There was one area of Dr. Allen's presentation, however, that did cause me some sadness. Dr. Allen felt it necessary to call several individuals "hyper-calvinists," including modern Baptist James White, 18th Century Baptist theologian John Gill (whom Charles Spurgeon called "my mentor in Israel"), and George Ella.
Ella was listed as a "hyper-calvinist," along with about a dozen other individuals in one of Dr. Allen's handouts. I thought Dr. Steve Lempke of New Orleans, who followed Dr. Allen in the program, was dead on when he made the observation, "I am not sure that there is such a thing as a living hyper-calvinist. I find that those who call others hyper-calvinists have simply run into people more calvinistic than they are." The reason the "hyper-calvinist" label bothers me is because those who use it seem to believe that the alleged hyper-calvinist is not preaching the gospel, has no concern for the lost, and is not orthodox in his view of salvation.Dr. George Ella, approaching 70 years of age, is a member of our church. He is a prolific author, having written many excellent biographies of 18th century saints,
including Augustus Toplady, William Huntington and John Gill. The first time I met George was at the Oklahoma City Airport when I picked him up after flying in from Germany. He was crying. I asked him if everything was all right. He explained that he had spent the previous five hours sharing Christ with the young lady seated next to him. His soul was burdened for her salvation. George spent years among the Lap Indians of Finland, sharing Christ while serving as a missionary to the Laps. These Laps, the poorest of the poor and the outcasts of society in Finland, grew to love George. Dr. Ella learned their language, lived with them in their tent villages, ate their food, and became their father in the faith. This is the same George Ella, the linguist, who learned nearly 20 languages in order to share the gospel of Jesus Christ with people in their native tongue. This is the man Dr. Allen called a hyper-calvinist. If Ella is a hyper-calvinist, may God give the Southern Baptist Convention more of them.I think that if it is the desire to build bridges in the Southern Baptist Convention, it would probably be best to avoid tagging people who believe differently from us with "labels" other than those things which Christ calls them. They are forgiven, they are brothers, they are His people, they are children of the King. My brother in Christ, Dr. David Allen, may disagree with Dr. George Ella on issues of the atonement, but it might be helpful if we avoided labeling people "hyper-calvinists" and simply discuss the issues of disagreement.
In His Grace,
Wade
218 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 218 of 218PREDESTINATION AND CALVINISM
Calvin extended and refined this idea, stating that God not only knew what choice every person would make in his life, God had actually decided what choices everyone would make. Individuals had no choice in this. Human Free Will was only an illusion. Therefore God had decided that certain people would live a Christian Life and be saved. He had also decided that the rest would sin and be eternally damned. If you were predestined to be damned there was nothing you could do about it. God's will was Sovereign. All Humans were "totally depraved" and unable to do anything to help themselves. God's salvation was a gift of Grace that He bestowed on who He chose. Christ died, not to save everyone, but only to save a chosen, predestined "elect."
WHY DID CALVIN NEED SUCH AN EXTREME THEOLOGY?
He needed to deal with a lot of problems left over by Luther. If doing Good Works couldn't save us, what was the merit in a simple Act of Faith? And anyway wasn't making an Act of Faith, also a Good Work? What about people who claimed to be Born Again, and then did evil? Systematic academic theologians demanded a coherent, logical solution. Calvin based his system on God's Grace.
The Elect were saved, solely by God's grace (or favour), not by their own choice. An Act of Faith was needed, but God had decided through irresistable Grace to make the Elect perform this. Not everyone who made the Act of Faith was among God's Elect, so some people who accepted Jesus would still be damned along with everyone else who was not among the Elect. God had therefore, according to Calvin, created millions of people who would be damned for eternity through no fault of their own. The whole system was logically more watertight than Luther's but at the penalty of being incredibly harsh.
BUT SURELY THIS THEORY DIDN'T GAIN WIDE ACCEPTANCE?
Curiously enough, it did. Calvinist theology spread rapidly, and became the basis for many protestant denominations. These included the Swiss Reformed Church, The Dutch Reformed Church, The English Puritans, The French Huguenots, The Presbyterian and Congregational Churches, The Baptist Churches, and through them the Pentecostal Churches and Assemblies of God.
Jansenism, a Catholic form of Calvinism, was condemned as heretical in 1653.
In the 1600s, a Dutch cleric, Jacobus Arminius, rebelled against the system and proposed a modification, stating that God wished to save us all, not only the Elect, and that individuals could choose to accept or reject salvation. This Arminianism was condemned as Catholicism by the Synod of Dort in 1619, and most of the main Reformed denominations stuck with hardline Calvinism until the 1800s. Many adherents continued to suffer anxiety and doubt, not knowing whether they were truly among the elect or not. Most Churches told members that if they kept the Commandments and lived reasonably well, they were probably among the saved.
THE HIDDEN DOCTRINE
In the freer religious environment of the 1800s, Calvinism began to come under heavy and sustained attack from inside and outside the Protestant Churches. People accused it of being a cruel and unjust doctrine. The idea that God would create people, make them behave in a certain way, and then condemn them to everlasting torture for behaving in that way, was seen as being contrary to everything the Bible taught. Many denominations quietly dropped Calvinism at this time, and moved back towards Arminianism. The Church of England, and some national Reformed Churches did this. Other churches like the Congregational, Methodist, Baptist and Presbyterian Churches split into Calvinist and Arminian branches. Others remained wholly Calvinist.
DECEPTION
However many Calvinist Churches began to hide their Calvinist doctrines from the majority of their Congregations. The doctrines were no longer preached to ordinary worshippers, although they were still held. This continues to this day. Calvinist doctrines on Election and the lack of Free Will are very hard to explain to modern believers, so many Calvinist Churches just don't bother. They hold evangelistic meetings and invite people to accept Jesus and "be saved" by Faith. They tell people that they are "saved" but fail to reveal the true Calvinist theology of the denomination, for fear this will frighten away new converts. For under Calvinist theology, the new converts' salvation is not as certain as they are told it is. This is a form of deception practised by many Calvinist groups, and it is often hard to find what the true beliefs of many Protestant groups are. If a church says it believes in Salvation by Grace Alone through Faith, it may well hold Calvinist beliefs.
SO WHAT'S WRONG WITH CALVINISM?
To many, Calvinism goes against the whole flow of New Testament teaching. It substitutes a vengeful, capricious and merciless God, for the loving Father of Jesus's teachings. The price paid for unravelling the tangled knot of Lutheran logic is too high. In order to avoid the need for Good Works, the Gospel has been distorted out of all recognition. Jesus's teachings make little sense under Calvinism, and make no sense at all if we do not have Free Will to act on them. In addition Calvinism has led to..
1. Fatalism. What is the point of evangelising, if it is already decided who is to be saved? Similarly, if a person is starving or in need, God has put him in that position, so there is no need to do anything about it.
2. A Tribal Consciousness. Groups and Nationalities began to see themselves as "Chosen by God". Other peoples, not being so "chosen", could be treated harshly. Calvinist groups are seen as exacerbating divisions in places like Ireland, the USA and South Africa. (See: By their Fruits)
WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE?
As already stated, Calvinism seems directly opposed to the whole tenor of Jesus's teaching on Good Works (See: Faith or Works) and Jesus's constant exhortations to us to make the right choices. Why should He have spent so much of his ministry on this sort of teaching if we did not have the Free Will to profit by it? This is one reason why Free Will has always been so important to the historic Church, and why our deeds, (or works) are vitally important.
We can see that the Bible also denies the idea of irresistible grace, showing that our Free Will does affect its action:
2 Cor 6: 1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. (NIV).
The Bible shows clearly that God wants everyone to be saved, and that He has not predestined anyone for damnation.
1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2 Peter 3; 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (NIV).
1 John 2: 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. (NIV).
ETERNAL SECURITY
The counterpoint doctrine is the idea of the Eternal Security of the Believer, also known as "Once Saved Always Saved". This is an ideal taught by many Protestant churches. Believers are told that once they have been saved, they are "eternally secure" and that nothing can then make them lose that salvation.
Is This Supported by Scripture?
Matthew 24.10-13 And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. And because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.
John 15.10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father' s commands and remain in his love
1 Timothy 4 1 The Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith
Romans 11.21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
This is written to believers.
Galatians 6.7-8 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Philippians 3.11-14: in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 1 18-19: Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith.
Hebrews 6: 4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.
2 Peter 2 20: If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
Again, this passage is clear. Salvation can be lost.
2 Peter 3.16 Paul's letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
The Christian's position is not so "secure" that it cannot be lost.
Revelation 3.5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Scripture repeatedly makes clear that one has to overcome in order to achieve the promise, and that a Christian can lose their crown of salvation. The Teaching of "Eternal Security", Assurance of Salvation or "Once Saved Always Saved", is therefore unscriptural and extremely dangerous, since it can lead people into a false sense that they are guaranteed salvation whatever else they do.
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)
I. All those whom God hath predestined unto life, and those only, he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time,effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state ofsin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salva-tion by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds, spiritually andsavingly, to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renew-ing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them tothat which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing byhis grace.
II. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man; who is alto-gether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed bythe Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, andto embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.
III. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit, who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth. So also are all other elect per-sons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the min-istry of the Word.
IV. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common opera-tions of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, andtherefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever,be they never [sic.] so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess;
The Westminster Confession of Faith (1646)
A NEW NEW TESTAMENT.
“God does ninety-nine percent of it but you still must do that last one percent.” -Billy Graham
“God does ninety-nine percent of it but you still must do that last one percent.” -Billy Graham
Thank you. Watching History.
I had thought that Christians had lost their MINDS.
I can trust Billy Graham.
He would not pander to the far-far right wing, the racists, the Anti-Semites, or the baby-burners.
Thank God for Billy Graham.
If the SBC could respect him, that would be a good thing for the Church.
I'll bet that BG wife did not agree with him!!
She was raised in the far right wing of the Church. She was presbyterian!
So which is it BG or the Bible?
I'll go with the Bible.
how can I know when I am dealing with the angry anon?
just id yourself angry so I'll know
Watching History appears to be the angry one whenever ANYONE chooses to believe differently from her.
I heard an evangelist use two analogies to describe what happens in our redemption. He said sin has such a strong hold on us, a stranglehold, that it’s like a person who can’t swim, who falls overboard in a raging sea, and he’s going under for the third time and only the tops of his fingers are still above the water; and unless someone intervenes to rescue him, he has no hope of survival, his death is certain. And unless God throws him a life preserver, he can’t possibly be rescued. And not only must God throw him a life preserver in the general vicinity of where he is, but that life preserver has to hit him right where his fingers are still extended out of the water, and hit him so that he can grasp hold of it. It has to be perfectly pitched. But still that man will drown unless he takes his fingers and curls them around the life preserver and God will rescue him. But unless that tiny little human action is done, he will surely perish.
The other analogy is this: A man is desperately ill, sick unto death, lying in his hospital bed with a disease that is fatal. There is no way he can be cured unless somebody from outside comes up with a cure, a medicine that will take care of this fatal disease. And God has the cure and walks into the room with the medicine. But the man is so weak he can’t even help himself to the medicine; God has to pour it on the spoon. The man is so sick he’s almost comatose. He can’t even open his mouth, and God has to lean over and open up his mouth for him. God has to bring the spoon to the man’s lips, but the man still has to swallow it.
Now, if we’re going to use analogies, let’s be accurate. The man isn’t going under for the third time; he is stone cold dead at the bottom of the ocean. That’s where you once were when you were dead in sin and trespasses and walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air. And while you were dead hath God quickened you together with Christ. God dove to the bottom of the sea and took that drowned corpse and breathed into it the breath of his life and raised you from the dead. And it’s not that you were dying in a hospital bed of a certain illness, but rather, when you were born you were born D.O.A. That’s what the Bible says: that we are morally stillborn.
RC Sproul "The Pelagian Captivity"
Calvinism goes into a realm of human philosophy.
It is NOT a Bible doctrine, but a system of human philosophy appealing somewhat to the proud mind.
Consider first that what we are discussing is called "Calvinism." Dr. Loraine Boettner says, "It was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name". How strange that, after 1,400 years of Christianity, practically no one had understood the Bible to teach Calvin's doctrine of predestination until he formed the philosophy!
What a strangely hidden doctrine, that New Testament Christians could go for nearly for 1400 years until the days of the reformers, when Calvin developed the doctrine fully.
It is obvious that great groups of Christians have always found salvation by grace in the Bible. The Bible is very clear on that. It is also clear on every other great doctrine.
A doctrine cannot be unscriptural without doing actual harm.
God's way is right; man's way is wrong.
And when the doctrine on the matter of salvation is wrong, it is certain to hinder the cause of Christ.
So the human philosophy of Calvinism, the doctrine that every detailed event that happens in all the world was foreordained of God and had to happen, every sin was ordained of God, every act of a Christian or of a sinner, and that everyone was either foreordained to be saved before he was born, without having any free choice in the matter, or was damned without any possibility of his being saved-that doctrine is hurtful and has done great harm to the cause of Christ.
no broader stroke of a brush than I have ever read!
anon said: "A doctrine cannot be unscriptural without doing actual harm."
That statement covers the situation that Adrian Rogers left at Bellevue Baptist for Steve Gaines to straighten out. My insistence is that Rogers' unscriptural doctrine left a harmful trail. God took him on to heaven and Steve Gaines has to straighten the mess.
Oh what a tangled web Arminians leave!
Thaks for that closing thought, anon now Wade do your deleting.
Angry Anonymass,
I told you if you wanted to dialogue about scripture, I'm all in. You are choosing not to do so, and it's your loss. Besides, even if I wanted to continue with you, I couldn't. I have no idea what your last comment means or what it even says?
You said, "YOU COULD NOT EVEN ANSWER FOR YOUR OWN NAME, SUCH IS YOUR TESTIMONY."
Huh?
First of all your yelling with all caps which is evidence of your anger. Secondly, it's not even a grammatically correct sentence. But I'm sure someone as "studious" as you knew that.
So, since you are not talking scripture, you are not talking to me. I'm all out.
I'll leave you with this though.
When you die and if you get to heaven, let God get a word in before you start telling Him how awesome you are and what a great decision you made.
Oh, and be sure and look for me among all your self-glorification. I'll be the one weeping at His feet because He saved me even though I didn't deserve it and I did nothing to earn it.
What a guy you are!
And what a God I serve!
When I say that all men have a mind which cannot bear to see the sufferings of others, my meaning may be illustrated thus:
even now-a-days, if men suddenly see a child about to fall into a well, they will WITHOUT EXCEPTION experience a feeling of alarm and distress.
They will feel so, not as a ground on which they may gain the favour of the child's parents, nor as a ground on which they may seek the praise of their neighbours and friends, nor from a dislike to the reputation of having been unmoved by such a thing.
In contrast, John Calvin's doctrine of Total Depravity is inhumane. However, rejecting Calvinism and Total Depravity does not mean rejecting the doctrine of Original Sin, "the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam."
Of the first tenet of Calvin's TULIP, the great C.S. Lewis said the following in The Problem of Pain:
"The doctrine of Total Depravity -- when the consequence is drawn that, since we are totally depraved, our idea of good is worth simply nothing -- may thus turn Christianity into a form of DEVIL WORSHIP ... I disbelieve that doctrine partly on the logical ground that if our depravity were total we should not know ourselves to be depraved, and partly because experience shows us much goodness in human nature."
Quote is by C.S. Lewis
"If one emphasizes election over free will, then we deny our responsibility to believe and our responsibility to share the gospel."
We then do NOTHING. nothing.
God does ALL when He chooses us.
You don't need the Bible.
You don't need a Church.
And you sure don't need to tell anyone about Jesus. (Think of all the money that will save you, if you don't have to support missionaries, like 'why bother')
As for helping others? WHY?
Waste of time and money. It's just 'filthy rags' before the Lord.
Shame on you for thinking about it.
I and mine are 'ELECTED' and the hell with the rest of them.
There is NO SALVATION NEEDED for us elect. We've got it made.
What an awesome God we serve!
Get excited.
I'M GLAD I'M SAVED !!!!!!!!!
The rest DESERVE HELL.
"If one emphasizes election over free will, then we deny our responsibility to believe and our responsibility to share the gospel."
We then do NOTHING. nothing.
God does ALL when He chooses us.
You don't need the Bible.
You don't need a Church.
And you sure don't need to tell anyone about Jesus. (Think of all the money that will save you, if you don't have to support missionaries, like 'why bother')
As for helping others? WHY?
Waste of time and money. It's just 'filthy rags' before the Lord.
Shame on you for thinking about it.
I and mine are 'ELECTED' and the hell with the rest of them.
There is NO SALVATION NEEDED for us elect. We've got it made.
What an awesome God we serve!
Get excited.
I'M GLAD I'M SAVED !!!!!!!!!
The rest DESERVE HELL.
FUNDAMENTALISTS AND PREJUDICE
What is the relationship (statistical correlation) between a person who is prejudiced and a person who chooses a fundamentalist religion?
What is there about religiousness that might promote bigotry? Altemeyerand Hunsberger (1992) thought that religious fundamentalism might run with prej-udice.
Such fundamentalism was conceived as being, not so much a set of particular religious beliefs as an attitude toward whatever beliefs one held, for example,that they contain the fundamental, basic, intrinsic, essential, inerrant truth about humanity and deity.
The construct is measured by a 20-item Likert-type scale balanced against response sets:
(e.g.,
A. “God has given humanity a complete, unfailing guide to happiness and salvation, which must be totally followed,”
OR:
B. “No single book of religious teachings contains all the important truths about life”).
Such fundamentalism seems to be the way right-wing authoritarians (Altemeyer 1981,1988, 1996) respond to the religious impulse, and indeed scores on the Religious Fundamentalism scale typically correlate in the .70s with responses to the Right-Wing Authoritarianism.
ANALYSIS: positive correlation exists between fundamentalism and prejudice.
TRANSLATION: A certain personality type will seek a religion or denomination that satisfies his/her psychological need for 'religious response'.
APPLICATION: follow up studies on fundamentalism in Islam and Christianity and Judaism needed to find out 'triggers' for prejudicial treatment of those who are 'different' in any way from the fundamentalist.
Practical applications are unlimited in possibility internationally.
Louis,
If I did not think there were these "all or nothing" BF&M 2000advocates in order for missionary service through the IMB, then I think you might not have heard from me on this in the first place.
Grace,
Benji
P.S. Should those having to sign the confession be allowed to write down their exception(s)?
I heard a seminary professor say that he wanted his daughters to go to heaven but he was not sure if they were “elect”, and therefore it would not be possible for them to be saved. I wanted to blurt out “Why don’t you just win them to Christ and they will be elect!” Which comes to my point, what effect does this doctrine have on those who believe it?
“Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.” (Hebrew 13:9) If it is not of God, it does “not profited”. If you ask them what benefit is there in believing this, they will usually respond by saying, “It’s the truth”, but people on both sides of any argument believe their side is right. But the question remains, how does it profit Christians? If someone believes there is a hell, he is much more likely to get saved, and also be concerned about his loved ones and friends getting saved; but if he does not believe, then “let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.”
Things that are believed have an effect on us, for good if true, and for harm if false. For 40 years I have been asking those who believe this belief, what profit is there in it? The only real answer I have received in all this time was that they say it takes away all pride from man, as he has nothing to do with it, but salvation is already “not of works, lets any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:9) Besides, people can have pride about anything including saying, “I’m elect”. One Christian I knew who came out of Hyper Calvinism told me it appealed to his intellectual pride.
Even those who believe in this doctrine already know there are possible problems (sometimes serious problems) associated with it. It has split more Bible colleges than any teaching I know of! It is also used by many as an excuse for not winning souls. After all, if God wants to save them, they will be saved even if I do nothing, and If God does not choose them for salvation, then according to their belief, no matter what I do they will not be saved. But Paul said, “Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men. For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.” (Acts 20:26-27) Why would Paul say a thing like that if it did not to some degree depend on him? See The Layman's Biblical Handbook http://www.thelaymansbiblicalhandbook.com/predestination.html
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