When driving Paul Young to the airport after speaking at our church, he expressed to me how refreshing the weekend had been for him, particularly after the difficulties of the week before. I asked him to elaborate, and after a moment of hesitation, he said that he had learned that a friend and fellow minister had recently turned on Paul and was sending out mailings to churches detailing how Paul Young was a "heretic." Paul was surprised to learn that I had not received a package myself.I asked Paul what he intended to do in response to the mailings. He was silent for a moment and said, "Nothing." Paul went on to explain that his mission in life was not to correct the mistatements of his opponents. In years past he would have felt the need to correct the incorrect opinions that others had of him, but having now come to an incredible sense of his own worth to Christ, it was neither necessary nor beneficial to put out fires about his character and integrity started by others. The conversation was refreshing and reminded me that . . .
(1). I'd much rather be around a person with a gracious spirit and a secure sense of his personhood, even though I may disagree with this person doctrinally, than to keep the company of a mean-spirited person - even though we may be in complete agreement doctrinally. To phrase it a little stronger - I sometimes wonder if there are those who give mental assent to evangelical truth, but have been still-born spiritually, possessing none of the divine life of God in them - life evidenced by love for people (John 13:35).
(2). I am convinced that one of the greatest evidences of strong character and genuine security is the lack of desire to silence one's detractors and accusers. Insecurity is the mother of twins named control and intimidation. A secure soul, finding genuine and ultimate satisfaction in Christ, responds to criticism, personal attacks, and derogatory statements with a genuinely gracious spirit. That's not to say there are not times when a response is needed to false accusations, but even when those rare occasions arise, the tone and tenor of the response says far more than the response itself.
In His Grace,
Wade Burleson
74 comments:
Amen. Amen. Amen.
Wade,
Your post here is a good one and it coincides with Your Father’s Post “Open Heart of a Pastor” at :
http://vtmbottomline.blogspot.com/2009/04/open-heart-of-pastor.html
Wayne
Wow, thank you very much for that. Great post.
- Kiel
Paul's blog > An Open Heart Of A Pastor.
.
I'm always challenged with remarks that are born out of a heart that has been humbled by failure and strengthened by the Grace of God. It is that combination that I believe is so lacking in so much of the professional ministry and church life I see on the scene today. It is also that combination that, when seen, reminds us all that there are no super saints in the Kingdom. We all stand equal at the foot of the Cross.
Much is being written on the Internet and other places about what is wrong with the Church and what is needed by Her. Whatever the answer to the question of what is wrong, no change will ever come without the combination of humility of failure and the strengthening of Grace I found in the comment recently put on my blog by a pastor who has given me permission to share those words with you again.
Rodney Sprayberry exhibits the character, hunger, honesty, and conviction to grow in grace that I would want a pastor to possess were he to be MY pastor and the pastor of MY family. Enjoy him as I did as you hear his heart. I will be saying a final word at the end.
Thank you for this Wade. It reminds me of the current political climate in our country right now. I've had more opportunities to be salt and light since the November elections, because I have chosen not to join the crowd of voices criticizing president Obama. My liberal friends are surprised and pleased to hear me say that I pray for him, and pray for his success. I may not always agree with his politics, but I genuinely support him, as commanded in the New Testament. As a result, I am finding the voices on the right to be more and more mean spirited, divisive, and hateful. When Christians align themselves with these secular voices, they take away from their opportunity to influence those around them. As you said in today's post, it is more pleasureable to be around those who on the left, even though we may disagree, than it is to be around bitter people on the right.
JasonK,
I agree.
It is true, however, that there can be some really mean spirited people on the left as well, as I know you would agree.
The gospel of grace transcends one's ideologies, either right or left, and the Bible emphatically declares that the life of God in the soul of a sinner transforms the sinner into a kind, compassionate, loving human being.
So, where that love is absent, either in those on the right OR the left, the life of God is absent.
Thanks for this... I need to be constantly reminded out of my cynicism and sarcasm I sometimes display.
Well said, Wade. And I concur that sometimes the most vocal critics (of anyone/anything) are often those least secure in their own identity, and sometimes even their beliefs. Some people seem to need the "safety" of their own accusations against others. And more's the pity, some of them are afraid to admit their own fears and insecurities even to themselves, but they are present, operating at an unarticulated level.
I had an instance a couple of years ago when I was accused of what I suppose would be considered a moral failure. The chairman of deacons came to me with this an anonymous complaint. Fortunantly, I was able to show that the complaint was groundless. At the time, I thought it was just a case of someone putting two and two together and coming up with five, and frankly, thought little more about it. That is, until a couple of weeks ago, when the deacon chairman mentioned the instance to me. Turned out the anonymous complainant was a man who was caught, a short time after accusing me, in a moral failure of his own. It destroyed his family and his career, not to mention his credibility with the church. The chairman, who by the way is a counselor, said he was convinced that the person who made that complaint was trying to shift attention away from himself, knowing his secret would soon be revealed to the "world."
There are appropriate Bible passages, such as Luke 6:45, "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks." But I also think of the wisdom from Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 2, line 230, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
I don't always agree with you--usually, but not always--but you are willing to listen, and do so with grace. I wish that many of those who commented in the thread about Mr. Young had the same grace.
John Fariss
Wade,
I recently did a word study on the word charis for Greek class. My aim was to prove that grace is only of God, that man cannot exude grace, and that grace is only salvific in nature. (Specifically, I wanted to debunk the idea of "common grace"). While I believe I succeeded in so far as the word charis is used as a noun and translated grace, I also found, as digging deeper sometimes does, other ways in which charis is used. Less frequently we see, as in Luke 25:3, it is used in much the same way we would use the word "favor." (May I ask you a favor? May I ask you to give me some grace?) Where does this usage come from? Homer as well as the writer of Sirach both used the word in this way several times. More study will reveal that many of the forms of charis we see, indeed the whole word group found in TDNT takes a similar historical path as the word charity: to give something to someone who does not possess the means or ability to acquire it themselves. (a fair def.)
Of course charis can also be used adjectivally as in the case of your OP title. So we see that you have rightly identified that it still needs a source. In general something or someone to guide our souls intp a spirit of charity.
Paul Young defines charity as doing nothing. Leaving well enough alone and allowing the Lord to do His will and enact His own vengeance.
Wade, do you give charity to Page Paterson? Do you act graciously toward him? Or do you convict him openly before the world?
I must say, I find Dr. P to be the gracious one here...the one giving YOU a favor. The one who's "chara," or joy is in the Lord despite what others say. Paul young and Paige Patterson are on the same page as far as favor is concerned. Both have chosen the road of "nothing" in response to their detractors.
May the grace of our Lord be upon you and your tribe as you consider my tiny little Greek lesson of the day.
:)
Kevin,
I imagine you will be "challenged" by other bloggers for your observation. I, however, commend your response especially since you expressed yourself so much more graciously than I might have. Thank you.
No one in this room will criticize Dalai Lama as harsh as you all normally trashed Paige Patterson.
Lu Mo Nyet
No one in this room will criticize Dalai Lama as harsh as you all normally trashed Paige Patterson..
Except if you are part of the oppressors - say the Chinese Government, Chinese Military or the Police. They have no hesitation to oppress, suppress in both blood and thievery. Thugs everywhere will eventually lose what they take by force. What endures is what is freely given, not taken by force or by fiat or a diktat.
Kevin,
I have written to Dr. Patterson and requested that we get together for dinner. I volunteered to drive to Fort Worth and pay for both our meals. I have also been by his office with my son in tow, and sought to visit with him, not about business (I wouldn't have had my son), but simply to say hello and let him know that we have several students from Emmanuel, many of whom are there upon my recommendation. I waited for an hour, but he seemed to be delayed with a visiting group from Japan. I left him my private cell phone number and a note saying I had been by to simply say hello.
Kevin, it is possible as Christians to love and accept one another, as I do Dr. Patterson, and be willing to speak out against an action (firing Dr. Klouda) and ideology (removing women from leadership because of a faulty view of women), and seeking to bring doctrinal conformity to a Convention built on diversity.
It is always helpful for Christians to understand that differences of opinion and doctrinal disagreements do no equate to a personal rejection of the people with whom you disagree.
Ask yourself Kevin the following question - Do you believe that the number of fellow Christians that you and Dr. Patterson would be willing to fellowship with, cooperate with, and worship with is as large of a number as those with whom I would be willing to do the same?
I think you will find that speaking out against the separation and exclusive characteristics of a narrow ideology is not the same thing as rejecting the people who hold to that ideology.
Blessings,
Wade
Wade,
God gave me a perspective on what's really important through an encounter with a truck driver last night. It's a little lengthy for a comment, so I'll just post the link. The beginning paragraph link's it to the subject of this post.
I know I don't add much to the discussion here, but I believe you will be blessed if you take less than five minutes to read this.
http://www.mhoutreach.org/synapse/news/fullstory_public.cfm?articleid=31260&website=mhoutreach.org
Jeff
WT Jeff,
Thanks for the link - great post!
Lu Mo Nyet
I would like to gently challenge you to provide one example where Dr. Patterson himself has been trashed by me. You will be unsuccessful.
Saying it has happened does not make it so.
Neither does your confusion over challenging an un-Christian behavior equate to condemning one's Christian character.Blessings,
Wade
I was greatly touched by Paul Young's visit to Emmanuel.
Being critical of his doctrine after having read The Shack, I came to the conclusion that some people miss the beauty of the forest because they are looking at the bark on the trees to harshly to paraphrase a great quote.
Simply how could he have accomplished so much out of such a simple story if God had not been with him and blessed him and his endeavor?
Wade,
I have finally figured it out. Your last comment to me helped me to finally put all the pieces together. You see, Dr. Patterson never knew you visited his office. Lu Mo Nyet stole the note and is now bent on destroying you for trying to disrupt Patterson's meeting with the Japanese delegation of which Lu Mo Nyet
was obviously apart.
Thank you for the clarification. We can be friends again.
;)
Well, Kevin, glad to know you haven't lost your sense of humor.
It's funny, but I am in the early stages of learning what Paul Young has apparantly been practicing for some time--the art of letting God's love and acceptance be enough. I am being taught that my need for man's acceptance is feudal and that the alternative to feudal thinking is Christ-thinking. When I feel the need to defend myself, prop up my status, or in someway seek approval through others, I am trying to focus on the cross-conditioned acceptance that I have through Christ, His unlimited love for me, and my ability to share love and value out of my overflow. Paul it seems has learned that once God's acceptance is in place--nobody else's means very much. May his kind increase among us...
Wade,
Since I FIRST visited this blog that has been my impression--anti Patterson (as per Klouda's case; and later of Patterson's personal dogs, etc.-- which is his private business). Your blog is much broader in scope than that subject of course.
Also you NEVER said one word explicitly that you question Patterson's character, etc. But everybody knows that there are many ways to skin a cat.
The IMPRESSION I got was NOT by means of your explicit words, but by all the carefully chosen words and highly sophisticated wordings you've succesfully thrased Patterson (might not by design--only you and God knows it). Much like beating around the Bush, but not at Bush himself. Very sophisticated writings. To me it is good politics, but bad theology. I don't know politics, just beginning to learn Bible.
Wade, no hard feelings please. You just have Paul Young filled your pulpits; I just wondering will you have Patterson soon at your pulpit preaching unlimited atonement?
Honestly I think you meant well as proven by the many fans you have at this blog, but I think you have been influenced by the culture of postmodernism.
Lu Mo Nyet
Lu,
And you have been influenced by the culture of Modernism, as I pointed out in a previous post.
We make a mistake when any of us think that we are free of cultural biases and presuppositions. It takes a great deal of courage to admit that what the culture has always told you is wrong. It takes even more courage to examine how you have always experienced God and read the Bible for influence of the culture you realize isn't infallible.
Few have the courage, insight and self-awareness to undertake such a task and complete it wholly successful. Actually, probably only Jesus did.
Just bought a copy of the movie "Joshua" at a garage sale and was struck by the impact it had on me. Found the film to cause a similar reaction as the one I had to Paul's book.
After trying to figure it out, I came to one conclusion: it was about the ability of mankind to see the love of God for them. Not told in the 'same way' but in the 'same spirit'.
I'm all for this message getting out to people in as many forms as possible.
Patterson trashed himself.
Commenting on the wrong he did, does not imply an attack on Patterson's character, as Patterson himself set out to openly destroy Dr. Klouda. He would be the first the welcome the publicity.
The shame is that Patterson brought disgrace on the Church by his actions.
Remember, the attacks on women and on gays are coming from the same sources. These sources don't teach of the loving Presence of God.
Chris,
Actually Jesus' teaching & life was not influenced by the culture of His time. And we too can be like Christ as per 1Cor2:16: "But we have [keep on having] the mind [thinking] of Christ." IF He were around today probably SBC churches would rather not having Him fill their pulpits.
Lu Mo Nyet
Chris Ryan:
You said
Remember, the attacks on women and on gays are coming from the same sources. These sources don't teach of the loving Presence of God.
So David Jeremiah doesn't teach of the loving presence of God but Perez Hilton does right! Miss California was attacking
that Gay man.
Boy you got your head on backwards or something...are you a Christaphobe?
http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=2686
To portray Obama as a common ordinary every day run of the mill messiah.May you burn in Gitmo.
Robert,
I hope it doesn't say something negative about my character as compared to Paul Young but I would like to respond to your statement in the post at the bottom of the Washington Post story comments that I was spinning the facts to fit my story. If that is true, I want to understand it. I hope you will look back at the post and read my response and help me understand.
Robert,
Who are you wishing to burn in Gitmo? How can a professing Christian wish death upon another for mere political differences? What this really says about you is that you care not about their soul, in essense saying "whether or not you have been redeemed, your time is up--I wish you to die. I have deemed your eternal fate is sealed in your present state--be it heaven or hell."
Repent Robert. Your statement was morbid and demonic.
I want to have a more gracious spirit.
Kev, that was an example of a 'Robert joke'.
It's when Robert talks seriously about a hating God that I begin to worry for him. There is so much he does not understand yet. If God is not a loving God, we would not have been given mercy in the form of Jesus. Until Robert understands, we must all worry on his account.
Robert's attempt at humor goes over like a lead balloon; his attempt at being like Jesus is far more chilling. We should pray.
Lu,
I don't doubt that Christ's teaching transcends mere cultural norms. Don't think for a moment though that Jesus doesn't speak to those cultural norms or use them to His advantage. If you aren't reading the Bible in light of its pre-modern socio-religio-political context, then oftentimes you are missing the intent of Christ's words.
All Christians have the mind of Christ being formed in them. I don't doubt that either. But if any of us are honest, the process of transformation is far from completed. Proof: if we had the fully formed mind of Christ then we would not still sin. Where our mind has not been fully redeemed is room for a great many cultural interpretations of our own.
Robert,
You never said what about my post you were speaking to. And, honestly, I am just not seeing the connection. Especially in light of your final question. Would you please clarify what your intent was so that I can better understand why you are so concerned and ask myself if I should share your concern?
Breakfast with Fred weekly newsletter:
Hurt gives us the opportunity to know ourselves much better than does success. Many of the world’s great achievers have been lonely. This gave deeper self-knowledge and understanding of their uniqueness. When the time came to steer their course, they didn’t have to depend on others.
These alone times help us know two things: 1) our destructive weaknesses and 2) our constructive strengths. Knowing these two allows freedom to operate well under pressure.
We never truly know ourselves until we navigate the easy and hard times. The breadth of our weaknesses is hidden if we only have one experience or the other. Just as it is important to know the weight limit on a bridge, so it is important to know our own breaking point. We can bolster our weaknesses only if we truly understand them.
As Dr. Dennis Gabor in The Mature Society points out, history provides proof that in trouble man can be noble, but cannot sustain that nobility in long-term prosperity.
In an old issue of The Monthly Letter of the Royal Bank of Canada, I read, “The determining element in maturity is not so much what happens to a person, but the way he takes it. The responses to life of a mature person are of good quality and can be counted on.” The opposite if the juvenile response to problems and the obligations of life.
Knowledge of our self must include our ability to trust others and to trust principles, particularly divine principles. Eric Erickson, the eminent psychiatrist, says that the proper development of trust in a child is one of the most fundamental necessities for a healthy life. Too often I see people in trouble who have let trust turn to cynicism.
The lack of well-placed trust creates tentative living. Trust in the one true God gives us strength to walk through the dark times. Knowledge of Him allows knowledge of ourselves. And self-knowledge comes as one of the values of the valleys.
This week think about: 1) How have dark times helped me know myself? 2) Where am I finding the value in the valley? 3) What are my destructive weaknesses, as well as my constructive strengths?
Words of Wisdom: “Self-knowledge is one of the values of the valleys.”
Wisdom from the Word: “But I trust in your faithfulness. May I rejoice because of your deliverance. “ (Psalm 13:5 NET Bible)
"Wade, do you give charity to Page Paterson? Do you act graciously toward him?"
Kevin, What about giving some grace to his victims? Unfortuantly, that would include making truth known which you would define as ungracious. Catch 22..in favor of Patterson who has been ungracious to many over the last 30 years.
Actually, what Robert quoted was the comment left at the link he gave.
Master and Best Friend.
.
Here are comments left on that post that are similar to what Robert said here:
Blasphemers.
To portray Obama as a common ordinary every day run of the mill messiah.May you burn in Gitmo.
cfm990
April 16th, 2009.
.
.
Wiki > Being There.
.
Was Peter Sellers blaspheming God, by walking on water?
Thanks Byroniac:
just waiting to see how long it took people to get the political humor.
Kevin if you have not figured it out I love politics, theology, and free software(fsf).
My mother actually sent me that from Iowa and the comment was one of only two by someone on that website with that picture.
I thought it was a gracious way of injecting humor into the discussion about liberal fascists.
Thanks Byroniac:
just waiting to see how long it took people to get the political humor.
Kevin if you have not figured it out I love politics, theology, and free software(fsf).
My mother actually sent me that from Iowa and the comment was one of only two by someone on that website with that picture.
I thought it was a gracious way of injecting humor into the discussion about liberal fascists.
Robert:
You attempt at humor failed. I did not notice any quotation marks with your comment.
It is going to be a long 8 years for you. I really wish you were a more respectful person than you are when it comes to the President of the United States.
"Wade, do you give charity to Page Paterson? Do you act graciously toward him?"
Wade has organized for the victims'welfare. He has tried to make contact.
Tom Parker:
Just because you say it does not make it true.
This ringer comes from Lu: "To me it is good politics, but bad theology."
And if anyone knows about bad theology, it's Lu.
Carry on men...
This ringer comes from Lu: "To me it is good politics, but bad theology."
And if anyone knows about bad theology, it's Lu.
Carry on men...
Tue Apr 21, 04:15:00 PM 2009
If anyone knows 'good politics' it is Paige Patterson.
I agree with the last two comments.
And I wrote one of them. :)
Byronic,
I disagree with you on this one. You will see why in a sec.
Robert:
You get no grace on this one. You were not attempting humor nor did you quote a website. When you quote something you MUST put it in quotes. Quite frankly I am sick of your posts that do not use quotes nor site your sources. You lie when you do this. You discredit yourself and commit academic fraud. You prove yourself to be a fake and a scam.
There! You are exposed. Do not defame good humor with your lies.
Say something smart, quote and document something smart, or shut up.
K
And don’t even try to say I am not following Matthew 18…..next time I am bringing someone with me!
K:
Great post!!!!!!
Kevin
I apologize for not putting quotes....I should have put them there!
I usually put links afterword but I thought the link blazing across the picture was pretty obvious.....sorry again.
Robert,
You are forgiven.
To all:
Baptist Press has an article from NOBTS on the roles of the Persons of the trinity. Worth a read.
Wade,
SEBTS is NOT raising tuition either. I am going hunt and hunt and hunt, and if I see so much as a parking fine increase I want them hung out to dry!
:)
Quote:
"IF He (Jesus) were around today probably SBC churches would rather not having Him fill their pulpits."
Are we really having to read silly unthinking stuff like this? What's next, "God is Dead"?
Discussions > Something Is Broken > An update on profile counts....
So many of you have noticed that profile counts have not been updating as they have in the past, and we thought we'd step in and let you know exactly what is going on here and why this change has been put in place.
Basically, having completely accurate counts caused a lot of problems for profile pages that experienced high traffic - at several times in the past few months this has led to difficulties and slowness for the entire service. These problems were amplified even more by a number of users who abused the count by running automated scripts trying to bump up their counts.
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Chris Ryan:
You replied to me with this comment.
"Robert,
You never said what about my post you were speaking to. And, honestly, I am just not seeing the connection. Especially in light of your final question. Would you please clarify what your intent was so that I can better understand why you are so concerned and ask myself if I should share your concern?"
I asked you this question first based on the later part of your statement....here is the statement.
"Remember, the attacks on women and on gays are coming from the same sources. These sources don't teach of the loving Presence of God"
So he is my question again to you!
So David Jeremiah doesn't teach of the loving presence of God but Perez Hilton does right! Miss California was attacking
that Gay man?
In case you have not followed the discussion Miss California got asked a question about homosexual rights then lost the contest due to her religious beliefs.
Frankly even the gay community was trashing Perez Hilton for that question and his bigotry. Then he calls her a B word and then the C word on National television. So who is attacking who?
Also if you didn't get the connection she attends San Diego Christian college which was founded by David Jeremiah.
Do you understand my question now?
BTW---the talk is that Miss California might be suing the Miss USA or Miss Universe pageant for religious discrimination.
Way to go Miss Cali.!
Miss California is the bomb, and in more ways than one. -wink-
Yes. Miss Cali is 'the bomb'.
I admire her for saying that she was glad that all Americans can marry freely.
I admire her for giving her opinion openly and honestly, as she later also stated that it was HER opinion.
She did nothing wrong.
I will be happier for daughters and grandaughters who won't have to parade in a skimpy bikini for attention and competition of externals. I will be happier when the men on a Christian blog who agrees with what she said, doesn't have to go 'wink'.
Yes, vive la difference.
Wonderful to see a beautiful, healthy, honest young woman.
Not so good to see what she must put herself through in order to achieve her potential in our society where her 'pulpit' is a stage, and a microphone;
and where she is forbidden to speak
in church 'pulpit' because what makes the Christian man say (wink) disqualifies her.
You go, Miss Cali,
and by the time your daughters and their daughters have grown up, may they have a dignified 'pulpit' to speak up for what they believe in.
And when, the Christian men can say 'Amen" to their message, instead of 'wink'.
Dear 'wink': you are a good, red-blooded American male who means no harm and I speak not against you personally; just hoping for a better world for all women some day where they can use all their gifts and speak, without restrictions, for their Lord. I hope you understand. If not, then someday, I hope you will.
Ignorant Anony - You just made a jackass out of yourself without even trying. Does it come easy for you?
I am, in fact, a female. I was saying that she is the bomb for stating a strong opinion even though she would be drilled for it by people like you (making fun of her beautiful body) and hollywood celebrities (making fun of her stand).
You are in a good company of people who commonly make jackasses out of themselves (you, Sean Penn, Alec Baldwin, Steven Spielberg, etc...I won't name any of the lady celebrity jackasses so you won't be offended).
And Miss Cali. is the bomb in more ways than one because the percussion effect is still being talked about because of what she said.
So what exactly were you referring to when you thought I was a male?
It wasn't anything sexual, was it?
Perhaps you need to get your mind out of the gutter and get yourself a mirror. You are much too ignorant to be worried about other peoples motives in what they write.
Now go buy your daughter a treadmill and a bikini so she won't have those stupid tan lines.
I'm no Miss Cali., but I love mine.
Everybody:
Please focus on the question as to whether Christians attack homosexuals or homosexuals attack Christians.My experience has been that homosexuals are the most intolerant group of people in America.
The only restrictions on their speaking came FROM the Lord in the Bible (i.e. I Timothy 2). Therefore, since He is the one who put them there no one has the right to just ignore them just because it's not Politically Correct. Our opinions don't matter. What God's word clearly teaches does.
Wed Apr 22, 11:21:00 AM 2009
Wow. A new law just for women in the NT!! Even though there is not one in the OT concerning this. That is incredible.
So, Huldah would have been in sin had she been in the NT!
Calling me names and being insulting is too easy,Joe. Where is the new law for women in the New Covenant?
Why wasn't Huldah in sin for teaching men?
Interesting where this "The Source of a Gracious Spirit" post has gone...
Lydia:
The SBC has come to a conclusion about that issue via the BFM.
However the other point that Chris Ryan brought up in his statement is what I am curious as to your beliefs. Especially in relation to what many have argued should be unconditional love from God.
<< Judges 4 >>
American King James Version
1 And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the LORD, when Ehud was dead. 2 And the LORD sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan, that reigned in Hazor; the captain of whose host was Sisera, which dwelled in Harosheth of the Gentiles. 3 And the children of Israel cried to the LORD: for he had nine hundred chariots of iron; and twenty years he mightily oppressed the children of Israel.
4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. 5 And she dwelled under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment. 6 And she sent and called Barak the son of Abinoam out of Kedeshnaphtali, and said to him, Has not the LORD God of Israel commanded, saying, Go and draw toward mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men of the children of Naphtali and of the children of Zebulun? 7 And I will draw to you to the river Kishon Sisera, the captain of Jabin's army, with his chariots and his multitude; and I will deliver him into your hand. 8 And Barak said to her, If you will go with me, then I will go: but if you will not go with me, then I will not go. 9 And she said, I will surely go with you: notwithstanding the journey that you take shall not be for your honor; for the LORD shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. And Deborah arose, and went with Barak to Kedesh. 10 And Barak called Zebulun and Naphtali to Kedesh; and he went up with ten thousand men at his feet: and Deborah went up with him.
11 Now Heber the Kenite, which was of the children of Hobab the father in law of Moses, had severed himself from the Kenites, and pitched his tent to the plain of Zaanaim, which is by Kedesh.
12 And they showed Sisera that Barak the son of Abinoam was gone up to mount Tabor. 13 And Sisera gathered together all his chariots, even nine hundred chariots of iron, and all the people that were with him, from Harosheth of the Gentiles to the river of Kishon. 14 And Deborah said to Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD has delivered Sisera into your hand: is not the LORD gone out before you? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him. 15 And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled away on his feet. 16 But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host, to Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell on the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.
17 However, Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite: for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite. 18 And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said to him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in to her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle. 19 And he said to her, Give me, I pray you, a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him. 20 Again he said to her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man does come and inquire of you, and say, Is there any man here? that you shall say, No. 21 Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly to him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died. 22 And, behold, as Barak pursued Sisera, Jael came out to meet him, and said to him, Come, and I will show you the man whom you seek. And when he came into her tent, behold, Sisera lay dead, and the nail was in his temples.
23 So God subdued on that day Jabin the king of Canaan before the children of Israel. 24 And the hand of the children of Israel prospered, and prevailed against Jabin the king of Canaan, until they had destroyed Jabin king of Canaan.
"First Timothy 2:11-12 says “Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.” In the church women are to be under the authority of the elders, excluded from teaching men or holding positions of authority over them."
I know this interpretation makes you feel like a manly man with authority but it just is not right in many ways. First of all, the passage is about ONE specific woman. The grammar proves this to be correct no matter what the CBMW says. Secondly, she is not to 'authenteo' (We have another case of negative teaching in the NT in case you use that excuse)
Even Jerome interpreted this as dominate not 'authority over'.
Unfortuantly, there is just not enough evidence..real evidence...to prove that this means authority over. In Greek literature it means something really horrible to do to someone and has nothing to do with authority over.
Thirdly, elders have no authority over folks in the Body. Something our brethren in the SBC need to learn and the followers need to look to Christ. Real elders actually look more like Matthew 5. This is not a passage that appeals to those wanting authority over others. It is about being a servant, Joe. Not having authority over others.
If your interpretation of authority over others in the Body is correct that would mean there would be a layer (another depraved human being) between Jesus Christ and I.
"As to your red herring about Huldah, her brining a message to men from God does not suggest in any way, shape, form, or fashion that she had a regular prophetic role."
Huh? That is how she is described. The 'priests' went to her:
2 Kings 22
14So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter); and they spoke to her.
2 Chronicles 34
22So Hilkiah and those whom the king had told went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of Tokhath, the son of Hasrah, the keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the Second Quarter); and they spoke to her regarding this.
" There are no women anywhere in the OT who served as prophets in the same manner as Isaiah, Elisha, Daniel, etc. No women ever wrote scripture. You can't take someone who brought A message from God and elevate them to the office of prophet no matter how loudly this culture screams "That's not fair" and threatens to hold its breath til it turns blue in the face and passes out."
You are right, Joe. We really are second class persons in Christendom. And I guess God could just not find any men to work through in those instances. I am sure Deborah and Huldah knew this and were ashamed to be used of God in this way. I am sure the priests and Barak knew the same thing.
Joe said 'Finally, I never once said women were second class citizens'
yeah, Joe, and thanks to you, we now have proof.
Knew a girl from Texas, a navy wife with two kids, who told about her upbringing. We were discussing 'women's lib' as it was called back in the 70's.
Marianne told me about how her father 'enforced' her lowly status as a female in the home. She came home from an after-school job one day and her oldest brother was drunk and demanded that she cook for him. She refused. Her father, also a vicious drunk, got up, grabbed her by the poney tail and socked her in the jaw, and threw her on the floor. With her teeth loosened and blood coming from her mouth, she was forced to cook for the drunken brother. Her father quoted scripture during this episode. Marianne left home and never returned and never spoke to her father or brothers again.
She has had her teeth repaired, but her other scars have not healed, you know the ones you get from people who have learned from the Bible to treat women poorly and 'charity begins at home'. Marrianne no longer believed in God, when we talked. After hearing her story, I didn't ask why. She's one of the 'casualties' in the fundamentalist misoginist war against women.
Finally, I never once said women were second class citizens. I bet that gave you a good little rush to type that, though.
Wed Apr 22, 02:57:00 PM 2009
Joe, any woman who would submit to you either in church or the home, would have to be an unintelligent doormat. I am basing this on your nasty, arrogant and insulting comments here.
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