Yesterday our church hosted Mossaab Hassan Yousef. He spoke at all three of our Sunday morning services and for an hour at our evening service. You may log in (or register) and watch the archived television broadcast here.Mossab Hassan Yousef is the son of the only surviving founding council member of Hamas, the largest terrorist organization in the world. When Mossab Hassan turned eighteen, he was arrested and tortured by the Israelis. It was during his two years in prison that followed, that Mossab Hassan began to question his involvement as a leader in the Hamas Youth Movement and the expectations of others that he would eventually take over leadership of Hamas. What really jolted him was seeing Hamas torturing their own Hamas brethren while in prison. Everyone seemed so filled with hate for one another. After his release from prison he would eventually spend months studying the Bible after being introduced by a simple taxi cab driver in Jerusalem to the words of Jesus "Love your enemies."
Mossab Hassan Yousef eventually trusted Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. Three years ago, this "son of Hamas" was able to enter the United States and is currently applying for political asylum. I first heard his story in a Fox Television investigative report which aired last January and blogged about it then. We arranged for Mossab Hassan to speak at Emmanuel yesterday and we all profited by what he had to say.
One of the more startling things about this refreshingly honest and humble evangelical follower of Jesus Christ is his denunciation of Islamic idealogy. He loves Muslims, but he despises Islamic teaching. He says anyone who can read the Koran, and chooses to believe it, is sick and needs help. The Koran teaches the ideaology of hate and violence. Any logical, rational person who simply compares the teachings of the Koran and the teaching of Jesus Christ would see the radical ideological differences. But therein lies the problem.
Mossab Hassan points out that there are 1.5 billion Muslims. Only 300 million of them speak Arabic, but it is street Arabic and not the "high" Arabic of the Koran. Muslims don't even know what the Koran teaches, so they have to read hundreds of books or listen to dozens of Islamic teachers who will tell them, often incorrectly, what the Koran teaches. Mossab Hassan wants the Koran translated into the common languages of mankind so that people can read it and understand it. He says Muslims are deceived. They are trapped in an ideology of hate, and the only way to provide them solutions for their problems is to show them another way to live--and that is through the ideology of "love"--which provides a solution for every problem, even those caused by your enemies.
It is Mossab Hassans desire to one day return to his homeland to help lead his family and people to faith in Jesus Christ. His father remains in prison in Israel, and his own brothers are arguing with him about the Bible and who Jesus is. But at least, says Mossab Hassan, they are discussing the issues. Jesus Christ is Almighty God, and His teachings are far superior to any of mans' religions. Mossab Hassan is a "Jesus follower" and he firmly believes the only way for the problems in the Middle East to be solved is for others, by the millions, to become Jesus followers. It was refreshing to hear the story of conversion from a man who has given up so much, in terms of the world, to follow after Jesus.
I also couldn't help but think about how hard it seems to be for Christians in the west to "love our enemies." We have a hard time loving our Christian brothers. Could it be that many of us in the west treat Christianity as Muslims treat Islam? Could it be that we are more interested in maintaining our "religious" institutions than we are in our strengthening our relationship with the One who transforms our hearts into being able to "love our enemies"?
In His Grace,
Wade
94 comments:
I was pleasantly surprised to hear mature thinking from a young man. Yousef is attempting to focus on the basics or the core issues. I listened to both the morning and evening service. He was easy to listen to. On the whole a very engaging person.
I initially thought he was a naive and young person. And this thinking changed as I listened to him speak in the evening service.
At the heart of what Yousef is saying, I agree with him and his thinking.
Wade: Your last comment expresses something along the lines I was thinking as I was listening in both services. Hamas was torturing Hamas, thinking they were giving Israel information.
Christians fight with Christians over theology.
Hamas was torturing Hamas, thinking they were giving Israel information.
Debbie, minor quibble here. My understanding from watching the services, is that in the Israeli prisons of the Hamas members, the Hamas members were torturing their own (some of them) members to ferret out any Israeli informants. I might be wrong in my understanding, but that is what I grasped from the services.
My mental picture of these prisons, is more like a war prison, than a regular prison where each prisoner is isolated from other prisoners.
I might add, what stuck with me is the verse "Love your enemies" was the one passage that changed Mossab Yousef's life.
Thy Peace, isn't that the same thing that I said?
Debbie, you are correct. I mistook what you wrote.
"He says anyone who can read the Koran, and chooses to believe it, is sick and needs help. The Koran teaches the ideaology of hate and violence. Any logical, rational person who simply compares the teachings of the Koran and the teaching of Jesus Christ would see the radical ideological differences."
And what does Yousef do with the knowledge that millions and millions of American Muslims are indeed both logical and rational persons who practice their faith freely and peacefully? American Muslims can not be accused of promoting hate and violence at least no more so than evangelical Christians can be accused of promoting hate and violence.
Evangelicals regularly reject arguments that their own faith rooted in much supernaturalism is irrational. Evangelicals do this for good reason. Modern sociologists agree: Christian belief is not irrational. Nor is the belief of Muslims irrational. Works both ways...
Characterizing over one billion individuals as sick, illogical and irrational seems like an odd way to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
"It is Mossab Hassans desire to one day return to his homeland to help lead his family and people to faith in Jesus Christ."
Mossab could very easily become one whose blood is the seed of the Church; however, proclaiming God's desire to save sinners is well worth the risk. May we all be willing to take risks for His sake. The Western definition of persecution would probably make our Middle East brethrens chuckle.
John Daly,
You said..."The Western definition of persecution would probably make our Middle East brethrens chuckle."
I could not agree more. I'm not so sure but what that MIGHT change if Jesus tarries His coming. We may one day really have the personal knowledge of the true definition of persecution.
Paul,
I don't know if you've heard of this missions organization but suffering for Christ is not a foreign idea to them.
http://toeverytribe.com/pages/page.asp?page_id=71147#
Characterizing over one billion individuals as sick, illogical and irrational seems like an odd way to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
From my understanding, Yousef compared the writings of the New Testament Vs Koran. And from the writings of Koran, where it is being advocated to kill all infidels who do not believe in Allah, Vs The New Testament Gospel where Our Lord commands us to love our enemies and do good to those who hate and persecute us.
That is the difference.
Mind you, that there was similar killing ordered by Yahweh for the Jews when they were taking the promised land in Israel. And the Jews stumbled and did not do it fully, either by trickery or unwillingness to do it.
Wade, If you mean we always have to accept their errors as equal to the truth, we must never confront them and stuff like---that's not love. I can love someone and tell them that they are wrong and their beliefs are wrong. Many SBC don't get it. They think we have to accept them no matter what they believe, and if we point out their errors---we are called unloving.
Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff....when are you going to learn?
There is no such thing as absolute truth. People can believe anything they want and they're Christians. There is no need to confront anyone with the problem of their beliefs being in error or contradicting the Bible because there is no such thing as error. Whatever someone believes is good enough for God--He grades on a curve and it's a wide curve.
Besides, just like Wm Paul teaches we're all going to heaven anyway. You need to let go of your narrowminded fundementalism and accept the fact that everything is true--unless you're going to teach that women can't pastor a church. Now that is unacceptable and will damn you to the hottest part of hell. Everything else is a go, however.
Jeff and Joe: Watch the video from Sunday morning and Sunday night if you want a dose of truth.
Joe: And just where is the line that separates the goats from the lambs? Do I have to accept the whole Landmarkist program to be Southern Baptist?
kehrsam,
I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to answer that question, not being a Landmarker myself and only having a "skim the surface" level familiarity with Landmarkism.
Debbie,
Considering what passes in your book for "truth" I'll take your suggestion under advisement, thank you very much.
Joe and Jeff,
I am just glad this guy realized he was a sinner before a just and righteous God, repented and believed the gospel.
And if he is going back to his home with the story of the Kingdom on his lips, we need to pray for him. It is like John Daly said:
"Mossab could very easily become one whose blood is the seed of the Church; ...."
I can see no need to do anything other than pray for this man on this particular day and for God's blessings on his efforts to share the gospel with those he knows to be lost.
cb
cb
My comments were not intended to be directed at Mr. Yousef. In fact, it is AWESOME that God drew him to repentance and faith. I hope one day to have half the courage that man has in sharing the gospel with Muslim people.
My comment was merely responding to Jeff.
Joe,
I understand. And I do admire your grit. I just know that you and Jeff will draw fire from various people, who have no real understanding of the gospel whatsoever, which will take the significance of this particular post by Wade and make it something less than what it should be.
BTW, I am not talking about Debbie. Debbie knows the gospel.
cb
just know that you and Jeff will draw fire from various people, who have no real understanding of the gospel whatsoever, which will take the significance of this particular post by Wade and make it
Actually, you're right. I'm actually trying to disengage myself from this blog like I have Debbie's. It's like Jerry Springer--Dont' want to stare but you can't look away.
And this is eternal life - knowing God.
I don't know about you but I can't be in relationship with theological concepts, but I can get to know someone. My wife's name is Tara. I don't have a tara-ological understanding of Tara. But I know her well.
I know the above is not a new or profound statement, but so many people talk about the Truth as if Truth were 2+2=4, even though He revealed Himself in the form of a person, Jesus Christ, not a syllogism, and tells us that His ways are higher than our own.
Truth tells one to be circumcised and another not to. Truth has Rahab mislead. Truth forgives the sinner and eats with the unlovable. Truth lets the prodigal son be prodigal and then runs to him, preparing a big party for him.
Bryan,
You've hit on something that has always fascinated me. It's amazing to me how some Christians, even ministers, of many years can grow bitter, mean, caustic and all this seemingly happening as they learn more doctrine or as they say "the truth." [Theology]
On the other hand some young believers [few years in the Lord whatever their biological age] and who don't know that much theology at all can demonstrate so much grace and mercy and love for others and enthusiasim for the Lord they've only recently come to know. While it seems the older Christians have lost such.
I've come to think it is the truth of that verse..."you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free."
Those older Christians, unfortunately, perhaps begin to think that verse means knowing doctrine or even the bible. Not at all.
It is really speaking of having a very intimate relationship with the One who is Himself the Truth and being set free by that intimate relationship to be all God has redeemed them to be to others which is love, mercy, and grace and, of course, is what the Lord they now know is being to them in that intimacy.
Mossab Hassan Yousef may be a picture of the young Christian while...well... I'll look at my own heart here and let my words stand.
Just a thought.
Dad
Spot on. Mossab Hassan is not without his own personal struggles, but one thing he knows without any doubt is that His God is Jesus who died and rose again for him and teaches him to love his ememies.
That love, even for those who tortured him, is the distinguishing mark of real Christianity and can only be found in those who have a relationship with Christ.
Alexisa,
Mossab Hassan loves his family, his Hamas brothers and all Muslims. He believes his brethren are deceived. The Koran is not A holy book, it is full of pleas for people to cut the throats and kill those who refuse to convert. It is Allah, the god of Islam that is the problem. Mohammed has lied to the people and Satan is behind the religion of hate. Mind you, this is an insider saying these things.
He says he loves Muslims enough to tell them the truth.
Joe and Jeff,
Mossab Hassan would not agree with both of you on many things, including your views on inerrancy, the Lords Supper, church government, etc ... So I'm glad to know you respect him. I am simply suggesting similar respect for those who disagree with you within the SBC.
Wade
Wade:
In many ways this was a remarkable and commendable event you had yesterday.
At same time I hope you will temper some of your thinking and the ways it could be interpretted with an immediate reading and conversation with Oklahoma native Charles Kimball's When Religion Becomes Evil.
Kimball is now at Wake Forest and you can contact him there. It is quite possible he has heard of your service yesterday at Baps Today has linked the Enid paper's story.
I fear you run the risk of passing for an anti_muslin apologist like Jerry Falwell and Paige Patterson's Caner brothers if you don't engage conversation with the likes of Kimball.
I don't speak for him but I imagine our friend Bruce Prescott feels much the same as I on this matter.
Even so proud of you for bringing Yousef into the converation.
Actually, If you want information on true Islam, I would listen to Jay Smith, a Christian prof in England, who knows the Koran and debates Muslims in Hyde Park.
'pfanderfilms' is on youtube and you can learn a lot from him. He has a ton of clips teaching what the Koran says and comparing it to scripture.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niIMuVW0_Rs
Actually Lydia, Byron Pitts of CBS News has better way for you to approach this as you seek out Kimball's book in the meantime.
http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=14962
Do search out this CBS Story at Ed.com site with which Wade B is familiar from his Covenant meeting this August there in OK.
Sorry bama, I think Islam is evil and if the second half of the Koran is taken as truth then one has to believe it is just and pleasing to Allah to kill infidels.
I do not believe there is any such people as moderate Muslims. There are cultural Muslims and Religious Muslims but I am not sure of the difference when it comes to deeds of religion or revolution.
I have been around Muslims most of my life and can tell you they are a paradox. And I loved them. I also witnessed the quick change when called to Revolution or Jihad. I saw it back in the late 70's as a very young girl.
They believe in a generous hospitality at the same time they would be more than willing to kill you if need be. It is something very hard for us to understand.
Lydia,
You're just being narrow minded. We need to remember that the Muslim faith is just as valid a faith as any. As Wm Paul teaches in his book, Jesus is the "best way" to heaven. I take that to mean we shouldn't be exclusive and we certainly must treat their faith as equal to our own. After all, that's the only way to live--the way Jesus would.
Lydia and I have never been able to communicate very well. And I will not try to here. But I will say that her comment to Stephen Fox demonstrates she has been around Muslims in real world experience.
Her time frame of experience with them is as was mine in day-to-day experience. My opinion is as hers, word for word. I really do relate to this part of her comment and am fascinated that she said it. It is also what makes me know she was around Muslims back in the 70s. She said:
"They believe in a generous hospitality at the same time they would be more than willing to kill you if need be. It is something very hard for us to understand."
That statement is just far too true. (although I do kinda understand why they were willing to kill. I don't find it hard to understand) Or, at least that was my experience.
Sorry Lydia if my agreeing with you brings grief.
cb
Alexis wrote:
Characterizing over one billion individuals as sick, illogical and irrational seems like an odd way to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Yet the Bible characterizes sin as exactly the condition of being sick, illogical, and irrational. That's part of why the Gospel is so hard to swallow for unbelievers. For some reason, God doesn't play footsie with sin. Neither should we.
That isn't to say that I hate Muslims, either. I recognize that my need for salvation was precisely from the same source: original sin. Paul said that it was as if we were all in Adam's loins and when he sinned, we all sinned with him. Most logical, rational people don't like that passage because then the worst parts of Romans 1 & 2 don't apply to SOME sinners, but to ALL sinners. But that is the essence of Paul's thesis in Romans. The "evidence" of sin is presented first and then the "hypothesis" is presented in explanation of the evidence.
Realizing that each and every one of us suffers to some extent or another from the depravity of sin is actually both cathartic and inspirational for those that hear the message. Our ministry of the Gospel is from the perspective of acute equality: each and every one of us either admits to our own sin or the Gospel produces no meaningful, effective result in us. And if we admit to the sin, the sickness, the irrationality, and the loss of logic, we're not exactly painting them with a different brush--all 1.5 billion of them--than we paint ourselves.
The problem of sin is that no righteousness that we create on our own can cure it, Alexis. None. The Bible says there is none righteous, no not one. That is why God made a plan to provide righteousness TO us from his own, immense reserve. The problem with Islam is that it, like all other religious, emphasizes what man can do to make himself righteous.
Are Christians offensive for emphasizing the universality of sin and it's corrupting influence on the mind? Only if what we teach is false. If it is true, then it is not an offense to teach it. We ought to do that in love and with great humility. And there is much room to empathize with other sinners because we, too, were saved from our sins. We're not perfect in our spiritual health, perfect in our reason, nor perfect in our logic, either, too much of the time.
But their blood is on our hands if we do not accurately and completely proclaim the Gospel as it has been handed down to us. And that is a far more grievous thing than if we offend them by pointing out the ineffectiveness of their current faith to save them.
Greg Harvey
But their blood is on our hands if we do not accurately and completely proclaim the Gospel as it has been handed down to us. And that is a far more grievous thing than if we offend them by pointing out the ineffectiveness of their current faith to save them.
Ok, I can't believe I'm going to say that--I agree with greg w.h.
Ok, where's the Listerine? I need to wash my mouth out. We're out of listerine. Ok, where's the gas can for the lawn mowwer?
Bama: You really should listen to the two services. According to Mossab, there is no middle ground here. You have to prove both the Quran and Alla as false. Muslims will not listen to you until this is done.
Joe: You keep saying to preach the truth, but then you continually bypass the truth in your comments. It's why I asked you not to return to my blog.
I finally found the post on Debbie's blog:
Ministry of Reconciliation [Debbie Kaufman] > We Have Nothing To Fear But Fear Itself.
"Bama: You really should listen to the two services. According to Mossab, there is no middle ground here. You have to prove both the Quran and Alla as false. Muslims will not listen to you until this is done."
This is exactly what Jay Smith does. He quotes the Koran to them and proves it to be a lie.
At first I thought his approach was unloving until I watched him for a while and realized what he was doing and why.
CB, No grief here. You would probably be astonished at what we agree on as long as we stay with the essentials and don't try to elevate humans with titles too much.:o)
A Baptist Standard staff writer, Robert Barron, wrote a long article. In part, he said:
“When Mossab Hassan Yousef publicly proclaimed he was a Christian, he caused a shockwave throughout the Palestinian world…
On Sunday, Yousef told his story at Emmanuel Baptist Church through a dialogue with the Rev. Wade Burleson.”
Lydia,
You said, “They believe in a generous hospitality at the same time they would be more than willing to kill you if need be. It is something very hard for us to understand.”
They also kill each other. Where my son was a missionary, a girl had married a Muslim outside her tribe and after 18 years she returned home to visit her mother.
Her brother killed her to restore ‘honor’ to the family.
Also a girl of 15 was seen talking after school in town to a Muslim boy in her class that was not of her tribe.
Her father locked her in a small shed and burned it.
Yes, “It is something very hard for us to understand.”
John Daly,
You said, “Mossab could very easily become one whose blood is the seed of the Church; ....”
I believe your words sound courageous but not likely. If you believe Muslims hate ‘infidels’, they hate Muslims that become Christians a hundred times worse.
I heard a Muslim give his testimony at Tokyo Baptist Church saying his eight years of savings had been seized and he would face a firing squad the day he returned home.
CB,
Longtime – good to hear you.
Wade, Why are you judging me? How can you determine who I respect? You can't....your response has proven that you do not follow your own blog sermons.
I know posting this is controversial but I hope it will stimulate us to think things through as we listen to guys like Yousef and what they are telling us. The sort of thing referred to in the article below scares me. Is there anything more deceptive than a false peace or fake civility?
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090705/rick-warren-to-muslims-talk-is-cheap-let-s-work-together/index.html#
Lydia,
More deceptive? I dont' know. But more dangerous? Aboslutely. There is war for the sake of war. And there is false peace that is only maintained by violence. False peace for the sake of civility is far from the worst thing in the world. At least there, nobody is actually killing each other.
Even if peace is just for the sake of civility, you never know what crack God will slip in and use to change hearts.
I tire so quickly of hearing "we cannot have peace. They will not give us peace. So we must war." If there is to be a war, let it not begin with us. And let us never raise our hands to harm. Let our message always be the Prince of Peace. And if they will bring war upon us, then let us commend ourselves to our Prince's hands.
I have no problem with evangelism. I have had evangelistic conversations with a few Muslims myself. I do have a problem with those who would have us view Muslims as our enemies.
Debbie,
Never saw that request. I'm proud of myself. It's been a solid two weeks or more.
NewsOK > Son of Islamic radical shares his Christian conversion story at Emmanuel Baptist Church.
EnidNews > Hamas leader’s son speaks at Emmanuel Baptist Sunday.
Didn't see it til this morning--
wtjeff, you hurt my wittle fee-wings.
Chris, I am sorry, I have no idea what you are really talking about in practical application. I do not think being a Christian means one does not take steps to protect others from harm.
It is not wise to ignore facts. But we always do. Chamberlain did, too, and announced peace in his time.
Freedom of religion for a Muslim in the United States would mean that s/he would have to ignore or repudiate the second half of the Koran. I am not sure many folks really understand that.
"They believe in a generous hospitality at the same time they would be more than willing to kill you if need be. It is something very hard for us to understand."
Actually, Lydia, I think it's easy to understand if we consider the way the Koran is organized. It lacks the organic historical grounding that God so wisely inspired in Scripture.
Imagine Christians trying to figure out the right way to live with nothing but the book of Proverbs. One minute they're answering a fool according to his folly and the next minute they're not answering a fool according to his folly. That's the Muslim dilemma - which uninspired proverb do I live by today? And then I guess he or she chooses according to whatever most appeals at the moment.
Chris, Maybe this would help explain what I am talking about. It is only 10 minutes but gives you in a nutshell the problem with 'moderate' Muslims and the Koran. It seems Yousef tried to help folks understand this, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlhNAEClzZw&feature=channel_page
Chris Ryan,
Maybe I’m missing your point when you said, “At least there, nobody is actually killing each other.”
Am I so much of a moderate that you did not read my comment telling of women being killed?
I hope you do not have the attitude of Ken Hemphill in saying,
“The revised BFM is not being forced on anyone, and requesting faculty at seminaries to sign it should not alarm anyone.”
He implied faculty was no one; do you do the same with women?
Joe,
I was tired and did a dumb thing, so I've deleted my one liner. Forgive me for letting my sinful nature have it's way.
Everyone,
Without regard to what anyone says to you, how you feel you've been treated, or the frustration you may feel due to another's comments, what would happen if each one of us let these words run through our head before we post?....."I can't violate scripture to make my point." If I had done that, I wouldn't have posted my one liner. I truly feel that comments on most blogs aren't reflective of Christ's standard. We're more like bickering teenagers sometimes than men and women striving to serve our King. We can disagree, but it just seems we have to do a lot better job of running our thoughts through the mind of Christ before they are posted for the world to see.
Jeff,
Good words bro. I also try to do that before I speak to my wife, kids, friends, co-workers, etc. Although, I do appreciate good natured sarcasm, aka talking smack!
Hi CHRIS RYAN,
I agree with your comments here. Sometimes we forget that the Prince of Peace also descends from the great Patriarch, Father Abraham, through His Mother, Mary.
The blood of Abraham flowed in His veins in the same way that, through Abraham's cast-off son Ishmael, the blood of Abraham flows in the veins of many Islamic people.
It is often forgotten, but there is a little known, obscure passage in the Bible, where Isaac and Ishmael are reconciled as they come and stand together to jointly bury their father Abraham.
One of my relatives spent a year in Iraq. My niece, Lindsay, was a trauma surgical Navy nurse. She has seen first hand the results of fundamentalist hatred. She has seen some of our soldiers die on the operating table.
Yet Lindsay is not hateful, or bitter, or fearful of the Islamic people. She is a Christian girl, raised by my brother and my sister-in-law in the Methodist Church. There she was taught a different way from the fundamentalist approach to 'speaking truth in love'. A much different way.
Lindsay has seen the results of what fundamentalist extremists can do when they hijack a religion.
She knows that fear-mongering extremism, with its inherent corruption, should not be a part of any faith, least of all Christian.
She was able, along with many of her fellow female nurses, to volunteer in the Islamic community to treat women and children at health clinics. The women would not accept male doctors for gynecological or obstetric care, because of their religion. But Lindsay was accepted and helped many patients in need.
I'm proud of my niece. She understands the Gospel of the Prince of Peace. She is not a hater, she is not fearful, but more importantly, she is a loving servant and follower of the Christ, in Whose veins flowed the blood of all who descend from Abraham.
Peace of Christ,
Love, L's
P.S. Our Lindsay is planning to study medicine and to return to help these people in future as an M.D. I am sure she understands what real 'truth in love' is all about. We love her very much. I know she will further the work of the Kingdom of the Lord in her caring for these people.
If the followers of Islam are not intentional enemies of Christianity, why is it that in all fifty-five of the predominately Muslim nations on earth followers of Christianity are persecuted?
CB,
I can't believe you would malign the peace loving Muslims like that. It's not our place to say how someone gets to heaven and certainly we have no right to be exclusive and suggest that we've found the only way. We should just accept anybody as being a child of God no matter what they believe. After all, that's what Jesus did.
(removes tongue from cheek) Have you noticed that Christians are the only ones that are NOT allowed to say that their religion is the exclusive way to God?
Which, by the way, (I failed to add) only magnifies the wonder and gloriousness of God's grace that the person Wade's post was about has become a follower of Christ. The grace of God transcends all barriers to bring salvation to sinners.
This is why I am fascinated with the substance of this post. God saves sinners. And boy, am I glad.
cb
"Have you noticed that Christians are the only ones that are NOT allowed to say that their religion is the exclusive way to God?"
Joe,
Yes I have noticed that in many places around the globe. And now, sadly, even in my native country it seems to be happening more and more.
cb
CB,
They may view us as their enemies. I'll go so far as to say that in many places, they do. But since we have the Truth, we know that our enemies are not flesh and bone. We shouldn't view them as our enemies.
Rex,
I certainly do not think that women are "nobodies." I read your post, too. I'm not one who skips posts because I disagree with people. Lydia was not talking about honor killings. She was referring to a request by Rick Warren that moderate Muslims work with Christians in a civil manner to try and make the world a better place. That was, in her words, a "fake civility."
I tried to point out that war is more destructive than peace, no matter how fake the peace is. As the moderate Muslims to whom Lydia was referring are just as likely to condemn honor killings as Christains are, I think a fake civility is a much better option than forcing war. I by no means meant that we should condone and not speak out against honor killings.
Lydia,
What facts am I ignoring? That in order to be a "Moderate Muslim" you must ignore half of the Koran? Because if so, I should point out that the OT issues many of the same commands those Moderate Muslims (and most Christians) ignore.
You keep on telling us that there must be violence. I'm not saying you are wrong, especially for those who are not ready to dismiss those parts of the Koran. I'm just saying that it's wrong for us to be promoting an attitude or climate of violence.
But I think Thomas Helwys and Roger Williams would both be dissapointed that are advocating people only have religious liberty if they are willing to act like Christians. It is so sad that we are ready to love if we are put in no danger by it.
L's,
I think that Lyndsey has indeed figured out how to express truth in love.
"I tried to point out that war is more destructive than peace, no matter how fake the peace is."
I'm inclined to agree with you with the exception of that great spiritual war in which people say 'peace, peace' when there is no peace.
Chris: I agree with you. Our enemies are not flesh and blood. They are not the Muslims or those without Christ. It is Satan who blinds them.
Until we learn that, we are not going to get anywhere in our evangelism. It's always going to be a fight to the finish.
Darby: What great spiritual warfare? There is always spiritual warfare going on.
That's what I'm referring to Debbie. We can't lay down the weapon of the gospel and say let's be at peace because it's too uncomfortable to feel at war. That's my point.
Chris,
I realize we are at war as believers, not with flesh and blood, "but against principalities....rulers of the darkness...."
But it is to flesh and blood we go with the gospel. And, brother it is flesh and blood who cuts off our arms, legs and heads.
Chris, I am not saying we should abandon the efforts to evangelize these people. In fact, we should increase our efforts.
What I am saying is that we should remember that admonition to be wise as serpents in our efforts to be harmless as doves.
We need to be sure and understand that without exception, every nation whose governance is under Islamic rule persecutes Christians. There are no known exceptions to that statement. They "all" persecute Christians.
Therefore when this brother in Wade's post goes back home, we should be in great prayer for him. For he goes back to a hostile homecoming, no matter where he goes in the Islamic world.
cb
"It is Satan who blinds them.
Until we learn that, we are not going to get anywhere in our evangelism. It's always going to be a fight to the finish."
I think this is right and I think it fits with what cb is saying. The battle is against Satan, but Satan comes at the gospel and therefore the Christians who are preaching it with human fists and swords and guns.
I think it would be foolish to give up what Paul obviously had no problem with: calling some enemies of the cross. Not our enemies, but definitely enemies of Christ. Saying that isn't saying they aren't defeated with love. But they are either defeated with love or they keep being enemies of the cross.
First of all,lets stop making this about me wanting war/violence. I never said that. So lets stop with that, please. That is meant to be a conversation stopper. Let's not do that this time. :o)
I am dealing in facts. And I do not appreciate L's painting any disagreement with her position as fundamentalists (Islamic or Christian) who want to kill people.
I have a family member who flew into Kabul airport where Jeeps were burning on the runway the war was so young. She had gone in with the new minister of health to facilitate emergency clinics in conjunction with with a medical school here to treat the population. And yes she wore a burqua. So, L's you are not the only one who has family members expressing love in a dangerous place. And she knows the Koran, too.
"What facts am I ignoring? That in order to be a "Moderate Muslim" you must ignore half of the Koran? Because if so, I should point out that the OT issues many of the same commands those Moderate Muslims (and most Christians) ignore."
Chris, Let's deal only in facts. But first, please read the Koran. When you read it, pay close attention to the latest commands of Mohammad. Not the early ones. The later commands tell them to seek out and ambush unbelievers and kill them. It is in there. A plain reading of the Koran. There are at least 100 verses that teach this.
We are not in the Old Covenant anymore. You know that. Yousef was changed by Jesus's Words to Love your enemies. It is the exact opposite of the Koran's latest commands.
"You keep on telling us that there must be violence. I'm not saying you are wrong, especially for those who are not ready to dismiss those parts of the Koran. I'm just saying that it's wrong for us to be promoting an attitude or climate of violence."
I have not communicated well. My point is that there are no moderate Muslims. If they speak peace then they are not following Koran. What does that mean when Mohammads last commands were to seek out and kill unbelievers? Are they ignoring the Koran? Then what makes them Muslims? Do you see what I am getting at here? Are they advocating a false peace? or are they ignoring the Koran? Which is it?
There are bad Christians but it is clear they are not following the commands of our Lord in the NT. You cannot make that claim with Islam. So what makes a devout Muslim? So the ones who speak peace are not devout?
Instead of seeking civility or a false peace, why are we not asking the hard questions of them? How can they both follow the Koran and live under our Constitution? Do you consider it unloving for Christians to ask those questions?
Our NT does not call for us to force conversions under threat of death.
"But I think Thomas Helwys and Roger Williams would both be dissapointed that are advocating people only have religious liberty if they are willing to act like Christians. It is so sad that we are ready to love if we are put in no danger by it."
Do you understand what 'religious liberty' means if you follow the Koran? The Koran and our Constitution are diametrically opposed. Do you see the problem?
Why is it so hard to ask them,in love, why their scripture teaches them to kill us when our scripture teaches us to love them? Should we not be concerned? Why can't those with a platform like Warren ask these hard questions?
God in the Flesh died for us but Mohammad says that he wants their sons and daughters to die for him.
Chris and all, do not forget I have been around Muslims since age 11. You cannot imagine how much I love them. Their lives are drowning in works. They NEVER know if they really pleased Allah or not. It is considered pious to lie to an infidel. Even one who has loved you and given you hospitality.
What does this mean? Love them, tell them the truth and in the meantime protect ourselves as best we can.
Yes, it is spiriutal warfare but in the meantime, it seems unwise to pretend there can be peace when it is one of the fastest growing religions in not only the world but growing quite fast here as well.
Notice:
"Their lives are drowning in works. They NEVER know if they really pleased Allah or not. It is considered pious to lie to an infidel. Even one who has loved you and given you hospitality."
Zero in on this:
"It is considered pious to lie to an infidel."
I don't know where, but the author of this has been around many real world Muslims within their culture.
Lydia,
I think that the key issue between you and I is expressed when you say, "our Constitution."
I will not use that expression. I will refer to the Constitution of the United States, but as a rule I try to avoid refering to that document as mine. I try to avoid referring to the United States as "my country." I'll let the state deal with its enemies as it sees fit. As for me, I want to try to look exclusively through a Christian lens.
And from that standpoint (with the lens as unclouded as I can get it, though a great deal of clouds remain), I cannot and will not advocate they be forbidden the practicing of their beliefs (and so violate their liberty of conscience). I can and I must insist that their beliefs are wrong. As I read the Gospel, religious liberty isn't a good secular idea but a Gospel imperitive. Williams was ready to give even the "Turk" religious liberty. So am I.
I don't care if their beliefs put them in conflict with the US. My constitution is the Bible and my country is a land I see only afar off. From the perspectives of those, yes, my beliefs conflict with those of a Muslim. And I would ask one why he or she serves a god who demands my death when I serve the God who insists I let them live. But it seems to me (and I fully admit that I could be wrong) that you are asking this to assert your right to life. I am asking this to assert their right to "choose this day whom [they] will serve." I laid my "rights" down long before.
For all I care, they can take over the US government. They can run the world. It has long been the Baptist belief that religious liberty is the greatest privledge a government can give its people. But it has never been something required for the government to function. Will the world be a better place if it is run by Muslim law? I sincerely doubt it. Will it be a safer place? Again, no.
But I have to give them the liberty to practice as they see fit, and I have to have the courage to practice as I see fit even if it will result in my death. I sometimes wonder if religious liberty is the disguise we wear in America to hide our own fear of suffering and martyrdom (generally, that is not specifically to you, Lydia).
"Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods..."
Very well said Chris. All your points. This is how I would see the issue. But I also agree with Lydia's points. I think you two are kind of writing around each other - both of you making true statements that aren't really answering the other.
Chris,
This is an absolute truth and you will get no argument from me:
You quoted:
"Our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods..."
You also said this:
"For all I care, they can take over the US government. They can run the world."
All I can say to this and I say it with no distain or ill will:
You are yet young and you are yet to see true carnage and experience the smell of true evil and the taste of hell on earth.
CB,
I agree with you that we must be praying for Yousef. He is in a great deal of danger, even in the US.
And I agree that it is flesh and blood who will main and destroy our bodies. I agree with you that Lydia is dead on in her description of Muslim beliefs and what the Koran teaches. There is a great deal of danger in those beliefs.
But do I respond in kind? Do I participate in torturing prisoners or in lying to Muslims? Do I demand they convert before being allowed into the US. Emphatically, NO (though the govt is not bound to Christian scruple, and is therefore free to choose any of these options, just as I am free to disagree with them doing so). Those may be shrewd, but they are not gentle.
I'm not saying that I know the way forward for all this. I'm just saying that there are many options put forward (all over, not necessarily here) that we should never even have considered as options.
"But it seems to me (and I fully admit that I could be wrong) that you are asking this to assert your right to life. I am asking this to assert their right to "choose this day whom [they] will serve." I laid my "rights" down long before."
Chris, You still do not hear me. This conversation has nothing to do with MY rights or religious liberty. I am trying to help you to understand there is NO such thing as a moderate Muslim. They cannot both believe the Koran and peacefully coexist with Christians. They cannot be devout Muslims and live under the Constitution.
From that one sentence you assume I would not be willing to serve God or lay down my rights. (shakes head)
You have jumped to conclusions. I am simply asking you to listen to what is being said by Christians about Muslims, "civility and peace" and compare it what is in the Koran. Let us deal in facts.
I am simply asking that we deal in truths. Not platitudes. So we can know what we are dealing with both for the sake of witnessing and protecting our children.
"For all I care, they can take over the US government. They can run the world."
Spoken as a single man with no family to protect? ... especially daughters. Would you willingly hand them over? Of course not. would you want to see Sharia law accepted here? What about the right to life of those women? What about the least of these?
"But do I respond in kind? Do I participate in torturing prisoners or in lying to Muslims? Do I demand they convert before being allowed into the US. Emphatically, NO (though the govt is not bound to Christian scruple, and is therefore free to choose any of these options, just as I am free to disagree with them doing so). Those may be shrewd, but they are not gentle."
Chris, Where have I advocated any of this?
I am simply asking why we (Both Christians and government) do not ask them the hard questions about what the Koran teaches them to do in order to please Allah but hurts unbelievers.
"I am simply asking why we (Both Christians and government) do not ask them the hard questions about what the Koran teaches them to do in order to please Allah but hurts unbelievers."
This is a good point. A fundamental tenet of gospel proclamation is the destruction of idols and the destruction of the structure of ideas that make the idol plausible. By putting the Koran out of reach of discussion, Islam seeks to insulate itself from this destruction. I don't think it's just okay to do what Lydia suggests, but that we have a responsibility to do it. Not for the sake of safe homes, but for the sake of Christ's glory and others' eternal souls.
Joe, why would you say that? How would you refute Chris's statement from Scripture? How is it anything more than a simple trust in the Providence of God to work as he sees fit? Maybe you should consider that the church is growing fastest in hostile countries before you go violating Matthew 5:22.
Joe, why would you say that?
Um, could have something to do with having a daughter, a wife, a sister, a handful of nieces that would be abused under Muslim law.
Joe,
With respect to you as a brother in Christ, I think you are way off base scripturally and as a brother to declare what you did about Chris. Whether you agree or disagree with what he has said, he has said it with respect to all those with whom he is conversing.
He is a thoughtful and truth seeking young man who does not need my defense and so I'm not defending him but am doing this out of love for you.
He has, obviously committed himself to living out what he believes and is even talking about it with brothers and sisters with whom he might disagree and doing it in grace as are they. Good for him and them.
I would ask you to apologize to him and all others if you would. Thank you in advance.
Joe,
Chris is not an idiot. There are idiots who are Christians. There are Christians who are idiots who comment on blog posts, but Chris is not of that ilk.
Chris is the same idealist that many of us were before we saw that of which nightmares are made.
I admire Chris and I wish reality was what his idealism is. But I know it is not.
Chris,
Lydia is telling you the truth. I feel you are reading into what she has said that which simply is not there.
I think the woman has already been in harms way more than she would dare tell.
Lydia does nor count me as a comrade, but in this case she is speaking as only those who have seen the truth of these things can.
Joe,
Your comment has been deleted. Though you are a brother in Christ, your attitude and words directed at your fellow brother in Christ (Chris) crossed the line.
Please display a Christ-like spirit and maintain your Christian dignity when you comment. Ask yourself if Christ would comment toward a brother in Christ in the same manner.
Thanks,
Wade
By the way, Joe, I agree with you and disagree with Chris.
It's not your argument or position that is objectionable, it is the manner in which you treat someone who disagrees with you that crosses the line (using personal epitaphs).
Wade
In reading all the comments, and knowing that Christianity has a history of ill-will towards Islam, it occured to me to investigate if my Church had ever tried to reach out positively to the Islamic peoples.
I came across a rather hopeful message from John Paul II
"in 1991, choosing to write directly to Muslims, John Paul II gave a fuller reference to this text:
“I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria:
‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself.
You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’
“These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace.”
In the midst of all the weakness of our hatred and our fear-filled contempt,
there are times when the Word of the Lord, commanding us to 'love one another', begins to burn too brightly in our spirits to be extinguished.
And just for a while, we are made strong enough to reach out.
Sometimes we do. Love, L's
"And just for a while, we are made strong enough to reach out.
Sometimes we do."
With what do we reach out, L's?
Lydia, CB, et al,
Yes. I have to admit that I overstated my case. Youthful zeal. Sorry.
I would never actually vote for someone who advocated using Muslim law as civil law. I won't deny them the right to run (and I don't think anyone here would), but the beauty of religious freedom is that I can vote my conscience as readily as anybody else. My conscience points in radically different directions than does that of the devout Muslim. However, should God allow that Muslim rule come to pass (something I would try to prevent until it was a reality), I do not think that the political reality should affect how the spiritual reality is approached.
Though I do not know what Joe said, and don't need to, I thank those of you who spoke for me. I apologize for not being careful and creating the need. Joe, I'm sorry that my carelessness of thought prompted any unkindness from or towards you.
Lydia,
I do not believe that you ever advocated any of that. The comment was directed at CB. Those were simply meant as a negative foil. Not as indicators of your position. My apology if it came across as otherwise. I can see how the structure of that comment could mislead, though I intemtionally seperated the paragraphs to try and prevent such connections from occuring.
I don't think that we should leave the Koran off limits in our dialogue with Muslims. We should be able to ask them the hard questions. They never hesitate to ask them of us. You have insisted from the beginning that there can be no peace with those who take seriously every word of the Koran. You are undoubtedly correct. That is what prompted my war/peace button. I have simply asked that the war against flesh and blood (not the war against ideas that are insipired by wicked entities) not be fought by us. We can war with the words which Satan inspired all day long. We MUST! But to view the people as our enemies goes to far in my opinion.
I realize that you have never explicitely said Muslims are our enemies. Just that their beliefs are incompatible with our own. And, generally, those of the US. If I have one fault in my communication techniques (or, rather one that stands above the plethora of others), it is that I most often write a response to a person but deal with other systematic issues which I think play into the discussion, however loosely. I do so for the purpose, not usually of the person I am responding to, but so that I can challenge prevelent ideas of larger culture and readership. I know I do it, but many times it becomes hard for me to see when I stop speaking to the commentator and start speaking to other issues within the system, so I don't always remember to make such distinctions. As such, it sometimes seems that I am attributing those thoughts to the commentator.
Undoubtedly, I did that here to you. Though it does not change that what I have said is what I believe, please accept my most humble apologies for where I may have incorrectly attributed other people's beliefs to you.
Hi DARBY,
You wrote this: "With what do we reach out?"
Hopefully, in the middle of all the bitterness and rejection, we reach out with something of hope, some gift of love that can say to them: you are more important to us than what divides us.
Would God want us to reach out to the Islamic peoples in a way that embraces them where they are, with dignity and respect?
There is a story of caring in the Book of Genesis:
The Patriarch of the Islamic peoples is also Abraham, who sent Ishmael into the desert with his mother. From Ishmael, the Islamic peoples descend.
But the story of Hagar and Ishmael does not end when they are sent away. We learn of how the Lord heard them and sent angels to care for them:
"So Abraham rose early in the morning, and took bread and a skin of water, and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed, and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes.
16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot; for she said, ‘Do not let me look on the death of the child.’ And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept.
17 And God heard the voice of the boy; and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven, and said to her, ‘What troubles you, Hagar? Do not be afraid; for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is.
18 Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him.’
19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went, and filled the skin with water, and gave the boy a drink.
20 God was with the boy, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness, and became an expert with the bow.
21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran; and his mother got a wife for him from the land of Egypt." (from Genesis 21)
We may not understand the ways of the Lord, but we can try to follow as He leads us. If He cared enough to send angels to feed Ishmael and his mother, then perhaps we can extend our hands to their descendents? Perhaps not. His ways are so far above our ways.
Love, L's
L's
Thanks for answering. I was hoping the gospel might have been the answer, but oh well, there's always next time. God bless.
Chris, no problem.
I do agree with CB about idealism. Churchill once said and I paraphrase.. that anyone under 30 who is not a liberal (idealistic) is heartless and anyone over 30 who is not 'conservative' (realistic in this case) has no brains. :o)
And let me make a distinction lest you think I am all politics. I believe our government has the right to ask the hard questions of Muslims who come here. Their violent religion is also their civil law. There is no distinction. if they follow Koran they cannot uphold the Bill of Rights, either.
And Darby is right: We MUST as Christians ask the hard questions. When we go before them as Christians and speak of peace and civility we are not doing them eternal life favors. We need to lovingly ask them how they plan to live peaceably with us Christians and other non Muslims and follow the Koran at the same time. Because, according to their own scripture, that is impossible.
And show them the TRUE God that died for THEM. Not a fake moon god that demands they send their children to die for him.
But think of the Glory it brings to the TRUE God that a son of Hamas is a follower of Jesus Christ!
I get snippets of some of the things God is doing in the Far East and it is incredible. Just like the Joel prophecy some are dreaming of Isa,seeking Him and then come in contact with believers who can teach them...secretly of course as they grow in their faith.
But DARBY,
The Gospel IS love.
The story of how God comes to save us when He hears our cries was foretold many times in the Old Testament.
The Gospel lies hidden unborn in the Old Testament, and unfolds in the New.
Love, L's
L's, you said the gospel is love.
I agree with you that the gospel is the highest expression of love in the universe, but it's another thing all together to flip the saying around to mean love is the gospel. That's what it appears to me you're doing if you suggest Pope John Paul's words to the Muslims were actually somehow gospel-centered.
The gospel is the news of Christ's dying in the place of sinners. The fruit of that news is that people will come out of every false way of relating to God through repentance from those ways and follow God through Christ's atonement. I don't read that in your quote of the pope, nor in any notion that we're just supposed to somehow serve Muslims (or anyone else for that matter).
I would also remind you that through Isaac shall thy seed by called.
1 John 4:8
"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love."
And His Ways are far above ours.
Lydia,
Well, I haven't hit 30 yet (honestly, it still seems forever away). So give me some time. :)
I too have been hearing stories from the Muslim world. Friends from church and old classmates who are braving those territories to take the Gospel to people who desperately need it. I pray for them daily. And the stories they are sending back of progress, slow but sure, is encouraging. And then I pray all the more that God will stay the hand of Satan and allow His message to proceed unhindered. There is reason for great rejoicing.
And danger enough for constant vigilance and unceasing prayer. But such is always the case when God is at work.
Chris, did you just add a new pic? Where are you in the picture?
We tried to help Crowder find a wife. Maybe we can help you, too. :o)
Lydia,
It's a new profile pic, though the pic itself is a few years old. I was in West Africa for a month on a mission trip. Probably best not to say the coutntry as customs wouldn't have let us past if our visas had indicated "missions" as the reason for visiting.
And I'm sure that your matchmaking skills are par excellance, but I'm not really looking right now. I'm enjoying the opportunities to serve the Kingdom that singleness provides. Thanks for the offer, though.
Chris,
I’m glad I was wrong in thinking your comment was referring to the killing of women as no one.
As far as ‘fake peace’ being better than war, I believe there are two sides to that. For a short time the ‘fake peace’ looks better than war, but what about ‘long term’?
War is flesh and blood, but Paul said:
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” (Eph 6:12)
So the question is what is ‘fake peace’? Is it what Paul refered?
If so, the ‘fake peace’ is/will be worse in the long run than war now.
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