Sunday, July 19, 2009

When Cultural Bias Leads to Interpretive Error

It has been my distinct pleasure to discover the writings of Suzanne McCarthy of Vancouver, Canada. Suzanne has commented on this blog, which led me to her own blog to read several articles she has written. Out of the many that I found quite interesting, the following is a repost from Thursday, July 9th's blog, written the day before the 500th anniversary of John Calvin's birth. This post typifies the abilities of Suzanne to cause readers with a high view of the sacred text to pause before being dogmatic with particular - and often cultural - interpretations of the Word. Suzanne writes:

(Beginning of Post)_______________

Twice recently, I have heard an interpretation of 1 Tim. 5:8. Here it is.

εἰ δέ τις τῶν ἰδίων
καὶ μάλιστα οἰκείων οὐ προνοεῖ,
τὴν πίστιν ἤρνηται καὶ ἔστιν ἀπίστου χείρων.

(Translation)If anyone does not provide for his relatives,
and especially for his immediate family,
he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever
.

Three masculine pronouns give the average English reader the notion that this verse is addressed to men. However, in the Greek there are no masculine pronouns, and only one masculine plural ending. Not an indication of a male only subject.

But I have listened to two sermons lately where the preacher just assumed that the original Greek was addressed to men.

First, Mark Driscoll says that this is the perfect memory verse for men. And here is what he said in his sermon on 1 Tim. 5:1-16 at minutes 36-38 . . .

If you men don’t take care of your family you are worse than a pagan. … We don’t have any member in the church who is married and is a mother who works outside of the home.

And in another sermon, a more egalitarian preacher said that, although this verse was originally addressed to men, women can provide also. Both of these seminary educated men, who believe they have the credentials to interpret the scripture for their congregation, have misunderstood the Greek.

So, what did Calvin write about this verse?

Erasmus has translated it “If any woman do not provide for her own,” making it apply exclusively to females. But I prefer to view it as a general statement; for it is customary with Paul, even when he is treating of some particular subject, to deduce arguments from general principles, and, on the other hand, to draw from particular statements a universal doctrine. And certainly it will have greater weight, if it apply both to men and to women.

________________________________ (End of Post)

As Colonel Klink on Hogan's Heroes used to say, "Interesting . . . very interesting!"

:)

In His Grace,

Wade Burleson

214 comments:

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Jon L. Estes said...

Lydia,
God does not tell us but God does say Adam listened, hearkened, obeyed to Eve. Was God wrong?

Lydia said...

Lydia,
God does not tell us but God does say Adam listened, hearkened, obeyed to Eve. Was God wrong?

Thu Jul 23, 05:02:00 PM 2009

God is never wrong but Jon can be.

So, the most important event in the young history of the world hinging on this one sinful act and God leaves out what Eve was supposed to have said to Adam to make him eat the fruit?

That is an argument from silence.

We do know that Adam was right there 'listening' to his wife talk. And that she gave him the fruit and he ate it.

I am really starting to worry for your sheep.

Former FBC Insider said...

Jon,

I 'want you' to mean something else?? Just repeating you.

It doesn't matter if I like it or not.

You said it.
I repeated it.

We will disagree.
I agree with that.
I can still love you.

Jon L. Estes said...

Former,

I almost always disagree with your comments and positions of support for the other blog but you are the most gracious towards me in our dialog with each other.

I really do try and not make this personal toward those I am commenting against but I admit I often slip over a line I wish I hadn't.

jle

Former FBC Insider said...

Jon,

I can admire your passion for what you believe. We can be brothers in the faith and differ on things that only we (both of us) have experienced for ourselves.

I do hope that you will never be in a position that 'other' pastors are in today. I'd love to see you be honored as "the good and faithful servant". I know you want that too.

Much love.

Unknown said...

I don't believe anyone ever commented on how the original recipients understood this. You can do all the fancy translation you want but if you do not consider how those first folks received it then you are not doing proper interpretation. I am no social settings expert and far from a language scholar but I will contend that the first hearers/readers were looking to the men for provision.

Jon L. Estes said...

Thanks to all the women folk who gave me plenty of illustrations for the message I preached this AM on the Titus 2 woman.

Tim Marsh said...

Aaron,

I have commented on the historical context and Paul's rhetoric.

No one wants to talk in those terms. My guess is that many really do not know, care, or have the desire to research New Testament Backgrounds.

To me, it is laziness.

We claim that the Bible is the Word of God and we want it to be the authority for our faith and practice, yet we do not want to do our homework to provide our congregations with the best readings of the text.

Maybe we fear that our traditions will come unraveled. If so, then so be it. I will stand with the text before I stand with tradition.

Jon L. Estes said...

Tim,

I responded to your comment on quietness. I'd love to take it further with you if you so desire.

Lydia said...

Thanks to all the women folk who gave me plenty of illustrations for the message I preached this AM on the Titus 2 woman.

Sun Jul 26, 01:35:00 PM 2009

Jon, you better work hard to make sure your sheep never study deeply on their own and only listen to you.

Jon L. Estes said...

Lydia,

So do you believe those who study deeply on their own will interpret scripture as you do?

If so, will those who study and come to a different interpretation be accused of shallow theology?

If so, are you making your conclusion the final say?

I'll share this with my people and see if they think their study is shallow or deep.

Of course it is funny that you seem to be saying my conclusions are from shallow study and you don't even know me so it must be because we come to different conclusions.

That line of thinking seems to be shallow, at best.

Lydia said...

If so, are you making your conclusion the final say?


Mon Jul 27, 02:14:00 PM 2009

Jon, I refer you back to your interpretation from silence in Genesis as an example of your exegesis. Are you making your conclusion the final say?

You say, I do not know you? I have been reading you for a long time...going back to your teaching on 'touch not thine anointed' for pastors on BBCopenforum. I can only go by your words on blogs as to what you teach and believe.

As to Titus 2 and that proof text for roles for women for all time...I will go back to what my mother used to say: Beware of pastors who spend an inordinate amount of time preaching on secondary non salvic doctrines such as what all women should be doing. It can easily fall into legalism. Which is exactly what pink and blue roles are: legalism. As there are no 'roles' in scripture.

Thankfully, she paid no attention to such staunch legalism of 'roles' so she was able to witness to and teach many men about Christ from scripture including many Muslims.

Jon L. Estes said...

If so, are you making your conclusion the final say?


Mon Jul 27, 02:14:00 PM 2009

Jon, I refer you back to your interpretation from silence in Genesis as an example of your exegesis. Are you making your conclusion the final say?

-
I missed your answer but notice your question. The only silence is what Eve said to Adam. God said she said Adam listened too, hearkened and you said, obeyed. Everyone of these infer greatly that Eve said something. If you think otherwise I would disagree but did not make my response the final say.
-
You say, I do not know you? I have been reading you for a long time...going back to your teaching on 'touch not thine anointed' for pastors on BBCopenforum. I can only go by your words on blogs as to what you teach and believe.
-
Yes, you do not know me. You can read my blog to hear my heart clearer, if you wish top know my heart better.
-
As to Titus 2 and that proof text for roles for women for all time...
-
I refuse to make Titus 2 a limited truth for a time period other than now. Some might, but I don't.
-
I will go back to what my mother used to say: Beware of pastors who spend an inordinate amount of time preaching on secondary non salvic doctrines such as what all women should be doing. It can easily fall into legalism. Which is exactly what pink and blue roles are: legalism. As there are no 'roles' in scripture.
-
Inordinate amount of time on this subject? Are you speaking to me concerning this thought. Other than on this blog, where have I written about this subject and other than this Sundays sermon, when have I preached on it. As I preach through Titus, I must not skip over it but deal with it as it is given. I do't think I could be rightly accused of inordinate amount of time spent. If you can show differently, I'll be glad to listen.

And yes, there are gender related roles in scripture.
-
Thankfully, she paid no attention to such staunch legalism of 'roles' so she was able to witness to and teach many men about Christ from scripture including many Muslims.
-
Now people who differ on this from you are legalists. WOW, that is a bog leap.

Lydia said...

"Yes, you do not know me. You can read my blog to hear my heart clearer, if you wish top know my heart better."

Jon, your heart comes through your words here and on other blogs. And so is mine. The difference is that I do not want power and authority over others. Nor do I want to pretend like it is 'service'. Nor do I make my living from it as you do. I believe in mutual submission of all believers one to another. There is no class of professional anointed Christian in the Body. Only lowly servants.

I have made my point about Genesis and how you are arguing from silence about the most important event in the history of creation.

Your earlier comment on us giving you illustrations for your sermon on Titus 2 was vague enough to give you plausible deniability but those of us who have been reading you for a long time could see the arrogance and deception. I am only basing that on reading you for 2 years now. And I fully expect you to say that is not how it was meant. And on the head games go. I think I will get off your roller coaster now.

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