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| Dr. David Garrison |
I believed the Bible then, and I believe the Bible today.
However, I don't believe so much anymore in the so called "conservative" takeover of the SBC. A few of my moderate friends tried to warn me back then. "Wade, fundamentalists love to fight. You may think you are helping to recover a belief in the infallibility of Scripture, but when the so-called "moderates" are gone from the SBC, those leading this fight will turn against anyone who doesn't agree with their interpretations of the Bible."
Paige Patterson at War with the International Mission Board
The International Society of Christian Apologetics held their annual meeting April 10-11, 2015 in Charlotte, North Carolina. Dr. Paige Patterson, President of Southwestern Theological Seminary, spoke on the subject: The Consequences of Revolution: The Conservative Resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention: A Case Study.
I recently discovered this speech on YouTube. One must remember that this speech was delivered over eight months after David Platt was appointed the new president of the Southern Baptist International Mission Board. In an hour long delivery, Dr. Patterson points out the problems he sees in the Southern Baptist Convention, including those who are charismatic, Calvinistic, and otherwise in ecclesiological error. However, it is what Dr. Patterson said about the International Mission Board that astounded me.
Paige Patterson declared he and others are in a "battle" against the International Mission Board and against the leading Southern Baptist missiologist and global missions strategist, David Garrison, Ph.D (University of Chicago). Dr. Garrison, author of the bestselling books Church Planting Movements: How God Is Redeeming a Lost World, and A Wind in the House of Islam, lives in Colorado with his wife Sonia where he serves as the Southern Baptist International Mission Board’s Global Strategist for Evangelical Advance.
I want you to hear Dr. Patterson in his own words. Watch the brief four minute video tape below.
Dr. David Garrison of the International Mission Board is highly educated, supremely respected, and most importantly, Spirit anointed. He is a Southern Baptist who cares about the lost. He not only professes belief in the infallibility and inerrancy of the Bible, he is a Southern Baptist who actually lives out that he believes. In other words, David is actually doing the Great Commission, not just preaching it.
Yet, Dr. Patterson says he is in a battle with Dr. Garrison. Good grief.
I am amazed that in a day when Southern Baptist leaders are urging us to "give more" to the International Mission Board, when Southern Baptist leaders are shaming Southern Baptists for giving just 2% to their local churches, and when Southern Baptist leaders are all about "people in the pews not doing enough," not one Southern Baptist leader has called out Paige Patterson for his provocative, public, and pugilistic words about the IMB and their global strategist for church planting.
Look, again, at what Dr. Paige Patterson said
"I just shake my head and I say, 'How many wars you got left in you boy? Here you're going to have to fight again. Unfortunately we got about 750 missionaries that need to be brought home. Uh, either they are in this movement (the church planting movement) or else they're singing "Stand'n on the Promises" while they're only "sit'n on the premises." And, uh, in either event they need to be brought home. And, uh, so we are fighting another grand battle, this one more subtle than the other one actually. And so I ask you to pray for us as we fight the next battle. It is forever the devil on parade."I've taken several courses on body language. I'm not an expert, but I do know more than the average person. During the entire speech Dr. Patterson has a body tic expressed by the involuntary pushing out his right elbow and the raising of his right shoulder (and every now and then his left elbow and left shoulder) as if he is pushing someone off him or elbowing people back. It's the tic of a person who sees himself constantly in a battle others and is in effect saying "Get off me. I'm the boss. Get back and do what I say."
He closes his diatribe against the International Mission Board with many tic movements indicating a person clearly reading to push people off and around. I think its high time Southern Baptists said "enough."
I suggest that the best way to get more money from the average Southern Baptist is for Southern Baptist leaders - Presidents, agency heads, and others -- to tell aging "heroes" and "icons" that the "war" and the "battles" are over.
A house divided will never stand.
91 comments:
Wade,
"A house divided will never stand." So true, but, it usually morphs into something rather ugly, because it replicates itself,like a parasitic amoeba, as the parent touches clean areas.
Wade,
This was 5 months ago. I haven't heard anything about Paige Patterson's following up on this.
Also, I would think that David Garrison would be one of those who is being moved to a back burner with the changes being instigated by the new regime of IMB and that would be consistent with Paige's concern about him.
Any news updates?
RRR,
My point is that we do not need "war" or "battles" against the IMB when we are asking for money and support. The two don't go together.
I also would be very, very surprised if David Garrison were ever moved to a "back burner."
Hi Wade - why on earth does he pronounce "Muslim" as "Mos-lum". He's an educated man. Masterful speaker and orator. And he can't properly pronounce "Muslim"?
Just curious.
PP grossly mischaracterized CPM strategy, the CAMEL method, and insider movements. He either doesn't fully inderstand them or isn't summarizing them accurately in order to make his view seem more valid than it actually is. Disturbing. A simple hour long conversation with Garrison would clarify a lot for Patterson.
Does Patterson really think Garrison would knowingly and continually advocate a strategy that resulted in a majority of house churches falling into serious foundational doctrinal error (Benny hinn, Creflo dollar, etc.) soon after being established? "Love always trusts", and PP needs to trust Garrison is advocating strategies he genuinely believes will result in evangelical baptist churches.
Garrisons record isn't perfect, but he is still a very good missiologist, and a man who, more importantly, loves Jesus above all else. PP owes him an apology after this drive by.
Lastly, if PP has a difficult time working with someone as closely doctrinally aligned with him as Garrison, there are few people on the field PP could work with at all.
-former IMB M, still on field in SA
I hope you are right, Wade, in presuming that David Garrison would maintain his influence and be called upon to continue to be a major contributor in the IMB strategy. He's a great guy. We'll see.
Anonymous makes a very good assessment of Paige Patterson's total distortion of the "House Church" planting and "Camel" methods in an attempt to give credence to his call to do battle with IMB and David Garrison. Nobody ever suggested that you just choose the best in a group to serve as leader and then leave them. The intent is to follow the New Testament method of spending time with them, training them, nurturing them and then easing them in the leadership role as you appropriately back off and turn the work over to the new church. The Camel method does indeed call for the Gospel bearer to be sensitive and minimize the cultural differences but the Muslim audience knows that you are follower of Jesus though you don't put "Christian" up in glaring lights.
I think Brother Patterson knows all this but he ignores the truth of it because it would diminish his agenda to acknowledge it.
Anonymous IMB missionary,
"if PP has a difficult time working with someone as closely doctrinally aligned with him as Garrison, there are few people on the field PP could work with at all."
That, sir, in one sentence, is my point.
The SBC will never prosper by the attitudes or speeches or programs of its leadership. Including the one in the video.
It will be prospered when the SBC leads its churches to make disciples of the 16 million people God already sent to us, here. Who are 2/3 to 3/4 absent from church any Sunday.
Little one-location example: I offered a course called "Conversational Witnessing" this fall. Teaching a simple method to talk to anyone, anywhere, about your faith. Comfortably, low pressure, without any aids like a tract or a Bible in hand. Of a church with about 3,000 members, 1,000 attendance, exactly three people signed up.
In the SBC here at home, the enlisted army has gone home, and leaves the war to the generals. How on earth is that, making disciples? Disciples as in The Great Commission?
Confusing.
We just got through railing against an IMB sponsored 210 million dollar structural deficit due to IMB mismanagement.
Today, were invoking the name of Paige Patterson (generally understood to be a guy concerned primarily about HIS legacy) in order to defend the older strata of leadership at the IMB (i.e Garrison) who are the primary prospects for a "VRI".
Either dismiss the notion entirely that this is also about the "kind" of missionaries being deployed or reserve the notion of possibility.
Picking and choosing who should stay and who should go (apart from age) seems an exercise in futility at this point, Patterson notwithstanding.
How Old is this statement by Garrison?
I would love to see the stats on house church failure and supposed pretending to be a Muslim to win them to Jesus. Let's get some real facts here not just speculaion.
I don't think Paige Patterson needs to worry about his legacy.
Whenever anyone sees his image in the glorious stained glass window at SWBTS, they will be reminded of this truly great man who once sent the respected and beloved Hebrew professor Dr. Sheri Klouda packing whilst her husband was so very ill. Paige Patterson was willing, for the sake of the gospel (!), to violate his own oral contract with her, and to risk a law suit to proceed with purifying the faculty of women professors daring to teach men. This, of course, took great courage, and the help of a very cooperative judge. Long after Dr. Patterson is gone to his well-deserved reward, people will remember what he did as soon as he came to a place of power in SWBTS. You can bet there are plenty of people out there who will see to it no one ever forgets how he rid SWBTS of Dr. Klouda.
Am I crazy or is it very odd how Patterson declares about 700 missionaries need to come home, and a few months later Platt declares the IMB will have to cut their staff by about that same amount due to financial reasons?
Anonymous,
I doubt there is a correlation. Platt's concerns are fiscal; Patterson's are doctrinal.
How about this?
What if Patterson is both RIGHT as well as being the figurative MONSTER BEHIND THE PROBLEM?
He's not attacking doctrine here, he's attacking philosophy of MISSIONS.
Would have expected him to speak up "doctrinally" about 10-15 years ago with some of the stuff coming out of Louisville.
Looks like Platt's problems may very well be both "fiscal" and "philosophical".
At the same time, if there is an ulterior motive in David Platt's strategy to diminish the segment of veteran personnel that have been on the field and implementing the "house church" and "Camel" methods one could see how this might accommodate Paige Patterson's stated concerns. There could be an entire shift in the current missions ideology. I believe that is the fear of a lot of missionaries.
Can see that as well RRR.
Thank you.
RRR and Scott: I do not believe David Platt has any ulterior motive. That is simply false. Look at the facts. David Platt has been nothing but forthcoming and honest. He did not make this mess. I don't believe that is the fear of a lot of missionaries either. Good grief. At least stick with the facts.
Paige Patterson is someone I do not admire in the least. I think he does more damage than he has ever done good. He needs to stop this and just get honest. That is something David Platt has done and Paige has always failed to do but has gotten a pass on.
Why is the word many and a lot used with no proof that is true. I think most people know the words a lot and many are just buzz words and like myself ignore such balderdash.
OK, I used the word most. :)
How sad it is to read about all this as it will only will continue to fuel the growing disinterest, indifference, and all out rejection of denominationalism. To me, this reflects the epitome and spirit of the Pharisees and Sadducees (instead of the Spirit of Christ) as they were known more for their arguments, in-fighting, distrust, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, misleading of others, disregard and disdain of sinful people (because in their minds, at least they are not as bad as . . . ____________ (fill in the blank). Is it any wonder that more and more people don't want to have anything to do with the church but are good with Jesus.
Again, it's sad but fewer and fewer Pastors, church leaders and members, could care less or AT ALL about these matters anymore. The only people who care about this anymore may be those who are aspiring to become denominational leaders via position, influence, prestige, or notoriety and would never dare speak against current leaders "for they loved human praise more than praise from God." John 12:43
What would God ever do if He didn't have these religious leaders fighting His battles for him, right? (said with great sarcasm)
Don't get me wrong, truth is worth fighting for but the question becomes who are they truly fighting? Is it really Satan or themselves? Don't forget to ask an even more important question of HOW are they fighting? In prayer an humility, in truth and love, or with a sharp, eloquent, two-edged tongue? Seems obvious to me that it's against each other and just as it has already been stated earlier, " . . . Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand." - Matthew 12:25b NIV
It's these kinds of scenarios that are leading more and more SBC churches to drop their affiliation with the SBC because not only is it a stumbling block for many people who have been judged, marginalized, rejected and deeply wounded at an SBC church where you must first believe and behave before you can belong, but even more importantly, these are NOT the attitudes and actions that Jesus was known for. Is it any wonder that the fastest growing segment of evangelical churches in the U.S. today are non-denominational churches? Will our identify be Jesus or our denomination? Some believe that we are well underway towards the beginning of the end of denominations. I couldn't begin to say if it is or it isn't but none of these "In-fights" help convince the world that we know God and/or belong to Jesus. How will they know? "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." - John 13:35
Wade,
Your point has been well made over the past 10 years. Thank you for being a voice for cooperation, and for truth.
RRR, ScottShaver, et al,
I do believe PP is speaking to Missiological issues. What's astounding is that despite the theological closeness, PP still can't support Garrison. Further, that he has stating he is fighting a battle (War?) against Garrison. I sincerely hope PP has attempted to connect with Garrison personally somehow over these issues before making such inflammatory public statements; and if not, then since. For now, I'm choosing to believe PP simply misunderstood Garrison if they spoke before this event and that all will be clarified soon with some kind of public statement from Patterson about his misunderstanding of these missiological strategies.
Awhile back when a Muslim student enrolled at SWBTS, PP and Wade had some kind of discussion that was made public by Wade regarding the issue and things remained civil. I hope the same happens with PP & Garrison. This warring is bad for everybody.
I don't know for sure, but I don't think Platt and PP are working together at all. Platt just doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to state differing private and public reasons for reducing the # of M's. I do believe it's strictly financial with Platt.
My hope is that the IMB will be able to strike the right balance of empowerment on the ground and oversight from regional offices. I think Platt is a guy who will strive for that balance, even though he may not always get it right.
In the same way, I believe Garrison strove the for the best combination of speed and discipleship in CP'ing, though things didn't always turn out perfectly, as I've heard he has spoken of in some settings.
So much more I want to say on these issues, but I fear I've already written much more than a "comment."
Cheers all,
Former IMB M, still on field in beautiful SA.
Wade,
You said: “I was convinced…at the time that our greatest enemy in the SBC was a denial of…inerrancy of God’s word…”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Statement_on_Biblical_Inerrancy
“The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy was formulated in October 1978 by more than 200 evangelical leaders at a conference sponsored by the International Council on Biblical Inerrancy (ICBI), held in Chicago.” Two of the signers were “Paige Patterson” and his wife “Dorothy Patterson”.
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html
“Apparent inconsistencies should not be ignored. Solution of them, where this can be convincingly achieved, will encourage our faith, and where for the present no convincing solution is at hand we shall significantly honor God by trusting His assurance that His Word is true, despite these appearances, and by maintaining our confidence that one day they will be seen to have been illusions.”
Wade, what’s the difference between errors in the Bible and illusions in the Bible?
Through the years “inerrancy” has been used as a ‘code word’ such as “Hail Hitler”.
This was seen in the response of the IMB when Patterson attacked them for having women in positions over men. Jerry Rankin’s said, “Why every one of us believes in inerrancy.”
Wade, I said all this to ask why you said “Dr. David Garrison…He not only professes belief in the infallibility and INERRANCY of the Bible…”
I’ve said it several times that because of the heartache and sorrow; I wish INERRANCY would go back from where it came from: the smiling lips of the devil.
I guess I am one who needs to be brought home. As I am "in the movement". Interesting to me that if there is a simple church community as part of a church planting type movement, the issue of gender conflict in leadership is pretty much naturally neutralized. Seems patterson wants to do away with one thing so he can keep fighting against the other.
Debbie,
Definition for "ulterior" ;" kept hidden in order to get a particular result".
David Platt does have "ulterior" motives. I think that in the technical sense of the word he admits that. Most managers/leaders with a vision do.
He has stated that he has not revealed the full picture of his intent. That DOESN'T mean, to me at least, that he's up to something sinister or evil or non-Christian. It means that he has not determined the entirety of his plan. He has said that too. It also means that perhaps he has determined that it is not appropriate to reveal all that he intends to do because some portions of his plan may be influenced by how other dynamics unfold; "hidden in order to get a particular result."
Anyone who believes that David Platt does not have intentions of making major changes in the basic way we do missions is not looking at things realistically. The methods in which we fund missionaries had begun to change prior to his arrival and will continue. It has also been made clear that we are going to a missionary force more reliant upon lay-missionaries, missionaries directly supported by individual churches and people serving in more short-term capacities. That much has been clearly stated.
David Platt certainly does have plans for change and he certainly has not revealed the full picture of his intent and he is making changes now that are consistent with his overall strategy. He began his assignment by saying, "I see things from a 40,000 foot altitude perspective." and now "We're viewing things from more of a 15,000 foot altitude perspective."
I sense that you take exception with my proposal that David Platt's plan may coincide with a remedy for Paige Patterson's concern, i.e., no "house church" method and no "Camel" method. My intent was not, necessarily, to suggest they're working together. I don't know if David Platt has ever met Paige Patterson. But David Platt's plan "might" inadvertently appease Dr. Patterson's concern if the DP plan does not expand in using these methods. Don't know.
From what we can observe it is looking like the intent is to diminish the number of veteran missionaries and transition our missionary force to reflect a newer, more short-term missionary force. David Platt would probably be more comfortable with that. It appears, to me at least, that it is to have a new approach that is ideologically different than our traditional approaches but consistent with David Platt's own vision for how things are to be done. That is why he has the position.
It's not the way I would do things but much of it is in response to the trend that is already taking place and has to be addressed.
To a hammer, everything is a nail.
Paige Patterson is like that hammer, and the IMB is like that nail.
This is not the first time Paige Patterson has pounded away on the IMB and its leaders. His shenanigans directed towards the IMB and its leadership go back to Jerry Rankin and further.
As for his "arm and neck tick," Paige Patterson does that all the time. Sometimes that tic grows to such a level of ferocity that it appears he is trying to flap wings and take flight. I have never thought about the body-language message it sends to those he is addressing. Pastor Wade, your theory about it has the ring of truth. By the way, watch some videos of Pentecostal TV preachers such as Dwight Thompson, Jimmy Swaggart, and Donnie Swaggart: They all strut around on the platform and do EXACTLY the same ticking as they preach.
In this day and age of modern communications I continue to wonder why the IMB 'powers that be' feel like they need to have so many meetings in RVA. This means all participants travel from the land where they are serving to the U.S. which is costly for the IMB but handy for the traveler who can stop along the way and visit relatives. It would be interesting to know how many travel more than once a year which is also a nice way to collect frequent flyer points, not for future IMB travel, but travel for other family members. Also, considering the cost of travel, how long will the IMB allow short term stateside every two years for families? There are more ways to reign in some of the expenses.
Debbie Kaufman:
To be honest and clear. I do not fault David Platt. He had nothing to do with the pattern.
I do think he's a Patsy within a system doomed to fail if "SBC" don't relearn what made the "Cooperative Program" WORK as devised by M.E. Dodd.
As for the spirits of Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong? They've long since left the building along with "trust" and "voluntarism".
Basically at this point, the whole building has been leveled. Trust, Respect for Autonomy, and responsibility will have to be re-erected if anything worth-while is to continue. IMO
Is Garrison over 50? :o)
Debbie,
Respectfully but realistically, you saying any "assumptions" are "FALSE" would conversely mean you've just "slandered" us if data proves the hypotheses to be accurate?
Read the transcript of Patterson but took me awhile to muster the intestinal fortitude to listen to the video.
Right or wrong about methodology, the FIRST ONE NEEDING to be "sent home" and "put out to pasture" for "sitting/squatting on the premises" et al is PAIGE HIMSELF!
Patterson: It is like listening to Boss Hogg. But it is also too bad that Platt's own church was not even a marginal supporter of the CP, He only saw the "beauty" of the CP when he was offered the job. After he was in danger in Dubai, of course. We are told Platt's Radical church did other mission things that are just as important as the CP ----they now want bailed out. So why is he there?
Lydia
Lydia: I am sorry but I can make no sense of your comment. None. If there was some truth to it, maybe I could.
Makes sense to me Lydia and I don't have a clue about any "danger in Dubai" :)
Scott: The problem with fighting in the denomination is so many statements are made based on lies. This is what is happening with Paige Patterson and has always been his MO. It is how others, although small in number, operate. I know my comments are less than charitable, but I've had it with lies that are told for no other reason than another's destruction. Unfortunately anyone can say anything whether it's true or not. Paige's "war" against David Garrison is not based on fact and it's done in the name of theology. The war against David Platt is based on lies. Maybe it is for 9even missiology, but it's wrong. When one has to lie and not be honest, that is wrong. I think it's sin. At least according to what I read in scripture and I'm sick and tired of it. Very sick and very tired of it. Platt and Garrison have a passion to see others come to Christ. That is important. Platt is taking heat for something that is not his fault, and has responded to concerns from thsoe in your and Lydia's corner and dealt with them honestly. Stop the rumor mongering. Both of you.
The Wartburg Watch > My, My Dubai: 9 Marks Played Hardball While Lifeway/ David Platt Stretched the Truth
A simple internet search reveals the above.
Debbie, I have no doubt it makes no sense to you.
See Ramesh's link above. Todd Wilhelm quoted David Platt, lived in Dubai at the time, attended church in Dubai and had a daughter at the conference. How is that "rumor"?
Platt was trying to get his American following, through a simulcast, to believe he was in danger and could " lose his life for Christ" there. His undisclosed location turns out to be the Dubai Hilton?. Dubai is where a family member of mine would stay on her trips home from doing medical work in Kabul, for some R&R....years ago now. So it was not hard for me to see what Platt was doing and to see were Wilhelm, who luves there, was coming from. In fact, I will go as far to say Platt dishonored the country he was visiting by claiming such.
So, what other things is he willing to stretch the truth concerning?
You have a tendency to call what you don't like, gossip or rumor. You have done that for years.
Lydia
Oops, I keep saying Hilton when I mean Marriott. Platt used Jesus Christ, Dubai and many followers who hang on his every word to produce a cheap and dishonest publicity stunt in order to promote himself. Lifeway was involved, too.
If that is what "leadership" is in the SBC these days, no thanks. But I do fear it has become the normal in the Christian celebrity circles. Which is what I also think Patterson (Boss Hogg) speech is all about in this OP. I think he is trying desperately to be relevant. Where are the men and women of integrity and character in the SBC?
Lydia
Two things here Lydia.
1. The testimonies and darkened faces were not testimonies from people from Dubai but from Muslims who converted from high risk countries. I believe this is the reason for the undisclosed location and the fact that it was being transmitted worldwide. Not something that was mentioned in the Wartburg piece. If you look on David Platt's site and on John Piper's site, they say that Dubai is free with giving the Gospel, but you cannot break their laws in doing so.
2. I believe David Platt and his passion for the lost. Pick a sermon to listen to, any sermon on missions by David Platt. His heart is beyond full and he and his church have done mega, mega things for missions that had nothing to do with his wanting to be called as President of the IMB. Again that is false.
Yes, I call things gossip that leave out facts. That twist as I believe you have here and other places. Yes I have done so for years. Telling the truth is who we are as Christians. No, I don't believe you do that Lydia. Where is this any different than Paige Patterson whom you criticize and although you are right to do so, I can't figure out why.
Ramesh, I was googling before it became known to do so. I have already done my research before I wrote what I did. I think many important facts were left out of the Wartburg blog which is why it was mentioned so little at the end. I trust Wartburg for information, but even they make mistakes and this article was no exception. There are high level risk areas, and this simulcast that failed because of technical difficulties was being shown shortly after Ramadan to many countries not just Dubai, which was also not mentioned in the article by Wartburg or the article it linked too.
http://www.bpnews.net/40959
BTW: The purpose of the secret church is not to be secretive, but to pray and minister to the persecuted. That is also not being told in these articles. A simple Googling of secret church will give you information.
The secret location could have also been because of reasons like this. David Platt didn't talk about it then or now. He has his reasons. I would not have known about it if I hadn't researched this in the last few days.
http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2015/04/church_at_brook_hills_receives.html
So yes I believe it is gossip you are promoting Lydia, as in the David Garrison story posted here, with Patterson giving few facts, so I believe the story you have talked about is not giving all the facts.
I also do not believe that David Platt became interested in the CP to get the job at the IMB as he had already committed himself to the CP long before being approached for a job he was not even seeking. This according to close friends that he confided in. And yes, a search will show this.
I believe that David Garrison is the right man for his job and everyone who are against both Platt and Garrison should cool their heels. Both of these men have a passion for the Gospel and Platt is leading well in a situation that he did not cause.
Alaskan in Texas,
I feel some ‘kinship’ with you as I’ve been to Alaska seven times and have a son born there. You are right that PP is like a hammer. Besides the IMB, another nail is women. Once he removed a podium from Southern Baptists Theological Seminary because it had been “contaminated” when the students expressed how great a speech was made by a woman.
Lydia, you expressed the need of integrity and character.
Debbie, you said “so many statements are made based on lies.”
I believe an example of both is when I asked PP if “The Criswell Study Bible” answered ALL the possible errors in the Bible or only some of them. He yelled to the crowd around him: “WE GOT ALL OF THEM!”
“What about the ruler’s daughter dead in Matthew but alive in Mark and Luke?”
He whispered: “We got all we could.”
ScottShaver,
I agree that PP should be first to be sent home. In 2004, he lied by telling the SBC the BWA was “gay friendly”. When PP fired a professor only because she was a woman, I suggested on Wade’s post we march around the campus but only one person said he would join me.
Hey! It’s never too late! Any takers?
As an IMB overseas worker for over 20 yrs. nothing is more disparaging then a non missionary who thinks he knows more about missions than missionaries telling other missionaries how they should do missions.
Debbie:
You keep talking to adults like children (i.e. "cooling heels") and they just may talk back to you like TRUMP. In many cases, "truth" with a "bite".
I believe it is time for Godly men and women of character and integrity to finally rise up and remove Paige Patterson. Enough with his slander, his lies, his extreme hubris, and destructive pride. Why have SBC leaders been such cowards for too long in regard to Patterson? Why is such a man of division, pride, and slander still in leadership? Few things in SBC life discourage and disappoint me than this fact alone. If social media existed 30 years ago to expose his lies and slander for what they are, I seriously doubt Patterson and men of his ilk and non-existent character would have positions of authority over anyone, much less "women." Wonder why SBC is at its all time low in baptisms, membership, support? Take a good look at Paige Patterson and lay it at his feet.
Spot on as usual Pastor Wade. This is one of your best posts ever.
"I believe it is time for Godly men and women of character and integrity to finally rise up and remove Paige Patterson."
Really? Don't think that is going to happen.
The heresy and doctrinal confusion aren't from Garrison but the T4T material.
"The heresy and doctrinal confusion aren't from Garrison but the T4T material"
How so?
Anonymous,
On T4T, no it's not perfect, but it's not fair to make such a short, definitive dismissal of it either.
Yes, one of T4T's cracks is it's potential to allow for people to enter leadership before they are ready; something the Bible clearly warns us about.
But, something great it emphasizes is the priesthood of every believer and the lay people don't have to get a authoritarian pastor's approval to go out and make disciples. This principle was life changing to some of my Christian friends in India where I taught T4T. Villages are reached now because T4T pointed out scripture that guided them to go make disciples in places too far away for the people to come into their wanna-be Megapastor's church.
As it relates to Wade's original post, let's not war against people or strategies with blanket, dismissive statements. Careful analysis of things like T4T or even people like Garrison is much more helpful.
Former IMB M, still in SA
I know David G. I have spent a bit of time discussing this issue about PP ( And his surrogates) with David.
First, PP is making a miss characterization of Camel, and CPM strategy. Second, David does believe in the inerrancy of scripture through and through.
David has made every effort to spend time ( In the past) discussing the CAMEL and CPM with the boys in Ft. Worth. At one point he spent 3 hours discussing these issues with a PP surrogate who at the time was at SWBTS.
David is respectful and gracious. He will talk to anyone and is simply passionate about reaching Muslim's. I respect David. You can disagree with him and he does not get all bent. I wonder if PP contacted David to discuss the issue before this article went to press. https://baptistnews.com/faith/missions/item/30470-paige-patterson-details-battle-at-imb
Additionally I travel all over N. Africa and the middle east. I know of NO IMB M's who say they are Muslim's in order to win converts. Actually, I have not met one yet who uses CAMEL. They know it , but that does not mean they use it.
Plus where does this 750 number come from? Has he interviewed all 4800 Units? Sorry this is a bit frustrating. Thx for posting this though, better to be aware than head in the sand. Sorry for the Annon but it must be so at this time.
Oh, I understand better now. I was thinking that when you, or whomever, made the comment:
""The heresy and doctrinal confusion aren't from Garrison but the T4T material" that you were suggesting that T4T was heretical or portrayed confusing doctrine. I had not seen that to be the case in the T4T material.
As far as T4T even being weak in positioning strong leaders over groups I really don't see that being the case when it's done properly, do you? You never leave the groups. I think it's a brilliant method for creating strong groups by the planter first "doing" the role of leadership, then "gradually transitioning the leadership tasks onto a person who demonstrates the potential for being the spiritual leader then "allowing them to assume more and more of the leadership roles while the Planter observes, corrects, assesses, adjusts, etc. Then the Planter turns that role over to the new leader while maintaining visitation, observation and meeting with them for counsel. Bring all the groups in together on occasion for fellowship, training and discussion.
What could be a better way, especially in places that are conducive to having small group churches?
I totally agree with the assessment of David Garrison. He is meek and wise and humble and intelligent and knows what he is talking about. He is red meat for predator power players of SBC.
"The testimonies and darkened faces were not testimonies from people from Dubai but from Muslims who converted from high risk countries. I believe this is the reason for the undisclosed location and the fact that it was being transmitted worldwide. Not something that was mentioned in the Wartburg piece. If you look on David Platt's site and on John Piper's site, they say that Dubai is free with giving the Gospel, but you cannot break their laws in doing so."
Did you read this from Piper who was also there?
http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/dubai-amazing-and-strategic-city
"Dubai is considered the fifth safest city in the world. There are no personal or income taxes in Dubai . It is hot and dry. On average, there are 3.7 inches of rain per year. The temperatures range from 92, as the average high, to 72, as the average low.
These are amazing facts. But greater yet is what God is doing among his people.
What God Is Doing in Dubai
Proselytizing is against the law in the UAE. But what that means in essence is: You can’t pay someone to convert (as if that were possible) or unduly coerce them to change religions. But speaking the gospel of Jesus Christ abounds."
Did you the video Piper shot from there...out in the open with camera crew and all? It would seem that if what you declare is true then based on what Piper said in it about that tower coming down, he would have been arrested and would still be imprisoned there.
Lydia
"I also do not believe that David Platt became interested in the CP to get the job at the IMB as he had already committed himself to the CP long before being approached for a job he was not even seeking. This according to close friends that he confided in. And yes, a search will show this."
I don't think he became interested in the CP to "get the job". I don't think that was necessary to the leaders. I think he became interested in it AFTER he was appointed. If he had committed himself to the CP, I am sure that would reflect Brook Hills CP numbers? If not, why? They certainly followed him on his "Radical" teaching.
"I believe that David Garrison is the right man for his job and everyone who are against both Platt and Garrison should cool their heels. Both of these men have a passion for the Gospel and Platt is leading well in a situation that he did not cause."
Your opinion/recommendation might be of use to others but I prefer to look at actions/behaviors/patterns and look for consistency in character and integrity when it comes to those who claim certain things.
Does anyone know if Garrison is over 50?
Lydia
" believe an example of both is when I asked PP if “The Criswell Study Bible” answered ALL the possible errors in the Bible or only some of them. He yelled to the crowd around him: “WE GOT ALL OF THEM!”"
Rex, Patterson has such little power these days I cannot believe Wade wasted this OP on him except maybe to shore up Platt. Patterson is not exactly reading a large audience these days. The numbers at SWBTS are a joke. Not sure many care that much except Wade and a few others. PP was running ahead of the firing ax for years. He seems to know where so many bodies are buried from the CR he always lands on his feet. But his hey day is all but over. He is not an elder statesmen or even considered a sort of "Dean" of the SBC.
The SBC action these days is with the rich and powerful YRR movement that includes CJ Mahaney, former "Apostle" of SGM family of churches, protector of child molesters and his new church which is now SBC, James McDonald of the elephant debt site and one who believes "congregationalism is from Satan" and their previous support and promotion of Mark Driscoll. It also includes Matt Chandler of TVC who believed in 9 Marks church discipline who insisted a young woman stay married to a pedophile. Oh, and JD Hall. And so on and on..... ad nauseum.
Creepy bunch. But it seems not much to write about here. :o) The catch phrase these days is to have "unity" with such types.
Lydia
Understand this morning that missionaries over 50 received their "VRI"s yesterday.
Southern Baptists doing what little they can in light of spilled milk. Shall they be asked to pour more on the ground. Why does it seem to me like every penny collected this year and next for Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong should go directly into the pockets (without middle men) of these returning "Volunteers"?
Don't know how young Neo-Cals affiliated with the SBC perceive all this, along with the denomination's history, but I'll bet there's tons of "liberals," "moderates," "traditionalists," and "fundamentalists" who feel like they've been gut-punched with the wind of seven generations knocked from their lungs.
RRR,
I hope you’re using reverse psychology by your doubts about the removal of PP expressed by John.
In 2005 at my brother-in-law’s church the question was asked why was the church going to vote on buying chandeliers when they were already bought. Pastor Harbor (got a PHD from SBTS) replied: “I’ve been trained how to run a church and I’ll run this church!”
Russell Dilday was President of SBTS for 16 years and never received one criticism from the Board even when he was fired in 1994. The Board was asked why they fired him.
“We don’t have to have a reason; we got the vote.” (As President of the SBC, PP had appointed enough fundamentalist on the Board.)
Dilday wrote a book, “Columns…Glimpses of a Seminary Under Assault”. One comment printed on the cover was made by a former President: “Russell’s book is a must-read for anyone who cares about what happens when a seminary is “highjacked” by an alien vision.”
One professor left to become a pastor. He wrote a paper that I fell in love with. He said it took several years to realize he had been brainwashed that the pastor was the ruler of the church.
I made a lot of copies of his paper and handed them out at Southwestern until someone told me I had to get permission. The ‘permission guy’ said I couldn’t do it. I complained that my missionary son had more freedom in Israel than we had in America. He said, “That’s interesting. We have a new Board and we can do anything we want. I’ll bring it up at our next Board meeting and let you know. (I’m still waiting.)
They contacted the ex-professor and he asked me to forget his paper.
To remove PP it will take getting out of our comfort zone of talking and put feet into action. How many would it take to march on the campus and hand out our complaints? My wife of July 4 said she would join me and she’s not even Baptist.
I’d like to carry a sign proclaiming his breaking bylaws by allowing a Muslim student.
My sister told PP that Wade posted about it, and she was stopping an endowment to SWBTS. He said Wade’s post was nothing but lies. She replied “Good; that means there’s not a Muslim student.”
“Uh, oh, we huh…are going to convert him.”
Hey! I’m dead serious about this march. Do you think more would come if Wade was present?
Rex, would love to see that paper.
Does anyone know if Garrison is over 50?
He has been married 35+ years. High probability his age is 50+ years.
Bro Rex!
You know me well enough to know that I'm not real keen on Bro. Paige. I haven't had personal contact with him but only know him as an observer through various episodes of the past 3 or 4 decades. He is a character.
I think you are referring to my comment in response to the other person's comment which was:
""I believe it is time for Godly men and women of character and integrity to finally rise up and remove Paige Patterson."
I responded with; "Really? Don't think that is going to happen."
My comment was expressing my cynicism and serious doubt that any "Godly men or women of character" are going to be able to muster enough power and leverage to do anything about a power player of the apparent degree of Bro. Paige. Same with our institutional Boards psyche. I don't think there's any way we're going to see a change in the thinking and manner in which they function in our life time. Do you?
Oh, alright, of course and act of God could change them all, but I think that this is one of those things that God gives us space to handle. Paige and the Boards are such huge institutions that it's difficult to assert meaningful change. Our church systems with our Christian institutions are quite vulnerable and susceptible to abuse and control by those who are hungry for power, celebrity, control and worldly prestige.
So we either learn to live with it while continuing to express our opposition and dismay, which is helpful and perhaps does slow them down, or we leave. But where would we go?
you should stay, RRR, for the sake of the very young and the very old . . . but instead of concentrating on opposition and dismay,
begin to PROCLAIM with joy the Good News . . . be more inclusive, have a Franciscan blessing of the animals and invite the whole surrounding communities to come and participate ... there is a great need for Christ out there, so a little humility will go a very long way in increased grace and its companion: an abundance of love and joy
stay . . . and 'take back' your Church for the sake of the good people in it who deserve better than the 'patterson model of Christianity' . . . Call down the fire of the Holy Spirit and watch the renewal come . . . God Bless :)
Thanks for the reminder to "KEEP YOUR EYES ON JESUS AND YOU CAN WALK ON WATER!"
Speaking of the walking on water business, Wade had a quirky post in 2006: Lessons from an African Pastor. Though this lesson is more valid for us.
It's time for him to retire.
Have copies of a letter from Page and his research assistant begging and belittling me for refusing to retract an article I write for a baptist news letter in late 80's during his "turn the cat around if I'm rubbing its fur the wrong way" phase.
Fat chance of retraction...both them and now.
We REALLY need to be praying hard for all of our IMB missionaries 50 years old and over right now. They are in the process of having to make major life decisions regarding what they believe GOD wants them to do. Sometimes that is clear cut and obvious but in situations like this it can be really hard to discern the voice of God and where He is leading.
My wife told the women in her Missions Circle last night about the plans to reduce the missionary force and the financial situation. We're in a fairly large church and would you believe that NONE of the women in the MISSIONS CIRCLE were aware of what's going on!?!
Leads me to think that very few SB churches are aware. WHAT?!! I thought EVERYONE read Wade Burleson's Blog!!!
ONE LAST NOTE:
May I suggest, if anyone is still viewing this post;
That we notify as many Southern Baptists that we know and encourage them to contact any IMB missionary they know personally and tell them you're praying for them during this time of change and decision making. Even the younger missionaries are having to deal with the uncertainty of possible changes in their leadership teams and separation from some of whom they greatly depend.
I suggest that we not be critical about any leadership decisions given that we don't know all the details involved but just let our missionaries know that Southern Baptists are aware of this very challenging time and know they're going through unprecedented circumstances and that we love them and are praying for them.
The worse thing for them would be to think that we Southern Baptists at home are not aware of their situation and not going through it with them.
Anonymous said...Rex, would love to see that paper. Thu Sep 17, 12:29:00 PM 2015.
I would also, but too many years gone by.
Lydia,
Your news about Patterson didn’t break my heart. Thanks
You said the numbers at SWBTS are a joke.
They’ve been bad a long time; had to reach up to touch bottom when there were 5,000 REAL students when Dilday was president.
Another joke was his ‘apology’ at the SBC for having a Muslim enrolled.
Did he at one time have his portrait in clouds on some ceiling at SWBTS? Maybe that didn’t get past the planning stage.
"I suggest that we not be critical about any leadership decisions given that we don't know all the details involved but just let our missionaries know that Southern Baptists are aware of this very challenging time and know they're going through unprecedented circumstances and that we love them and are praying for them."
And why is that? Why is secrecy tolerated at all? Why do people in the pews pay for secrecy and not expect transparency.
Secrecy provides 'darkness' for covering up that which those involved do not wish to be seen in the light of day.
Sometimes it's necessary for the protection of innocent people.
But when money is involved, the likelihood is that the 'secrets' are better exposed to the light so everyone can see what is going on.
Who are people who demanded 'secrecy'? What was their spoken motivation at the time?
What is their role now, when missionaries stand to pay for the possible mistakes of 'leadership' ?
He's literally throwing elbows
Anonymous,
Do you read these things prior to commenting or are you just smoking wacky weed? Who said ANYTHING about secrecy? No wonder you go by "anonymous".
"Do you read these things prior to commenting or are you just smoking wacky weed? Who said ANYTHING about secrecy? No wonder you go by "anonymous"."
Perhaps you did not realize what you were really communicating?
You wrote:
"I suggest that we not be critical about any leadership decisions given that we don't know all the details involved but just let our missionaries know that Southern Baptists are aware of this very challenging time and know they're going through unprecedented circumstances and that we love them and are praying for them."
I am wondering why we cannot know all the "details" involved? Why not transparency about their decisions? After all, the "leaders" you don't want people to be "critical" of made very bad decisions for a while and now we find ourselves in a crisis and worse for older missionaries.
But you are suggesting questioning as "being critical" and even suggesting it is wrong to expect "details" as if they should be a secret. Why? I believe the people who gave money all these years have a right to know. If you don't think that way, then fine. I find that stance extremely immature and naive.
Is "RRR" was not a form of anonymity?
Just click on "RRR" and see my profile. Nothing anonymous about it.
I think we are both probably on the same page as often is the case in the apparent disagreements we have when blogging communication. Limited in our ability to communicate our true intent and spirit.
When I mentioned not being critical on leadership my intent was to say that I thought it was not something that our suffering "missionaries" need to hear right now. Note that the context of my message was regarding communicating with our missionaries who are going through a lot right now. So when communicating with "them" to show that we are praying for them perhaps its better to express encouragement to them rather than dumping on them. To communicate with missionaries saying that we think their leadership is loony would be kind of like visiting a cancer patient in ICU and complaining because we had to pay for parking in the hospital parking lot. Not something they care to hear in the midst of their suffering.
However, when it comes to demanding transparency, accountability, dealing with problems straightforwardly and such I am in total agreement with you and believe we should do all we can to hold those in positions of accountability accountable; particularly Board trustees who in my estimation are the key players who released the rope holding our missionaries over the past years when they spent money extravagantly and rubber stamped everything presented and allowed previous Presidents to spend money irresponsibly and got us into this mess.
" When I mentioned not being critical on leadership my intent was to say that I thought it was not something that our suffering "missionaries" need to hear right now. Note that the context of my message was regarding communicating with our missionaries who are going through a lot right now. So when communicating with "them" to show that we are praying for them perhaps its better to express encouragement to them rather than dumping on them. To communicate with missionaries saying that we think their leadership is loony would be kind of like visiting a cancer patient in ICU and complaining because we had to pay for parking in the hospital parking lot. Not something they care to hear in the midst of their suffering."
Any time is the right time for full truth and transparency. Your illustrations don't match the situation. The missionaries trusted people they should not have trusted. Now they are given an offer that if they refuse it, they are told it will be worse for them. This by the same ( I agree that Platt is a figurehead) people who were not fully honest with them or the donors. But they get to keep their high paying jobs and even hire more missionaries.
This is about ageism for some but not for others. Obviously ageism does not apply to Garrison. Nor would it apply to men like Mohler, Akin, Patterson, etc. We really don't have to be like these leaders. We can do better. Why do we go along with the worlds ways and think it like Jesus Christ?
We should do more than pray for our missionaries. Churches should redirect their CP dollars to helping them get on their feet here in real ways. The SBC should be known for valuing people not throwing them to the curb.
The SBC looks like the world around them. No different.
Conversation is pointless.
"Conversation is pointless"
If agreement is your aim, I would have to agree with the above.
I find Dr. Patterson's criticism unusual in light of a blog he posted last year with the title "10 Things That We Owe Dr. David Platt" found at http://swbts.edu/campus-news/news-releases/10-things-that-we-owe-dr-david-platt/ See this website for the full article as these 10 points are abbreviated.
The 10 points briefly are:
1) Prayer for his family’s protection.
2) Thanksgiving to God for this young leader.
3) To pray and encourage Dr. Platt.
4) Pray God’s superintendence over every thought that crosses David Platt’s mind. 5) Openness to new ways of doing the work of Christ.
6) Acknowledgement of the influx of young people coming into mission focus.
7) Willingness to do whatever Platt asks.
8) Willingness to make sacrifices in order to extend the kingdom of our Lord.
9) Giving him the opportunity to make 12 mistakes during first year.
10)Finally, we owe David Platt constant prayer to God for divine wisdom.
Dr. Patterson's recent criticism to me still seems unusual in light of his closing remarks (still worth considering today) "Seven billion people await our message of the saving efficacy of Christ. We must not be divided. Please join me in making these ten commitments to David Platt and may God help us all."
Your "body language" assessment of Dr. Pattesons tics is petty and ignorant. I have noticed that he has developed some physical tics as he has aged, but your bias has no bounds and no class.
Don,
You must have had a “tic” when you spelled Patterson’s name. Your comment reflects the same. Are you trying to get in favor with the ‘powers that be’?
I too drove Patterson around during his heyday--and also met in many of his "secret" meetings during those years and always found him to be one of the most arrogant and pompous men I have ever known. He comes by it naturally but its much worse these days. Take a drive over to Southwestern sometime and check out the money he has spent on himself. Its astounding and what's worse, the trustees put their stamp of approval on everything he has done.
The "war" back then was a valid war in many ways but there were huge flaws and faults among the conservatives as well as the liberals. Don't let liberals convince you that they were the innocent victims of the evil conservatives--there is more than enough blame to go around.
Now that the dust has has years to settle, people are finally realizing that the battle was never over the Bible and inerrancy but over POWER, POLITICS, AND MONEY. And that was preceded the fall from grace of Southern Baptists and why they are such a joke today.
To me, the most telling statement that Patterson made in the video was that God does not condone deception. Too bad he was oblivious to that when he engaged in so much deception in defaming so many Bible believing pastors 30+ years ago. By the way, is David Garrison related to Gene Garrison. If so, it would explain a lot about his antipathy toward him.
As one who grew up in a Conservative Resurgence church, whose pastor was President of the SBC, I grieve at the end result. The "cure' has effectively killed the patient. I have many years on the field with the FMB/IMB/IMBConnecting and what I see is heart breaking. If many take the VRI it will leave legacy areas, Latin America and Africa void of leadership and personnel. A heavily skewed number are in those areas. Chance? I think not. Everything it moving to Middle East and Asia.
More importantly, our past esteemed leaders from NAMB, IMB, Executive Committee, Seminaries have built their kingdoms and power structures to the destruction of the convention. How many godly men have been destroyed, or attempted to be destroyed, by the good ol' boys in the CR because they have not towed the line for the CR movement. People like Richard Jackson, Wade Burleson and others.
I say this with a heavy heart but I believe that unless there is a true REVIVAL among "so called leaders" that filters to the churches you may as well write ICHABOD across the headquarters in Nashville, Atlanta, Richmond, Ft. Worth and elsewhere where fighting to keep "turf" is more important than humbly seeking GOD and calling people to repentance.
Our SBC leaders are good at "religious talk" until they are crossed and then the knives comes out and lives are destroyed.
GOD have mercy on us as a denomination and a people. He can do without SBC, we can't do without Him.
As for PP and his antics, he's gotta to something to stay in the lime-light and hold onto some sense of power. Sadly, he has led SWBTS to be only a shell of its former glory. If nothing else he is consistent.
Wade, I commend you for staying with SBC, I don't have the energy for this type of stuff anymore.
A weary missionary returning home.
Weary Missionary,
Your words are very very interesting but would double your accountability if you had signed your name. Would you value Wade’s post if it was “anonymous?
As it is; I might have written your post. Are you afraid of being sued? You cannot be sued for saying, “I…found him to be one of the most arrogant and pompous men I have ever known.” If you’d said, ‘he IS arrogant and pompous’, you would have to prove that in a lawsuit.
I suspect you want to keep your reputation with the ‘powers’.
If I was a detective I’d think you were a member of Prestonwood Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas by your saying, “Take a drive over to Southwestern…” and you “grew up in a C/R church, whose pastor was President of the SBC.”
You see, Prestonwood was at crossroads of staying with the Old Convention of Texas or joining the New Convention when President of the SBC, PP, gave a sermon there. Afterwards, Prestonwood joined the New convention and its pastor became the next President of the SBC. Another ‘wheeling dealing’ by PP?
BYW, that was the night I was threaten of being arrested if I didn’t retrieve my comment I’d put under the cars windshield wipers. Also when PP yelled, “We got ALL of them!” (Explanation of errors in Criswell’s Bible)
Another beef I have with you and all the SBC is the names Conservatives and Liberals.
Those should be switched because one of Webster’s definitions is “OPPOSED to CHANGE”.
When the C/R took over they stole the same CONSERVATIVE because they changed all names except WMU. (Women’s Missionary Union) The Executive Committee even tried to change “Southern Baptists” to the “Great Commission Baptists”.
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