Last Thursday I called and spoke to a representative of the Executive Committee for the Southern Baptist Convention in Nashville. He said that Southern Baptists who are 'opposed' to the new, more narrow definition of 'friendly cooperation' in order to be considered 'Southern Baptist' --
a change that would require messenger approval to amend the SBC -- should send an email to the Executive Committee at article3@sbc.net and
register their objections to the proposal.
That's ARTICLE3@SBC.NET.
According to this representative (and he should know) a number of people have already done so, and it was his feeling, though he can issue no guarantees, that the Executive Committee would NOT bring the motion with the BFM provision to the floor because of opposition to it.
We'll see.
I would send your email and flood the Executive Committee By-Laws Committee with your concerns. The Convention in Baltimore convenes in less than two weeks.
48 comments:
Another way that the supposed "traditionalists/fubdamentalists" are trying to take over the SBC
I did send them an email. The text:
"I'm not attending in Baltimore. There are several reasons, but primary among them is the thought that, if THIS is what the SBC is building itself into, I believe God is telling me to LET THEM.
So have at it. I know there's pressure against it, but I figure it's going to happen sooner or later, so why not get the ball rolling now?"
Bob,
Your irony is hilarious.
Bob: Great email. :)
The traditionalists/fundamentalists have already taken over the SBC. Where have you been?
If it passes, every nonfundamentalist church "not in good standing" should immediately defund the CP.
Anonymous 1:46
That is precisely what our church will do.
I would think that it would be a pretty serious defunding by many. I guess we shall see
Wade,
You said, "That is precisely what our church will do." and I believe you were commenting in response to Anonymous remarking that "If it passes, every nonfundamentalist church "not in good standing" should immediately defund the CP."
I'm wondering if you intended to say that you "imagine" or "hope" or "figure" that your church would stop funding CP in that situation of if you as pastor in your church make those kind of decisions on your own? Just seems a bit odd that a non-fundie-type leader would make a statement like that.
Wade, I sent a couple of blog posts of my own to the Exec Committee some days ago and received a phone call from a representative acknowledging the posts and saying that there had indeed been some real concerns expressed by many about this. After our conversation I felt a bit more hopeful that there may indeed be changes to this.
So, I'm not crazy about telling churches that practice open communion that they are not in friendly cooperation. However, since the thrust of this proposal seems to be to hurt social clubs that have the gall to call themselves churches (I.e. they usually aligned with the Christian state convention and the moderate convention like the two conventions in Texas) I can say the Executive Committee's heart is in the right place. Great idea...poor execution
That should say "....dually alligned..."
RRR,
It is I that has been arguing for continued CP funding with the majority arguing against me. I will probably not argue for continued funding if it passes. That's what I meant.
".. it was his feeling, though he can issue no guarantees, that the Executive Committee would NOT bring the motion with the BFM provision to the floor because of opposition to it."
goodness,
this would be a VERY powerful executive committee to be able to control opposition from the floor in this way . . .
so much for consensus
(which was the way of the early Church councils)
sounds more like 'hard ball' politics, Wade
Wade,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Frank Page (now president of the Executive Committee) the person we helped elect as president of the SBC many years ago?
I thought he was a ‘good’ guy and by that I mean I didn’t think he was in ‘good standing’ with Page Patterson. WHAT HAPPENED?
BTW, years ago, my cousin was a missionary to Korea 39 years. Page asked in an accusing tone: “Do you use the King James when you preach?”
“Why no. I use the Korean Bible.”
A couple days ago, some lady in the SBC called and asked who I wanted to send an email to. She said Frank Page was the president of the Executive Committee, but I’d getter better response if I sent it to . That was what you told me days ago, and that was where I sent my email.
Joe Blackmon,
I see you still have your same opinion. I’d reply, but I hate to get in the gutter.
For some reason, article3@sbc.net, did not print.
Rex,
Yours was one of the main churches that I was thinking about.
Oh, and I still get a smile out of remembering how your son and other "missionaries" were hurt when they were told to sign the BFM 2k or get out. :-)
Joe,
Surely you jest when you write, "I still get a smile out of remembering how your son and other missionaries were hurt..."
If not, then do some research
Totalitarianism at work in the SBC
Joe,
I was taken aback like Bro. Wade.....I was shocked....surely you jest....surely...
Wade,
I believe your research link was aimed at Joe, but I think “Enforcing sadists” hit ‘fundamentalists’ and a certain Seminary President who’s actions are turning HIS Seminary into a cemetery.
“Enforcing sadists can be found among…deans of universities…because they are in a position where they feel they should be the ones controlling and punishing people [Hebrew teacher] who have broken rules [women can’t teach men] …in their domain of authority…these sadists dominate [enrolled Muslim] and punish others [reduced retiree’s pay], so increases satisfaction and power they feel, reinforcing their self-perception of righteousness and increasing their ego…blind them to reality…”
Govteach,
Joe meant what he said. He just repeated what he’s said before. That’s why Wade’s “research link” (“self-perception of righteousness”) applys.
I think the most revealing thing what Patterson did that shows he fits Wade’s ‘research link’ was where he stored a podium.
The students praised a speaker so highly at assembly, Patterson stored the podium to gather cobwebs because it had been contaminated by a woman.
Bro. Rex....
Wow, just wow.....I am speechless...
It is a matter of time before the SBC is just a shell of its former self.....
Wade,
Cry me a river. Those missionaries who were fired shouldn't have been in there in the first place since they were moderates. So I have absolutely no sympathy since they got WAY better than they deserved.
Is this the latest attempt to hijack the SBC for Calvin & Kulturkampf?
Wade,
I love people,especially my brethren in Christ, but there are some I have deep concern for.
One such are those who act unilaterally in matters which should belong to the wider group.
Another is those who, when they write something about those with whom they disagree, I cannot help but think "mean-spirited", which my dictionary defines as,
"Lacking in magnanimity", "Having or showing an ignoble lack of honour or morality".
The vulgarity they display reminds me of the Pharisees who displayed an arrogant self-righteousness, designed to elevate one’s own self image of legalistic perfection. A psychiatrist once said that their negativity was a result of their insecurity, immaturity and unrenewed mind.
JOE, you need to see a doctor, for your own sake, before this deteriorates into something worse.
Take care of yourself. You are not well. And you need help now.
God be with you and keep you from all harm.
L's
Your concern is as touching as it is sincere.
I see a doctor from time to time--sinus infections, bronchitis, etc. Other than that I'm in average health for the most part.
If I were you, I'd be more concerned about your own spiritual welfare since Wade and Debbie have lied to you and told you that you believe the gospel that Jesus, Paul, CB, and Dave Miller preach. The gospel CB has lovingly shared with your all these years. I mean, I'm not the least bit concerned about you, but he is. You should listen to him.
Peace be with you, L's.
And the Lord be with you also, JOE
Joe,
Regarding the Executive Committee’s recommendation, you said, “Great idea…poor execution.”
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the “poor execution” was because they did not follow the execution of how the BFM 2000 was passed.
That is; it was kept secret. It was written behind closed doors by 15 of Paige Patterson’s friends that said, “We can’t tell you but you’re going to like it.”
None of the churches knew about the deletions, changes, and addictions to the BFM 1963. That in itself makes the vote illegal because each messenger is to abide by the will of their church.
Take away the will of the churches and the SBC becomes a ‘Top-down religion’.
In 2008, missionary Ron West wrote: “Even though for some individuals the issue may have been theology, but for the CR organization the issue has always been power and control.”
If the Executive Committee decided to listen to the voices of the people by announcing their intentions, then I appreciate their integrity.
But if somehow the ‘cat got out of the bag’, they may have been doing business as usual.
Actually, Rexy
The first person that I know about who broke news about this change is a trustee of SWBTS and a definite supporter of the BFM 2k. So it's not like big hero* Wade here saved everyone by warning them of the evil move by the conservatives.
I think a better question would be is why does a church like yours WANT to remain dually aligned? What possible reason would you even have to want to have anything to do with the SBC?
Joe: Enough. Enough. Enough. You talk to L's about the Gospel, yet she is kind to you and you are horrible, mean, love to watch others suffer. You dare talk about Christ and the Gospel? That is not the Gospel, it is the complete opposite and you just don't get it. I wonder if you ever will. Enough. God help you Joe.
Joe: You want people to leave, yet I don't even know if you are really Southern Baptist. I don't want a Southern Baptist who loves suffering of others, but nonetheless they are there. I have seen splits before. As a young person, my family and I belonged to a Independent Fundamentalist church that is now home to Messianic Jews.No longer a Baptist church. It split and split and split till it split itself to nothing. The same thing will happen to the SBC.
These comments and commentors are now beginning to sound like a bunch of 8th graders arguing in the playground. Somehow I doubt that Wade intended his blogger friends to act like this.
There was an old TV show that had two people to choose from. True facts were told about each one, then the words “Will the real “________” stand up?”
Let’s play that game and say “Will the real “Conservative” stand up?”
Two contestants are Russell Dilday and Paige Patterson.
FACTS
Under Dilday, SWBTS had 5,000 students preparing for the Lord’s work, but under Patterson, enrollment has dropped even though students, including Mormons and a Muslim, are preparing for all kinds of occupations including cooking.
Dilday’s book, “Columns: Glimpses of a Seminary Under Assault”, relates Patterson telling Dilday: “You’re Conservative all right, but you’re not ‘one of us.”
A crowd of students met in front of Dilday’s house and said they would do anything Dilday wanted them to do such as protesting his firing by boycotting going to class etc.
Dilday dismissed them by saying it was more important to complete their education for the Lord’s work than to worry about him.
After Patterson preached at Prestonwood Baptist Church, there was a crowd taking turns to talk with him.
I said my son was a missionary in Israel and I had swum alone 4 miles across the Sea of Galilee when I was 65. But it was taking more courage to ask him a question than that.
I showed him where he had written the forward to Criswell’s Study Bible and asked if they got ALL the errors where he explained:
“Harmonization of apparent discrepancies and explanations of passages thought by some to contain error are afforded the reader.”
He yelled to the crowd, “We got all of them!”
I asked, “What about the ruler’s daughter being dead in Matthew and alive in Mark and Luke?”
He whispered, “We got all we could.”
Liar, liar; your pants are on fire!
I know of only the “Holman Christian Standard Bible” (Matthew 9:18) has “My daughter is near death” vs. other translations “My daughter is even now dead.” (KJ)
I’ve wondered if Patterson’s ‘ends justifies the means’ had anything to do with the ‘resurrection’ of the daughter.
Keith Parks (President Foreign Mission Board before CR) argued the glue that held Baptists together was MISSIONS, but Patterson and Co. said it was DOCTRINE. (our way or the highway)
I could go on, but I’ve said enough.
BTW, Austin Davis wrote, “I look forward to shaking your hand one day soon when this is all over.”
Joe,
I’ve written: “Our church is affiliated with the SBC and the Baptist General Convention of Texas. (BGCT)
Where did you get our church was “dually aligned”?
In my opinion, dually aligned churches were first BGCT churches until someone led them to also join the new convention of Texas (SBTC) and soon they would drop from the BGCT.
The Baptist churches in our county are about half BGCT and half SBTC. I know of no dually aligned churches.
The BGCT rejects the BFM 2000, and the SBTC accepts the BFM 2000. How could a church be both?
You ask why I want to have anything to do with the SBC.
I could answer like an old cigarette commercial that has a guy with a black eye saying: “I’d rather fight than switch.”
But my true answer is I care that Christians have been fooled and want them to know the truth in order to carry out the work that Christ wants us to do.
Hey, Joe: You forgetting about Paige's admission of an unconverted Muslim (plus some Mormans)? Are you also aware of his setting up rules that would never allow the founder of the SWBTS to teach there, due to a divorce and a second marriage (first ended by adultery)?
Forget whether it ever comes to a vote. The Powers Who Be did this. They produced the document.
We'll never be able to say the signs weren't there.
Joe here's a story. Would you judge my father moderate or conservative?
Our father was a Chaplain in Patton’s 4th Armored Division that landed three days after D-day. He stayed on the front until the war ended. The first soldier to die was in his arms saying, “Yesterday, I was so scared I asked Jesus to save me. He stepped into my heart and I was so happy I thought I’d live forever. Tell my mother I’ll meet her in heaven.” His mother replied, “You’ll never know what your letter meant to us.”
Friends called him ‘Moss Face” because he’d been in WW I. Regardless of his age, he was first in the obstacle course and never lost in wrestling. His medals, including the Bronze Star, showed he was accustomed going beyond the call of duty.
In 1945, Rothenburg had a population of about 9,000. The 4th Armored was stationed there after the war ended.
As the days passed, he and others made friends by playing soccer with children. It wasn’t long before the people and soldiers became friends. One little girl about five was especially drawn to him. Her smiling face, blond hair, and good cheer made Monika Beyer everyone’s friend. She was the youngest of her family of several children. But nearly every day she troubled him by asking, “When is my daddy coming home?”
Her father, John Beyer, was the town’s best doctor. In 1942, he was in the battle at Stalingrad which started the end for Hitler. Germans had 85% casualties of a million men. 90,000 became POWs, but because of food shortage and harsh treatment only 5,000 survived which increased casualties to 99%. The chance of Beyer being alive was not good.
He always answered Monika’s question: “Your daddy is coming home real soon. You will see him in the big meadow by the oak tree with the rope swing. He will be calling your name.” Her face would light up and she kept telling her family Chaplain Ray’s good news. It wasn’t long until Monika’s mother, Helen Beyer, spoke to him. “I’ve accepted my husband’s death. All my children with the exception of Monika have also. I must ask you, Chaplain, never again say her father is coming home. You’re going to break my little girl’s heart!”
He told her about his brother being reported killed in World War I. His mother had eight young children when her husband died. She remained a widow 38 years. She believed God would save his brother. After the war, he was in the barn’s hay loft and saw a man walking on the road to their house. His brother was coming home. The army lost track of him when he was hospitalized from Mustard gas.
With tears down her face, Helen asked, “Oh Chaplain Ray, what am I to do? I’ve never heard a single word from my husband in three years. If he were alive, he would move heaven and earth to find us. I remain here, alone, and without hope.”
“If he’s alive, I’ll find your husband.”
Her tears began anew, “I don’t think I can do this. The children will be torn apart, our hopes dashed once more.” Catching her hands, he prayed.
“But where will you go? If my husband can’t find us, and he knows where to look, how can you possibly find him?
“I’ll search the four sectors of prisoners that Allies have in Berlin.”
“Before you go, I want you to have something.” She returned with a picture of her husband and a lock of hair. “The last night we said our goodbyes our baby was asleep. This is some of her hair and my husband said he would carry the other always. If you find a man that claims to be my husband, ask him for Monika’s hair. The children and I will pray for you every day.”
His jeep engine was new. An 88 shell had missed him by inches and destroyed the old one. It was 340 miles to Berlin. He searched the Russian, French, British, and American prison camps with millions of POWs in large open fields with barbwire without success. The American camp was last and as he was driving away disappointed, he heard a GI yell, “Wait!”
A GI was running after him. He asked if he wanted a ride. “No Sir, but I may know something. I overheard your story to the Captain. I have a friend in the British Sector that knows about a German surgeon that’s extremely talented. He doesn’t know his name but the British kidnapped him from the Russians to save a British soldier near death. Since then, they’ve kept him hid.”
Returning to the British prison camp with renewed hope, he told the guard he had orders to find Dr. John Beyer. He retraced his steps with an interpreter, but no luck. “What’s that small building way over there?”
“That’s a destroyed jail. It’s deserted and is going to be torn down.”
“Let’s take a look anyway.”
One undamaged cell had four men on their knees. They looked like they were gambling, but they were praying. None looked like the picture, but the interpreter hoped they might know something. “The American chaplain is looking for Dr. John Beyer. He has good news. Do you know where he can be found?”
Slowly, a tall man stood and spoke in perfect English. “I’m John Beyer. My family and village are lost. I’ve been a prisoner three years. What possible good news could an American have for me?”
“You’re far too old for me to believe you unless you can match this lock of hair.”
Jerking a lock of hair from his shirt, he grabbed him through the bars. “Does my family live?”
Loud praises to God drowned his reply because a big smile was their answer. Hearing there were God’s orders to take him home, their praises were so contagious everyone started shouting.
The British Commander said no, but they could talk more after lunch. “You go ahead. I’m going to stay here and pray.” “If that’s the way you feel, I’ll release him.”
Our father was always a fast driver and had many wrecks. He slowed down when Dr. Beyer said, “I don’t think God saved me from prison to die in a jeep wreck.”
At Rothenburg, they stopped at the large meadow that had a swing. “We’ll talk again, but your daughter comes here ever afternoon to see if this will be the day her daddy comes home,”
Not trusting himself to speak, Dr. Beyer shook hands and turned toward the meadow where a little girl was swinging. He ran towards the big oak. “Monika! Monika! I’m your daddy!” There was fantastic joy when he arrived home with Monika on his shoulders.
For many years German prisoners were not allowed to return home, but were used as forced labor to repair war damage in Russia, France, and England. Two years after the war, four million were still prisoners. About one million had died and another million are still listed as missing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_World_War_II
But at Rothenburg, the town had a large celebration for their doctor where Monika’s mother said, “I’m going to kiss the Chaplain”, and her husband said, “If you don’t I am!”
Anon
I haven't forgotten anything about Patterson allowing a Muslim to enroll. That was the wrong thing to do. A non-Christian should not be allowed to attend an SBC seminary.
Rex,
I have no idea if your father was a moderate or a Christian. Dilday might have been basically conservative but since he was wiling to cooperate with moderates he got what he deserved. Actually, he got WAY better than he deserved.
Debbie,
Take your meds and get back under the covers.
Sorry,
That anon reply should have been addressed to dr. james willingham
Joe,
Congratulations; “…moderate or a Christian” is quite impressive since your main goal is to hijack Wade’s post in getting people upset by having all the attention on yourself.
You really love it don’t you?
I’ll stop playing your little game so it’s over and out.
Joe,
I must agree with Rex. You have hijacked the thread, been rude, crude and without grace.
May God have mercy on your soul.
Thanks for the response to my question, Wade. That sounds more like I would figure your position would be. I understand the church's frustration with the SBC though sorry to hear it has come to that degree. It's good to hear that you're still trying to leave the door open.
Personally, I would guess that Joe is more narcissistic than sadistic, and simply wants attention, of which this thread gives him plenty.
I pray that he will experience a true does of God's grace. His comments are so full of disgrace that responding to them reminds me of an old saying, "You can get into a pig pen and wrestle with a pig, but the pig will enjoy it and you'll just get muddy."
Part of the mystery of our faith is revealed to us when our response to difficult people is allowed to be open to God's grace
we would, as frail humans, naturally respond negatively,
but only by the grace of God are we given gifts that change the very nature of our response
Post a Comment