I confess to thinking twice before posting today. I know that what is written here will inflame some and enrage others. I remind the reader that the title of the post simply asks a question. I, for one, am not giving an answer. Some Christians, people whom I respect, have written that the answer to the question in the title of my post is an emphatic "No!" They have suggested that to disagree with them on this issue is to "demonize" Islam. Others however, like the Mossab Hassan, answer the question "Are moderate Muslims the most dangerous kind of Muslims?" with an emphatic "Yes." Since there is disagreement, it is at least a question worth asking and thoughtfully considering an appropriate answer.The shootings at Ft Hood that killed 13 United States soldiers is a horrific example of Islamic jihad. What most Americans are hearing on television is that "we just don't know why this moderate Muslim, a United States military officer himself, would do such a terrible thing!" Mossab Hassan says he understands the Islamic ideology that drove Hasan to do what he did. Mossab, the son of of the only surviving founding council member of Hamas, the largest terrorist organization in the world, spoke at our church last October. He said something during his talk that got people to thinking. Mossab Hassan said, (quote) "Moderate Muslims are most dangerous Muslims of all." This former Islamic radical fundamentalist, who himself is now urging all Muslims world-wide to love (not kill) their enemies, explained his rationale as follows (direct from the transcript).
Islamic fanatics are not the most dangerous Muslims.
• Professors, teachers at U.S. universities are dangerous because they support terrorism undercover (raise money here to send to terrorists)
• Most suicide bombers are not fanatics, but moderate, traditional Muslims
• Islam is a religion of steps, like climbing a ladder, with jihad the highest rung on the ladder.
• You cannot measure the speed of a person climbing this ladder. A “moderate Muslim” could reach the top rung in a few months, or in ten years. There is no way to predict it.
• There is no difference between a moderate Muslim and a fundamental Muslim. They believe in the same god.
Islam's god teaches followers to kill the infidels who will not convert. This act of jihad is the highest rung of the ladder in one's effort to please Allah.
Again, you may not agree with Mossab Hassan, but I find it interesting that people in the culture of the United States are urging caution in bringing judgment upon moderate Islam over the shootings at Ft. Hood--implying that moderate Islam is different than fundamental Islamic radicals. Yet,a former radical Muslim leader in the terrorist organization Hamas, a man trained for years to kill his enemies, is unequivocally telling us that moderate Muslims are the most dangerous kind of Muslims because nobody knows how fast they will jump to the top rung of jihad.
Interesting. Maybe US army officer Nidal Hasan was truly a moderate Muslim. I guess it depends on whose perspective one chooses to believe.
190 comments:
I have refrained from following the news about Nidal Hasan. Mainly that it is so depressing.
Given that I have not followed the news, my initial guess is Nidal Hasan is not a jihadi. For he did not kill himself. I am guessing there are mental problems going on here.
I would agree with Mossab Hassan that "Yes", moderate muslims are the "most dangerous" muslims of all. For here we are talking of the potential to go jihadi.
But then if we look at Christians in the history, we have not come across as clean either. We tortured ourselves over so many "idiotic" divisions. Baptists were clearly persecuted by the Christians in the early part of this country's formation.
The only way to win here is by exhibiting the Living Word within ourselves. Then this becomes our testimony to the lost. Through this the lost world sees the efficacy of The Word taking root in our lives and bearing fruit that is visible to everyone. Without this, all the preaching and teaching is a waste, if we do not show this fruit. And I humbly submit that the fruit is Love.
If we do not have this, then the lost will clearly do not want this "Good News" that has failed to afford any changes within ourselves, let alone the lost. For the lost, the promise of heaven and living with The God for eternity sounds like an empty promise, if the bearer of The Good News does not show Love in their heart, deeds and words.
I will freely admit I am far away from this simple goal of showing Love.
The same arguments are made against Christianity. For example, that moderate Christians tacitly endorse the bombing of abortion clinics because they worship the same God.
If we took the Pat Robertsons and Jerry Fallwells of the Christian world and put them in the same situation as many Muslims in the world, then I think we'd see more militant, fundamentalist Christians.
Imagine that a strong Muslim country invaded the US. It's hard to imagine that there would not be Christian suicide bombers.
And the New Testament does not promote the direct killing of unbelievers by believers (the OT promotes a LOT of killing of men, women and children), but the attitude of revenge is certainly there. For instance in the book of Revelation.
I'm not suggesting that all religions are the same, but I am saying that the argument against moderates can cut both ways.
Working for 13 years now in a Muslim country among Muslim people I obviously have strong opinions about this. I remember hearing a missionary coworker refer to Islam as an 'Antichrist'. At the time I thought that was an unusual thing to say. I always thought of the Antichrist as a person but he described it as an evil system opposed to Christ. I have come to agree with him. Islam is a powerful Antichrist deceiving around a billion people on this planet. It is evil.
My caution to all this however, is that too many are making people the enemy instead of the ideology. It may be a fine hair to split but I think it is crucial to do so. WE MUST NOT SEE MUSLIM PEOPLE AS THE ENEMY. Muslim people are the victims of this evil ideology. Our position must be to love them enough to do whatever it takes to rescue them. The deceived are all around us. We can either rail against them, and demand that our government legislate against them or we can love them enough to get to know them and seek the Lord on their behalf. To be clear, Islam is evil and it is an Antichrist. Muslim people are people for whom Jesus died (unless you are a Calvinist in which case you can word that differently). We must see them through the eyes of Christ who looked on Jerusalem and its people who were about to crucify him and declared how he longed to gather them in his arms. Do you love Muslims like that? True followers of Jesus must.
I understand in the comment by Steven that he is trying to be fair here. I appreciate the attitude but it is not true. When Christians bomb abortion clinics it in opposition to the teaching of Jesus. When Muslims murder unbelievers it is in accordance with their teachings. There are verses in the Quran that put limits on the mayhem that is permissible but there are other verses that take those limits away. The Prophet's own life is a testimony to conquering by the sword. Jesus never killed anyone but laid His own life down for everyone. Don't tell me the name of the one you follow, show me his actions in your life.
GENESIS
10 So she said to Abraham, ‘Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit along with my son Isaac.’
11 The matter was very distressing to Abraham on account of his son.
12 But God said to Abraham, ‘Do not be distressed because of the boy and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for it is through Isaac that offspring shall be named after you.
13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a nation of him also, because he is your offspring.’
14 So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes.
16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, ‘Do not let me look on the death of the child.’ And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept.
17 And God heard the voice of the boy; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, ‘What troubles you, Hagar? Do not be afraid; for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.
18 Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him.’ 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the boy a drink."
It is often forgotten, but there is a little known, obscure passage in the Bible, where Isaac and Ishmael are reconciled as they come and stand together to jointly bury their father Abraham.
Sometimes we forget that the Prince of Peace. Christ the Lord also descends from the great Patriarch, Father Abraham, through His Mother, Mary.
The blood of Abraham flowed in Christ's veins in the same way that, through Abraham's cast-off son Ishmael, the blood of Abraham flows in the veins of many Islamic people.
One wonders: is this man, Nidal Hasan, a descendant of Abraham, through Ishmael?
In Hasan's veins, does the blood of Abraham flow, as it did in the veins of Our Lord whose blessed mother descended also from Abraham?
One wonders, and grieves at the sadness of these days. And soon, in the comment stream, the anger and hate and rage will begin, as it must, for we are human.
But, before that, we can remember this:
"13 As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a nation of him also, because he is your offspring.’
And we can remember this:
"18 Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him.’ 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the boy a drink."
We wonder at God's compassionate care that saved the life of the child Ishmael , whose Father Abraham is revered by his Islamic descendents as their own Patriarch.
We wonder at the wisdom of God's plan, which we cannot grasp.
Truly His ways are far above ours.
And still, in the midst of our pain, we must ask this:
What is His Will that we should now seek in all that is to come?
May we turn towards Lord Christ, and not depart from Him to go into that dark place where hatred and fear find their home.
Caritas Christi,
L's
Strider--Great Post!
Islam is evil--PERIOD! The people involved whether they be Arabs, Africans, Americans, Europeans, or Asians all need to be delivered through the transforming Power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. These people have been deceived and are in bondage to satan, the lusts of the flesh, and the very power of evil itsself. Their only hope is God working through His people and His people having the courage and compassion to share this Gospel with a lost and dying world (of which a part are Muslim)
As Jesus said "We need to pray that God would send forth workers for the harvest" (Yes, that means that we all are responsible for sharing the Gospel with ALL Men)
I am personally am studying on how to better accomplish this mission.
As to the Calvist Comment--If Christ died to save 1 Muslim throughout the entire annals of human history(and he has!!) then it is not improper to say that Christ died to save Muslims.
By His Grace, and For His Glory
Bill
Romans 6:23
Wade,
I’m shocked with awe by yours and Strider’s news of the potential danger of Muslim U.S. citizens.
It reminds me of the Philistines’ wise decision to reject David and his army to ‘help’ fight against Israel.
President Obama said there are “nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today."
But the CIA World Fact Book on its web site says the U.S. Muslim population is 1.8 million.
Obama said, “"If you actually took the number of Muslim Americans, we’d be one of the largest Muslim countries in the world."
Was Obama complaining or bragging about Muslims?
To me, his face reflected pride. It looks to me like we have a ‘David’ in the White House.
Rex Ray, I love you man but you did not just use what I said to support fear! NO, NO, NO. We serve what we fear. The terrorists know this and that is why they want to make us afraid, to control us. This is why we must fear God alone. If we fear only Him then we wont be controlled by evil doers.
Look at it this way. Our true enemy wants all Muslims locked in bitter darkness. We want to shine the light. How can he stop us? By making us more afraid of him than of God. If we fear Muslims then we demand legislation against Muslim people and then they will know that we do not love them. We confirm their paranoia that everyone is against them and WE then ensure by our actions that they remain trapped in darkness. Please don't. Our government has laws that forbid us to harm one another. It is enough. If we are duped by our enemy to single out Muslims then we condemn them to slavery to the enemy of their souls. Let us love Muslims fearlessly. NOT blindly, fearlessly.
Make that two n's and one l.
I'm always gripping about incorrect spelling. Oh well...[I DID catch it with no one pointing it out. ;)]
Paul Burleson said...
Wade,
As usual, there are no easy answers to difficult questions. This has to be viewed on several levels it seems to me.
One is the political level. Since our government has the constitutional [and biblical see 1 Peter 2] responsibility of the protection of the innocent and punishment of the evildoer, what Mossab Hassan said should be considered by the powers that be. [To properly protect the citizens.]
This is one of the reasons I take seriously my resposibility to pray for our elected leaders [1 Tim 2:2] and service personnel take seriously their responsibilities of protecting us for which I and the nation have just celebrated them for doing so. [That can be looked at in a multitude of ways also.]
But there is the Kingdom level and Jesus said "He that is not for me is against me." This spoken to the Pharisees in Matt 12:30 and shows that even religion can be seen as the enemy. [The religion of the Pharisees certainly was.]
But Jesus also said to His diciples in Luke 9:40 that "If they are not against us they are for us." This to indicate that even unbelievers are not necessarily to be viewed as the ENEMY. [Several levels remember.]
But finally, enemy or not, our Kingdom responsibility is to love them. [Love your enemies] How that fleshes out for each of us may be a bit different but any action by us NOT based on love for the enemy is not Kingdom reality. Tricky without a doubt. Wisdom needed by all and in Him we DO have the where-with-all to do it.
I'll be if your posts don't get me to thinking about issues that I tend to try to forget about. Thanks for not allowing your old dad to get lazy in spirit.
I have to say that I personally think Strider has nailed it...twice.
Wade,
Perhaps your best post ever!
The saddest part though is how some posters manage to link the evil Muslims to Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and even Calvinists. What a stretch...
Perhaps we need to look no further than our own White House for the dangers that face our nation.
Brother Strider,
You have described the truth in all of this…..
Jihad against your brother is the definition for racism…..where laying down your life for a friend is the solution for God’s glory.
Islam and Jesus Christ have different fathers.
Blessings,
Chris
I appreciate Pastor Wade's courage to write this article, which would not be considered politically correct.
One of the most fruitful things that we could do is read the Koran. A couple of observations from my own reading:
1. The Koran is overwhelmingly didactic and imperative in tone. Whereas, the Bible is primarily narrative, though it contains imperatives, these imperatives are set within the context of the narrative.
2. The Koran offers "correctives" to the Jewish and Christian narratives regarding the descendants of Abraham and the person and work of Jesus. Anotherwords, it is "We have the truth and they are propagating lies." As my world religions professor said in class, "If Islam is true then Judaism and CHristianity must be false."
3. The commands to beat wives and kill the infidel are there. Whereas, Jesus offers a new way through the New Covenant that in effect interprets the Old Covenant.
Christians would be wise to read the Koran itself before making judgments.
But, I do agree with Strider, many muslims are the victims of an ideology. We must respond with love and the gospel to a lost people.
Strider,
I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, but which is more dangerous a wild Boa Constrictor in the jungle or a pet in your home. Hint: ask the fearless man found dead in his bedroom.
Snakes scare me but they don’t control me nor do I serve them.
If all we have to do is love them, let’s invite all the terrorists to New York and show our love.
Do you think if the Jews had done that, the Germans would not have killed them?
There is a happy medium of having a ‘soft heart’ and a ‘soft head’ at the same time.
"Jesus never killed anyone"
This is most likely true, but is Jesus not God? and in Genesis, God killed everyone (almost). I realize there are trinitarian views that are complicated here, but that's the point. Justifying the violence of the Old Testament requires complex exegesis (New covenant, reinterpreting it through Jesus, etc).
Surely many truly moderate Muslims incorporate similar exegesis in figuring out how to deal with the violent passages in the Koran.
Once again, I am not suggesting the religions are equal - just that we should evaluate what "moderate" really means. Most of the aspects put forth in the original post are not moderate. For instance, funneling money to jihadis is in no way a moderate course of action. That is the action of a jihadi "under cover". And suggesting that all Muslims are on the pathway to becoming fundamentalist terrorists does not seems borne out by observation. We would be in trouble if it were true! The same allegation could be made of any religion with fundamentalist, militant elements.
But believe me, I am very, very worried about fundamentalism in any religion.
Anyway, interesting discussion!
Thanks for making my point Rex. Interesting your willing to invite them to New York but not where you live.
I'm troubled by some of what has been said, and here's why.
As Steven Stark said, there are plenty of violent places in the Bible. Someone could say of the Bible that in Joshua's times, God commanded the destruction of whole cities of people. How do we know the Christians won't decide He's commanding it again?
We Christians know why not-- but if people have already decided that we can't be trusted and that everything we say is probably a lie, then they won't listen to us. There is nothing we could say to change their minds. We'd be sunk.
Non-Christians often choose to believe the most literalistic interpretation of the Bible possible, in order to show how mean and horrible the Christian God is. We must be careful, studying the Koran, that we also listen to what Islamic scholars and theologians-- not just fundamentalist extremists-- have said about it. Otherwise we are doing the same thing to another religion that we hate when people do to ours. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," Jesus said. That commandment applies here, too.
On some message boards, I talk with people who have left Christianity in extreme pain at spiritually abusive hyper-fundamentalist tactics that were used to control them. At least one of these people has said that whenever moderate Christians seem kind and non-judgmental, she wonders what judgmentalism they are hiding, because she knows Christians present a loving face for the sake of winning souls.
Should a person who thinks of Christianity this way become a spokesman to Islamic churches about what Christianity is and what Christians are like? And yet is this not the kind of ex-Muslim Mossab Hassan is?
The problem with deciding, in a blanket sort of way, that all people of a certain religion are potential terrorists who can't be trusted, is that you close yourself to any chance of changing your mind. Even if a Muslim neighbor on your street pulled your kids out of your burning house, you would still mistrust him. Even if he helped you financially recover from the fire, you would suspect an ulterior motive.
The Jews in Jesus' day felt just this same way about Samaritans. Jesus' response was to tell a parable in which it is a Samaritan who rescues a man robbed and left for dead.
Those are my thoughts-- take them for what you will.
Hey! I’ve eaten with them in a village 15 miles from Beersheba. They tear the meat off with their hands and fill your plate.
They tried to convince me I had enough money for another wife. My wife didn’t think so. :)
Well said Kristen.
"Simple solution: The bad guys can lay down their wepons and surrender to our military."
I didn't know "we" had a military carrying on any operations for the time being. Last I checked the NT was pretty clear that our citizenship has been transferred from this evil kingdom (whichever nation one happens to find himself in) and rests firmly in the heavenly one. I think all the soldiers of Christ are to be going about at personal risk to offer a pardon to the sinners, much as that offends your American sensibilities.
Darby,
AMEN!!
I agree with Hasan that moderate Muslims are the most dangerous of all. I know this from personal experience.
However, what concerns me is the lack of wisdom in dealing with an obvious problem. For example, when we try Islamic Terrorists in court, would someone explain to me how they can swear to tell the truth when their definitive source for all truth teaches them that to lie to infidels is honorable and just? What if they get aquitted? Or how about they get life and get out in 12 years?
Christian or not, nations have a responsiblity to protect their citizens. Our nation is not doing this. We are handing it over. They are not typical criminals. They are Terrorist
I realize the focus on loving your enemy is Biblical. But what about loving the innocents? I am not willing to just hand my family over. Nor am I willing to just hand my country over. We also show our love by protecting innocent people. God does love Justice, too.
Has anyone noticed the media barely speaks of the dead 13 people? I know all about terrorists wounds from the news and how much pain he is in...ad nauseum. How quickly we write off the dead victims and focus on the Terrorist.
I would like to see us discuss how we can love our enemies and still at the very least, wise about it.
Some criticisms of Pastor Wade's post ...
the big daddy weave > Wade Burleson and Religious Intolerance, Take Two.
I think BDW is incorrect here. First of all this post is titled with a question mark. And secondly the views on Koran and moderate Muslims comes from Mossab Hassan.
as a Canadian and an anabaptist, I'd like to thank Chris and Darby for their last comments.
I find it incomprehensible that a Jesus follower could express the opinions of Joe's last post.
Our thirteen murdered American heroes of the Fort Hood massacre are mentioned by name, with pictures and details, in this speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si8BbJcKpoY
Excerpt from the speech at Fort Hood:
"Chief Warrant Officer Michael Cahill had served in the National Guard and worked as a physician's assistant for decades. A husband and father of three, he was so committed to his patients that on the day he died, he was back at work just weeks after having had a heart attack.
Major Libardo Eduardo Caraveo spoke little English when he came to America as a teenager. But he put himself through college, earned a PhD, and was helping combat units cope with the stress of deployment. He's survived by his wife, sons and step-daughters.
Staff Sergeant Justin DeCrow joined the Army right after high school, married his high school sweetheart, and had served as a light wheeled mechanic and satellite communications operator. He was known as an optimist, a mentor, and a loving husband and loving father.
After retiring from the Army as a major, John Gaffaney cared for society's most vulnerable during two decades as a psychiatric nurse. He spent three years trying to return to active duty in this time of war, and he was preparing to deploy to Iraq as a captain. He leaves behind a wife and son.
Specialist Frederick Greene was a Tennessean who wanted to join the Army for a long time, and did so in 2008, with the support of his family. As a combat engineer he was a natural leader, and he is survived by his wife and two daughters.
Specialist Jason Hunt was also recently married, with three children to care for. He joined the Army after high school. He did a tour in Iraq, and it was there that he reenlisted for six more years on his 21st birthday so that he could continue to serve.
Staff Sergeant Amy Krueger was an athlete in high school, joined the Army shortly after 9/11, and had since returned home to speak to students about her experience. When her mother told her she couldn't take on Osama bin Laden by herself, Amy replied: "Watch me."
Private First Class Aaron Nemelka was an Eagle Scout who just recently signed up to do one of the most dangerous jobs in the service -- diffuse bombs -- so that he could help save lives. He was proudly carrying on a tradition of military service that runs deep within his family.
Private First Class Michael Pearson loved his family and loved his music, and his goal was to be a music teacher. He excelled at playing the guitar, and could create songs on the spot and show others how to play. He joined the military a year ago, and was preparing for his first deployment.
Captain Russell Seager worked as a nurse for the VA, helping veterans with Post-Traumatic Stress. He had extraordinary respect for the military, and signed up to serve so that he could help soldiers cope with the stress of combat and return to civilian life. He leaves behind a wife and son.
Private Francheska Velez, daughter of a father from Colombia and a Puerto Rican mother, had recently served in Korea and in Iraq, and was pursuing a career in the Army. When she was killed she was pregnant with her first child, and was excited about becoming a mother.
Lieutenant Colonel Juanita Warman was the daughter and granddaughter of Army veterans. She was a single mom who put herself through college and graduate school, and served as a nurse practitioner while raising her two daughters. She also left behind a loving husband.
Private First Class Kham Xiong came to America from Thailand as a small child. He was a husband and father who followed his brother into the military because his family had a strong history of service. He was preparing for his first deployment to Afghanistan."
The following is a statement released by Retired Lt. Col. Allen West:
This past Thursday 13 American Soldiers were killed and another 30 wounded at a horrific mass shooting at US Army installation, Ft Hood Texas. As I watched in horror and then anger I recalled my two years of final service in the Army as a Battalion Commander at Ft Hood, 2002-2004.
My wife and two daughters were stunned at the incident having lived on the post in family housing.
A military installation, whether it is Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine, or Coast Guard, is supposed to be a safe sanctuary for our Warriors and their families. It is intended to provide a home whereby our “Band of Brothers and Sisters” can find solace and bond beyond just the foxhole but as family units.
A military installation is supposed to be a place where our Warriors train for war, to serve and protect our Nation.
On Thursday, 5 November 2009 Ft Hood became a part of the battlefield in the war against Islamic totalitarianism and state sponsored terrorism.
There may be those who feel threatened by my words and would even recommend they not be uttered. To those individuals I say step aside because now is not the time for cowardice. Our Country has become so paralyzed by political correctness that we have allowed a vile and determined enemy to breach what should be the safest place in America, an Army post.
We have become so politically correct that our media is more concerned about the stress of the shooter, Major Nidal Malik Hasan. The misplaced benevolence intending to portray him as a victim is despicable. The fact that there are some who have now created an entire new classification called; “pre-virtual vicarious Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)” is unconscionable.
This is not a “man caused disaster”. It is what it is, an Islamic jihadist attack.
We have seen this before in 2003 when a SGT Hasan of the 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) threw hand grenades and opened fire into his Commanding Officer’s tent in Kuwait. We have seen the foiled attempt of Albanian Muslims who sought to attack Ft Dix, NJ. Recently we saw a young convert to Islam named Carlos Bledsoe travel to Yemen, receive terrorist training, and return to gun down two US Soldiers at a Little Rock, Arkansas Army recruiting station. We thwarted another Islamic terrorist plot in North Carolina which had US Marine Corps Base, Quantico as a target.
What have we done with all these prevalent trends? Nothing.
What we see are recalcitrant leaders who are refusing to confront the issue, Islamic terrorist infiltration into America, and possibly further into our Armed Services. Instead we have a multiculturalism and diversity syndrome on steroids.
Major Hasan should have never been transferred to Ft Hood, matter of fact he should have been Chaptered from the Army. His previous statements, poor evaluation reports, and the fact that the FBI had him under investigation for jihadist website posting should have been proof positive.
However, what we have is a typical liberal approach to find a victim, not the 13 and 30 Soldiers and Civilian, but rather the poor shooter. A shooter who we are told was a great American, who loved the Army and serving his Nation and the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR) stating that his actions had nothing to do with religious belief.
Cont...
We know that Major Hasan deliberately planned this episode; he did give away his possessions. He stood atop a table in the confined space of the Soldier Readiness Center shouting “Allahu Akhbar”, same chant as the 9-11 terrorists and those we fight against overseas in the Iraq and Afghanistan theaters of operation.
No one in leadership seems willing to sound the alarm for the American people; they are therefore complicit in any future attacks. Our Congress should suspend the insidious action to vote on a preposterous and unconstitutional healthcare bill and resolve the issue of “protecting the American people”.
The recent incidents in Dearborn Michigan, Boston Massachusetts, Dallas Texas, and Chicago Illinois should bear witness to the fact that we have an Islamic terrorism issue in America. And don’t have CAIR call me and try to issue a vanilla press statement; they are an illegitimate terrorist associated organization which should be disbanded.
We have Saudi Arabia funding close to 80% of the mosques in the United States, one right here in South Florida, Pompano Beach. Are we building churches and synagogues in Saudi Arabia? Are “Kaffirs” and “Infidels” allowed travel to Mecca?
So much for peaceful coexistence.
Saudi Arabia is sponsoring radical Imams who enter into our prisons and convert young men into a virulent Wahabbist ideology….one resulting in four individuals wanting to destroy synagogues in New York with plastic explosives. Thank God the explosives were dummy. They are sponsoring textbooks which present Islamic centric revisionist history in our schools.
We must recognize that there is an urgent need to separate the theo-political radical Islamic ideology out of our American society. We must begin to demand surveillance of suspected Imams and mosques that are spreading hate and preaching the overthrow of our Constitutional Republic……that speech is not protected under First Amendment, it is sedition and if done by an American treason.
There should not be some 30 Islamic terrorist training camps in America that has nothing to do with First Amendment, Freedom of Religion. The Saudis are not our friends and any American political figure who believes such is delusional.
When tolerance becomes a one way street it certainly leads to cultural suicide. We are on that street. Liberals cannot be trusted to defend our Republic, because their sympathies obviously lie with their perceived victim, Major Nidal Malik Hasan.
I make no apologies for these words, and anyone angered by them, please, go to Ft Hood and look into the eyes of the real victims. The tragedy at Ft Hood Texas did not have to happen. Consider now the feelings of those there and on every military installation in the world. Consider the feelings of the Warriors deployed into combat zones who now are concerned that their loved ones at home are in a combat zone.
Ft Hood suffered an Islamic jihadist attack, stop the denial, and realize a simple point.
The reality of your enemy must become your own.
Steadfast and Loyal,
Lieutenant Colonel Allen B West (US Army, Ret)
If Obama really cared about us or any victims he mentioned, he would not be trying Islamic Terrorists in court. Even the favorite liberal, FDR, refused to do that with German Sabotuers.
He is changing the rules. Why?
Christiane, when I was referring to not hearing anything about the victims, I was referring to news sources. Not White House speech writers.
BTW: I was traveling this morning and going up and down the radio dial on major news channels and all I heard for 6 hrs on news reports was about the terrorist's pain and emotional state. Not a word about the victims. We forget the victims real fast and make the terrorist into a victim. pretty much the same way the SBC does with victims of sexual predators on church staffs. Why is this?
Christiane,
That passage in Genesis makes no mention of any reconciliation between Ishmael and Israel. It only says they buried their father. Engaging in a common activity does not mean reconciliation.
The USA and the USSR were together in the Olympics for many years before there was any hint of "reconciliation". And the Bible does say Ishmael will live in hostility toward all his brothers.
That certainly seems, still, to be the case.
How do Christian people face something unspeakable? I suppose it depends on the nature of their faith in Christ the Lord.
Here is a film about the witness of some Christian people in response to the horror they experienced:
http://readingeagle.com/article.aspx?id=107756
Google up the site,
and click on 'Watch':
___________________________________ WATCH: A neighbor discuss . .
___________________________________
It is sad that, a group of protestors came to the girls' funerals and carried signs calling the children 'wh_res' .
A radio newscaster offered them money to go away and leave the Amish in peace. They refused.
Then he offered them free air-time to do their ranting if they would stop their harassment at the grave sites. They accepted. They were the Westboro Baptist Church.
I have no answers for how to respond to the incidents at Fort Hood. With a son in the military, along with two other family members, I grieve for all of our dead soldiers.
But I know that the soldiers at Fort Hood lived honorably. However we mourn them and however we react, we should do it honorably, so that the perpetrator who took them from us so cruelly, does not also take from us that honorable response. We mustn't let him have that victory.
Pax Christi,
L's
Lydia,
You said, "I would like to see us discuss how we can love our enemies and still at the very least, wise about it."
I understand your sentiment. I really do. BUT...
What wordly wisdom exists at all in that command. No matter how you look at it, that command is absolutely reckless. Only faith in God makes it possible. But even that never makes it "wise."
"That passage in Genesis makes no mention of any reconciliation between Ishmael and Israel. It only says they buried their father. Engaging in a common activity does not mean reconciliation."
Hi BOB,
Maybe the 'reconcilation' was limited to the honor Ishmael was able to pay to his dead father, who had sent him away with his mother into the desert?
A moment in a family . . . with two sons honoring their father with a decent burial, standing together at a grave-side. Nothing more, perhaps.
but still important enough to be included in the Holy Writings.
I don't know why it is there,
but it is.
I understand your sentiment. I really do. BUT...
What wordly wisdom exists at all in that command. No matter how you look at it, that command is absolutely reckless. Only faith in God makes it possible. But even that never makes it "wise."
Fri Nov 13, 07:43:00 PM 2009
Chris, Let's talk when you have kids to protect. Being wise would mean you do not hand over your children because your enemy wants them so they can make them Muslims or kill them. Let's define what loving them means. Ignoring our laws, too, like our unjust ruler is doing right now?
When I wrote 'wise', I was thinking of pure wisdom from above that James wrote about. See, I love victims, too.
Please excuse me as this is off topic from this thread.
Rex,
I was stunned to find out accidently that I know one of your kinfolk. She is a dear friend of mine at church. She was telling me about her missionary grandfather and she mentioned that our church libray has his book. She went to get it for me and I was surprised to see his name was Rex Ray and he was from Texas. He even mentions Bonhom TX in the book. Your grandfather or uncle? I am not sure.
I read the book. He was running Japenese blockades in WW2 to get medicine to the Chinese. What a story.
My friend is one of Lois' daughters if that helps you figure out the connection. Small world, huh?
Joe,
think about what you've posted to me for a minute. I'm a Christian brother, a part of God's kingdom which knows no boundaries. And I assume that you are as well.
You are telling me a fellow believer that due to your view of the country of which I happen to be a part, that my opinon about your attitude and comments have no relevance.
Since you and I are part of the same Kingdom and owe our allegiance to the same Lord, can you explain the biblical basis for your comment to me?
My Lord Wade the lion has laid down with the lamb! I could not AGREE with you more on this post.
Lin,
Yes, small world indeed. I was named after my uncle, the oldest of six brothers and two sisters.
His son took over his work in Korea for 38 years, and his grandson is a 20 plus year missionary in Australia. Also his granddaughter was a missionary for several years.
His book has about as much action as any fiction book I’ve read.
His first born died in China at five saying, “Mama, which one is our house?”
Larry,
Joe's opinion isn't unique unfortunately. Blatant Americanism seems to be an acceptable idol for many Christians today. I'd suggest reading a history of the civil war to see how that kind of thinking works out in blood.
Darby, I have really appreciated your comments up until now but I have to take issue with you on one phrase you just used.
Blatant Americanism.
I don't buy it. You have here a group of people who hate our President, don't believe in our Justice System, and consider the Constitution a barrier to their way of life. Far from advocating Freedom of Religion as our American forefathers did these hate freedom of religion and want all Muslims legislated against. Far from justice these want criminals to be sent to Cuba so that we can avoid American trials and American Justice. These are not American Patriots. I am an American. I love our Country, our Constitution, our elected President and the American values that have made our Nation great. For me, there is no difference between the radical Islamic haters who are willing to set aside human rights to kill and get their way and those who proclaim to be Americans and yet want to set aside human rights to kill to get their way. Don't tell me you are a real American, SHOW ME. And I am not even from Missouri.
Yeah Ok, I just reread what I wrote and I am sorry. What I just said was true, but there was no love there. I am going to go out now and proclaim truth to some Muslims, encourage some believers, and worship the Lord. I will see you all next week and hopefully have a better attitude.
Kristen,
I appreciate your comment about how we study the Koran and how non-Christians approach the Bible.
There are many things in the OT that cause me to blush. However, non-believers are quick to point to the teachings of Jesus and Christians' failure to take them seriously. Here we are called to love enemies, turn the other cheek, etc.
When I read the Koran, I saw no narrative context, such as the conquest of the promised land, to give context to holy war passages. All I saw were commands. These things are for all times and all places.
That is what is scarry about Islam and the ideology promoted there.
You are right that "Fundamentalist" Christians can be known for violence with oppressive lifestyles, justification for submissive wommen and children, and racial separation. But, the article is about "moderate" Muslims.
Christianity can never justify the lifestyles you describe in scripture. Islam can. It is in the Koran as timeless commands of God. Read it. See for yourself.
Isn't it interesting how more killing and maiming has gone on in the name of religion than any other motivation throughout human history.
With a background in Psychology this calls for a little analysis.
First--if we had only the OT without the NT, we could all justify killing as following a command of God. Even killing one another as did Abraham with his concubine's baby.
The fact that 2 brothers who were estranged stood beside their father's grave gives me hope that the element of reconciliation existed in the writings of the OT. I see it as a glimmer of hope.
Second--I see Reaction-Formation Psychosis in all of this. That is a state of disconnect between the inner and outer self. People with this form of Psychosis act in a way most of the time which is opposite what is inside.
The classic example is "old maid's syndrome" in which the single lady is calling the police complaining there is a man hiding under her bed or peeking through her window. Her protest and fear on the outside covers her inner wish that there WAS a man in her life!
People, like this Muslim or the abortion clinic bomber / shooter, are acting like they are dedicated Christians/Muslims while a lust for blood controls their inner selves. When the horror and mahem take place, it starts with their inner hatred instilled in a childhood of violence and lack of love shown in the first 5 years of life.
The OT stories of family hatred and turmiol (Joseph comes to mind)are all generated where there is inconsistent treatment of children one against another, or inconsistant treatment of the same child.
When a parent loves and pampers a child one minute and beats and abuses that same child in the same day, it generates a Psychotic personality. Almost all the psychotic people who have risen to a place of leadership have such a strange upbringing.
To cite a few: Richard Nixon / John Kennedy / Adoph Hitler / Saddam Hussain--perhaps, Paul Pressler or Paige Patterson. A consistently loved and forgiven child grows into an adult who is consistent and whole. An inconsistently reared and loved child has a split between a loving personality and one filled with hate.
I have a son-in-law who is a good guy most of the time, but he has another side full of abusive words and action. Why?
He could remember from childhood being spread eagled on his back with his mother spitting and wailing in his face because she got pregnant before marriage and hated this innocent child who confronted her with human failings in a super religious environment.
My son-in-law is a pitiful person who badly needs a long time of serious counseling with a wise Psychologist! My daughter has had about enough. They have 4 smart and active boys, but they have all gotten in trouble at school for using cuss words and striking out when another child gets in their territory. They do more than tussle on the floor because it soon goes to biting or nut-kicking when the urge to win overcomes civil behaviour. They are, at times, too much like their father.
(cont.)
Translate my daughter's situation to the world of Baptist life with all the turmoil since 1979, and you have some answers as to how "righteous leaders" could smile while people's lives and careers were destroyed by their actions. It happened all along the way with Baptist disputes like Norris or J.D. Gray eating up a professor at Southern who wrote his book on Genesis.
In each case, someone wanted to run the show and be the President, no matter what evil deeds were done to get it. In other words, the end justified the means to that end--one of the tanants of Communism!
I fail to see how the spirit of Christ would condone such activities. When Jesus said, "Forgive your enemies and do good to those who persecute you," he was advocating the only action which stops hatred and killing---love and a refusal to strike back.
Martin Luther King and Ghandi used such peaceful protest to rectify the inequities of a supposedly "Christian" bunch of white supremicists and the British demeaning the people of India.
"They be sick," was the wise observation of our black Wednesday Night Supper cook when she noted "You better watch out for them people with dancy eyes. They be crazy!"
I think a few of the hate mongers in this blog might look in the mirror closely to see if their eyes are dancing as they shave!
I don't buy it. You have here a group of people who hate our President, don't believe in our Justice System, and consider the Constitution a barrier to their way of life. Far from advocating Freedom of Religion as our American forefathers did these hate freedom of religion and want all Muslims legislated against. Far from justice these want criminals to be sent to Cuba so that we can avoid American trials and American Justice.
Stider, No offense but your comment is so full typical uneducated ignorance that I cannot take you seriously. I do not have time to teach you factual history or the Koran but I suggest you learn it quickly.
This is not about hating a president. I was furious with Bush for caving in on political correctness and this bizarre notion of religious freedom for Jihad. Obama is simply 100x worse.
I am sure our forefathers would have demanded that Hasan be discharged and watched closely considering his previous behavior. They would have actually cared about the potential for innocents being hurt. How quickly we forget.
As I mentioned above, FDR,your favorite liberal, refused to use the criminal justice system for even AMERICAN Germans who were sabotuers...not mass murderers.
They were tried as WAR criminals. Jihad is a WAR. A Holy WAR.
Hasan joined Jihad. He is a war criminal. KSM is a war criminal and a public trial is a HUGE mistake we will not recover from. Mark my words. This is very foolish for many reasons.
Why is Obama insisting that KSM be tried in NY? Can you explain that to me? You think it is about justice? A public trial is going to whip up emotions for more 'moderates' to jihad! You just do not understand how they think or what they believe.
BTW:How is American style justice going to work since the Koran tells them that lying to infidels is honorable and just? How will that work with Muslim witnesses in these show trials? Do you have any idea how closed mouth the Muslim community was after 9/11?
But, in the end, why is it you guys HATE the innocent and future victims of JIHAD?
Why do you love your enemies but hate nnocents and are more than willing to put them in harms way?
I just do not get it. And do not tell me you love them when you are not willing to protect them even from monsters like Hasan who gave us many clues he was in Jihad because of political correctness.
There is NO freedom of religion when their religion teaches that to kill infidels pleases god. What part of that do you not understand? Read the ENTIRE Koran and tell me how we can peacefully coexist with such teaching.
How foolish and unwise can we be? They must understand that they cannot practice Islam here in total freedom because to practice their religion means innocents must die to obtain what they view is the highest holiness. And what about the subjection of women? Does that not bother you?
Even the liberal French woke up about many of these things.
I speak as one who grew up and loved many Muslims. Muslim students lived in our home. I am not speaking as one who has been isolated from Islamic thinking and practice. It is just that I learned these things in the 70's at a very young age. My family read the Koran so we could witness to them better.
"You cannot measure the speed of a person climbing this ladder. A “moderate Muslim” could reach the top rung in a few months, or in ten years. There is no way to predict it."
Or the next day as I personally witnessed in November 1979.
Lydia:
You said--"Obama is simply 100x worse."
You are funnin us, correct.
George Bush and his group left the incoming President with so many messes no one could clean them all up in less than a year.
Tom Parker,
I think we are in more trouble in this nation due to the present administration than you realize.
Arif Alikhan was appointed as assistant secretary in the Policy Development Office of Homeland Security under the Obama Administration. Read his profile and consider the possible problems this appointment could bring to the security of this nation and the world at-large as it relates to the substance of Wade's post.
Arif Alikhan:
Former Deputy Mayor of Homeland Security and Public Safety for the City of Los Angeles.
Was responsible for derailing the LAPD's plan to monitor activities within the Los Angeles Muslim community.
Was appointed as assistant secretary for the Office of Policy Development in Barack Obama’s Department of Homeland Security in 2009.
Arif Alikhan is a Sunni Muslim born in Canada in 1968. Raised in California by Indian and Pakistani parents, he graduated from Loyola Law School and then clerked for U.S. District Judge Ronald Lew of California's Central District.
He subsequently worked as a prosecutor in the Los Angeles U.S. Attorney's office and taught law at the University of Southern California. He also spent time working for the U.S. Department of Justice as the overseer of a computer-hacking program, and then as vice chairman of the Department's Intellectual Property Task Force.
In 2002 Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa appointed Alikhan as Deputy Mayor of Homeland Security and Public Safety for the City of Los Angeles, a position he held until 2006.
During his years in Los Angeles, Alikhan was responsible for derailing Police Department efforts to monitor activities within the city’s Muslim community, where numerous radical mosques and madrassas were known to exist, and where some of the 9/11 hijackers had received support from local residents.
Hostile toward Israel, Alikhan is affiliated with the Muslim Public Affairs Council (MPAC), which has referred to the terrorist organization Hezbollah as a "liberation movement." Alikhan opposed President George W. Bush's prosecution of the war on Islamic terror.
In April 2009, Janet Napolitano appointed Alikhan as Assistant Secretary for the Office of Policy Development in Barack Obama's Department of Homeland Security. Hussam Ayloush, Executive Director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations' Los Angeles branch, praised the appointment:
“Congratulations to Mr. Alikhan on this well-deserved appointment. [His] new position reflects his and the community's dedication to helping preserve the security of our country. The American Muslim community can be proud of him."
Thirteen days prior to his Homeland Security appointment, Alikhan had participated in a MPAC fundraiser called "Be the Change," to support what the organization described as its leadership-development programs.
Tom Parker, I believe this appointment to have been a decision wherein being politically correct took priority over the security of the nation.
What do you think?
cb
The above comment's text comes from here.
I humbly submit that whatever actions and process being used against Muslims now, in the future will be used against the Christians. Make no doubt about it. What ever tools are used against them, they will come back to haunt the Christians.
In my view it is better to follow the law and act within our judicial conscience and do our best to further and support our country's foundational laws and this will in the long run help us. Short cuts and expediency will always backfire on the people promoting them.
In my view it is better to follow the law and act within our judicial conscience and do our best to further and support our country's foundational laws and this will in the long run help us. Short cuts and expediency will always backfire on the people promoting them.
Sat Nov 14, 01:03:00 PM 2009
That is the whole point, TP. We are not following OUR laws. We are making concessions for political correctness.
Keep in mind that Muslims cannot practice separation of church and state. The Koran makes that impossible.
For the life of me, I cannot understand why folks cannot see that.
What I love about Strider's comments on this post is manifold.
First, Strider speaks the truth. And that is always good.
Second, Strider speaks the truth from a place of authority.
Third, Strider's ability to ascertain the truth and his authority is derived from his obedience to going to the nations. This illustrates well the difference makers we all could be if we spent more time outside of the comfort of our own culture.
Go ye therefore.
Thy Peace,
You are correct that the article is from that site. It is also posted in other places.
I would like to ask what is your point?
Does where the article is posted make it less than true? Thy Peace the article is true. I made sure of that before I posted it here.
Let me ask you; Do you think it was a wise decision to appoint Arif Alikhan to his present post in light of his personal convictions, philosophy and religious persuasions?
cb
Islam like Judaism from what I can tell are both religions based on achieving righteousness and favor from God via adherance to law. Just about any way you want to slice it, it is 2 covenants, Hagar and Sarah (Gal 4:22-31) that seperates us rather than any geographical boundary.
We can find these extremes in a lot of places and even in the church today. Some are determined to achieve righteousness based on adherance to a strict set of laws and others achive righteousness through faith in Christ. Natural descendants of Abraham VS. spritual descendants of Abraham. Children in bondage VS. children of the free woman.
If you think a Jew looks at your faith, justification and reconciliation any different than a Muslim does then I suggest you find a local Rabbi and invite him to coffee. He will tell you real quick that as a believer in Jesus, you have no rights, no interest in the kingdom of God and never will have. He will sound a lot like that moderate Muslim.
In the end, the children of the Bond woman are going to persecute the children of the Free woman. They always will.
You folks are having a political discussion rather than trying to analyse why people act in such demonic ways under a religious guise.
I think we need to get back on the track of why evil is done in the name of God.
We claim to be a Christian nation, we also claim to be signers of the Geneva Convention--Why, then, have we committed torture in the name of Democracy at Guantanamo???
We were horrified that our POW's in the Hanoi Hilton tortured people like John McCain. We protested in horror over the actions of the Nazis with respect to prisoners of war and civilians. YET, we have done the same kind of stuff since 9/11 proud of a President elected by strong influence of the Moral Majority.
I just don't understand why we refuse to analyse why our supposed consciences allow us to do this!!
Is there a disconnect or what???
Surely, this group of intelligent people will not let this degenerate into a debate over the quality of our current Administration! That is beside the point.
Are Moderate Muslims (or Christians) the most dangerous of all???
Address the issue, PLEASE!!!
Can someone help me with some history? Are there any evidences of Muslim terrorism prior to 1940? If Islam is a religion that promotes killing infidels, there should be a long history of Muslim's killing non-believers. I'm not talking about war, but acts of terrorism and slaughter like we've seen in the past 40-50 years.
Bryan, I keep asking why folks like you and Strider do not love the innocent victims and future victims as much as the enemy but all I hear are crickets.
What folks do not want to admit is that we will have to continue to make adjustments to or ignore our civil laws for Muslims to practice their religion fully in the US. As their civil law is the Koran whether they admit it or not.
"We were horrified that our POW's in the Hanoi Hilton tortured people like John McCain."
Can you give evidence that we have withheld medical treatment? That we have allowed broken bones and infections just to continue without treatment? Can you give evidence that food has been withheld?
I was told by a military colonel just returned from there that Gitmo prisoners were getting the flu vaccine! And we have a shortage here.
Seems to me you are spouting the political lines of your party. But I do not think you have to worry for long. Our president wants to bring them here so radical Islam can be promoted even more in our prisons.
It was a campaign promise. What is taking so long? He has the votes in congress to do it if he needs congressional support to dodge the results. So what is the hold up?
Loren,
We as a nation (actually before we were a nation) have been having problems with Islamic terrorists since the days of Thomas Jefferson.
"Surely, this group of intelligent people will not let this degenerate into a debate over the quality of our current Administration! That is beside the point...Address the issue, PLEASE!!!"
And surely the intelligent person who wrote this would realize that just prior to writing it, he wrote this:
"YET, we have done the same kind of stuff since 9/11 proud of a President elected by strong influence of the Moral Majority."
So we are to infer that:
1) We can't let this "degenerate into a debate over the quality of the current administration" but it is perfectly fine to rant about the quality of the previous administration.
2) The writer is begging people to attempt what he isn't willing or able to achieve.
3) Perhaps we should wonder if it's even possible to write something without an internal contradiction one sentence away from each other.
Can someone help me with some history? Are there any evidences of Muslim terrorism prior to 1940? If Islam is a religion that promotes killing infidels, there should be a long history of Muslim's killing non-believers. I'm not talking about war, but acts of terrorism and slaughter like we've seen in the past 40-50 years.
Sat Nov 14, 02:18:00 PM 2009
Read the Koran. When Mohammad could not get folks to convert he started forcing it by the sword. This was the impetous for the Conquests.
Read the history of Islamic conquests starting about 600AD
Read the history of the Moors in Spain and conquests of central Asia and Africa.
(The Catholic church was not better)
The confusion with Islam is that they also spent a lot of time fighting each other for power and preeminance.
The Crusades,starting about 1000,
were a response to the spread of Islam.
But for many decades after the Crusades they were backward and poor. The rise of Islamic terrorism coincides with the discovery of oil and very bad decisions by England in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
CB Scott said:
We as a nation (actually before we were a nation) have been having problems with Islamic terrorists since the days of Thomas Jefferson.
Does "having problems with" include terrorists killing civilians? I just don't remember anything like we've seen lately in any of my history books. It seems that Islamic Terrorism is a modern phenomenon. Jihad seems to be much more a cultural/political event than one motivated by religious doctrine. The Arabs in Iraq and Afghanistan are killing one another more than they are killing infidels.
Loren,
Killing civilians? Yes in Jefferson's day they killed civilians.
And before Jefferson's day they killed civilians.
Did you read Lydia's last comment?
Have you read the Koran?
cb
It is a strange religion that COMMANDS us to reach out to our 'enemies' and care for them; to disarm their hatred with our love; to no longer see them as 'the others' but to see them as 'our brothers, our sisters, our neighbors'.
Yes, it is a very strange religion indeed that COMMANDS us to love our enemies and do good to those who revile us.
The Commandment to "Love one another as I have loved you," does not stop where there are boundaries and borders and differences.
There is a Power in this strange religion to use love in order to disarm hatred: to calm the seas of anger.
We know from Whence this Power comes to us.
How quickly our earthly wisdom pales in His Presence.
And how quickly our pride in our own understanding crumbles before Him, Whose Ways are so far above ours.
Pax Christi
"It is a strange religion that COMMANDS us to reach out to our 'enemies' and care for them; to disarm their hatred with our love; to no longer see them as 'the others' but to see them as 'our brothers, our sisters, our neighbors'."
The innocent victims are your neighbors, too. So what about them? They might even be enemies of Christ who do not kill others. Do you not love them, too? If yes, then why do you not want to protect them from those who say they want to kill us for being infidels?
You all do realize that what you are, in effect, saying is that it was a sin to fight against Hitler.
Hitler never attacked the United States. Yes, he declared war against us but he never attacked our country. Shouldn't we have simply continued to refuse to fight him and just "love" him instead?
Dear CB,
I know that you are intelligent in comment and sharp in debate, and I really have no reason to doubt you. So please take my comments in that vein.
You wrote, "We as a nation (actually before we were a nation) have been having problems with Islamic terrorists since the days of Thomas Jefferson." The only thing I can think of even remotely in this context would be the Barbary War with the Tripoli pirates, whose plow was cleaned by Stephen Decatur and the USS Constitution. I claim to be no authority in this facet of history, but can we blame their piracy on their "faith"? After all, there were plenty of English pirates who, by virtue of being citizens of England, a "Christian nation" were themselves Christian, at least as civil government defined it. And this list includes notables from Anne Bonney to Edward Teach, better known as "Blackbeard." Or are you referring to something else?
In a genuine spirit of inquiry,
John
This will not be understood by many. But I will share anyway:
From St. Luke's Gospel, Chapt.6
Love for Enemies
27 ‘But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. . . .
35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return.* Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful."
CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH
. . . blessed are the bringers of Shalom, for they shall be called the children of the Most High . . ."
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Matthew 5:9
We often misunderstand this verse because we fail to understand the Hebrew voice behind it. Jesus was not speaking English, nor Greek, but rather Hebrew. (Though the gospel is recorded in Greek for us now...and yet, there is evidence it may have been written in the Hebrew tongue originally.)
At any rate, Jesus, as a Jew, would have been using the word 'SHALOM' for peace.
This re-orients the whole meaning of this inspirational Bible verse. For us, the word 'PEACE' usually means the absence of conflict. Shalom, for a Jew, was much, much more. It was the presence of wholeness, completeness, even healing.
To 'bring shalom' means to bring healing and wholeness, to lives, people, the world.
So when Jesus calls on His followers to be "peacemakers," He is calling them to be the ones to bring healing and wholeness to a broken world.
To have Christian love for one's enemy does not mean that we do not have Christian love for victims.
That false dichotomy can NOT exist in Christianity.
Christian love is found abundantly in Christ and only in Christ, and its abundance is not at the mercy of our own limited ability to care for others.
We cannot love our enemies unless we do this 'in Christ the Lord'. We are unable to care for our enemies without Him. It is His Commandment and He gives us the grace to do it.
In His Grace, we are no longer limited in our ability to care for one another, whomever they may be.
RE-ESTABLISHING JUSTICE ?
It is in the 'bringing of shalom', that love may be expressed in way that re-establishes justice honorably, without sacrificing mercy.
John,
Jefferson had dealt with the pirates of Tripoli prior to Decatur's deployment. Even prior to his being President of the US.
He found that they "justified" much of their piracy and other activities by their faith. It seemed that they considered their chosen Life-style as a duty as Muslims.
John, I must confess, it has been a long time since I read of all of this and I am kinda shooting from the hip in order to give you an answer to a fair question. But this is what sticks out in my mind and prompted my answer to Loren.
cb
L's,
I may be mistaken, but I think you have family in the Armed Services; correct?
If so, would you expect them to not defend this nation and its citizens against Islamic terrorists?
BTW, you made this statement:
"It is a strange religion that COMMANDS us to reach out to our 'enemies' and care for them; to disarm their hatred with our love; to no longer see them as 'the others' but to see them as 'our brothers, our sisters, our neighbors'."
We are told to love our enemies, that is true. We are not told to see them as brothers and sisters.
Lost people are not our brothers and sisters. The concept of the "Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man" is not biblical.
I feel that you are making your argument from a position of "Universalism." Of course, I may be wrong.
But, I do believe you have requested prayer for your relatives in the Armed Services. In your request for prayer are you not requesting prayer for their safety and victory over our enemies?
Certainly you would not be requesting our prayer that your relatives lay down their arms and die at the hands of our enemies in order to "disarm their hatred with love" are you?
cb
There is absolutely NO COMPARISON between the honorable service of our sons and daughters in the Armes Forces
and
hate-mongering.
There's an old trick for folks wanting to go into the woods without getting poison ivy: lather bar soap all over your exposed skin and let it dry. I swear there are some commenters that will slip and slide out of everything they write so much so that it's impossible to have any meaningful dialog.
L's,
Does it mean I am hate-mongering because I say Wade's post has credible substance and have made comments to support it as such?
How am I hate-mongering to remind you that your relatives and mine have sworn an oath to protect this nation in our behalf from its enemies?
You as do I request prayer for them.
I want them to be successful and come home safely. I also know that for them to be successful and come home safely they are going to have to kill our enemies on our behalf.
Armies kill on behalf of their nation. We are at war. War is always about killing people.
L's your relatives kill on your behalf. That is war. Your relatives are in the business of war. I pray for their victory.
L's I honestly do not understand your position. it seems very contradictory and convoluted to me.
cb
I will DEFEND our HONORABLE service members by repeating what I said.
"There is absolutely
NO COMPARISON
between the HONORABLE service of our sons and daughters in the Armes Forces
and
hate-mongering."
OK L's,
And I will continue to pray that your relatives and mine come home safely having successfully defeated our enemies.
And I promise you that their efforts to come home safely and successfully with not be dependent upon "loving our enemies into submission."
cb
NYT > Tangle of Clues About Suspect at Fort Hood.
There seems to be a lot of confusion here about who is the enemy. I thought I was very clear in the beginning. Islam is an Antichrist. Is there anything unclear about that? Can I get more inflammatory in my speech, less politically correct? Lydia seems to think that because I do not phrase things the way she likes that I must be a Democrat (said my hero was FDR). I thought that was very funny. So, because Bryan Riley was so gracious to me I will very early on this Sunday morning try to be clear.... again.
Our civil government should most certainly follow its very excellent laws and Constitution and utilize its armed forces and civil forces to keep its citizens safe. They should do this but you know and I know they can not succeed. The battle we fight in this world is not against flesh and blood. Many of you are thinking, 'Man, if only I had had a gun and was there I would have stopped that murderous jerk in Texas.' I am asking you to have more faith than that. Almighty God sees what a murderous jerk that guy is. He sees and he grieves. He sees and is so concerned about it that He sent his only Son do die in a brutal war for the souls of men and women. Don't wish that you were there with a gun. Believe that if you were their with the Word of God you could have made a real difference. As this war has gotten uglier we are losing faith. What is the most powerful force on the planet today? The only force that will remain when all other forces are left in the dust? Love. Many of you don't believe this anymore. You will rail against this decrying love as weak willed and insipid. I wish you could see the tears in my eyes when you say things like that. I wish you could see the tears in our Lord's eyes when you say His forgiveness, His love, His cross, is not enough to make a difference. The title of this post should tell you more than you are discussing. Who is Nidal Hasan? He was a Muslim terrorist. Who is he now? He is a champion, a prince, a hero of the faith who is making a difference in the lives of many. How did that happen? Guns, violence, correctly applied laws? No, the love and forgiveness of God shared by the people of God who did not see him as the enemy but as a child of God. This world is going to get uglier. Our enemy wants you to believe that love and forgiveness is for the weak. The Gospel is the power of God for salvation. Our President, our Government, our military can not offer that. You can. Never let go of that.
OK, I messed up. Mossab Hassan is the guy Wade quotes who in now a follower of Jesus. Nidal was the jerk. Sorry for my early morning confusion.
Webster's Dictionary
hatemonger definition
hate·mon·ger (hāt′muŋ′gər, -mäŋ′-)
noun
a propagandist who seeks to provoke hatred and prejudice, esp. against a minority group or groups
Strider,
This is a true statement:
"The Gospel is the power of God for salvation. Our President, our Government, our military can not offer that. You can. Never let go of that."
Please know that since I became a follower of Christ I have not "let that go."
But, I also know that a violent stand is necessary very often in the affairs of men as it relates to stopping evil.
I also know that had some one been armed among those who died at Ft. Hood it is highly probable that fewer lives would have been lost. Notice I used the word "probable."
Remember it was an armed first responder who stopped the bloodshed. And it was by shedding blood that it was stopped.
Your life and mine is about the gospel. It is our calling. It must be our primary cause in all things.
Yet, I remember the "other" and the necessity of the "other" in the affairs of fallen men and the war between good and evil that plays out in flesh and blood.
I would to the Lord that all the world was as you Strider. But I know that is not and never will be the case prior to the Coming of the Lord.
Therefore, I know that sometimes the shedding of blood will be necessary. I thank God for the first responders who shot the Islamic terrorist at Ft. Hood. They were not able to love him into submission. The situation had escalated beyond that long before he went into those buildings with weapons.
Yet,I will also share the guilt of American Christians that we did not share the love of the gospel with this lost man who ultimately brought violent destruction upon so many along with himself. And he has brought untold sorrow upon the hearts of his own family who has to live with this terrible thing.
I do pray that Christians reach out with the love of the gospel to his family as did the Amish families in Pennsylvania reach out to the family of the murderer of their children.
Strider, you and I are sojourners here, but we are still here and as long as we are we are accountable to proclaim the gospel. We are also accountable in our sojourning to protect the innocent from the inherent evil of our temporary abode.
You and I are not so different Strider. But our eyes have seen different "landscape" maybe even as we view the same peoples at various times in our lives.
God bless you if tomorrow comes and you take up the Book for the sake of the gospel.
cb
So, L's,
Am I being a hate-monger here?
cb
FROM 'THE BAPTIST STANDARD':
"Working a minimum of 12 hours a day since the shooting, Palmer, a chaplain endorsed by the Southern Baptist North American Mission Board, said counseling for the grieving and traumatized ramped up Nov. 9, the first workday back for most of the more than 50,000 officers and enlisted men and women at Fort Hood. Most Fort Hood personnel were given the day off the previous Friday because of the incident.
“I personally counseled nine people on Monday, including people who were present at the shooting scene as well as people who carried bodies out of the building and saw them covered with white sheets. We’re engaging people as fast as they walk in, but we’re getting busier because the families of the deceased are starting to arrive.
“The soldiers are grieving about the loss they’ve seen with their own eyes,” Palmer said. “Some of them had seen loss while deployed in Iraq or Afghanistan, but Fort Hood is supposed to be a safe place, their home. They see this incident as wrong on so many levels. There’s a lot of anger.”
Palmer said the victims he is counseling ask questions like “How can I feel safe again in the United States in my own home, my own backyard?”
“That’s where my counseling begins,” Palmer said. “My job is to contextualize the theological issues of evil and to provide these people with hope that transcends the hurt they’re now undergoing.”
Palmer, along with more than 50 other military chaplains—not only the 12 Southern Baptist chaplains at Fort Hood but those of several other de-nominations, and including Muslim and Jewish chaplains—are counseling people from the 18 different Army units at the base impacted by the shooting.
“Many are coming in and saying, ‘I haven’t eaten or slept since the incident. I was there, saw this and did that.’
“Some come in with that seasoned, veteran look and the thousand-yard stare but once they’re in a private setting where they can be safe and vulnerable, tears stream out of their eyes,” Palmer said. “They relive stories and recount memories and dreams they can’t get out of their heads. Some are reliving the shooting in their dreams and see and hear the victims calling out for help, but they can’t help.”
Palmer said his orders originally called for him to be assigned at Fort Hood for two weeks.
“It could be longer,” he said. "
These people need our prayers, now.
Lydia, crickets are heard because I don't come to the blogs as much anymore. Strider probably doesn't even have internet access all the time, although he might.
I'd answer your question this way. 11Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. 12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
According to the Scripture, I have no human enemy. I don't always live that way, unfortunately, but it is my hope that my faith will continue to grow and my understanding of the heighth, width, breadth and depth of God's love will continue to grow as well.
I also would say I hope peace will begin with me. And you. And you. And you. "Let it begin with me." It's got to start somewhere. Actually it began on the Cross. And I will follow Him.
The shedding of blood is only necessary because of sin. Sin is simply believing the lies of the enemy rather than trusting the Truth of the Lord. Lord, Your Kingdom come.
L's made one of the most important observations in all of this and discussion got right back to nit picking.
I sense this blog is full of ego and debate over understanding what is behind "moderate Muslim hate." I would hope we all get our egos in check a little better!
L's comment was over "irene" in the Greek and "Shalom" in the Hebrew--both words describing "Peace."
Since it hardly went noticed, she was saying there is a difference between "not fighting" and "seeking a state of wholeness and reconciliation."
I think this is at the heart of our failure with the UN. Any of us who have watched the debate live quickly see they are usually talking past one another. The words are more for the sake of keeping the folks back home happy with them.
Do you remember the Egypt / Israel peace talks at Camp David with Jimmy Carter acting as moderator. Everyone scoffed that these hate filled nations would talk sensibly with one another. Carter, with a gigantic faith, got them together and great strides were made.
Then--the people back home turned their hate on the 2 men making peace and both have been killed by their own people! This is the hieght of human failure and a split personality on a national basis.
How about we discuss "irene" peace vs "shalom" peace which was beginning to break into Arab / Israeli relations, but those who love hate and war were not willing for it to happen?
Does human nature love war more than peace?
Are we capable of "shalom?"
It’s good to see C B Scott back, and especially his wisdom, and also keeping ‘his temper’ under control. :)
Maybe some of you Greek scholars could inform which is the better translation:
1. “…look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.” (John 4:35 KJ)
2. Or “…look at the fields, for they are ready for harvest. (John 4:35 Holman)
If Holman was a farmer, maybe he’d know that when a wheat field flashes ‘white’ it will fall to the ground in three days.
Maybe Jesus is saying Christians should concentrate on nations that have open doors to the Gospel before they are closed, or where the Gospel would be received.
Maybe that’s why Paul ‘gave up’ on Jews as God called him to the Gentiles. “Cross over to Macedonia and help us!”
Was Paul a ‘hate monger’ for saying, “Let God’s curse fall on anyone…who preaches any other way to be saved…if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed”? (Galatians 1:8)
Some might say he became a ‘hate monger’ when he said it the second time.
They might even call Jesus a ‘hate monger’ when he instructed:
“If a town refuses to welcome you, shake its dust from your feet as you leave to show that you have abandoned those people to their fate.” (Luke 9:5 NLT)
WHAT? DID JESUS SAY LET THEM GO TO HELL?
Since Jesus said, “Come, follow me, and I will show you how to fish for people” (Matthew 4:18 NLT), maybe we should look at the whole world as a fishing area.
I believe the “white fields” are those where fish are biting.
I don’t believe the Holy Spirit will ever work to convert the Antichrist, so why should we sweet talk Islam?
Bleeding hearts may say, ‘But if it takes ten thousand hours to convert one soul, isn’t it worth it?”
Not if those ten thousand hours would have saved ten thousand souls if one hour had been spent with each person.
Rex Ray--
You bring up some good points. I don't think Jesus was out to "jerk" anyone to him. He simply went about doing good and those who wished to follow were welcome.
On the other hand, Paul, was a different character. He was motivated by hate and arrogance when he ran around killing followers of Christ. God struck him blind on the Damascus Road to change him,
BUT--did God ever conquer that lustful and arrogant spirit which convinced him of being "right" most of the time? This, to the point he was at odds with Peter!
Peter was another arrogant follower full of bluster and ego. When 2 such characters meet each other it is like 2 alpha dogs growling and fighting over who is kind of his territory.
Contrast these 2 followers with the leader, Christ, and I think you have an interesting thing to discuss!
Would Jesus ever have been a suicide bomber???
Would--instead--Peter and Paul have tended to strap on the dynomite and pull the string????
There is absolutely
NO COMPARISON
between the HONORABLE SERVICE
of our sons and daughters
in the Armed Forces
and hate-mongering.
I'll just quote Osama bin Laden by paraphrasing. He said they attacked the World Trade Center believing we were too cowardly to fight back. He did not think we would respond to protect ourselves. Wonder what gave him that idea? Experience.
We are dealing with bullies who believe it is honorable to kill innocent infidels. And bullies love folks like you. You actually enable their violence against innocents.
I find it interesting that folks think it is a sin to protect the innocent. So, I am assuming when someone breaks into your home to murder your family, you will do nothing to try and protect them.
Darby, Platitudes are great because you never have to deal with the hard questions you can just call folks hatemongers.
And the military kills people and breaks things so I am a bit shocked that the same folks that call us hatemongers think they are honorable. (wink)
Who is calling anyone hate mongers?
A statement is made.
Three times.
And some take it personally.
The statement is what it is.
And I stand by it.
I think of my son who came home this summer on leave from the Coast Guard.
I want to share something he said, because it still haunts me.
I was blogging on a Christian blog site where there was the usual give-and-take that is sometimes called 'iron sharpening iron' or some such thing.
There was the usual 'drive-by quoting of Scripture' as verses were hurled back and forth.
My son sat down at the computer with me and read some of what was there.
What he said was this:
"Mom, those people hate each other."
I took a deep breath and looked at him: all six-foot three, blond giant Joel, heart of my own heart, who 'joined up' because of 9-11, and I explained to him this:
'No, Joel, that's not it.
The conversation that followed lasted for two cups of coffee, and
we talked of many things . . .
but I know and have known, that my son signed up for LOVE of his home-land, our way of life, and his loved ones.
I made a statement.
I made it three times, in honor of my son, and all who serve.
No accusations are in my statement.
Will it be used to 'stir up hatred'?
Not by me.
These are the words of Southern Baptist Chaplain Palmer, serving at Fort Hood:
"“My job is to contextualize the theological issues of evil and to provide these people with hope that transcends the hurt they’re now undergoing.”
Not a word of hate-mongering from this good chaplain. He speaks of transcending the hurt and providing people with hope.
God bless this man. He is a servant of Our Lord and will bring comfort to those he cares for.
Chaplain Palmer would understand the statement that I have made three times. He would understand it very, very well.
Caritas Christi,
L's
Just when I think I have made a final comment here Rex Ray has to annoy me something awful.
REX RAY! Why? Why are judging with human judgment? Have you not seen? Have you not heard? Our God is moving mightily among Muslims today. Thousands are coming to faith in Christ. And the price! The price that these bold brothers and sisters are facing for proclaiming truth in hostile territory is incredible. Look at this world with the eyes of your heart friend. Ripe unto harvest? No one is more ready to hear the Gospel than those living next door to fundamentalist nut cases. Who will tell them the truth they are desperate to hear? I will. I am. When you start throwing around your ignorance you are talking about the people I have been called to. Is it hard? You bet but David without Goliath was just a shepherd boy! God is being glorified by men and women who are coming to Him in dark awful places. Heaven is being filled with glorious saints who will surround the throne forever. They can turn and thank you for helping them get there or wonder why you didn't do more to make an eternal difference. I know what I am living for.
Lydia, I am not sure who you are. Are you determined to blindly spew anger or are you someone who really wants to pursue truth. Well, love hopes all things so let me try to be clear one more time and then I will not respond to you again.
To be clear about who I am and what I believe:
I am the son of a career air force pilot who did two tours of duty in Viet Nam. I love my country very much. I love Americans. I believe in a strong military. I love it when our Country stands up and defends the weak and defenseless. I run into our soldiers on rare occasion here in Middle Earth and when I do I am filled with pride and admiration for their discipline, their courage, and their compassionate hearts. I expect my Government to provide just such a military and use it wisely. This is my Government's job.
I am more importantly a Citizen of God's Kingdom. My message and the message of the Church is Jesus Christ. My Government can do some earthly good. It can do no eternal good whatsoever. God's Kingdom is eternal. His Church must proclaim Jesus and Him alone because that is our responsibility and the only thing that will make an eternal difference in the lives of my friends and my enemies. When the Church starts proclaiming fear, militarism, revenge, protectionism, capitalism, socialism or any other thing not Jesus it forfeits its right to have eternal consequences. God will not share His glory with these temporal things. I am thankful for a strong military. I pray for it, my President and all our elected leaders to do their part with God's guidance. But my part and the part of the Church is to proclaim Jesus alone. Clear?
Not that it matters, but I could say much the same as Strider, only with detail differences such as the fact that my father was in the Army. The point is the difference between the world's ways and the Kingdom. The sphere of Government is not where I am operating.
Thank you, Strider, for taking time to write out an eleqoent and discerning response so that I don't have to. :)
Folks--
We are turning a resonable observation that started this blog into an argument about war and hate mongering.
We are way off the track here!
I think L's deserves more respect for her relative who is in the military. What we should be saying is that war is awful, but we pray for those called up for this sad duty.
What encourages me is that many of our soldiers are compassionate people who are taking little children in their arms and crying over injured comrads as well as innocent people who get hurt with peripheral damage.
War is a serious undertaking and should be reserved to a last resort.
Further, we need to use some better sense when we commit our armed forces into a gorilla war area where you cannot tell friend from foe very easily. Our own history with the Revolutionary War proves if you send formal forces against rebels defending their homeland and way of life, you could get your hinnie whipped! Although the British had fancy uniforms and mighty cannons with formations to boggle the eye, our rebellious forefathers knew the hills and hollers and swamps so we hit and ran them into giving up!
I think, in the middle east situation, we would have been much wiser to keep it covert with special forces.
Also remember, we went into this mess with a President claiming Weapons of Mass Destruction as the urgent motivator and Ossama ben Laden as the target---so how the heck did we end up going after Saddam Hussain????
Neither the weapons or Ossama have been yet found or captured--duh!!! In addition, there is no exit strategy. Do we really think we can take a bunch of Middle Eastern citizens and turn them into Democrats and Republicans??
When we show, by our ideals being made a reality, that we have a country so great no one would not want it, then they will want it so bad they will work towards it.
Right now, despite their shortcomings, I'm not sure we have anything better to offer. Remember, we had our own bomber in Oklahoma City / David Koresh / the DC sniper / etc.
Have we shown the rest of the world we are better when Kennedy X 2 were assasinated and MLK was shot as well? God help us to present a better picture of democracy so that the rest of the world might want the freedom and equlity we espouse.
I'm just not sure we are living what we preach!!!
Especially--when such rabid criticism and hatred is thrown at our new president--especially from the Religious Right. Will he have to die as well for advocating deplomacy before sending the wrath of Hell with our guided bombs and gattling guns. Have you ever seen a picture from a helocopter gun camera as the "smoke him" command is given and the human under it is blown into a pile of bloody mush???
How much would you love and respect a foreign force on our soil doing such things to both the military and innocent civilians?
SOMETHING OF 'JOY':
http://vimeo.com/6428069
Good Sabbath Everyone,
Love, L's
"A statement is made.
Three times.
And some take it personally."
Why not be direct and say who you were talking about here. It is so much easier to talk in general platitudes and thenclaim you were not talking about any one person specifically. So, who are the hatemongers here?
I will take direct and honest anyday but that seems to be considered hateful anymore. Innuendos are much easier.
Strider, we seem to be talking past one another. Have you ever considered what you would do if faced with your family being terrorized? As one in God's kingdom on earth, would you try to protect them or not?
Interesting sermon today from Pastor Wade that balances this post.
If you watch the video, it's titled "Love Does Not Take Into Account Wrongs", 1 Cor 13:5, Part 11 of series, Nov 15, 09. The sermon notes are not yet posted, but you should find them here. (you will also find the notes in the bottom of the video viewer)
The sermon is from 00:30:20 to 01:02:00.
Lydia,
One thing I've decided for myself is that if I am questioning whether someone is referring to me with their words when they aren't doing so directly (and sometimes aren't intending to at all) then there is likely a reason why I'm feeling that way and I need to consider the reason why. It seems for me that it is often because I am feeling a note of conviction or testing.
You directed your last question only at Strider, but as for me, if someone were invading my house, I have no idea how I would react. My hope is that I would ask God for protection and direction and then that I would do whatever He directed me to do. however, knowing myself, in my flesh I might very well not even think of praying and immediately do all I could in my own power to stop the invader. I hope that I wouldn't do that, and I hope that I would trust in the Lord to be my refuge and defense, but I all too often take matters into my own hands rather than trusting the most trustworthy hands there are.
"One thing I've decided for myself is that if I am questioning whether someone is referring to me with their words when they aren't doing so directly (and sometimes aren't intending to at all) then there is likely a reason why I'm feeling that way and I need to consider the reason why. It seems for me that it is often because I am feeling a note of conviction or testing."
Sorry Bryan, that is not the case here. There is much more to it but I won't go into it on Wade's blog. But just to let you know, I do not take the stuff I do not like about people here to other blogs when the topic is not even related. Some here do.
I AM convicted to protect the innocent as much as I can. That would include those who are molested in churches and the SBC protects the molester or victims of Islamic terrorists. It includes speaking out about the treatment of Dr. Klouda, and so on.
It is that simple. And I believe that as a Kingdom person who witnesses to Muslims. I grew up in a family that has witnessed to Muslims since they started coming here to attend University.
I also believe that God is moving mightly when it comes to Muslims. And He is not just using us, He is using dreams about Isa.
LYDIA, is this 'inoffensive' enough for you?
"I have no answers for how to respond to the incidents at Fort Hood. With a son in the military, along with two other family members, I grieve for all of our dead soldiers.
But I know that the soldiers at Fort Hood lived honorably. However we mourn them and however we react, we should do it honorably, so that the perpetrator who took them from us so cruelly, does not also take from us that honorable response. We mustn't let him have that victory."
What IS an honorable response?
Obviously you think my statement was 'out of line'.
I disagree.
There is something about these honorable young warriors that is so far above the 'hate screed' that when I see anyone using them as fuel for their agendas against minorities, I want to scream.
I'm a mom, Lydia. I'm upset, as we all are by this week's events.
My SON, and those that serve with him are not motivated by contempt for anyone.
They are the pride of our country. We do not deserve them. They are the best of who we are. We should honor their goodness in ways that celebrate how much they've sacrificed for us. That is why I wrote the statement. Go ahead and be ‘offended’ if you care to.
My statement is not about YOU, trust me, it’s about THEM.
Christa Brown wrote this earlier today on the Big Daddy Weave:
“I’ve seen, hear and experienced the ugly, awful, ignorant and downright hateful sides of a whole lot of people who carry the “Baptist” name. I suppose if I were to go by percentages, I’d have to say that I’ve met a higher percentage of people whose conduct reflects Christian principles among the Muslims I’ve encountered than among the Baptists I’ve encountered. But of course, human beings aren’t a matter of generalities and percentages. And that’s true regardless of whatever faith or non-faith label they attach to themselves.”
If you want to attack ME, no problem.
MY STATEMENT: I agree with Christa’s defense of minorities.
Perhaps that will help give you something that I said that is more appropriate to attack, than the statement I made that honors our sons and daughter’s integrity?
Here's more:
I believe it is a great sin against innocent people to attack them for their faith in a country where our soldiers have died to defend freedom of religion.
I believe that there are Muslim people of integrity and decency in our country who must now suffer at the hands of the hatemongers among us. And they will. And their children, especially their children. You can count on it.
God have mercy on us all.
L's: I love you dearly. To balance what is being said here ... In general baptists are more vociferous than other religious groups.
Having said that, I would like to contrast what is being said in this post to Muslim Theology. The origins of Jihadis in general is mainly due to the Mulsim Theology that is being taught to mostly middle class muslims. If you are without a job and aimless, then these theologies draw you in into their thinking. The main point of Mossab Hassan is that these are written down as edicts in the Koran.
Mind you I am not saying that Nidal Hassan is a Jihadi. I do not know what he is or what happened to him. The NYT post, sheds some light into what went on.
The only way to combat this Muslim Theology is in my view multi-pronged:
- Do our best to spread the Gospel in the Muslim world.
- Do our best to educate the Muslim World and wean them away from the Madrassas. Especially if you focus on the education for women, then their lot will be better.
- Do our best to improve their economic well being.
What happened in the Nazi rise, is the influence of "wrong" philosophy in the early 19th century.
So in my view this is a philosophical or theological issues and they need to be fought in that domain.
In my view war is not going to help much. Example: In Afghanistan, the current regime of Karzai is very corrupt. Any money being thrown into Afghanistan, especially for arms and weaponry and soldiers will be pocketed by the corrupt officials.
In my view it is always better to work from the people up and not from top down as being done in the past 20 years.
Lot of times, I feel what has been done in Iraq and Afghanistan so far has been a waste. So also in Pakistan. The people who deeply care for these countries are not in power. And for some reason whomever the US is blessing ending up being corrupt in the end. It is a really sad story. And the people below are the ones who are suffering the most.
Dear THY PEACE,
We both have heard Wade's sermon today. We can trust that God will somehow bring good out of what has happened.
But I hope our good Christian people realize that when they talk around their own children in ways that express intolerance, that their children absorb it. And this hurts them terribly. Children don't have the judgment to deal with the effects of emotional appeals to be intolerant of those who are 'different'. They act out.
Hate is a strange force. We can choose to activate it, but we cannot control the extent of its consequences. 'Oh, I didn't mean for this to happen . . . ' is a sincere statement from many young people.
Preaching hate can lead to, and has led to the harassment, the beatings, the bullying, and even the deaths of minorities. That needs to be said.
It is wrong not to say this openly, even if some find it offensive.
L's,
Do you really agree with this statement?
"I suppose if I were to go by percentages, I’d have to say that I’ve met a higher percentage of people whose conduct reflects Christian principles among the Muslims I’ve encountered than among the Baptists I’ve encountered. But of course, human beings aren’t a matter of generalities and percentages. And that’s true regardless of whatever faith or non-faith label they attach to themselves.”
Think about this statement and what it conveys. Maybe you are speaking more from emotion today than normal. Maybe you are just having a bad day.
Surely you do not mean to say Muslims that you have met reflect Christian principles more than the Baptists you have met do you?
It is my opinion that you really do not believe that. At least I hope you don't.
Because if you do, it is not because Baptists have failed. It is because you have met very few true Muslims. And the Baptists you have met are simply not Baptists at all.
Christa Brown has made a very extreme statement here. And maybe she is speaking from hurt, anger and pain. I don't know.
But, I just can't really believe you agree. And maybe that is because I just do not want to believe you agree.
cb
Lydia said:
"I also believe that God is moving mightly when it comes to Muslims. And He is not just using us, He is using dreams about Isa."
I remember as far back as the late 70s and early 80s hearing testimonies like this in the PI and other places. I was skeptical at first. But I later realized that God was moving among Muslims and others in a great way.
There was an old man who lived up in the mountains on the Big Island. He came down out of those mountains one day hunting someone who could tell him about Jesus. He said he had dreamed about Him.
You know, it has been a long time and I have forgotten some of those wonders of the past. Thank you Lydia for bringing that up in this discussion. It will finish the day for me as I wonder in amazement at the grace of a glorious and holy God who save sinners among whom I am chief. God's grace is sufficient for old mountain tribesmen and for men with bloody hands.
cb
As usual, Christiane, you twist the topic to make yourself look so sweet.(unless you think they are a fundy conservative, then the claws come out..by alluding to the fact that anyone who disagrees with you on this is full of hate..oh and hates minorities! The Lt Colonel West whose statement I posted earlier is black, btw)
But, once again, I must point out that you still did not answer my direct question: Who are the hatemongers on this thread you continue to refer to?
With that, I am done.
The one thing everyone on this stream has in common:
The "hate mongers" and the "love mongers" are equally self-assured and willing to go to the mats defending themselves. So let's stop pretending we don't all believe there is a time to fight.
"You know, it has been a long time and I have forgotten some of those wonders of the past. Thank you Lydia for bringing that up in this discussion."
The Joel prophecy is at work!
I have some family who work in Muslim countries as missionary/aid workers. (not SBC) who report this sort of thing has happened where they are. They have had several people seek them out who have dreamed about Isa as being God (in some folk Islam traditions, Isa is a prophet and good 'man') and want to know more about who Isa really is. It is very dangerous for them to seek truth.
So let's stop pretending we don't all believe there is a time to fight.
Sun Nov 15, 11:19:00 PM 2009
Amen and
Hilarious!
Some things to think about:
"In [God's] hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind" (Job 12:10).
Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.
The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.
The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good."
Just for the record, I think the first statement about ‘hate mongers’ was made by Gene S in saying “I think a few of the hate mongers in this blog…” Sat Nov 14, 8:29 AM
And speaking of Gene,
I want to thank you for saying, “You bring up some good points. I don’t think Jesus was out to ‘jerk’ anyone to him. He simply went about doing good and those who wished to follow were welcome.”
But why didn’t you finish your conclusion? ‘…and those who did not wish to follow him would go to hell.’
That’s why Jesus said to shake the dust off.
You’re right about Saul/Paul being motivated by hate and arrogance before Damascus, but afterwards God DID conquer that lustful and arrogant spirit to the point:
“To the weak I became weak, in order to win the weak. I have become all things to all people, so that I may by all means save some.” (1 Corinthians 9:22)
And being at odds with Peter was not because Paul and Peter were alpha dogs growling and fighting over territory; it was because Peter was WRONG in being afraid of the ‘powerful friends of James’ who believed you had to be circumcised to be saved. (Had to believe in inerrancy. Ha)
Strider,
You said that I annoyed you something awful. Why didn’t you discuss from your point of view the “good points” that Gene said I made instead of questioning my knowledge of what God is doing?
You said, “Thousands are coming to faith in Christ.”
Wade had a post a while back about how great numbers of the lost were being REPORTED to be saved and the REPORTED number of churches being started.
It was quite an eye-opener. Have you read it?
I think you may be protesting too much because maybe you’re asking yourself if what you’re doing is really the Lord’s call.
Is it strange God would call the most missionaries per person in the world where Paul left? I’m afraid too many followed their wants without knowing it was ‘theirs’ and not God’s.
I wouldn’t be saying this without knowing my son’s frustration of spending seven years in Israel without one Muslim convert.
Since he and his wife had five boys, maybe the closest convert was one that said, “I’d be a Christian if I knew God would give me five sons.”
’I'm afraid too many followed their wants without knowing it was ‘theirs’ and not God’s.'
That's right Rex, we are having a great time doing just what we want to do out here. It is so much fun living in a Muslim country. I don't understand why all the Muslims want to leave.
I can't speak to your son's situation because I don't know him. I do know that it took me ten years to see the fruit that lasts. Most out here don't have the perseverance to see real fruit. It's tough, no doubt. I did not see Wade's post on numbers. Like I said, I can only tell you what my experiences are here in my part of the world. The results are in: God is moving. Do you have what it takes to be a part of it?
Hey Bryan Riley, there is a YWAM team coming in later today who will stay at our guesthouse. Some of them have listed that they are coming from Kona and a woman named Tara is on the list. Is your wife in Middle Earth?
It would be amazing if she were - if we all were, but, alas, no. We (our family) are heading to Mindanao in about a month to give our Christmas away, blessing homes that have nearly nothing with a bible, toy, food, toothbrushes and the like.
I just sent you a note - praying for you! I'm excited you will be working with one of our teams. I pray they will be a blessing of refreshment and peace.
Lydia,
Stand strong, dear sister. "Hate mongering" can sometimes take the form of sweetness and light.
-----
Tom
http://www.baptists4ethics.com/news.php?viewStory=15176
An interesting article by Robert Parham.
WARNING: the 'fear and smear' fringe crowd will run from this because it shines a very bright light into their dark world.
L's,
First it was hate-mongering. Now "fear and smear" fringe crowd?
Who among those of us who have commented on this thread belongs in these groups?
cb
Strider,
Part of me wants to praise you for being tough enough to ‘hang in there’, but I wish for future missionaries to see the reality of where their efforts would do the MOST good.
You answered the question that I didn’t ask which was how long was it before you saw someone saved. You said, “I do know that it took me ten years to see the fruit that lasts.”
On that basis, I question your statement that I first heard from Jerry Rankin’s letter to missionaries in 1997: “God is moving.”
And you’re saying: “Heaven is being filled…”
Ten years and heaven is being filled?
Think of the ones that would have gone to heaven if they had only heard without being ‘pounded’ with the Gospel for 2000 years?
Look unto the fields that are WHITE for harvest.
It was politial correctness and faux tolerance that allowed Hasan to kill those innocent people.
The FBI was watching him and knew he was involved in some extreme Muslim activities. But anyone who would dare say anything before innocents are murdered would be considered hateful and hatemongering minorities. So folks have to die first. But even then, they are still called hatemongers.
So, the innocents died for political correctness. Was it worth it? How many more?
I can imagine that the following site is similar to the places where some 'christians' get their hate screed inspiration,
but I strongly suspect that this particular site is dead-on satire.
If it isn't a satire, then it sure explains a lot about where some people are coming from.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/sermons/witches.html
It used to be virtuous to defend the innocent at any price, including violence against an attacker. But some have bought into a reworked notion of virtue that defends the attackers at the expense of the innocent victims, calling that "love."
Jesus said there is no greater love than a man laying down his life for his friends. This idea of love has also been reworked, something along the lines of: there is no greater love than accepting and defending those who take the lives of our friends. I just wish if people were going to be so liberally "loving", they'd be that with their own lives instead of everyone else's.
"The prohibition of murder
does not abrogate
the right to render
an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.
Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good."
THE COMMON GOOD: this is a value of orthodox Christianity and of Judaism.
Orthodox Christianity does not include far-right extremists who call themselves 'Christians'.
I'm lovin it.
Joe, you're a hoot.
"You right-wing extremist!!!"
So Joe, How do you like being lumped in with an egal far right extremist who is not a real orthodox 'Christian" ?(or so she alludes in generalities again) :o)
L's,
I posted the following question to you last evening. Maybe you missed it.
I would really like to read your response if you would not mind:
"L's,
Do you really agree with this statement?
"I suppose if I were to go by percentages, I’d have to say that I’ve met a higher percentage of people whose conduct reflects Christian principles among the Muslims I’ve encountered than among the Baptists I’ve encountered. But of course, human beings aren’t a matter of generalities and percentages. And that’s true regardless of whatever faith or non-faith label they attach to themselves.”
Think about this statement and what it conveys. Maybe you are speaking more from emotion today than normal. Maybe you are just having a bad day.
Surely you do not mean to say Muslims that you have met reflect Christian principles more than the Baptists you have met do you?
It is my opinion that you really do not believe that. At least I hope you don't.
Because if you do, it is not because Baptists have failed. It is because you have met very few true Muslims. And the Baptists you have met are simply not Baptists at all.
Christa Brown has made a very extreme statement here. And maybe she is speaking from hurt, anger and pain. I don't know.
But, I just can't really believe you agree. And maybe that is because I just do not want to believe you agree.
cb"
Dear C.B.,
My statement was that I agree with Christa's defense of minorities.
She is one of my heros.
I do not share her Baptist faith, but I am completely in support of her advocacy of victims of abuse.
Her comment was personal to her, C.B., and I have not had her experiences with Muslims.
But Christa is right-on in suggesting that those who drum up hatred towards a minority faith are way out of line.
C.B., you are a fair and honest man who has integrity.
Judge for yourself this, and you do not need to reply to me. I just want you to think about this:
Suppose a group of Christian people begin a campaign against those of another faith, a campaign that makes accusations against ALL members of that faith.
And suppose there are families of the targeted faith in the community, families with children.
So, the campaign is a success: these families are driven from their homes after much suffering, particulary on the part of the children.
Where is Christ in all of this?
Where is He?
Was He just a black-and-white word in a book called the Bible?
Or was He ever considered?
Christa would have considered Him, if she had been in that community, I'm sure of it. And she would have spoken out against the abuse.
I would have, too. I honestly think you would have, also, if you had a chance to stop people from getting harmed. I know you would.
I am surprised, always, at the venom that is unleased towards minorities: whether they be the mentally-challenged, gay people, people of other faiths, women, the list of potential victims of abuse is endless.
But when Christian people are involved in releasing that venom, they have to know that they are the instruments of causing pain to others. Satan will take over. And such a Christian cannot later say: 'I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to happen' when an innocent is harmed.
Just think about it.
BTW: I disagree with you about God not being the Father of all mankind. (Does your Bible have the Book of Job?)
L's,
Why did you delete your response to me?
I am going to respond to you anyway, because you know and I know what you wrote.
Christa Brown made only one statement in the thread a Big Daddy's blog.
She said:
"I’ve seen, heard and experienced the ugly, awful, ignorant and downright hateful sides of a whole lot of people who carry the “Baptist” name. I suppose if I were to go by percentages, I’d have to say that I’ve met a higher percentage of people whose conduct reflects Christian principles among the Muslims I’ve encountered than among the Baptists I’ve encountered. But of course, human beings aren’t a matter of generalities and percentages. And that’s true regardless of whatever faith or non-faith label they attach to themselves."
She did not say the things you have stated here in your response to me. She said only the above, nothing more.
My question to you was based on your saying you agree with her.
I just do not see how you can say you agree with her.
L's, it is a fact that cannot be denied that in every country wherein Muslims have dominance on this globe, Christians are purposely persecuted. Every country, L's. Every country. I have seen it up close and personal.
So your question to me does not have to be one of imagination.
Muslims are doing exactly what you are asking me what would I think and do were I there if Christians were attacking a minority.
The question is what do we do in the real life situation of Muslims attacking minorities in every country in which they have dominance?
What would you do L's, if you actually saw it?
L's,
I see you have put your comment back up. Thank you.
cb
Hi CB,
I deleted to correct some spelling.
Sorry. (will I never learn to 'preview'?)
But I re-posted.
It is true that the extremists in any faith cause harm to others.
Look at the 'Westboro Baptist Church'. And then there are the FLDS that are perpetrating forced marriage onto young girls of twelve or thirteen. I do not agree with those who say that ALL Muslims are the same as the fundamentalist extremists.
Not anymore than I agree that all Christians follow certain texts in our Bible such as 'suffer not a witch to live'.
As far a caring for our population and protecting our people, I support this teaching of my faith:
""The prohibition of murder
does not abrogate
the right to render
an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.
Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good."
I'm going to go ahead and post this, bad spelling and all.
Be Peaceful.
Much love, L's
"L's, it is a fact that cannot be denied that in every country wherein Muslims have dominance on this globe, Christians are purposely persecuted. Every country, L's. Every country. I have seen it up close and personal."
Not mention their own women. They would like the right to perform 'honor' killings on their girls who have been raped in Western coutries. Of course, they are doing it anyway. But they want it to be legal like in their own country.
Why don't you want to protect the Muslim women, L's?
Muslims are very hospitable people so it is easy to make the mistake. I think Christa has enough experience with the SBc to know the deep seated evil that lurks there when it comes to admitting our covering up of sexual perversion problem in ministry. but I would tell her that Muslims are equally as bad as those who protect or ignore sexual perverts in the SBC. Maybe even worse since killing innocent people is legal and the treatment of women who are raped. If she thinks the SBC is bad, try talking to an Imam and being a woman!
L's,
The two examples you have given are not Christian in any way. They are not true examples of Christianity.
But, in all the countries wherein Muslims are persecuting Christians, the Muslims are true Muslims.
They are not "fake" Muslims. They are the real thing.
They really do torture, rape, sodomize, hack apart, burn and kill.
And they are all "real" Muslims.
Westboro and FDLS are not Christian by any standard. They are "fakes" to the highest degree. But the Muslims in all the countries they dominate are persecuting Christians and those Muslims are the real thing. No fakes. They kill the fakes.
BTW, I have engaged the folks of Westboro. They did not appreciate me and I will leave it at that.
cb
Lydia and L's,
Before this thing goes another way; Let me say.
I have not covered up for any perverts in or out of the SBC and I have the scars to proves it.
All I can say is I wish I had been there for Christa Brown when she was young. I really do. It may have gone a little different.
cb
Folks--
I have enjoyed trying to get you to quit the cat and dog fight to deal with the issue.
Obviously, everyone is enjoying a good Baptist, etc. fist fight with no real result.
I have been through too many of these in the past. I have to cut trees for a living rather than sit in a church office and aggitate others.
I hope someone pays the freight for your escapades. I have to pay for my own and bad weather is coming so I must concentrate on taking big trees down without them destroying my customers or my men.
Actually, no matter how bad the tree, I have access to a crane, big ropes, and an 8,000# Bobcat. I can deal with rotted, diseased, or any tree needing removal---I just can't deal with this pointless falderall!!!!
Just let me know when you want to deal with the issues posted. Otherwise, how about finding something less petty to do!!!!
Gene, this is a small portion of what you've posted on this comment stream along with my thoughts following each:
"I think a few of the hate mongers in this blog might look in the mirror closely to see if their eyes are dancing as they shave!"
If you didn't bring up the "hate monger" talk, you surely kept it going.
"We are turning a resonable observation that started this blog into an argument about war and hate mongering... We are way off the track here!"
And then you lament that the stream is way off track discussing "hate mongering" when you are the one who turned it into that. That's just funny.
"We were horrified that our POW's in the Hanoi Hilton tortured people like John McCain. We protested in horror over the actions of the Nazis with respect to prisoners of war and civilians. YET, we have done the same kind of stuff since 9/11 proud of a President elected by strong influence of the Moral Majority."
You can't stand if someone who might lean politically conservative voices an opinion but you feel free to spew venom quite freely.
"Also remember, we went into this mess with a President claiming Weapons of Mass Destruction as the urgent motivator and Ossama ben Laden as the target---so how the heck did we end up going after Saddam Hussain????... Neither the weapons or Ossama have been yet found or captured--duh!!! In addition, there is no exit strategy. Do we really think we can take a bunch of Middle Eastern citizens and turn them into Democrats and Republicans??"
You continue with the anti-Bush political talk that no one else is even interacting with. And then you end the stream with this:
"I have enjoyed trying to get you to quit the cat and dog fight to deal with the issue... Just let me know when you want to deal with the issues posted. Otherwise, how about finding something less petty to do!!!!"
After all this I have one question: Are you two different people posting comments as one person?
Hello Gene,
I am 'furring my claws' (for now).
My Methodist brother is a physician who doesn't believe that all Muslim people are dangerous.
Nor does his daughter Linds who served as a Navy trauma nurse in Iraq and volunteered to treat Iraqi women and children.
Maybe it's the denomination that makes the difference in how Muslims are seen.
Or not? I'm not sure.
C.B. and Lydia and Joe (yes, Joe) are all good people. But I disagree with them and they with me. And that's okay.
But sometimes, I wish we could all see better into how what we do and say (and not do and say) will affect the future and the lives of others.
What is that verse: 'lean not unto thine own understanding'?
Would that we seek the wisdom of the Lord Christ to replace our own understanding.
And, in doing so, keep our claws furred and our hearts peaceful.
( Yes. even Joe) )
Pax Christi,
L's
Gene,
You sure know how to get people off the subject by becoming the subject.
Did you plan it that way? Or are you learning those that live by the sword die by it?
I’ve learned repeatedly to get folks attention just make a mistake.
Reminds me of last night deacon’s ordination. During the ‘praying time’ a man returned to his seat with his eyes partly closed and sat on the wrong pew.
He put his arm around a lady that thought he was her husband.
But there was enough peaking going on that boomed into laughter as soon as the preacher finally said amen.
Gottcha!!!!!!
One of the approaches in a good discussion is to play Devil's Advocate to, at least, get people's attention.
Thanks for paying attention, but that still doesn't get us on a reasonable and productive approach to a very serious and real subject:
"Are moderate Muslims the most dangerous kind of Muslims?"
If you will kindly check back, about 2/3 of what is said is more a personal political bickering over, what I think, is a very appropriate discussion.
It seems to me we have reignited a Holy War beneath the surface of 9/11. Under the leadership of Bush II we were told about Saddam Hussain and Weapons of Mass Destruction as we watched the blips of light floating up at our Stealth Bombers. A computer game come to life!
Only 1 problem: beneath our magic weapons innocent people die despite all the laser guidance we can attach. Also, some of America's finest young people are killed over a fake cause and were used as the hit men of "W".
I happen to live within 1-2 hr. drive of Cherry Point / Seymour Johnson / Camp LeJune / Fort Bragg. For some reason the flatlands of NC is a fortress. Another 1.5 hr. north is the headquarters of Blackwater--our poster child of waste and mercinary greed!!!
I know whereof I talk and HAVE talked with people involved personally. My son's best HS friend is a Crew Chief right now on the S-J Fighting Eagles deployed to Afghanistan. My son is at Traverse City, MI, with Coast Guard Helicopters. Even they are risking lives over cold waters where there is just a few feet of water between America and Canada--ideal crossing point!
What concerns me is far more than being a blog cop. What concerns me is the serious nature of the subject and the petty discussion going on around it!
I guess you could say I blew my whistle and it is obvious I got your attention. Now the ball is in your court:
If we want to be more serious, I will gladly participate with all the personal and real things I know from what I stated above. For me it is VERY personal. Our stations carry the going in and out of troops in massive quantities. I see con trails, sometimes 10 at the time flying east and together as I go to work early.
When they die over petty fighting, I want to yell, "STOP!!!" Yes we have a problem, but it is constantly being made worse rather than better. Do you know how much our war spending has crippled our economy? It has, most likely, been the prime mover in the crash!
My work is 30% of what it was 3 years ago. The Blackwater boys and other contractors are riding in new SUV's gas guzzling every week--they change these tax-paid autos at a whim and waste millions. Not one thing has been directed toward small businesses in this Depression--all to large outfits who reward their execs who ruined them with grand bonuses.
I strongly advise you get your heads out of the sand and start being more serious because this is the moral issue of the day and deserves some better thoughts!
Whistle down--let's see how you play the next minutes of this little game!
Thank the Lord for the boys at Blackwater.....and all their "forefathers" who were before them.
For the "forefathers" and the Blackwater boys of the present have been the hard men willing to go into harms way to defend your freedom in really bad places while you sleep. Mercs have fought and died for this nation since before it was one.
So let thenm drive their SUVs today, for tomorrow they may die in some place dogs and snakes refuse to crawl.
The problem with cowards who toss around words like "hate monger" and shill for the political left while praying for America's defeat by her enemies is that the same soldiers they wish to see defeated (ours-the good guys) are the same soldiers who are fighting in the same manner as those who fought to give those cowards the right to say they hope America is defeated by her enemies and they aren't thankful for that freedom or the lives of the brave soldiers who purchased that freedom.
I remember my cousin Jack who was nineteen. He probably would have nicely fit into the current far-right label of a 'liberal', in so many ways. He was a special person and he was a Christian for sure.
He went into the Army and was sent to Viet Nam.
He died there.
He never saw his twentieth birthday.
But his name is on 'The Wall', with so many others. So many.
His mom, my Aunt Donna, said that he wanted to study for the ministry after he got out of the Army. He would have made a good minister, I think. He was a good kid.
How do you 'label' people?
By who it is that they must hate in order to be 'acceptable' to the
'right people' as 'Christians'?
Or by Whom they love?
Jack didn't 'hate' any one.
His name is 'on the Wall' because he loved his country.
Gene,
It seems no one wanted to answer my question: which is more dangerous a wild Boa Constrictor in the jungle or a pet in your home. Hint: ask the fearless man found dead in his bedroom. (True story.)
Neither did anyone reply in my saying: It looks to me like we have a ‘David’ in the White House.
So what is your excuse?
On the plight of our nation, would you want to start at the bottom of the problem or the top?
The ‘top’ (before Obama) has made it possible for the ‘bottom’ to take place.
American can be divided into two groups – those that work and those that don’t.
THE LATEST ANT GRASSHOPER STORY
The ant works hard all summer, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter while the grasshopper laughs and plays the summer away.
Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands
to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.
TV Networks show pictures of the shivering grasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table of food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast. How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer?
An immediate retroactive tax hike is put on the ant to make him pay his fair share.
The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government and given to the grasshopper.
The story ends as we see the grasshopper and his free-loading friends finishing up the last of the ants food while the house crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.
The ant has disappeared in the snow. The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the house is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once prosperous neighborhood. The entire Nation collapses bringing the rest of the free world with it.
"But sometimes, I wish we could all see better into how what we do and say (and not do and say) will affect the future and the lives of others. "
It would have been wise if we had done this very thing with Hasan. 13 innocent people would be alive today.
It would have been wise if we had done this very thing with Hasan. 13 innocent people would be alive today.
But Lydia, that was just an isolated incident. And it's not like him being Muslim had anything to do with his rampage. You hate mongerin' ol fundy!!! :-)
Rex Ray, old buddy--
You are telling you story to a person who sat on the first Title XX Funds (Johnson Administration) for the 5 county Santee-Wateree District in SC (Sumpter/Darlington/Camden/etc.).
I asked a simple question: For every $1 collected in taxes, how much comes back after administrative costs in Welfare Funds? No answer.
Since we are such a blessed nation (my second comment), it would be wise to help those truely in need, BUT if we do anything which makes Welfare attractive, we have helped no one, in my opinion.
That was early 1970--it is now almost 40 years later: Is anything really better??
Now, do I sound like the "liberal" you think me to be?
I blew the whistle, but I still don't see much of addressing the real issues of "Moderate Muslims the Most Dangerous Muslims of All?"
Joe--
My God, you missed the golden opportunity to be Oliver North's sidekick and counselor--he could have used your bravado and gung ho "America is always right" attitude!
Since when has "God Bless America" = "We are always right?" I hate to tell you, but we have snuck and chucked-and-jived our way into assasinating John Kennedy / MLK / Robert Kennedy as a start. We supported the anti-democratic potentate regime in Viet Nam when Ho Che Minh advocated more of a democratic society although he made the mistake of calling it "communism." In reality, it called for an end to using poor working people and giving the common worker a chance!
We seem to always manage to root for the despot and assasinate the hero of the people.
Is it possible we have met the enemy and---IT IS US???
America right or wrong--give me a break. We are no more perfect than "W" who could think of nothing he did wrong in the first administration!!!
I just beg to differ and have the guts to admit when we mess up in the name of God. It was a rather prevalent theme of Prophetic criticism of the Chosen People in the OT. They believed Chosen People = We are always right!
The Prophets just begged to differ as do I.
Now, let's do a little better in this still somewhat petty discussion--and what was the original question???????????
I have better things to do than enter into petty partisan politics with no ability to be self-critical. America is far from perfect and Rome's first step toward destruction was hiring mercenaries. They lasted 400 years and we have been here 200+--of that only since WWII have we been really strong like Rome, so make our power history 70 years.
Unless we make some changes, we are all but broke and are still printing money by the wheelbarrow load with no gold to back it.
As the Kingfisher of "Amos 'n Andy" fame put it wisely: "If yo out go exceeds yo in come, yo up keep will be yo down fall!!!"
Think about it my conservative brothers!
I'm still trying to sort out the 'logic' behind borrowing money from China in order to give tax cuts to the rich.
Gene, old buddy,
I’ll have to hand it to you – you have a gift of gab, but having a conversation with you is like talking through a sound proof wall since you don’t answer questions or speak to any subject unless you bring it up.
Even though you’re “Gottcha!!!!!!” was a good comeback, I don’t believe it removed Darby Livingston nailing you to the wall by quoting your previous comments.
You see, you gripe about people not commenting on Wade’s topic, but what kind of example are you?
Your last comment of 501 words is about the usual of what you have done, but not one word on Wade’s topic. You didn’t give any facts, events, or even your opinion.
If you listen to reference link below I’d really like to know if you think the speeches are bragging or complaining about Muslins in America.
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY&feature=player_embedded
BTW, why would I think anyone that keeps the main topic about them would be a liberal?
PS – I like your ‘Amos ‘n Andy”.
Rex--
A little humor never hurts!! Glad you liked Economics 101 Kingfisher style. It sortta cuts through the PhD stuff--huh!
It seems, these days we have "experts" on everything. All anyone has to do to be an expert is to go 10 miles from home where no one knows how stupid you really are. These days with all the preachers being "DR. so-in-so" it lets me know how easy it really is to get a DMin degree.
When someone tells me they are "DR" I respond--heck, I'm not even a nurse, but I am smart enough not to let a 10-ton tree kill me! Most of our supposedly experts these days can't even change a spark plug on their stupid lawn mower!
I would love to discuss in a real fashion the topic beside this comment box. It is a good one, but--honestly--I think you would have to agree most of the commentary is more personal than discussing "Moderate Muslims."
Wade is a bonified Conservative, but one who sees through most of the pretense of Conservative Resurgence and has had the guts to say so clearly. He has spoken so clearly that they tried to stop him with a resolution!
Anyone who knows a true Baptist should know a Resolution is just words on paper not binding any free and faithful Baptist to anything! The only trouble is how few non-Baptists have a clue that the Convention President or Agency Head cannot speak for any other rascally Baptist. We listen only to our conscience and the Bible as well as the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
That is the reason for our incredible growth and serious competition to the other massive religions of the world: Roman Catholicism and Muslims. We are, in fact, the only true Ecumenical Movement under one umbrella known to any denomination. We are diverse.
I got into this blog because of its great popularity. What I see is a basic group of people who are either somewhat conservative or somewhat non-conformists expressing themselves to one another. Wade addresses many worthy issues without spouting the Conservative line. It is obvious he has a brain and the ability to cut through to the core of issues.
I have to agree that "Moderate" anything tends to have some quiet people involved who want to make a name for themselves. Suddenly, the nice seeming Muslim or Baptist takes up a gun and goes for the 40 Virgins (or whatever number) in the sky. Basically, it tells me Muslims are horny males who let their hormones take away their minds.
There are 2 sites on the Internet these days which cut through our government's line:
CostofWar.com
9/11 Stand Down
(cont.)
The first simply ticks the mind-boggling numbers of how much is being spent by the minute fighting the Iraq (now Afghanistan War) and who knows how many other clandestine activities trying to make the world into America.
Since when do we have to run the world when we can't seem to run ourselves???
9/11 Stand Down attempts to answer why 4 non-responding commercial aircraft were not intercepted and commanded to land by twice the speed of sound aircraft of the USAF. It is a protocol set of orders practiced many times and ready to go as soon as the scramble order is given.
The "wheels-down-back-up" action of a military aircraft with missles and guns bristling is known to clearly mean: "Either land or we will shoot you down." They flew over the most USAF bases in the country without being intercepted while flying about a hour with their locater turned off!
A good retired USAF high ranking pilot friend of mine told me of his intercept of a commercial aircraft years ago which entered the 100-mile perimeter of the US. He was in the air and told to find out what was up. Within a few minutes he put on his landing lights and raked them down the side of that plane in the dead of night!
A few weeks later he boarded that same commercial airline's craft and was told the fascinating story by the stewardess of how she and everyone got scared to death by the strange experience of being spotlighted in the dead of night. Everyone was screaming and diving for the floor. My friend just smiled and said, "That really is strange, I'm glad you told me."
This is why I know for a simple fact, we could have stopped it, but someone ordered the protocol not to be used. Just like the USCG where my son flies--if a flare goes off, they have to launch. Even though it is Christmas Eve or New Year's and they suspect some idiot is doing what is never to be done unless there is a boating emergency--THEY HAVE STANDING ORDERS TO LAUNCH!
I'm impressed you counted my words--that's serious reading. If you give me an on-topic comment, I will gladly try to respond.
However, when it is off the main topic, I will point it out. I did some debating in my day and know how to get the judge's attention and win--if there is such a thing among Baptists. We just love to fight a little too much without benefit.
I call it "intellectual excursion without moral pursuasion."
I hate to tell you, but we have snuck and chucked-and-jived our way into assasinating John Kennedy / MLK / Robert Kennedy as a start.
Oh, and of course you can prove that, right. Is that proof in the glass case at Emory that contains the complete transcript of every word that Christ said?
We supported the anti-democratic potentate regime in Viet Nam when Ho Che Minh advocated more of a democratic society although he made the mistake of calling it "communism."
So, communism is a democratic society? Democracy is a political government either carried out by the people (direct democracy), or the power to govern is granted to elected representatives (republicanism). Communism is a socioeconomic structure and political ideology that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society based on common ownership and control of the means of production and property in general. Those don't sound the same to me but of course I didn't get an Emory edu-ma-cation.
BTW, my eye surgeon that operated on my eye this past May went to Medical School at Emory. He did a great job.
Gene,
To do a word count on a comment takes about two minutes to copy-paste and click on ‘Tool’ and ask for word count.
Your last comment had 896 words which did not answer any questions, request, or give your opinion on Wade’s topic.
Again you proved you are a ‘sound-proof wall’ with the exception of being impressed by your word count.
BTW, this file of my comments to Wade has 332,910 words.
I did enjoy reading your off-topic subjects but I read a lot of things with a grain of salt.
Did you take a little time to listen to the link?
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=tCAffMSWSzY&feature=player_embedded
CNN.com reported today that Iran sentenced five to death and 18 others up to 15 years in prison for their parts in post-election protest.
Human rights groups and Iran’s opposition leaders have accused the government of forcing people to make confessions.
Looks like more of Islam being the 'Antichrist' as Strider brought out, but I still disagree with him saying all we should do is love them to bring them to Christ.
I base my opinion on Jesus saying ‘shake the dust off’ and Paul saying to curse anyone teaching a different way for salvation.
Gene, is that on the topic you keep howling about but never doing yourself?
Joe--
Glad you appreciate your Emory educated eye surgeon. I'll overlook the smart remarks about the glass case proof of the Kennedy Assasination!
Now, just try to be a little nicer!
Emory happened to have a magazine titled "Ramparts" which you would likely call "left wing." They also had "Look" / "Time" / "Life" / etc. In other words, we had access to whatever was out there. You would have likely enjoyed their stack of Playboy way back in the research section of what was called "the stack." Although, I know you are so righteous you would never admit to it!
Now, you have my payback for the Emory slander! Forgive me, please!
What "Ramparts" revealed in the months after the tragedy was the theory of a magic bullet which accounted for Oswald's number of shots with one of the most inaccurate rifles with a cheap scope on it.
The theory, you recall, is that a single bullet hit Kennedy, turned in mid air, struck Senator Conelly in back/wrist/thigh, stopped in his thigh, AND fell out on his gurney in pristine condition so it could be traced to the Oswald rifle.
I happen to hunt with a high powered rifle. Anyone ever actually using this weapon knows a bullet may deflect, but it won't zig-zag. My "glass case" is in my reasonable mind. Every examination since the assasination upholds a multiple weapon conspiracy except 1 I have seen.
Further, the Zapruder film, when slowed down to frame by frame motion clearly shows the fatal head shot to rip half his skull from front to back. It sent a piece to the trunk lid which his wife chased until thrown back in by a Secret Service Agent.
Another shot from the front tells me we had a well organized conspiracy at Executive Level getting rid of a man who planned to get us out of Viet Nam after making major strides with Civil Rights as well.
I didn't say Ho was not a Communist, nor do I believe that kind of government has much democracy attached to it. Read a little more closely. It was, however, clear we were supporting a Dictatorship hated by the people of Viet Nam.
Whether Communism, Dictatorship, or current SBC---we are supporting little "in and of" the people these days. If you noticed the first Bush win over Gore and the hoopla in Florida, I have my doubts the public elected him. What would have been the problem with a recall ballot with a simple paper to mark with an "X" large enough for the poor sighted elderly voters of Florida to read? Only those who voted the first time would be allowed to return for a second real and simple vote????
Further, a recent HBO documentary examining the electronic/computer voting machines found a file included which would allow anyone to enter the final tally file and alter the numbers to their heart's content. By law the initial paper part of the system is to be kept 7 years. Guess where the detectives found those ballots for comparison after a few months--in the trash can outside a warehouse in Texas, for one!!!
This begs the question: "Was major voter fraud involved in the election of George "W" Bush to his first term and the Iraq War failing to capture Ossama ben Laden?" Niether did we find and show the first "Weapon of Mass Destruction." All I think we have was a Bush-induced "Weapon of Mass Distraction."
Now, I hope I have been direct and clear so I won't be accused of veering from the discussion--ALTHOUGH it is about "Moderate Muslims."
Rex Ray--
I worked yesterday. It is raining today so I did take time to check out the U-Tube presentation on President Obama.
2 questions:
(1) Did you check out my 2 websites--Costofwar.com / 9/11standown?
(2) Do you think when Kennedy said, "Ich ben ein Berliner!" he was advocating Communism or bowing to Adolf Hitler?
When you give me your answers, I will give you mine--which are pretty interesting!
Rex Ray (2nd comment)--
The Bible says: "And Judas went out and hanged himself."
It also says: "Go thou and do likewise."
Finally, it says: "What thou doest, do quickly!"
I love your "proof texting!"
Now, is that on your topic?
Am I being clear enough and not howling?
I am a tree surgeon and have plenty of strong rope. Can I loan you a piece???
A little off topic, but an example of why what you see isn't always what you get:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ZjOEk4-dI
Well---silly me.
What's wrong, Joe, am I getting to you???
That was a really nasty comment you deleted, but it still came to me via email before you showed how high you have climbed the tree!!
Be nice and I will be nice. Otherwise, I sometimes take Jesus' whip to the moneychangers at the Temple.
Gene, my only regret is that I don't have the opportunity to say what I said to your face.
Tough luck, Joe---you are not a very nice person.
Just remember, I have a chipping machine and angry people sometimes slip into its grasp. It ain't pretty!
Gene,
Haven’t checked this post in a while.
I believe someone should say something that’s already been said:
“Gentlemen, we seem to be getting a little feisty.”
Enjoyed your http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-ZjOEk4-dI , saw the Costofwar.com ,but I couldn’t find your Costofwar.com / 9/11standown.
I guess that’s where Kennedy said, “Ich ben ein Berliner!”, so I can’t give you the answer to your last question.
Rex Ray--
I have already made notes for my honest and clear answer to your question.
9/11standown is your google input.
Like I said, give me your reaction to both and I will gladly answer you.
Since you got the Cost of War ticker, does it give you any clue why our economy is flat busted broke???
Remember: this was started by George W. Bush and makes the bailout money pale by comparison!
Gene,
Communication is great but the lack of it causes confusion and frustration. For example, yesterday a relative, a few yards away, told me he was going to donate professional basketball backboards to our church. He has known for three months we planned to make our own. The structure that will hold the backboard to the wall is 32”x 54” x 16 feet. I welded it together, painted it, and hung it from the roof (27 feet high) by myself.
Now his news is good, but an extra trip to get more metal, drill 80 holes, and weld metal to attach the plywood to the structure has been wasted because of no communication.
All that to say:
You wrote:
There are 2 sites on the Internet these days which cut through our government's line:
CostofWar.com
9/11 Stand Down
Then you wrote:
2 questions:
(1) Did you check out my 2 websites--Costofwar.com / 9/11standown?
(2) Do you think when Kennedy said, "Ich ben ein Berliner!" he was advocating Communism or bowing to Adolf Hitler?
When you give me your answers, I will give you mine--which are pretty interesting!
Then I replied: “saw the Costofwar.com, but I couldn’t find your Costofwar.com / 9/11standown.”
Which would answer your first question (Did you check out my 2 websites…?) with a YES.
But how can I have an opinion of what Kennedy said? - when all I get is:
Sorry, we couldn't find http://costofwar.com+/+9/11standown
Sorry, we couldn't find http://0.0.0.9/11+Stand+Down
Now you have asked a third question: “Like I said, give me your reaction to both and I will gladly answer you”. (You didn’t ask me my reaction to Costofwar.com, but only if I’d read it.)
My reaction is ‘I’m amazed and I don’t like it’.
There are two reasons why I’m being picky.
1. Your comment about me quoting Jesus and Paul and insinuating I had taken them out of context with no explanation except your “Judas – hanging – doing likewise”.
2. I’m cranky because over a month, 3 trips to dentists, and 2 trips to Drs; yesterday a Dr. said if the first dentist had filled the hole in my lower tooth it would have relieved the pain in my upper jaw since it was ‘referred pain’. That’s why some of my comments have been late at night because I can’t sleep when pain pills stop working.
Also I’ve learned in life to pay attention to detail which may have been the reason I was selected for a ‘hot job’ (space shuttle nose cone) in tool design at LTV.
While I’m bragging, I’ll join you and Joe by saying I built 99% of the slide in my picture a year ago by myself, and 12 years ago at age 65, I swam 4 miles across the Sea of Galilee with nothing but a pacemaker. :)
Rex--
I love adventurous older people who think as sharply as you do. How I wish we could sit together somewhere and share more of our journey in the faith.
I am confident we both have such which includes a "peace that passes understanding" and the "joy of salvation." I can almost see the smile on your face as we do our interpretative gymnastics.
We will probably agree to disagree and that still makes us the best of Baptists! I trust we are stimulating deeper and clearer thoughts by this exercise. You are certainly a good stimulus for my 63 year old brain! Particularly, I admire a man who can swim with a pacemaker keeping that heart ticking regularly.
The Kennedy famous phrase has nothing to do with the 2 websites. It has to do with those who are contending President Obama is a Muslim / anti-America / non-believer. I see in him a genuine person speaking clearly and with an understanding that to meet with foreign world leaders one must get into their shoes and show respect for their religious and cultural history. We need more diplomacy of this type in my opinion!
The website about what happened on 9/11 during the "transponder turned off" phase of the airliners gives me the question: "Did we show negligence and a total lack of citizen protection prior to the horrible destruction at the Twin Towers and Pentagon. It likely came short of a crash into the White House due only to the sacrificial bravery of passengers on board the 4th aircraft.
I will post below the exact 9/11 site.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911stand.html
We are almost to the point I will gladly answer your questions!
Gene,
You keep changing questions on me. The last one is “Did we show negligence and a total lack of citizen protection prior to the horrible destruction at the Twin Towers and Pentagon?”
I thought I was looking for Kennedy’s "Ich ben ein Berliner!"
Your exact 9/11 site took me to here:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/911stand
Which has about 20 plus topics.
If you want someone to read what you are reading on internet, click left button of the mouse on the ‘heading’ of the internet, hit the right button on the mouse, and click on ‘copy’.
Then where ever you are writing, do the ‘paste thing’ and this will give a ‘link’ directly to where you were reading on the internet. For instance, use this for an example:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/9-11BasicQuestions.html
BTW, when I was 47, I finished a marathon with no practice other than running a computer and couldn’t walk for 3 days. At 59, I won my division in the Dallas Triathlon.
Rex--
Sorry if you are confused. I did what you instructed which gave you the google total search. The first article is 9/11 Stand Down.
It is well documented by major reliable sources and it's not pretty. The questio they are addressing is: "How did 4 commercial aircraft fly over the most Air Forced area of the country without any attempt to intercept them?
They have a protocol for such events which can only be stopped by orders at the highest command levels not to practice the protocol. It all seems fishy to me.
Congrats on the marathon win. It proves you are a person capable ofll focusing his mind even when the body is not trained.
I continue to respect you. I am especially waremed with you comment that Inerrancy came from the devil's lips.
It is my observation that we were poised to share the Gospel with people literally to the ends of the earth with Bold Mission Thrust via Baptist Telnet. The actions of the Conservative Resurgence totally changed our focus to the foolish debate over inerrancy.
Now, 30 years later the Conservatives are admitting to error in textual transmission. It was a cover for the power politics taking place in back rooms with great malace and no interest in telling the truth to the average church member.
We have been had by the fundies and their stream of money and growth has run out.
What a shame!
Gene,
Correction: No win on the marathon; that was the triathlon with practice. I tell people my place in the marathon was fourth but will not reveal what end I’m talking about.
I agree, ‘the battle for the Bible’ was nothing but a smoke screen for a political takeover, and their code word was Inerrancy.
At a SBC, a man yelled at me, “We have our Inerrancy and no one will take it away from us!”
Tonight, we watched a rerun on TV of Kennedy being shot. I was in Fort Worth working as an auto mechanic. When a buddy told me, “Kennedy’s been shot!”; I finally asked him to finish the ‘punch line’; as jokes were dime a dozen.
I believe when the man with the umbrella raise it, that was the signal for the shooters to get ready. The shot from the grassy noel was the fatal one.
It’s strange, under Johnson, how a small company in Texas became world-wide so quickly.
Rex--
I first had my doubts about the "single assasin" theory when they claimed a bullet zig-zagged and got both Kennedy and Connely--impossible.
Then when they slowed down the Zapruder film as the fatal bullet struck Kennedy in the head, you could see it peeling away from front to back with Jackie chasing a piece of his skull to the trunk lid on their lemosine.
Explain all one wants, but the clear peeling of skull from front to back tells the story of another bullet from the front.
The whole thing was horrible. The cover up proves you can convince the American public to trust the government story now matter how flemsy the evidence.
This is why I think everyone should ask the questions of 9/11 Stand Down. The government's Bush Administrations story of why they weren't intercepted, just does NOT MAKE SENSE!
We believed them on Viet Nam--it was a disaster!
We are now believing them on Iraq and Afghanistan--it IS NOW a disaster.
Were it not for the billions spent overseas, we might just have enough tax dollars to have cleaned up after Katrina / enforced Securities laws to prevent the meltdown / and do more sensible things to come out of this economic mess.
Instead, the money had gone to large corporations which have squandered it. To financial institutions who still refuse to make low cost loans to consumers. To small businesses which will really do the rehiring and buying of new equipment giving a spiral effect out of this mess.
The simple things--we miss!!
The stupid things--we do!!!
The value of the dollar--will decline sharply causing inflation and higher oil prices.
Remember: A camel is a horse designed by a government committee!!
The lying and cover up look strangely similar to Conservative Resurgence!
Just remember, I was at Houston in 1979 and saw it for myself--violating every rule of registration as buses pulled up to the door. For them, the end justified the means.
The saddest part was our possible entry into Bold Mission Thrust using Baptist TelNet to broadcast from earth orbit the story of our Saviour to anyone on earth with a dish receiver and TV.
We could have done it. We missed the golden opportunity. Now some 30 years later the CR folks are admitting we are in trouble with not enough money to send missionaries--much less to fund the now defunct Baptist TelNet. Pat Robertson bought it for a cheap price!
Gene,
PREACH ON BROTHER!
In 2004, Prestonwood Baptist Church was undecided whether to join the new convention of Texas (SBTC) or stay with the old (BGCT). Paige Patterson, President of the SBC, was invited to preach.
After the sermon, I stood in line to congratulate? him. I said I had a son in Israel as a missionary and showed him Criswell’s Study Bible that he had written the forward:
“Harmonization of apparent discrepancies and explanations of passages thought by some to contain error are afforded the reader.”
I asked if he meant all the errors or only some of them.
He whispered “We got all we could”, but to the crowd, he yelled, “We got all of them!”
Would you think his sermon persuaded Prestonwood to switch to the SBTC or that their pastor became the president of the SBC that year?
That was the year records proved Patterson falsely accused a German professor of saying what he didn’t say. Chapman, chairman of the committee to ‘investigate’ the BWA, pointed the finger and said Patterson wrote the report.
At the SBC, Patterson was the last to speak before the vote to withdraw from the BWA. I heard him bring new charges that the BWA was gay friendly.
That morning, I had passed out hundreds of ‘Soldiers Down’ written by my sister and me:
Soldiers Down
By Ann Rinker and Rex Ray 2-2-04
PLEASE, SBC LEADERS, DON’T REJECT BWA
We’ve loved 99 years. Will you now abscond?
47,000,000 Baptist hearts that lift up Jesus.
Will they become wounded soldiers down?
Persecution from enemies, yes,
But from our own astounds!
You said BWA had drifted left.
Innocent soldiers down.
You accused them of downplaying Jesus;
No evidence could be found.
Your untruth against BWA exposed you.
Should you yourselves be down?
You screamed, “Liberal”, but one falsely accused
Yelled in your ear, so bound,
“Repent and turn from your wicked ways!”
One soldier still not down.
Christ warned, “Teaching as doctrines the commands of men.”
Does His concern, so profound,
Expose “BF&M is our doctrinal guideline”,
Demanding unsigned soldiers down?
You claim your interpretation is God.
Your BF&M is renown.
Others must bow to this decree or become
Condemned soldiers down.
Your name “conservatives” is only a camouflage.
Your creed a mandatory crown!
Anyone questioning fundamentalists is labeled
Despised Moderate soldiers down.
Please, Lord, unite our hearts to lift up Jesus.
This prayer should resound.
“Fire unsigned missionaries!” makes Jesus cry,
Betrayed soldiers down.
You’re only content when you dominate.
You say you don’t want to hound.
But when God speaks to some a different way,
More loyal soldiers down.
You agree with Muslims: “No women over men!”
Though their witness has abound.
Christian women who answered God’s call
Became women soldiers down.
Sorry, BWA, our leaders plan to leave.
You see why moderates frown.
Pray for leaders without a paper-god
Or you’ll join soldiers down.
“It’s only politics…Not my concern.”
This fable has been around.
Awake, dear brother, or you’ll become
Another soldier down.
To be honest--Paige Patterson is the best 25-cent word liar I have yet known.
It is hard to believe the same people who figured out Jim Baaker have not yet seen through the "smoke and mirrors" master!!!
Rex Ray--
You have not yet given me an answer on 9/11 Stand Down, but I am ready to give mine over the U-Tube presentation on President Obama. It was an edited "word-bite" of thing he said while addressing a Muslim audience. In it he said:
"MY father was a Muslim..."
"I listened to the call to prayer in Indonesia..."
"The Holy Koran says..."
"Moslem light on learning / algebra / medicine / beautiful buildings / they have excelled in America..."
"I fight abainst stereotypes of Muslims..."
Taken without a recognition that the statements are just small "sound bites" might lead one to thing he is secretly Muslim--NOT TRUE!
The most interesting thing was that 2 sources were used: CNN / Fox News. CNN attempts to present all sides of an issue over the Fox slant a la Rupert Murdock! Murdock when he extablished Fox News stated clearly that a conservative newscast was his goal!
Understanding the difference is critical to understanding what the U-Tube presentation was doing! I have no problem listening to either broadcast and do so for a broader perspective. A wise person would also listen to the BBC reports often available on Public Radio. With respect to the Middle East, they give a less biased report and either Network News / CNN / Fox! Sometimes their report is 180 degrees away from US bias and distortion!
The most interesting and revealing thing about the U-Tube presentation is how the CNN stuff is highly editied to lead one to the "Muslim President" viewpoint, while the Fox stuff ran for its entirety.
Does this give you a clue as to the "proof texting" nature of the U-Tube piece???
For me, the CNN stuff was simply an attempt by a person using wise diplomacy to walk in the shoes of the listeners and let them know he understands their culture and perspective. As far as I am concerned, President Obama is so far superior to George Bush (Texas 6-shooter cowboy) in diplomacy as to make him a political hero for me.
Remember, he was elected on a promise to solve the Middle East war and preserve the lives of Soldiers in that miserable battlefield. As I meet the brave men and women at Fort Bragg training to go there, I see naive faces of people who may die or be maimed the rest of their lives. They have a quality not found in the draftees of my Viet Nam era of carrying the card in my billfold!
Today's soldier is clean cut and intelligent as opposed to the slum-bred cannon fodder of Viet Nam. My brother was a 2nd Lieutenant who feared his own men more than the enemy. They would frag an officer if he pushed them much!
Anyone looking at any video which is highly edited should ask, "What is this editor trying to distort?"
That is my clearly stated view!
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