"Preaching is the art of making a sermon and delivering it. Why no, that is not preaching. Preaching is the art of making a preacher, and delivering that. Preaching is the outrush of soul in speech. Therefore, the elemental business in preaching is not with the preaching but with the preacher. It is no trouble to preach, but a vast trouble to construct a preacher. What then, in the light of this is the task of a preacher? (or of anyone sharing his or her faith). Mainly this, the amassing of a great soul so as to have something worthwhile to give. The sermon is the preacher up to date." Bishop Alfred Quayle, American Methodist Bishop (1860-1925)
Tuesday, February 17, 2009
"The Sermon Is The Preacher Up To Date"
"Preaching is the art of making a sermon and delivering it. Why no, that is not preaching. Preaching is the art of making a preacher, and delivering that. Preaching is the outrush of soul in speech. Therefore, the elemental business in preaching is not with the preaching but with the preacher. It is no trouble to preach, but a vast trouble to construct a preacher. What then, in the light of this is the task of a preacher? (or of anyone sharing his or her faith). Mainly this, the amassing of a great soul so as to have something worthwhile to give. The sermon is the preacher up to date." Bishop Alfred Quayle, American Methodist Bishop (1860-1925)
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89 comments:
Judging from the picture, I'd say the successfully made free throw is the shooter up to date!
"Christ is the only King of your studies, but homiletics is the queen." -Robert G. Rayburn
Wow! Awesome quote!
Preacher’s goal:
To motivate the congregation to do what they already know.
Hey, this is going to be so cool if we can have a quote thread today! I'll do a couple because pesky work gets in the way.
1) "Jesus came not to make bad people good but dead people live" (don't know the author).
2) "The highest worship of God is the preaching of the Word" (Luther).
Great quote! I appreciate the picture of Piper because he has done more to teach Christ-centered preaching than anyone else. He has also done more to lead pastors to preach and live for God's glory than anyone in our generation.
Here's a good preaching quote to keep us humble and keep the preaching quotes going: Spurgeon had just preached a sermon and was greeting people after church. A woman said to him, "That was a great sermon today." To which he replied, "Thank you madam, Satan just whispered the same thing to me as I was stepping down from the pulpit".
To preach the Bible as all of God's Word!!!!! This enables the pastor to be up to date.
I had a hard time understanding this post.
But I finally get it.
Amen.
I would modify the title to:
The Sermon Is The Preacher Up To Date [And Right With God].
Did Piper make that shot or did he just strongly desire to make it?
Does he miss free throws or are his shots effectual?
don't tell me let me guess. I believe you are holding up 8 fingers and 2 thumbs. Taking off blindfold, my Lord I am right!!!
I would modify the title to:
The Sermon Is The Preacher Up To Date [does God know him].
If God doesn't know the preacher then he is a worker of iniquity.
Wiki: William Alfred Quayle
Mary Burleson: A Good Sermon
Google Books: Spirit-Led Preaching By Greg Heisler
Google Books: A God Centered Church By Henry T. Blackaby, Melvin D. Blackaby
The main goal of the pastor is not to motivate people that is the work of the Holy Spirit. The main goal of the pastor is to glorify God.
A few gems from Dr. Bryan Chapell, President of Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Mo., and author of the book "Christ-Centered Preaching," the source of the quotes.
"Information without application yields frustration"
"Preachers who cannot answer 'so what?' will preach to a 'who cares?'"
"We are not simply ministers of information; we are ministers of Christ's transformation."
"In the pulpit we are expositors, not authors."
Finally a quote by Spurgeon to round out my comment:
"The [prayer] closet is the best study."
the culture is dark, light emanates from the pulpit
- John Calvin
After a few hours or so of preaching without any music, you might ask the Puritans, "where is the worship in your gatherings?" To which they would reply, "isn't listening to the preaching of God's word worship?"
"Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
If a preacher HAS TO use words, maybe he shouldn't.
(And no, I'm not suggesting sermons shouldn't have words in them).
Nobody has ever been saved by examining and admiring the holiness of a preacher however holy he is. And if there are some who become Christians because of the holiness of pastors then those so called believers are still in condemnation.
Sinners conversed, listened to Jesus' sermons and later they crucified HIM.
Forget about the man, it is THE MESSAGE that is most important.
"I do not fill my sermons with profound words and high-sounding ideas, for fear of diluting the mighty power there is in the simple message of the cross of Christ.”
— St Paul (1 Corinthians 1:17)
Good quotes don't have to come from famous people.
"The Word is truth. All truth has application and if you learn truth you will get to the application.
If you start with application, the truth can be elusive." Brian Lowe, college minister from Mississippi, 2000
"Our duty is to encourage each other to be Godly." Greg Belser, pastor, Morrison Heights BC, Clinton, MS
Christiane,
The use of "quotes" is usually reserved for the reproduction of a set of words in their original form. Yet your quote resembles little the actual words Paul used in 1 Corinthians 1:17. Even the Amplified Bible does not take the liberties which your quote has. Could you please provide a better source? For Paul would not credit for those words.
;)
Wade
“The Sermon?
"From a layman point of view>"
I call it “The time of instruction.”
1) Can he make me believe what he is saying or reading, about the Bible?
2) Can he keep me awake, siting on the edge of the pew waiting for the next word?
3) Can he get his three points in the allotted time? (About 22 mints )
Can he convince me to follow Jesus?
Art
Out of the overflow of the heart! Great stuff.
Bob, while I understand what St. Francis meant about the need for a Christ-centered life ethos, it is imperative that we rescue the impact of his message from the politically correct, seeker-driven, and/or tolerance-mania American experiment that would suppress the presentation of truth in verbal form to spare the hearer offense. How it is used today is not at all biblical as they will never hear unless someone preaches and this is always an out loud event most assuredly preceded by a life presentation of the hope that lies within us. Nonetheless, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation first for the Jew and then for the Gentile; but, words must be used to make it simultaneously meaningful and scandalous. In fact, you could argue that St. Francis’s advice only serves to bring condemnation since specific talk about Jesus is necessary for salvation. Here is an interesting atheist take on proselytizing or its lack thereof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JHS8adO3hM
This is a great link but I do not know how to hyperlink it. I know this moves slightly beyond the sermon event but proclamation in Acts was done more in the marketplace than in the house church where teaching seemed to be the norm.
Kevin:
The Living Bible paraphrased by Ken Taylor. She provided an exact quote of the entire verse which was, of course, appropriate.
If you had googled her quote instead of chastising her first, you--the one who has the calling to be a pastor--could have figured this out without my help.
obligatory wink-smiley incoming: ;)
Greg Harvey
Greg,
Thanks for the "help."
Again though I say...Paul would have not taken credit for those words. And so, ascribing the words to Paul was NOT correct. She could have ascribed them to St. Ken.
How ironic it is that St. Ken did exactly what Paul in the Greek said he would NOT do.
Btw, I am called to be a minister of The Living Word...not The Living Bible.
:)
ml,
I believe I said that sermons should include words, and I don't believe words are never necessary. But it seems to me that some preachers don't preach the gospel with anything BUT words.
Sometimes reading the comment stream on here is like watching an old Batman fight scene (you know, the ones with Adam West):
Kevin Crowder to Christiane: ZING!!
Greg Harvey to Kevin Crowder: POW!!
Kevin Crowder to Greg Harvey: KAZAAM!!
It's a melee where everyone is okay at the end of the day and we'll see them all on the next episode!
Hey, to go along with my last comment, my word verification is now...get ready for the uppercut...
SPLACCAP!!!
"where everyone is okay at the end of the day and "
I am gonna guess that that has something to do with the fact that all the players are brothers and sisters in Christ and really love each other more than their desire to be right. I know this to be true because I love them despite the fact that they are wrong. :)
KMC,
God didn't send me out to collect a following for myself, but to preach the Message of what he has done, collecting a following for him. And he didn't send me to do it with a lot of fancy rhetoric of my own, lest the powerful action at the center—Christ on the Cross—be trivialized into mere words.
The Message
Bob, agreed but I think even Paul said if that is the best he can get he would take it so long as the gospel is preached.
Kevin:
Good one.
Alan Paul,
"οὐ γὰρ ἀπέστειλέν με Χριστὸς βαπτίζειν ἀλλὰ εὐαγγελίζεσθαι οὐκ ἐν σοφίᾳ λόγου ἵνα μὴ κενωθῇ ὁ σταυρὸς τοῦ Χριστοῦ"
Paul
(PS: I hope you ave Greek fonts.)
Well, ok, I guess we can do it the sober, serious way instead:
"ou gar apesteilen me christos baptizein alla euaigelizesthai ouk en sophia logos ina me knothe ho stauros toy christoy"
roughly (transliterating first rather than translating)
not for being sent out (verb form of the word apostle) me Christ (though more probably anointed, though same word) to be baptizing but to be evangelizing not in wisdom of word that not emptying the cross of Christ.
I'm not a greek scholar by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems Paul clearly is presenting "wisdom of word" as having a negative connotation by suggesting it can empty the cross of Christ. Ken Taylor's paraphrase re-expresses what might be thought of as an idiomatic usage (though in this case it can be re-rendered directly into English without TOO much loss of Paul's use of a negative connotation).
Idioms never translate well and are always paraphrased when there isn't a direct translation--idiom to idiom--between the two languages.
I can't speak for Paul, but I can speak for me: I get why Ken Taylor paraphrased that verse that way. And I think a sober Christian pastor should be able to draw the dotted line as well rather than chastise a believer for also using the Living Bible as a source of study in her life. Only a pastor that is more consumed with his own prejudice regarding "paraphrases" and lacks scholarly expertise would create a put down in this situation.
I actually am honored that Christiane/L's continues to join the dialog at Wade's site, and I think it's foolish for someone to make an explicit effort to drive her away as I perceive Kevin's elitism to be. I also wonder what Dianekes is thinking in trying to trivialize my effort to defend Christiane's comment.
I'm sensitive to Kevin's continuing arrogance because it's been on display for a couple of years now. Those who think I'm similarly arrogant to Kevin are factoring in neither my body of comments on Wade's site nor my background in the SBC (which I've discussed in detail in some of my posts.)
I'm not interested in a discussion where we make up silly rules of civility in order to avoid confronting what we clearly see going on. Kevin deserved the rebuke he got from me. I was gentle, trust me.
Greg Harvey
To say preach the Word is just making a statement; no preaching anything yet. To say preach the word and the word alone is just the same. To say preach without word is pious nonsense. Preach the word is about DOCTRINE. Not necessarily Baptist doctrines, but doctrine digged out from the text and proclaimed--it is neither calvinism nor arminianism. It is neither slogans nor maxims. To say, for example "those who pray together stay together" is a nice word but NOT saying Bible doctrine at all. So what DOCTRINE has you all been preaching? I guess most pastors are basically not pastoring but parroting. It is my experience observing them Sunday after Sunday for 4 decades: Parroting is not preaching.
Greg,
I hope you feel better now. Sometimes it is best to just get it out there.....your true feelings that is...
I hardly think L's took my comments as trying to drive her away. I enjoy the flavor she injects into our stuffy Baptist discussions. I trust that if I offended her that she would email me a rebuke in private.
We would not even be discussing this had she not chosen the very verse in the Bible which in my humble opinion, rebukes paraphrases and other such inconcise renderings of the original text.
In fact I find it rather providential that she DID chose that verse.
I am not anti-paraphrase, but I use them ONLY in narrative passage readings. If one desires to discern the text in regard to doctrine of the study of theology, then it is a no brainer that a paraphrase must remain on the shelf.
Lastly, I am not certain that my comment to L's was a rebuke, but a request for information. Paul did NOT write what she ascribed to him. I never checked the Living Bible. I did look at he Amplified and the NLT. Neither took the liberties that St. Ken took.
Anyway, Greggy boy...feel free to email with your hate speech, but don't subject these disciples (and the crowd in earshot) to it.
That is my rebuke to you.
RevKev
To Dienekes: feel free to write the final chapter of dialogue in today's episode. I think however than you may have a hard time caricaturizing the sound of a nuclear bomb.
Hi KEVIN,
I hope you are feeling better. :)
That quote was from a site that had religious cartoons on it.
(Not blasphemous, thank God)
I can't find the site now, as I did not bookmark it, but I found this, which is 'close' in meaning to that quote. Hope this helps:
"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void."
This is from the New American Bible and it definitely is NOT identical in its wording to what I quoted earlier.
You study Greek as it was in the time of the early Christians. What do you think that the traslation from the Greek says about this Scripture passage?
I know you are busy, and probably not feeling well, so only answer if you want to. Love, L's
Ah man, and here I was hoping to see a comment thread of cool quotes.
1) The desire for comfort is an enemy to your soul.
2) If Christianity hasn't changed you then you don't have Christianity.
Anyone else?
3) Christians should be obedient to their Commander. Soldiers don't earn medals for showing up at chow time (i.e., church).
Hi Dienekes,
I'm L's and I'm ALWAYS in trouble.
You wrote:
"Kevin Crowder to Christiane: ZING!!"
Now, you don't know me very well, so I can share that, for some reason, nothing Kevin could ever say to me would hurt my feelings.
I know he is trying so hard to help others and so hard to grow in knowledge and wisdom. How can we not love him for this?
Sure, at times, we can all be a bit abrasive, and I am no exception, but I think we try to allow each other some latitude for personality and for different ways of communicating on this blog.
At the end of the day, all the fighting 'like cats and dogs' melts away when one realizes how very endearing these 'cats and dogs' really are.
And at the end of the day, there is much forgiveness all around, most of the time. (almost always)
Maybe the SBC should be more like us here? Might help some.
Do you remember Wes, and the trouble over his 'time-changing' and how we all reacted UNTIL it came out that he was under strain because of his wife's impending very serious surgery?
Well, when we found out, didn't we all (almost all) forget about Wes' behavior and begin to pray for his wife and for him?
Most people did. :)
Not a such a bad group of bloggers here. Very endearing, they are.
FREE ADVICE:(but read it anyway):
Dienekes, try to jump in there and enjoy the fray.
If you don't agree with us, then howl away,
You will be forgiven at the end of the day.
So you can be yourself, and that's okay.
Love, L's
(writer of dreadful poetry) :)
L's,
I am pleased that you are not angry. I am also pleased that you recognize the overt differences between the Living Bible (I still never looked it up; taking Greg's word) rendering and the NASB rendering.
Thank you for your concern of my health as well. I still have a few pains in my stomach but have today and tomorrow off from school which is a huge relief. My sweet little flock can also see my presently being stretch pretty thin and their prayers as well as your are indeed felt. So thank you.
As to the passage. (And I would enjoy taking a break and giving you my thoughts.) That verse, as well as other verse in Scripture, means zip by itself. So, in context her is my thought.
Paul proceeds verse 17 with a discussion of divisions in the church (all the saints) at Corinth. You told me earlier that Peter and Paul were on the same team. While this is true, it is also true that they had somewhat different ecclesiological views. Paul was a Reformed Baptist Revivalist, and Peter was a Deep Water Presbyterian Bishop of the High Order. Apollos on the other hand was the Apostolic Vicar of the First Baptist Orthodox Jewish Synagogue of Corinth.
So it stands to reason that the people began to choose sides. Based on what do you ask? Based on the personality of the preacher. But, Paul is NOT admonishing the preacher in this case. He is admonishing the saints at Corinth.
"say the same thing"
"let there be no divisions"
"be united"
Then he goes on in verse 17 to tell us that it is not the man who baptizes us that should gain our allegiance. Nor is the preacher who tickles our ears. But it is power of the cross that saves (v.18).
Paul desire NOT to use words of [earthly] wisdom is in no way in conflict with our responsibility to "compell" the lost to enter the Kingdom. It IS however an admonition to not add to or take away form the text. To hide behind the cross and exposit the Word by the power of the Spirit.
"Man's wisdom is damnable." (Paraphrase of St. Paul (v. 19)
"God's foolishness saves." (Paraphrase of St. Paul (v. 25)
In short? The "wisdom of man" is NOT one of those "possible means."
© 2009 RevKev
Dear Greg,
Thank you for your kind remarks, but please know that Kevin is very special to me. I believe he is 'on a journey' and like all of us, is a 'work in progress'.
Kevin has challenged me to be more accepting of others and to widen my own understanding of how others see the Christian faith. For this, I am very grateful to him.
As for how I see Kevin,
I see beyond any limits of Kevin's seeming 'abrasiveness'
to something within him
that loves Christ more. L's
"Focusing on the significance of a text should never lead to proposing a new meaning of the text that is not actually taught in Scripture. To do otherwise is to risk the loss of authority."
-Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.
John Daly,
I am not sure if he originally came up with your first quote, but I heard that out of the mouth of Ravi Zacharias.
Matt
Thanks to ‘Thy Peace’, on Mary Burleson’s blog is this quote:
What is Preaching?
"Preaching is the art of making a sermon and delivering it. Why no, that is not preaching.
Preaching is the art of making a preacher, and delivering that.
Preaching is the out rush of soul in speech. Therefore, the elemental business in preaching is not with the preaching but with the preacher.
It is no trouble to preach, but a vast trouble to construct a preacher.
What then, in the light of this is the task of a preacher? (or of anyone sharing his or her faith).
Mainly this, the amassing of a great soul so as to have something worthwhile to give. The sermon is the preacher up to date."
Bishop Alfred Quayle
American Methodist Bishop
(1860-1925)
If the preacher doesn’t live his sermon, it falls on deaf ears.
Great quote.
I recently checked from the MBU library the 2 volume Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin in an effort to begin reading the work in its entirety this year. I discovered a gem at the end of this edition. "One Hundred Aphorisms, Containing, within a Narrow Compass, the Substance and Order of the Four Books of the Institutes..." These furnished by the Rev. William Pringle of Auchterarder.
While I cannot quote them all, let me share #1:
"The True wisdom of man consists in the knowledge of God the creator and Redeemer."
Happy Midweek Services to all!
© 2009 RevKev
Greg Harvey,
"I also wonder what Dianekes is thinking in trying to trivialize my effort to defend Christiane's comment."
Apologies, I meant it as a good-natured tongue-in-cheek jab; although I see what you mean. I receive your rebuke. I also agree wholeheartedly with your following comment:
"I'm not interested in a discussion where we make up silly rules of civility in order to avoid confronting what we clearly see going on."
Christiane: I also appreciate your contributions (very much so), and I didn't think Kevin would run you off (if he were trying).
Kevin Crowder et al.: Last lines to today's episode:
Robin to Batman: "Holy darkening skies, Batman, it's quarter-after-five!! Peace out, I'm headed to the Bat-Cave."
Christiane,
I read earlier that you child is in the USCG. Both my boys are Coast, with one still have USCG experience. My youngest was search and rescue and my eldest is an IT specialist.
Thanks for sharing this info.
Hi JON ESTES,
I know you are proud of your two boys. You have a right to proud.
Everytime I think about my Coastie son, I smile. L's
Matt,
That's the trouble sometimes with quotes, they get borrowed so much you never know who to credit.
"A wordly Christian? Might as well have a heavenly devil."
--Adrian Rodgers
A LITTLE R'ELEPHANT HUMOR
AT THE END OF THE DAY :)
Was reading concerning 'preaching' and found this from an Episcopal student at Yale Divinity School who had known Henri Nouwen.
" . . I enjoyed gaining knowledge about God through elaborate mental schemes. But I still wanted to know God in a way that went beyond verbal paradox, in a way that a hand brushes another hand in the dark.
And Henri made this possible.
I am not quite sure how he did, except that it was a gift of the Holy Spirit.
He succeeded partly because he did not fear simplicity and repetition.
Instead of laminating new layers of clever interpretation on top of each other, he presented the Gospel as simply as possible. . .
The spiritual life was lived With Open Hands.
Prayer was not a matter of mind but The Way of the Heart.
Little Dutch-isms popped into Henri's speech and writing all the time.
In his preaching about Jesus' time in the desert, Henri often described the three temptations as the temptation to be powerful, the temptation to be spectacular, and the temptation to be relevant.
He always pronounced it with a great rolling Dutch r and soft v--rrrrrrrrellephant.
He told me about a time he had been giving this talk to several hundred people in a large hall with a poor sound system.
Afterwards, as often happened, people rushed to speak to him. One woman, visibly moved, came up to him and said,
"Oh, Father Nouwen, thank you for those spiritual insights. You know, honestly, I had never thought about it before, but as you spoke your words pierced my heart. You are absolutely right. I do indeed feel the temptation to be an elephant!"
"The Lord has turned all our sunsets into sunrise."
~Clement of Alexandria
I summarize and amplify the quote in the post by the Bishop to say that preaching is relational. The preacher spends time with God in the Word and in prayer. The Holy Spirit enables and empowers the preacher to proclaim the excellencies of God.
Furthermore, I believe an effective preacher has a repoire with the audience that is enhanced by authentic relationships that he/she has cultivated. To quote the motto of North Carolina, Esse quam videri … “To Be Rather than to Seem.”
Horizontal and vertical relationships indeed nurture a rich soul that has something to give to a hungry, lost, seeking world.
Today, I was listening to Pastor Wade's sermon on Gossip - Pierces of Swords or Reckless Words: GOSSIP Speech, July 20, 2008.
Very convicting. I am normally very slow when I grasp truths and I need to listen more than once (actually many times) for the truths to sink in. I am almost like the passage in James 1:22-24.
Pastor Wade has done a very good series called The Long Reach of Your Speech. They are about 20 sermons. The one about Gossip can be listened to either the mp3 (audio) or the video.
If you watch the video, the sermon is from 31:48 to 55:16. There is also an interesting segment about Paul Young (Shack) at 17:47 to 19:21.
I thought that given the name calling by BI folks, that this series would be very timely.
Also, Pastor Wade posted the links for Hardball Religion and excerpt, at the top of the blog.
RevKev,
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.
1 Timothy 5:23 (King James Version)
Cheers, Junk!
Rex Ray said: "Preacher’s goal: To motivate the congregation to do what they already know."
Jeff said: "The main goal of the pastor is not to motivate people that is the work of the Holy Spirit. The main goal of the pastor is to glorify God."
Jeff, your point is right on, but it's the goal of all Christians, not just the pastor. And Rex Ray was specifying the goal of the "preacher." I'm guessing he is narrowing the goal of the specific task that "preaching" itself must accomplish by the pastor or a guest preacher.
The first half of Rex Ray's statement is true, while the latter half may or may not be true depending on the individual. Rex Ray is correct in saying that a preacher's main goal is the proclaim God's word to sinners to cause/motivate them to repent of their sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
However, in the latter half of Rex Ray's statement, he is badly assuming that every church attender listening to the preaching of God's word "already knows" who God is, who they are, who Christ is, and what they must do in response.
Richard Baxter, in Reformed Pastor, lists 5 categories of the spiritual state that a preacher needs to preach to. Rex Ray mentions one of those five.
Will, apparently you are struggling with some practical implications of Calvinism. Heb 8:11
You assume that disciples are made not born. Reneneration is a subconscious experience for the least to the greatest, whether infant, imbecile or adult. converts are not won, taught or persuaded. They know the Lord because that understanding has been written on their hearts.
Unlike the song we sing, we know how the Spirit moves, we just don't know when or who he moves upon.
Preachers are killing the sheep with excessive exposition and too little exhortation. The minister of music does most of the exhorting through music and that is not altogether biblical. Pastors need to let the Holy Spirit do more teaching and encourage believers to hear. Pastors need to do some listening themselves!
Autonomy Schmonomy
I would argue that exposition that doesn't exhort is not exposition at all.
The exhortation is the application part of the sermon. Exhortation does not have to be a finger pointing command, but an encouraging reminder of the truths presented in the text. It is not the job of the preacher to change the actions of people. The aim of the sermon need only be the aim of the text if we are truly to "Preach the Word." Application will come through proper homiletics and most of all through the Holy Spirit. The Spirit can move in hearts even as a result of the worst sermon ever preached.
We should be careful as pastors not to "exhort" to get an emotional response.
© 2009 RevKev
"The sermon is the preacher up to date."
then why does it feel more like, the preacher behind schedule.
Robert Hutchinson, LOL :)
WatchingHIStory,
Very well put.
Wade - Just read an excerpt from your book and ran across this quote:
"... that is, until January 2005, when a majority of the trustees of the SBC International Mission Board voted for my removal."
That should not be January 2005, should it? Are you aware of that incorrect date? I hope that is only an internet misprint.
missshuary,
Thanks.
That has been corrected. It was January 2006.
Wade
WatchingHISstory said: Will, apparently you are struggling with some practical implications of Calvinism. Heb 8:11
You assume that disciples are made not born. Reneneration is a subconscious experience for the least to the greatest, whether infant, imbecile or adult. converts are not won, taught or persuaded. They know the Lord because that understanding has been written on their hearts.
Preachers are killing the sheep with excessive exposition and too little exhortation. The minister of music does most of the exhorting through music and that is not altogether biblical. Pastors need to let the Holy Spirit do more teaching and encourage believers to hear. Pastors need to do some listening themselves!
To WatchingHisStory: In terms of General revelation, your point is correct. In terms of Special revelation, it is not. Which is why I said that Rex Ray's latter half of his statement can be either true or false, depending on the context.
Romans 1 is clear that man has prior knowledge of the General revelation of God. However, the role of the preacher is to deliver the Special revelation of Christ, which man has no prior knowledge.
But even before your point can even be heard, I would recommend that you avoid using an accusatory opening of "Will, apparently you are struggling..." when there is no struggle on my part. If you feel an angle or approach or implication needs to be addressed that hasn't been thus far, then do so without the flames.
"Will, respectfully, apparently you are struggling..."
What in the world does the preacher preaching special revelation to a sinner have anything to do with regeneration?
The sinner does not need any knowledge to be regenerated, born again.
If you are a preacher I know that hurts your feelings but you are not needed. God needs us all to be vital witnesses unto His Son, in the power of His Spirit.
A preacher trying to convert the sinners is just insulting the Spirit of Grace. A preacher should just do better what all of us are expected to do. That is why you got all that fancy education!
Sadly the greatest hinderance to soul winning takes place in our pulpits!
WHS,
You said: "Sadly the greatest hindrance to soul winning takes place in our pulpits!"
While I agree in spirit, do you not think a re-phrase-ment is needed here? I though souls did not need "winning."
A second question has to do with preaching the Gospel and its relevance to regeneration. I agree in this point. However, it is the very flame the Spirit breaths upon for conversion. "How can they believe except they hear...". People need head knowledge so the Spirit can convert it into heart knowledge. This is where the saints of God come in. Sure, God does not NEED us, but He HAS chosen to USE us in this capacity, thus it becomes necessary--not of our own design and formula, but by listening to the man from Macedonia calling us to the lost sheep of the Israel of God. The Father elects to regeneration, the Spirit Regenerates at the appointed time. The Preacher preaches (when and where and what time the Spirit leads). Then the Spirit converts the soul. Through all of this, man "wins" no one. lol How arrogant of some to think they can do the job of the Spirit.
K
K
My specific thought was that it is the Holy Spirit that does the regenerating (soul winning)
If the preacher intrudes on that process thinking that he participates in regeneration and that it is a synergistic work and his part is important then he may insult, do despite to the Spirit of Grace.
Now on one hand the sovereign Spirit is not subject to the faults of men but He can be grieved and there are consequences to greiving Him. You don't want to insult the one who seals you to the day of redemption. The free will message is a grief to the Spirit. When this is preached from the pulpit and crowds of people hear it it compounds the greiveousness to the Spirit. People hear this "stuff" (stuff is the word used by Steve Gaines at Bellevue to refute irresistible grace - so I use it to refute Arminianism) and they BELIEVE THIS STUFF!!
Now the Holy Spirit as I believe it He goes right ahead and regenerates who and when He chooses inspite of the faulty message but His grief does not go unattended.
Regeneration is at an unconscious level however the following obedience of the regenerate to inquire of the "men and brethern what must we do?" surfaces to the conscious level.
This is where Roman 10 as you say: "How can they believe except they hear...". People need head knowledge so the Spirit can convert it into heart knowledge." This is the conscious participation of the regenerate in repenting and being baptized inorder to receive an answer of a good conscience toward God.
Repentance and baptism does not have anything to do with regeneration but they do have a part with the regenerate receiving remission of sins in water baptism.
If the Spirit is grieved then He may withold the true understanding of this to the preacher, since his message is faulty then what he says to the regenerate is faulty as well. Like the rich young ruler and Nicodemus they had a faulty understanding of the message and when Jesus talked with them after the facts they could not receive it. He loved them but it would take some straightening to set them straight. If you have attained prominence and wealth after accepting a faulty messages then you are seared from the truth.
The only hope is that with God all things are possible but men have not helped but hindered. Is that clearer? I hope so!
WatchingHISstory, well, since you're going down this path, I'll then use the same rhetoric on you.
It is very, very obvious that you are the one struggling with biblical understanding of regeneration, the role of preaching, and what the original statement was about.
You seem to have a very low view of the role of preachers, whereas God has a very high view of preachers.
- Paul's charge to Timothy is to "preach."
- How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
I would strongly advise that you stop where you're at now. You're sidetracking from the original statement made by Rex Ray, you've insinuated that I'm struggling on something that isn't there, whereas it is you who is struggling to understand the role, purpose and calling of a preacher.
will, will, will
"You seem to have a very low view of the role of preachers, whereas God has a very high view of preachers."
That is an emotional statement made by an angry person!!!
God has a high view of common people, oppressed, poor people and he send servants to help them, preachers. If the preacher oppresses and takes the poor man's money then there will be a day when God will beat the crap out of preachers! More stripes to thoes who intentionally oppress and less stripes to thoes who do it unintentionally.
Preachers do not participate in the regeneration of a soul.
WatchingHISstory, your view is not that of Calvinism but Hypercalvinism.
Will
how so? My view is high Calvinism.
I am opposed to hypo-Calvinism or any view that embraces any free offer to the sinner. Is that hyper-Calvinism?
Will
When did Saul, Apostle Paul, become regenerate? At birth or on the road to Damascus?
WatchingHISstory, neither.
- Saul/Paul was predestined/elected before the foundations of the earth (Eph 1:4-5)
- He was convicted and called at the road to Damascus to preach(Gal 1:15-16)
- He was regenerated from hearing the Gospel preached to him by Ananias (Acts 9:10-18)
If you disagree that it was the preaching of God's word to open the spiritual eyes of Saul through regeneration, then what was the purpose of God sending Ananias?
But don't take this account as an isolation. Look at other accounts of regeneration through the preaching of God's word.
- In Acts 8:26-38, the Ethiopian eunuch was reading the Bible alone, and Philip has to preach to him (v.32-33). If God regenerates without the need of man but by Spirit alone, why send Philip to preach to him?
- Acts 16, the Philippian jailer was regenerated through Paul's preaching.
Further:
- Paul says that he wasn't called into ministry to merely baptize, but to preach (1 Cor 1:17)
- It is the "preaching" of Christ that is the power and wisdom of God (1 Cor 1:24)
- Many people who heard the Gospel preached to them believed (Acts 4:4)
Now, Titus 3:5 does say that salvation is not on the basis of any deeds of righteousnesss by man, but by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. What this is saying is that man's work alone does not regenerate anyone, but the Spirit of God. However, other parts of Scripture (e.g. above) make it clear that the chosen method that God regenerates is by the Spirit alone THROUGH the preaching of His word.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
According to the Bible, Saul of Tarsus was an elect sinner. Saul, or Paul, as he was later called, writes about this in Galatians 1:13-15 And in Ephesians 1:4 Paul writes, “For he chose us in Christ before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.” Paul was chosen before the creation of the world and set apart from birth by God.
You say "He was regenerated from hearing the Gospel preached to him by Ananias" (Acts 9:10-18)
Does it puzzle you that Christ addressed him on the road to Damascus? "Saul, Saul" I don't believe that the spiritually dead are alive to Him.
I think no one understood better than himself that his regeneration was not by any work of righteousness at all. Regeneration does not separate us from the presence of sin, glorification does. A regenerate person needs to exercise his freed will (unregenerate people have no free will) by repentance, exercising faith and being baptized. This takes a preacher. How shall they hear without a preacher.
The regenerate Saul did not know what to do. He needed instruction in the ways of Christ.
Do not think that Ananias had anything to do with his regeneration. That idea is absurb.
Titus 3:5 Do you think that a man can speak words toward regeneration? Can a man lay hands on someone and they are born again?
Being struck down from a horse was not regeneration it was a conversion but not regeneration. Paul himself seems to think that it was at his birth.
It has proximity to John the Baptist regeneration at birth. He leaped in his mother's womb, being filled with the Spirit.
The Phillipian jailer was born again before he left the prison. He followed Paul and Silas' instructions to obey Christ.
Regeneration precedes conviction, repentance, conversion, baptism.
"You must be born again to see the kingdom of God."
Regeneration starts prior to man's involvement, but doesn't end until the Gospel has been heard.
It can be argued that Saul's regeneration began at the road to Damascus, but it wasn't complete until he heard the Gospel message preached to him by Ananias.
Romans 10:17!
Will
we both agree: it is an argument.
Charles
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace
Will, does this passage have a meaning to you? What does it mean to be called by His grace?
WatchingHisStory: This is getting tedious for several reasons:
1. You throw out rhetorical questions without first answering my questions. If you don't recall the questions I asked, reread my post(s) to you.
2. Your tone from the start has been combative than congenial. I could be wrong. Maybe you are congenial. But the impression from the first posting by you is more of a desire to "fight," of which I have not the time, energy or desire. I'm moving on to more fruitful discussions.
My recommendation for you: go to church, become a faithful member, and sit under some strong biblical preaching of hearing God speak to you (e.g. convict you, exhort you, encourage you, rebuke you, instruct you, reprove you, comfort you, etc.) through the man He has anointed and the church has endorsed known as "the preaching pastor/elder."
WatchingHisStory: But let me guess: you're not a faithful member of any church or attend any worship service to hear the preaching of God's word, are you?
I'm guessing based on your low view of "preaching and preacher" and also on your profile bio. If I'm wrong about my guess, then sorry. But I'm pretty sure I'm right. In which case, you got a bigger issue to settled about why you're not a faithful member of a church than talking about why preachers and preaching are outmoded.
Will
Well, you are wrong about me. I attend First Baptist Church Collierville, Tennessee and I am active in a Bible Fellowship class. I am involved in a homeless outreach, Union Mission (Bible Fellowship Class) and have successfully gotten work associates involved with us.
I have been to our pastor on many occasions to discuss my views and while we disagree somewhat we have a good relationship.
When the altar is given I have to bow my head and pray that the non-regenerate will not respond and not be confused.
If I am combative, which I can be it is because of my persuasion and you may be intimidated. We don't have to continue discussions, however I would like to continue.
I don't believe that preaching is outmoded but unbiblical.
I'm not willing to go further with you not because of intimidation, but because you're rude and arrogant.
As for claiming that preaching is unbiblical, you'll have to answer up to God as to claim why you refused to listen to His commands delivered to you through His anointed prophet/preacher. You've been warned. Let your arrogance or combativeness or intimidation or whatever you wish to think of yourself do what it wishes to turn the deaf ear.
By the way, I don't think I'll consider you a "brother-in-Christ" considering a lack of a repentant and humble spirit. The first mark of a Christian is repentance ahd humility, of which you have well shown yourself to be completely deficient.
You hold a very high view of preachers and preaching.
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