This is my 670th post at Grace and Truth to You, and unless circumstances warrant an occasional post in the near future, I will be taking a blog sabbatical for at least the next few months. I believe that blogging is here to stay in the Southern Baptist Convention, and unlike some, I think it can be a very beneficial medium. There are three primary reasons for my decision to step aside:(1). I believe the impetus for change in the SBC has begun, and there are others who will be able to carry on the needed dialogue, the exchange of information, and the much needed effort to facilitate increased cooperation among those in the Southern Baptist Convention with diverse backgrounds and theological views. The fact that there are six, maybe seven Presidential candidates for the SBC, all of whom are now focusing on the issues, is enough evidence to me that the stranglehold of a few is over. The more Southern Baptists who are in the mix of leadership, the better.
(2). I am working under deadlines for an additional two books and a contribution to a third. One book, an exposition of Jonah, is almost complete and awaits final edits before it can be published. The second book's manuscript is to be to the publisher by October 15th, 2008, and I must devote my time and energy to complete it. Blogging takes away from the time I need to write that manuscript.
(3). I have lost my enthusiasm for blogging. Either the absence will cause me to enjoy it again, or I will lay it down for good. A decision will be made in October. Again, I believe blogging is beneficial for the SBC when done in the spirit of Christian charity and for the good our cooperative efforts to reach people for Christ.
A couple of final words:
My friend and fellow pastor, Forrest Pollock, along with his 13 year old son Preston, died this past Monday in a plane crash outside Asheville, North Carolina. Both bodies were discovered in the wreckage yesterday. Forrest was born in Oklahoma City and graduated from the University of Oklahoma and became a successful businessman before entering the ministry. His death reminds me of the brevity of one's life and the need to be wise regarding one's time investments. This decision to step aside from blogging is best for me.
I have enjoyed becoming acquainted with many of you over the last two and one half years, and if you happen to be in Indianapolis, Indiana for the Southern Baptist Convention, I would love to have the opportunity to visit with you in person. Update: I would direct your attention to the rewritten Never Take for Granted the Freedom to Dissent
May God bless you, and may God bless the Southern Baptist Convention.
In His Grace,
Wade Burleson
272 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 272 of 272"It's encouraging to see some solid resolutions this year and I hope there are some that pertain to kids actually being allowed to be born."
Yes! As in, please do not vote for a baby killing democrat! Be it resolved that the SBC heaps piles of coal on the baby killing liberals of the democrat party. And be it further resolved, that those SBC'ers who desire to entangle themselves with the evils of such democrats be barred from holding any office or position within the SBC, its entities, or affiliate churches until such time as the Lord changes them or takes them.
Anyone who would vote for a candidate who would cast a vote in favor of allowing a doctor to insert a pair of scissors into the womb and snip the little neck and then suck the whole thing out with a Hoover just needs to be hanged or shot! (Figuratively speaking of course).
In reality, these people should pray for man's vengeance, for the Lord's wrath against such evil will be greater than anything imaginable.
Dick Lamm, former Governor of Colorado gave in my opinion the most thought provoking five minute speech in America in many years. http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/lamm.asp
I’m afraid his eight ways of ‘How to Destroy America’ is too late to stop as one way is shown by the attitudes in joke below:
Blacks boycotted White owned business one weekend.
Boycott declared successful by Blacks noting revenue was down 21%.
Boycott declared successful by Whites noting shoplifting was reduced 91%.
pwrI finally found proof that Barack Obama is a Muslim plant.
If you add the numbers in his birthday: 8/4/1961......8+4+1+9+6_1=29.....2+9=11 "The Day"
Now for the month....Obama was born in August, he was married to Michelle (whose birth date: 1/17/1964 also equals 11) in October, so the best month to bomb the US is right between the two most important dates of the Muslim plant: September
Obama's Birthday: August 4, 1961
Obama's Bombday: September 11, 2001
Obama's Wed. Aniv: October 18, 1992
Now here is where it really gets scary: From 1961 to 2001 is 31 years: 3+1 is 4...the month of my birth.....from 1992 to 2001 is 9 years.....the day of my birth. So it must have been known that I would discover the evil Muslim plant.
I call it "The Obama Code"
Beware of this evil
Hi all, (wtreat@centurytel.net here)
I have been pondering for some time if I wanted to post this or not. I decided I would.
After the thousands of responses Wade received, I think most of us would agree that some have been incredible, someawful, some down right mean and some just plain unchristian.
It is the latter this will address.
I hope this is not too much for a one-time repeat.
In His Service
wtreat@centurytel.net
---------------------------------
WHAT IS A WOLF?
A WORD frequently referred to in Scripture as an emblem of “treachery and cruelty”
Hi All, I look across Christiandom and I see wonderful things happening. At the same time I see terrible and sad things happening. I see folks in refugee camps being saved by the hundreds. I see people with nothing to eat and living in tents crying before the Lord. I see good Christian people doing all they can to do Christ work in a manner pleasing to Him.
However, as Christ said, BEWARE! In His Word He said the Wolves would come even from among us. (see below)
I view the people called "Christian" through one lense and one lense only. Christ said, "BY YOUR FRUITS YOU WILL BE KNOWN."
You must look around and make up your own mind. No one can stand behind religion or denominational rules and hurt other people. Causing homelessness, hunger, strife, pain etc is not christian behaviour. (see galatians 5 and Romans 1 about ungodly behaviour.) "envy, strife, deciet, heartless, ruthless, slander, gossip"
One does not have to look far to see these traits and many others being practiced throughout the world by religious people. And yes, even in our beloved SBC.
CHRIST SAID THEY WOULD COME FROM AMONG US and he gives us another warning through Paul " Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them." YOU MIGHT WANT TO BE A LITTLE CAREFUL WHO YOU ARE DEFENDING AND AGREEING WITH.
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FROM HERE ON, ALL THE WRITING WAS COPIED FROM OTHER BIBLICAL WRITERS. (EXCEPT THE BIBLE VERSES, OF COURSE)
Matthew makes full use of images. First, sheep and wolves. In their activities in propagating the Gospel the disciples will be like sheep among wolves. In the Bible sheep are portrayed as creatures who are dependent on the guidance of their shepherd. Wolves, on the other hand, are terrifying creatures who enjoy tearing apart their prey. In the Bible, writers have used the image of the wolf to describe evil people and evil institutions. (For example, dishonest officials, selfish leaders and false prophets and teachers).
There is further advice: they must be 'wise as serpents and innocent as doves.' The serpent, or snake, has long been regarded as having characteristics of beauty (by way of its sinuous motion); of power (in its ability to hypnotise its prey); of potent new life (through its ability to shed skin), and in the appearance that it gives of always watching. Likewise, the disciples must be always watching.
Jeremiah 5:6 “a wolf from the desert will ravage them,” wolves ravage their prey
Habakuk 1:8 “fiercer than wolves at dusk.” Wolves are fierce
EZ 22:27 “like wolves tearing their prey;” Wolves tear their pray
Math 7:15 “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves”. wolves come in nice clothes or disguises but are very dangerous
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. ( DO YOU SEE THAT? “OF YOUR OWN SELVES?)
Acts 20:29-31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Jesus Christ warned Believers to watch out for "wolves" - a warning that included a warning to the wolves themselves of the fate that awaits them if they don't repent of their evil:
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits. "Not every one who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your Name [to understand the two ways that God's Name is taken in vain, see The Third Commandment], and cast out demons in Your Name, and do many mighty works in Your Name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you evildoers.'" (Matthew
NOT A HARD EQUATION.
LOVE THE LORD AND LIVE LIKE YOU MEAN IT
the Wade & McKissic SBC presidential nominees gather a whopping 7.56 % the Revolution is on
Sign your name
Anonymous said...
Sign your name
Now that's funny!
Does anyone have a comment about Johnny Hunt's education and degrees??? Is that a common thing for ministers to get degrees online???
"the Wade & McKissic SBC presidential nominees gather a whopping 7.56 % the Revolution is on"
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Seems to me this is a half full/half empty thing.
Martin luther was only one in millions of catholics. He did alright in his stand and belief. His outcome even caused you and me to blog FREELY.
So 7% of aprox. 7000 is pretty good odds for a beginning.
grace
wtreat
Crowder said: "Now here is where it really gets scary: From 1961 to 2001 is 31 years: 3+1 is 4"
1961 to 2001 is 31 years? Really?
And somehow you think your theology is right as well? Oh brother!
Still an idiot...right to the very end.
Atta girl Crowder.
You did get the 3 + 1 right though.
Keep at that book learnin' boy. It's aworkin'!
Oddly another thing that I have been reading about in the past few months that I was hoping for approval...you strongly supported at the convention. The database is a good thing. Intuitively thinking on this you must be on the right page with addressing these thing.
A regular blog reader...
It may come as a shock to you however, what kind of research have you done on the earliest civilizations of mankind?
I need something like a sledge-hammer to shock my people into the realization that the whole story of Jesus Christ is really a farce. Strange but its true. Designed by the Italian/Romans. Ask any Jewish person today if they believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah and their answer is no. Ask what did your parents tell you about Jesus? They say we didn't talk about that. The Romans contrived the epic of the incarnation of God coming in the form of Christ, and when Pope Innocent III, feared losing the church in Europe after large protest broke out, he invented the movement of the "Inquisition" to torture and killed those who would not accept Jesus Christ. The Inquisition drove Sephardic Jews out of Spain scattering them over many countries etc.
To get an intelligent view of human origin one must read about the life of ancient civilization. See: Scholarship of Dr. Samuel Noah Kramer a graduate of University of Pennsylvania. He specializes in restoration of cuneiform tablets and language of the Sumerians.
Anonymous,
Your comment, though sincere, neither fazes or entices anyone who knows the incarnate God. To tell a stranger his intimate friend does not exist is a mere revelation that you, the author of the comment, do not know him.
Blessings,
Wade
Wade, Greetings. I have been a Christian since a childhood and now I am 62. I came to this site in hopes of finding someone able to give an academic challenge to findings that
I have made through research. One would be a fool to deny the existence of divine creators. However we should not throw away our human commonsense in following proper procedure in ascertaining the right information that should lead us to the exact identity of who the divine (God) is.
We are all human brethren so lets offer one another reciprocating communicable respect. Let me make this point. If you agree like I do, human has a direct origin, correct? Since there is a literal origin of mankind, then there must be literal evidence that we can trace back to the earliest civilizations, right?
It seems plausible to say that we in our time should be guided by information our ancient ancestry has left us, wherein are found facts about God and man's connection with God if there is a relationship established, am I correct? So before you put me down please try to understand whether I am speaking as one uninformed or that has merit. I would like to have your responsive thoughts to my initial post. Please review it again so we can have a scholarly dialog on this very important matter. Thanks.
wtreat here, I think the answer is given in Holy Scripture. It doesn't say faith comes by seeing or by scientific evidence. It says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
AND "8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
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AND "HEB 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.
Anon, have you forgotten that the scripture says that you should :prove all things and hold fast to what is good? Give a probative answer to everyone who of the hope within you. Before you can have such broad religious faith you must have at least a far back ancient historic foundation. Or else you faith-boat is really sailing on dry land. You can go ahead imagining a God that you owe your loyalty, however you need to know good human ancient history that is not presented whole in the KJV. The bible is taken for divine authority but the real truth is that Romans has contrived it. By doing so they've incorporated two problematic things. First they depict a God that was very intoxicated at the time he made the heavens and earth. Second, they besmirched the Jewish people making them out to be the ones who killed their own messiah.
Anonymous: see 1 Peter 3:14-16
The key is not proof but hope - and even if it was proof, there is no mention of a "probative" answer. We are just to give you the reason for our hope and you will either accept or reject it.
Ultimately, wtreat is right - if you are looking for absolute proof, then keep looking - you'll not find it this side of heaven. Faith is does not depend solely on evidence - for if it did, it would not be faith.
Anon II. I only mean to be logical. Should faith be placed in logical use?
Are you serious? I would like to go heaven too and been having faith and hope in it since age seven now I am 62. This is a fact history us that once upon a time the Roman Catholic pope Innocent III, used the Inquisition to tortured and killed people who would not accept contrived Jesus Christ. See how they lied that the Jews brought Jesus to be crucified? Look, none of it happened.
They foreknew that people would question the falsehood they made up, so the they spice it with misuse of Faith. Faith is good when its used with much discretion but having faith in something with no true basis as foundation that is using faith foolishly. Am I wrong here reverend? This is especially true when you're believing in a notion where a criminal/s bring the message. The Roman Catholic has claimed that they receive the church from successors of the Jewish apostles, St. Peter and St. Paul. They are the quintessential conduit of Jesus Christ church over the last 2000 years. Too many allegations are made in the bible so as to bar believers from verifying at least some of them to nourish proper their faith, don't you agree with that? No body in their right mind should ignore common, human ancient history to put such substantive FAITH into some belief, where they're not even permitted to certify no prong that is relevant to the nucleus of such faith. Correct? Or else it's open to being bamboozled I aver.
Anon II. I apologize for not editing the last post better, However I promise that I will read other post thoroughly.
Anon I -T.A.
GP
Please give me a minute or two of your serious time because I'm really doing the same thing too, being serious with my time.
I hate to see the true picture that is underlining our Christian faith. You may feel like just deleting this email when you understand my complete message, and I understand that impulse because I once felt them myself. Having been a Christian since age 7 until in my late 50s it hurts me to my stomach when I saw that our world history reveals that a change from polytheism in the past, to monotheism meant a move from human reality to an almost perfect religious worldwide scam.
There's a special reason why its the western hemisphere they evangelized first with Christianity and then infected middle easterners with the Islamic faith. Watch this. The Jews were scattered abroad by the Inquisition because Pope Innocent III could not convert them to Christianity. The reason? The things they (Romans) wrote in the bible about Jews and Jesus Christ who is supposed to be Jewish Messiah, are all false. Neither could they sell Jesus to the Arab people for basically the same reason. So you can see why they targeted the Westerners first in hopes that over time it could catch on in the east as well.
The Catholic Church used to Torture and kill people who didn't accept Jesus Christ as savior and Lord. By doing some research even in the Britannica Encyclopedia it will show that its the Romans Papal under Constantine that originated the Christian scam, may be with the co-operation of political Jewish leaders but we know that the populace of Jews averse to the notion of Jesus as is written in the KJV. Search Jewish Encyclopedia as well and you'll see clearly that there is no rendition that recognized Jesus as a phenomenon in their life history and who is supposed to be their Messiah. The Jesus story just did not happen based on evidence. If there were anything true about Jesus Christ Blood then it would have cleansed the pedophile priests and avoid the molestation of boys. See, they have forgotten to let the priests married and have a family as they set it forth in the bible that God said "be fruitful and multiply" and "a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife" but the congruity has slipped them.
The religious and educational system throughout much of the world is tainted by the Italian/Romans effort to have control over the masses. Can you guess a good reason why Present George W. Bush has such a cozy relationship with Pope Benedict?
Why is Darwin's theory of evolution being taught in the public schools when government has in its possession hieroglyphics and tablets etc., fill with ancient information delineating human literal origin? See the scholarship of Dr. Samuel Noah Kramer of Pennsylvania University on Sumerian history in Cuneiform language, Babylonian, Egyptian and Assyrian. Oh, we have a whole society bamboozled.
Tim
GP
I heard a recording one of Johnny Hunt's sermons. He is an excellent preacher.
2 degrees of Wade
Wade,
When are coming back!
Hey, Anon.
Please, life is too short and our society is dying from the Italian/Roman Catholics bamboozle- spell of "Faith & Believe", worldwide for centuries now.
Lets us be as out spoken as we can, to demonstrate that we're no longer in the darkness of night but, are people who have read history and have seen the light of the world. And that light is definitively not their contrived lying-incarnate Jesus Christ. far from being that.
wtreat here:
I agree with the last post, enough of the dark age of lying about Christ and would like to add,
THE LORD LIVETH AND BLESSED BE THE ROCK AND MAY THE GOD OF MY SALVATION BE EXALTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wtreat@centurytel.net
Anonymous,
Possibly October.
We'll see.
Wade
Anon Tim
Israel has been partially hardened, broken off and in a state of unbelief. (Romans 11:25-36)
They are that way for a reason.(John 12:37-50)
And one day, they will know better. So will you.
Zech 12:10, IS 44:3, Ez 39:29, Joel 2:28-29, John 19:37, Rev 1:7
aqtzsaswTo Anonymous who said, “Oh, we have a whole society bamboozled.”
I like that word “bamboozled”. It reminds me of ‘Chicken Little’ who thought the sky was falling. So the real question: WHO is bamboozled…society or you?
Where the rubber meets the road is the ABSENCE of your testimony of you becoming a Christian at the age of seven. Many at that age haven’t know what they were doing, and the devil fooled them that they were saved for many years and perhaps many didn’t know until they entered hell.
“No man comes to the Father unless the Spirit draws him.” Did the Holy Spirit convince you to accept Jesus or you would go to hell? If He did, then you had better STUDY Hebrews 10: 29:
“How much worse punishment, do you think one will deserve who has trampled on the Son of God, regarded as profane the blood of the covenant by which he WAS SANCTIFIED, and insulted the Spirit of Grace?”
Anonymous, if you were a Christian you were sanctified. If you only thought you were saved, then you have not committed that sin, but have been led astray by the blind leading the blind.
You keep referring to “Dr. Samuel Noah Kramer”. Is he the one you’re quoting when you say? “…he [Pope Innocent III] invented the movement of the ‘inquisition’ to torture and killed those who would not accept Jesus Christ.”
The Inquisition in 1184 established a Holy Office to kill heretics. Google says, “The Inquisition was a Roman Catholic tribunal for discovery and punishment of heresy…In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. It was instituted by Pope Innocent III.”
Have you read ‘Foxe’s Book of Martyrs’? He was born 1516 and died 1587. At one time if there was a Bible on the mantel, his book would be next to it. His book tells of Christians being burned at the stake. A lot of them were priests that were named heretics for not believing the Lord’s Supper was not real flesh and blood of Christ but only a symbol. If you want to read real history, read ‘The Trail of Blood’ by J.M. Carroll. (Google) He had collected one of the largest libraries on Christian history. It was given to SWBTS after his death.
Carroll’s book has been rejected (in my opinion) by not having a ‘high’ regard for the Bible as he wrote:
“These great churches necessarily had many preachers or elders (Acts 20:17). Some of the bishops or pastors began to assume authority not given them in the New Testament. They began to claim authority over other and smaller churches. They, with their many elders, began to lord it over God's heritage (III John 9). Here was the beginning of an error which has grown and multiplied into many other seriously hurtful errors. Here was the beginning of different orders in the ministry running up finally to what is practiced now by others as well as Catholics. Here began what resulted in an entire change from the original democratic policy and government of the early churches. This irregularity began in a small way, even before the close of the second century. This was possibly the first serious departure from the New Testament church order."
The persecution of Christians today for not accepting the BFM 2000 or the Conservative Resurgence is much the same way as it was back then.
Only the punishment is restrained by laws of the land. Even then, some laws of the land are broken such as sex discrimination.
bihkbwoRexray:
This is Anon I.
Samuel Noah Kramer has a PhD from University of Pennsylvania, a in the study of ancient language, such as Sumerian, Egyptian Assyrian and some others.(Please do some research on his work) The truth about human organ is told by the Sumerians, bible authors extract from it, giving bits of truth and even mix them in with intended falsehood. And Dr. Kramer study the life of those cultures that I mentioned. My friend, I know what the misuse of the word Faith and Believe can do. It makes believers in the so-called Christ, walk over logic, deny even the most obvious truth and make all manner of excuses for an absurd imaginary God. I can tell you that I lived a clean life as a believer in the imagined Christ, I lost my virginity at age 25. I still live a clean life and love others.
However, by my reading of ancient civilized human life, I can't use the Catholic perverted meaning of Faith any longer, to assume that a stupid God like the one depicted in book of Genesis is true. So believers in Christ will forever make assumptions in believing that there is one God out there, who create man in the spooky, and has only dealt with man psychically throughout time. Knowing fully well that man would fail, yet he made them anyway, and decide to kill them with an angry flood after they have done forbidden deeds. (what is the use of one dying to fix something that has happen so long ago?) Its pure garbage, makes no sense, but some may say that natural minds can't know the mysteries of God. But there is nothing mystical about such nonsense.. Many people are making lots of money off Jesus Christ, while knowing, the whole thing to be false. Man was made to be the ancient gods as slave, not to go to any place call heaven. Arguing about Faith without connection with ancient civilization confirmation, is factually being misinformed. Tell me about a wise God, not the ridiculous and absurd one who turns and be sorry for his mistakes (that he made man), and like to smell roast flesh for burnt offerings, tell Jewish People to kill their neighbors, inter alia. My position has history to back it up, folks can keep the religious faith, which is nothing more than Italian/Romans contrivance.
feJude 1:17 But you must remember, beloved, the predictions of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. 18 They said to you, In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions. 19 It is these who cause divisions, worldly people, devoid of the Spirit.
Titus 1:15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Rev 21 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.
1 Cor 2:Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. 14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
1 John 3: 19 By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; 20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.
John 12:35 So Jesus said to them, The light is among you for a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, lest darkness overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.When Jesus had said these things, he departed and hid himself from them. 37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him, 38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled:
Lord, who has believed what he heard from us,
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said, 40
He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their heart,
lest they see with their eyes,
and understand with their heart, and turn,
and I would heal them.
Hebrews 3:12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. 13 But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end. 15 As it is said,
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.
16 For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was he provoked for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did he swear that they would not enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.
Friend, you have a heart problem. Caused by the deceitfulness of your own sin. Repent, turn and be healed.....
Mark 16:1616 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Baptism without belief is just gettin wet.
From Anon I:
It is not easy to discover the scam of Christianity, I have to admit. One has to read some ancient history to get in the know of human origin, not the bible that has extracted tidbits of past events. Then they must have an analytical ability and be able to identify conflicts in written or verbal narrative outline. A good place to start is with the book of Genesis, because there's no one in their sober mind who reads about the events of pre-deluge and subsequent ones, would conclude that we have a sage and all wise God. Beginning with Adam and eve in Eden. The serpent, the curse of man, when God decides to kill man with a flood, and the Tower of Babel - there is for certain unequivocal evidence, that the God administrating those actions, is not wise by any stretch of imagination. Its a coy act by Italian/Romans, who designed monotheism, the one God idea, and have succeed in selling an attractive worldwide false perception of who God is. The bible's description of how man was created, is a misrepresentation of the Sumerians account of creation. And the bible was written from the much earlier record history. No one can invent a different human history. For those who think that the KJV is a divine authority, my advice to them, is to get interested into ancient history, read enough of it, then come back to me with the right knowledge of the world. Search such as the Sumerian, Egyptian, Assyrian and Babylonian history.
Next, call me "Global", not Anon
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
To Anonymous that’s going to hell,
That’s not a nice way to say hello, but it’s the truth because the Bible teaches that God’s Spirit will NOT always strive with man.
My cousin was buried in China when she was five. Her parents told her she was going to be with Jesus. She replied, “Mama, will you go with me?”
As she slipped away, her last words: “Mama, which one is our house?”
But you’ll never see what she saw will you? More than likely you will die as one famous atheist’s last words: “Oh, if I had the faith of a Holy Roller!”
Rex Ray, this is Global. I'm not an atheist and couldn't be one. My knowledge remains within the jurisdiction of civilize human history, and whereas it accounts for all knowing occurrences throughout the ages. The bible is designed to bury our intelligence so that we call the truth a lie. But think of it and be realistic. How can you put natural world history aside by being in love with unproven religious telepathy?
I understand the density of religious emotions, and how it strikes at the heart of those of us brought up, unwittingly to believe faith in Christ. That he died to redeem us by his blood because of Adam sin. The stuff is found to be a Papal's bamboozle of our society. But you can ask Jimmy Swaggert, what went wrong with the blood of Jesus, when he was picking up prostitutes after his sermons. Ask Billy Graham why the Holy Ghost has not healed him of his three illnesses. I know the problem is because we Westerners, believe that an invisible God made man, and that he is behind all of the madness that is going on in our lives.
But there is no evidence for that, based on solid human history. Man was made by DNA manipulation, as a cross between Earthly life, and the image of those that come down from heaven to Earth, they're the ones making man to be their worker/servant. The sons of gods, they are human Lords and Gods. See Genesis 6 chapter. Instead of quoting serious scriptures you find to be all controlling, research a little on the early civilization of Egypt. This is not about being ungodly, my dear friend, its about the real truth.
I recommend Colossians 2:8 for anonymous who seems to think that Christianity is a lie.
I may not be an overly educated man but in the hills in Oklahoma we have a word for that kind of talk against Jesus .................................................................DRIBBLE
wtreat@centurytel.net
that word would be DRIBBLE
WTREAT
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
From Global:
jeremiaj2004@bellsouth.net
My friends, I do appreciate your responses. In order to have a challenging argument, you've to plug into the reality of world history. Religious faith without knowledge of genuing human history, may be worthless. I know the bible probably more advanced than some giving responses. I've been in the scriptures since I was age 7 until my late 50s. When I found living proof of ancient history (Sumerian) that recorded true on-the-ground human life history, it blew as it were, my intestins out of me. I'm no fanatic but the faith talk will always tends to make logic unture. But you should try the part of scripture that says, "Prove all things".
Look, I'm not knocking our religion that we grew up with. I just disdain our government for suppressing our genuine origin, and stuff Englishman Charles Dawin's impressive theory down our throats... See the work of Samuel Noah Kramer, PhD. the the subject.
Edited version
From Global:
jeremiaj2004@bellsouth.net
My friends, I do appreciate your responses. In order to have a challenging argument, you've to plug into the reality of world history. Religious faith without knowledge of genuine human history, may be worthless. I know the bible probably more advanced than some giving responses. I've been in the scriptures since I was age 7 until my late 50s. When I found living proof of ancient history (Sumerian) that recorded true on-the-ground human life history, it blew as it were, my intestines out of me. I'm no fanatic but the faith talk will always tends to make logic untrue. But you should try the part of scripture that says, "Prove all things".
Look, I'm not knocking our religion that we grew up with. I just disdain our government for suppressing our genuine origin, and stuff Englishman Charles Darwin's impressive theory down our throats... See the work of Samuel Noah Kramer, PhD. the subject.
In order for it to be "our religion" it has to include and have as a focal point CHRIST. Crucified and Risen. If it doesn't include Christ, it is yours and none of mine.
1 John 2:19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
You may want to revisit 1 John 2
Ezekiel:
"You may want to revisit 1 John 2". You haven't gotten the point. Apparently brainwashing has taken away much of your logical senses, so that you become non-responsive to context of thought. I've been telling you that the bible was written from Sumerian history. You are not responding to that claim, please get into the real order of human reality and out of the fanatical, European/Romanized religious scam of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. 11 And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds. 16 I repeat, let no one think me foolish. But even if you do, accept me as a fool, so that I too may boast a little. 17 What I am saying with this boastful confidence, I say not with the Lord's authority but as a fool.
By the way, I have gotten the point. You deny Christ. Apparently, you think that Christ is an invention of the Romans and that He is a religious scam.
Apparently, in all your reading and studying the bible, you have failed to see Christ in the old testament as well. He has been here since the beginning. (John 1) Before the romans or the europeans.
1 Cor 10:10 1 I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
King David saw Him....
Solomon saw Him....
If you were as well read as you claim to be you would know that.
1 John 2
18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. 22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. 24 Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that he made to us—eternal life. 26 I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything—and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you—abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.
You are one of them....if you deny Christ....an antichrist.
Repent for the kingdom is at hand.
Jude 15 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Jude 15 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
Abraham saw Him as well.
Gen 18 1 And the Lord appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, as he sat at the door of his tent in the heat of the day. 2 He lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing in front of him. When he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth 3 and said, O Lord, if I have found favor in your sight, do not pass by your servant.
Moses, Isaac and Jacob saw Him too.
Exodus 62 God spoke to Moses and said to him, I am the Lord. 3 I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, as God Almighty, but by my name the Lord I did not make myself known to them.
Deut 34 10 And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,
You may want to read the bible again with this in mind. No one has ever seen God (the father). But God (The Son) has made Him known. Every time you read where God, or the Lord has appeared to a man in the OT it was Christ.
John 18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
No one has ever seen the Father.
Ex 33:20 But, he said, you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live. 21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand on the rock, 22 and while my glory passes by *******I will put you in a cleft of the rock,****** and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back, but my face shall not be seen.
Christ, The Rock, was there.
See also....33 22
in a clift.
Ps 18:2, So 2:3, Isa 2:21, 32:2, 1Co 10:4, 2Co 5:19,
cover thee.
De 33:12, Ps 91:1, 4, The rock on which Moses stood, and in the clift of which he was sheltered, was doubtless an emblem of Christ; in whose person, character, and salvation alone, sinners may by faith see the glory of God, and live; for there it appears in softened splendour; as the sun, when his brightness is diminished by a mist, is beheld more distinctly by the human eye.--Scott
You just can't say that you believe in God the Father and deny God the Son. Christ. The only way you know God the Father is through God the Son. To deny one is to deny both.
Repent.
Mr. Ezekiel:
"By the way, I have gotten the point. You deny Christ. Apparently, you think that Christ is an invention of the Romans and that He is a religious scam."
Now your job is to prove the things I said wrong. The bible has nothing in it to refute my allegation, because large portions of it has been taken from history that predates all of its authors.
I think that you're giving me what's you think to be the best response. But that's not true. For your information, the bible is not designed to be a real history book, but a good and bad literature, containing bits of censored or untrue history. I gave you a credible source for research. Samuel Noah Kramer PhD. - University of Pennsylvania. This is about true human history, and you will learn from Sumerians an ancient civilization the truth about Adam and Eve, the curse of man, who they depict as Satan, the deluge that bible says your God used to wipe out your brothers and sisters, the Tower of Babel etc. Get the real account. Those scriptures you're quoting to me I have live with for more than 40 years. Speak to me from authentic human history, the history that accounts for the life Tera and Abraham his son. Sketches from the bible wont do, brother.
No, I don't think so. I don't have to disprove anything you have said. The WORD has done a more than adequate job of that.
It appears that you have based your salvation on this Dr. Kramer. Basing the eternity you face on a man's idea of what he thinks is a huge mistake.
Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.
2 Cor 4: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Repent, turn, believe and be healed. Satan has blinded your mind.
It always amazes me when someone comes along with ONLY their own constructs and context in which their willing to argue and then say, "disprove it and you can't use your own sources".
I agree with ezekial, you have been blinded and you will never realize the truth you so badly want to find until you do.
Well, how has given you the bible? Government did. But you see how they throw it out of the schools. Political leaders have been behind religion all along. Think about the God they depicted in Genesis creation story. This God knew that he would give man free will, He knew that they would fail, yet made them anyway. When man acted according to his nature, God kicked him out of the workplace/garden. God turns around and sorry that he made man, and proceeds to wipe man out with a flood. he claims to kill the wicked people but used the same sinful folks to repopulate earth with abomination all over.
He confuse man's language when trying to succeed at his ambition. Then he send only begotten son through a virgin to give his blood for our redemption. Tell me, haven't you seen something wrong with that God?
Not at all.
Isaiah 29:13And the Lord said:
Because this people draw near with their mouth
and honor me with their lips,
while their hearts are far from me,
and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,
14 therefore, behold, I will again
do wonderful things with this people,
with wonder upon wonder;
and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.
15 Ah, you who hide deep from the Lord your counsel, whose deeds are in the dark,
and who say, Who sees us? Who knows us?
16 You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
that the thing made should say of its maker,
He did not make me;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
He has no understanding?
Isaiah 64:8
But now, O Lord, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
Romans 9:10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— 12 she was told, The older will serve the younger. 13 As it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, Why have you made me like this? 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, Those who were not my people I will call my people, and her who was not beloved I will call beloved. 26 And in the very place where it was said to them, You are not my people,there they will be called sons of the living God.
I think now we are getting closer to the root of the problem. You are looking for a way to justify questioning God. The Potter. You just can't believe that He is who He says he is.
So you find a guy, a phd, that tells you it is all bunk and you believe him rather than your creator. You want to tell God that He is not acting rationally, that He is not a fair and just God. So you won't believe in Him.
You can't believe that He would make a vessel for honor and a vessel for destruction. A vessel of wrath. So you, the vessel question the Potter.
It would do you great good to stop and consider that the actions that He has taken throughout the bible, throughout His creation's history have been out of love, mercy, patience and long suffering. He created man to worship Him. Since Adam and Eve ate the fruit, man has been consistently going the other way. The actions that you claim are unfair or unjust are His response to sin in the man. He didn't cause that. Satan did. The serpent.
All He has been doing since He made man is to get him to turn around and worship the creator rather than the creation.
Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
What amazes me is that anyone that has read the bible with even a hint of understanding can't see that he has earned God's wrath by committing his sin. Stop faulting God for your sin, your lust and your desire. He didn't make you that way, Satan did.
Man was created in the image of God in the beginning. Adam's fall forever changed that. Since then, every man born has been born dead in sin. The only ones that have ever been saved since had faith in Jesus. OT or NT.
Romans 5: 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. 12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. 16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. 17 If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. 20 Now the law came in to increase the trespass, but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That is what is so mind boggling about Jesus. He that knew no sin became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God.
2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Stop blaming the wrath you see on God and put it where it belongs. On Satan. And yourself. Believe that He loved you enough that He sacrificed His own Son on the Cross so that you may have everlasting life in the presence of the Most High God.
Why are you people showering Scripture and trying to dialogue with this anon/global/Dr-Kramer (whoever he is)-worshipping guy, who is either a little unbalanced, or just trying to bait you into an argument on his grounds? Telling him that Jesus is real because you have experienced Him, that Scripture explains many/most/all his arguments, and that neither Jesus nor the Bible is a product of the Roman Catholic church is like me telling volfan007 that I have a high view view of Scripture in spite of the fact that I do not like the term "inerrant." I have my reasons and my justification, but it doesn't matter to him, he just "knows" better. Anon/global/"read Dr. Kramer" just knows better.
John Fariss
"Tell me, haven't you seen something wrong with that God?"
Anon, if I might chime in. I do indeed see something wrong with that God. And that is precisely the reason why I do not worship that god. I do not worship a god of regret, a god who is sorry for something he has done, nor a god who changes his mind.
From my humble perspective of God's revelation to man, let me try and tell you about the God in whom I believe and whom I believe all divine revelation came:
God, the great "I AM" has always existed in 3 persons. The love enjoyed through this triune nature was so great that God's perfect nature demanded glory and desired to be worshipped. (One must understand that God's nature is infinitely incomparable to our own yet it is through the communicable attributes of God that we are able to know Him more deeply. God desired glory for His Son. I believe that God created sin (unrighteousness) to contrast His majesty and glory and then sent His Son to "fulfill all righteousness." We who are called according to His purpose are called to reveal His glory through the righteousness He has imputed to us. We are called to be salt and light.
We exist ONLY for the glory of God. All else will come to sudden destruction. Fair? Not at all. Sucks to be the wicked. But all men are responsible for their own unrighteousness. Fair? Absolutely. Nothing that God does in incorrect, false, or not right.
Fair? Fair for who? You? It’s not about you. It never was. It is about Christ and His glory and His love for the Father.
KMC,
" I believe that God created sin (unrighteousness)"
Could you show me (scripture) how you square that with
James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, I am being tempted by God, for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. 14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
And Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
aaaahhhhh, the origins of sin, death, sickness, evil, etc. Now there is a subject worth some thought.
If God, who the Bibles says created all things, did not create it, then who did?
Just a thought.
wtreat@centurytel.net
Sin is a result of man's desire. James 1:14 It ultimately results in sickness and death. Romans 5:12
James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Sin came into the world through Adam when his desire gave birth to sin (disobedience to God) Gen 3:6, Romans 5:12 resulting in death for man.
So, working backward, death came from sickness that came from sin that was born out of desire. Adam's desire.
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
He didn't create evil either. That is not to say that He doesn't use it to accomplish His will.
Gen 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.
Two different aspects of the same event.
Come back! PLEASE!
"Could you show me (scripture) how you square that with "
ez: you simply need to accept what I say as truth.
But, let me attempt to explain. You quote "through the one man sin entered..." We also know that salvation is "through faith." Now some might believe that this "faith" comes from man "accepting" or "choosing" something. I do not. All of my faith and abilities come from a sovereign God. Additionally, though He does not temp me, he certainly is in control of my sin. It is illogical to assume that God did not pre-plan sin as a means to an end of accomplishing His will.
And THAT, sir, is how I square it!
K Michelle Chowder,
One easily infers from your statement, "he (God) certainly is in control of my sin," that God causes you to sin. If God is in control and you sin, then it is God's fault using your flawed analysis.
How absurd for you to think that God causes you to sin. Your free will causes you to sin. God's sovereignty is in no way compromised by your ability to choose to sin.
You have no scriptural basis for your assertion, so one does not have to accept what you say as truth.
Bill Scott
Bill Scott,
Thank you for your comment. Are you saying then that God does not have sovereignty over what I do? Are you somehow saying that the Christ who lives within me cannot place parameters on that which I do? Are you saying that our totally sovereign God did not plan, create and administer the curse upon all of creation?
I do not buy the "wind-up toy" theory.
Btw, there is no biblical support for freewill. We have a choice, and we have a will--but we do not have free will. Free will cannot exist if one believes in the total sovereignty of God. (not that one can be partly sovereign)
Don't take the bait Bill - you can't argue with someone who thinks God sits at his right hand.
choose you this day whom you will serve...........
-----------------------
DT 30:19 This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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KMc, if adam and eve didn't have free will then they were programmed and if they were programmed then where does that leave the foundation of your belief.
Yes, God chose to allow them free will to choose. If not, then we are all robots and how can our love of the Lord be real if we are just programmed robots?
wtreat@centurytel,net
treat,
I respect your treatment of this passage, but I am quite confident that this only proves a universal call. Either God provides the increase, or the will of man provides the increase. I am unclear how one born with a sin nature is free. I am unclear how one who is spiritually dead can chose life. How can the unregenerate soul have faith in a God who does not inhabit them? Can the glory of God really be revealed to the lost soul before regeneration? Or does the Spirit need to first open their eyes and regenerate their soul for them to have faith?
You will forgive me if I find that logic and reason are essential for biblical exegesis.
If I choose God, I get the glory, if God chooses me, He gets the glory.
Romans 16:25-27
Anon: God does sit at my right hand when I am bowing at the feet of Jesus. ;)
Young man, I truly feel sorry for you.
treat
KMC,
"I am unclear how one born with a sin nature is free."
Try Galatains 4-5 and Romans 6 and Romans 8:2
"ez: you simply need to accept what I say as truth."
No I don't. I am to test your spirit. 1 John 4:1
1 He warns them not to believe all who boast of the Spirit;
7 and exhorts to brotherly love.
believe not.
De 13:1-5, Pr 14:15, Jer 5:31, 29:8, 9, Mt 7:15, 16, 24:4, 5, Ro 16:18,
2Pe 2:1
try.
Lu 12:57, Ac 17:11, Ro 16:19, 1Co 14:29, 1Th 5:21, Re 2:2,
many.
2:18, Mt 24:5, 23-26, Mr 13:21, Lu 21:8, Ac 20:29, 1Ti 4:1, 2Ti 3:13,
2Pe 2:1, 2Jo 1:7,
Jer 29:8 For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel: Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are among you deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams that they dream,
If all else fails when you get in over your head, pick a fight about election and calvanism, Right? Is that what they teach you in seminary today? Accuse others of not understanding His sovereignty, now lets discuss free will.....smoke and mirrors.
I believe the discussion started with the origin of sin, evil, sickness and all the other bad stuff that happens.
I would still like an answer to my original question if you please. One supported by scripture and not just a silly "take my word for it".
You are from MO, so you should be able to understand "show me".
KMC,
"Btw, there is no biblical support for freewill. We have a choice, and we have a will--but we do not have free will. Free will cannot exist if one believes in the total sovereignty of God. (not that one can be partly sovereign)
That is inconsistent with Hebrews 3 and Psalms 106:14,15.
KMC
you said "Free will cannot exist if one believes in the total sovereignty of God."
Do you believe that God can do What He wants, When He wants, How He wants to Whoever He wants at any time?
If not, the what is sovereignty?
"Do you believe that God can do What He wants, When He wants, How He wants to Whoever He wants at any time?"
No.....but thanks for the bait.
In light if that question, however, your next question: "If not, the[n] what is sovereignty?" becomes irrational from a biblical perspective.
If you are asking me if God can act outside of His own righteousness then my answer would be "no." And my answer would again be "no" in relation to that affecting His sovereignty. From my perspective, that is a foundational principle in regard to the incommunicable attributes of God.
ez:
I answered your question. Here is again.
"But, let me attempt to explain. You quote "through the one man sin entered..." We also know that salvation is "through faith." Now some might believe that this "faith" comes from man "accepting" or "choosing" something. I do not. All of my faith and abilities come from a sovereign God. Additionally, though He does not temp me, he certainly is in control of my sin. It is illogical to assume that God did not pre-plan sin as a means to an end of accomplishing His will."
As for the prooftexting contest....I shall obstain. We are discussing a theological issue. Theology is all about deduction and logical inferences from Scripture as a whole. I am allowed to make my own or to affirm those of others (e.g. Calvin, Mohler, Piper) based on my own reading of Scripture. Not all theological positions have a nice, neat set of verses to copy in pamphlet form to send home to the masses.
But, let me give you a few examples of Bible characters who did NOT choose God: Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rehab, Paul, and the other 12, and the nation of Israel.
None of these chose God. He chose them. Their lives and biblical narratives are shining examples of unconditional election.
As for Hebrews 3: You do realize this is not speaking of salvation or election, for the writer is speaking to the "brothers" in relation to the hardness of their heart. I see hardness in many believers today. Again, no freewill can exist. Christ who lives within me, and Satan who tries to tempt me. I am only at the mercy of my savior.
As for the Psalms 106 passage, read on a little further and find out WHY this happened. Not because of freewill. It is because of SIN. They exchanged their glory for an image.....they forgot the God who saved them. They were Hebrews by birth, but they WERE NOT THE ELECT! They were "vessels of wrath" (Rm 9)
And, Romans 8:2 tells how one born with a sin nature can be MADE free....through Christ. But until that time, he is NOT free. He is a slave to sin.
Thank you though for the sweet spirit in which you have conveyed your pov.
"Do you believe that God can do What He wants, When He wants, How He wants to Whoever He wants at any time?"
kmc REPLIED to the above Question
"NO.....but thanks for the bait.
NOW, 'NUFF SAID
KMC,
"But, let me attempt to explain. You quote "through the one man sin entered..." We also know that salvation is "through faith." Now some might believe that this "faith" comes from man "accepting" or "choosing" something. I do not. All of my faith and abilities come from a sovereign God. Additionally, though He does not temp me, he certainly is in control of my sin. It is illogical to assume that God did not pre-plan sin as a means to an end of accomplishing His will."
The way He controls your sin and mine is to apply enough heat with the rod of correction to convince us that we don't want to do that any more. What is really illogical is to say that God created sin so he could fix it.
As for the prooftexting contest....I shall obstain. We are discussing a theological issue. Theology is all about deduction and logical inferences from Scripture as a whole. I am allowed to make my own or to affirm those of others (e.g. Calvin, Mohler, Piper) based on my own reading of Scripture. Not all theological positions have a nice, neat set of verses to copy in pamphlet form to send home to the masses.
Theology, mans way of thinking, mans rules. Teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. Matthew 15:9 What ever happened to digging it out for yourself. Accepting man's ideas (Calvin or Arminian) only puts you in a position to have to accept and defend them. Wouldn't your time be better spent doing the works (his works) that he predestine that you walk in?
But, let me give you a few examples of Bible characters who did NOT choose God: Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rehab, Paul, and the other 12, and the nation of Israel.
My point exactly. The nation of Israel that a large portion of which died in the wilderness for lack of belief. They started grumbling and wanted to go back to Egypt. Those folk that died in the wilderness didn't enter into His rest. Heaven.
None of these chose God. He chose them. Their lives and biblical narratives are shining examples of unconditional election.
Then maybe you can tell us how so many died in the wilderness. They were delivered from Egypt. Saved. Right? Noah by water, Israel by water (Red Sea) Was the blood on the door posts in Egypt symbolic of anything? Did it save them, the first born from the angel of death? Salvation?
As for Hebrews 3: You do realize this is not speaking of salvation or election, for the writer is speaking to the "brothers" in relation to the hardness of their heart. I see hardness in many believers today. Again, no freewill can exist. Christ who lives within me, and Satan who tries to tempt me. I am only at the mercy of my savior.
Go back and read Hebrews 3. You, I and we are warned not to harden our hearts. Free will. I can be stiff necked, stubborn and harden my heart just like the whole nation of Israel did. First in the wilderness and then again in Jerusalem.
As for the Psalms 106 passage, read on a little further and find out WHY this happened. Not because of freewill. It is because of SIN. They exchanged their glory for an image.....they forgot the God who saved them. They were Hebrews by birth, but they WERE NOT THE ELECT! They were "vessels of wrath" (Rm 9)
Look at your own words. " First you tell us they are the elect..."But, let me give you a few examples of Bible characters who did NOT choose God: Adam, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Rehab, Paul, and the other 12, and the nation of Israel."
Then you tell us they are not. You are right about the sin. It is the deceitfulness of sin that hardens our hearts. " But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."
Why exhort each other if we don't have any say in it, if we can't change anything?
And, Romans 8:2 tells how one born with a sin nature can be MADE free....through Christ. But until that time, he is NOT free. He is a slave to sin.
Romans 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
You seem to be hinting at the idea that one isn't really free from sin until "that time". What is that time? When you accept Christ? When you are baptised? When you die? Or when Christ died on the cross?
Have you or have you not been crucified with Christ? (Gal 2:20) If you have been, then it is no longer you that sins but sin in you. (Romans 7:17-20)
Ez,
Thanks for the comments but I can no longer continue this for time constraints.
...'till He comes...
...and THAT is MY exit strategy! ;)
OK, I notice there are still a lot of hits here and that means I am not alone in wishing Wade will soon be able to start writing again.
I can honestly say that I miss all the wonderful fellowship on this blog. I also miss the great Christian discussions and insights here.
grace
wtreat@centurytel.net
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