime out of my pocket. I am not trying to hide the fact I am not American.
This is no conspiracy. I am bunkababy and comment on other blogs and places I like under that name.
I have had universal healthcare my whole life. When I am sick I go see a doctor. I have been treated extremely well. I have had 4 c-sections, now another surgery and freaking probably 5 ER visits in the last 2 yrs. I have chronic shoulder issues due to falling off a ladder and breaking my upper arm and dislocating it. I have had pain management at the ER for it numerous times. In the last year alone I have had 3 ECG's done, 3 x rays, many many blood tests, ultra sounds, CT SCAN done just to make sure my gallbladder and consequent pancreatitis was not really a heart attack.
With all of those tests I had my blood taken numerous times. I have had excellent healthcare that covers all bases Just by walking into our local ER.
My daughter had a brain injury and we had zillions of DR.s ER visits. over a 2 yr period. And without one shred of thought about cost or worry about paying for any of the tests, medications, or doctors who specialized in areas that needed testing.
Our lab work is done for free, we just walk into a lab show them our card and we get our blood drawn. ONly once have I had an extra test done that I had to pay out of pocket. It was $30.
My husbands dad had a triple bypass while visiting another state and didn't pay a dime. He was also a veteran of WW2 and got excellent home care through our Veterans assistance programs. He got home care when he started to suffer with dementia and they paid for his old age home when it was clear he was a danger to himself.
I have two friends now receiving cancer treatment. One had colorectal cancer, and has undergone radiation/chemo/ surgery.
My other friend got diagnosed with Multiple Myeloma in August and has had chemo, and now going in for stem cell treatment.
And you know what? Nobody has had to pay anything out of pocket. Not a dime.
No co pays, no deductibles, no insurance company or hospital denying treatment.
So while some people complain up the ying yang about our healthcare, because people complain about everything we have a great system. And when you need treatment you get it.
None of my friends or my family have ever had money issues or stuff like that. The only problem illness causes is missing work. And all people who fall sick have that issue.
So while your complaints about the VA being government run and being a mess, maybe just maybe some of the 748 billion dollars poured into your defense budget for 2020 should be put into the VA to care for it's veterans.
I have been to the US and seen Veterans living on the streets of Seattle, amputated, wheeling their rickety wheel chairs down the sidewalk. It is stunningly shocking.
Your horrible situation is not the experience of me or my friends. And if I have to wait to be seen in the ER for up to 4 hrs because my situation is NOT dire, I count my lucky stars I will NEVER walk out worrying about payment. Nor will my kids or grandkids.
While most people on here put part of their name or a fake name I don't know why you think I should out my legal name on a world wide forum. It's kinda ridiculous.
Again your experience with government VA care is atrocious but not indicative of a properly managed universal healthcare program.
Bunkababy,
Thanks for the ‘sympathy’.
(In 1954, my cousin, Claude Hicks, went with us on a bear hunt in Quinhagak, Alaska. He was in World War II. At 93, he’s lost his mind, and the VA hasn’t paid a dime to care for him.
I went to the VA to ask why. They said, he could live in a retirement home for Veterans, but the cost would be more than where he is now.)
You said, “And you know what? Nobody has had to pay anything out of pocket. Not a dime.”
I know you’re referring to patients, but SOMEONE pays.
I’m glad Bernie Sanders didn’t win the Democratic race. His ‘free care’ would cost tax payers 60 trillion a year.
Rex Ray
We pay out of our taxes. But I would rather pay out of taxes than pay lump sums of money to corrupt insurance companies and hospitals for profit.
Why on God's green earth are a few ibuprofen tablets $350.00 in an LA hospital? My friend's chemo medicine in the states would cost 2100.00 a month , here she doesn't pay for it. It is supplied by our medical system.
Your system is completely corrupt and the people lose and companies win.
I got totally , gloriously saved in 1974 , at the end of the Jesus movement and was led to a wonderful non denominational fellowship . Eventually we went into the Christian Growth Ministries Fort Lauderdale full strength shepherding movement. I know the damage first hand and the seductive allurement to misguided use of authority. I also know the redemptive , healing , restorative , loving , merciful , and endless love God has for each of His children. I read Wades book. I have two in my office as go to references not arms length from my right had. See I lived it and walked with my Father into restoration long before this book was written. I have given one of his books to a friend. For those wounded and in need of restoration I highly recommend this book. To leaders in the Body of Christ I also think this book would be a necessary read. When Jesus was talking to Peter He asked Him over , "Do you love Me "...Then feed My sheep. Whose sheep are we....thankfully we are His.
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