You don't have to agree with me in my perceptions. You don't even have to read this blog or my opinions. My purpose is to give information, and I come with a set of guidelines that I follow, which are:
(1). I will always tell the truth.
(2). I will never intentionally denigrate any individual.
(3). I will not be afraid to voice disagreement.
(4). I am but one voice among many, and I admit I could be wrong in my views.
(5). I desire for the International Mission Board to be as effective as possible in accomplishing her mission to take the gospel to all peoples.
I also have a set of biases that the reader should know:
(1). I believe Dr. Jerry Rankin is a tremendously effective leader for the IMB.
(2). I believe the IMB is most effective when we focus on our mission.
(3). I believe that accountability comes through complete transparency.
(4). I believe that every trustee of the IMB loves Christ and desires what is best for the SBC.
(5). I believe that unless leaders of the SBC stand up and say we have gone "far enough" in the conservative purge and resurgence we will continue to alienate Bible-believing, Christ-honoring, mission-loving people who happen to disagree on the non-essentials of the gospel but wish to serve in SBC mission work.
Now, to my opinion of the meeting.
Dr. Rankin's Presidential Report
This man is a missiological genius.
I heard one of the finest reports I've ever heard justifying the mission of the International Mission Board to extend the gospel to all people groups of the world through church planting movements by reaching into unevangelized regions of the world.
Dr. Rankin explained that the board must always carefully balance between placing missionaries in established countries like Brazil and Mexico, where Southern Baptists have had a presence for over 100 years, and reaching into those high security regions where there is little or no gospel work. Dr. Rankin explained that the IMB needs the "whatever it takes" attitude of the Apostle Paul, who in Romans 15:21 stated his objective of taking Christ to the unevangelized so that those WHO HAD NO NEWS OF HIM SHALL SEE, AND THEY WHO HAVE NOT HEARD SHALL UNDERSTAND.
Dr. Rankin believes we are striking a good balance in providing missionaries for established regions and sending out new missionaries to reach new, unevangelized regions. He asked that all Southern Baptists not focus so much on numbers that we lose the big picture. The harvest is directly linked to people having access to the gospel - and our mission is to take the gospel to "all peoples." To be reproducing indigenous local churches requires a great deal of work in preparing and sowing the new fields. Only after years of dedicated work and field preparation will the harvest come.
Dr. Rankin's report was filled with some relevant statistics and slides that showed the progress of our work, and I felt challenged, after listening to him speak, to facilitate even more people from our church to move to the far, unreached lands of the world to share the gospel of Christ.
Questions For Dr. Rankin After His Report
Immediately after Dr. Rankin's report, Jerry Corbaley stepped to a microphone, not to ask a question, but to make a comment. Jerry said he desired to place Dr. Rankin's endorsement of the blog SBC Outpost "behind us" and commended Dr. Rankin for withdrawing his endorsement of a blog that had risen to the level of slander. Jerry spoke for about five minutes about how blogs can be used by our opponent - the devil - and we best come to grips with what is happening. He said that we must not just say we believe the Bible, but we must do it (I Cor. 5). Jerry also thanked Dr. Rankin for his missiological views and then he sat down. After he spoke I was personally confused about two things:
(1). What did SBC Outpost have to do with Dr. Rankin's report?
I do not believe Dr. Rankin should have ever endorsed SBC Outpost, but I am not troubled by the fact he did - especially after he explained why he did and the reasons he withdrew his endorsement. I was asked to participate in SBC Outpost in the beginning and politely declined because I only wish to answer for my own words, not the words of others. In fact, one of the things that still bothers me is an attempt by anyone to associate comments on my blog to me. I have no problem answering for what I write, but I don't even wish to pretend to defend what someone else writes. Endorsements imply agreement. I can guarantee you Dr. Rankin does not agree with everything written on SBC Outpost - never has, never will; but in our very intense political environnment, it should be obvious that a tactic of some is to try to make someone guilty by association.
(2). What is the slander on SBC Outpost?
I asked Jerry Corbaley after the meeting to give me a specific of what he would call "slander" on SBC Outpost. I wanted a specific post, paragraph, sentence or word that he believed to be "slanderous." He may not have understood my question because he simply said if people would read the Bible they could come to an understanding of what "slander" is and apply that to their reading of the blogs. I desire to continue to do all I can to prevent general, generic allegations of "slander" or "hypocrisy" or "liberalism" - without supporting evidence. I have yet to be given any evidence of slander on SBC Outpost, but frankly, I don't care.
When will trustees learn that the best way to deal with slanderous blogs is to ignore them? Jerry feels SBC Outpost is slanderous but did not offer evidence. I can't understand all the attention. Could it be that some blogs, including SBC Outpost express good ideas, ring true, and are having an impact on the SBC because Southern Baptists are smart enough to discern truth? Who knows?
Maybe what you ought to do is read for oneself and decide if it is slanderous or rings true. Southern Baptists always operate best when evidence is presented on both sides, not just one, and people make up their minds for themselves.
A couple of other trustees went to the microphone after Jerry Corbaley and thanked Dr. Rankin for his leadership and prayed for our President. I couldn't help but smile when trustee Jeff Ginn, a really wonderful man and pastor, thanked the Lord in his prayer for Dr. Rankin's "transparency" and "openness" on the blogs when he answered the questions posed to him about salary. I'm quite confident Dr. Ginn felt Rankin's answers did not rise to the level of slander.
The Treasurer's Report
David Steverson gave us an excellent report on the finances of the IMB. We are well into the fiscal year and revenue exceeds the budget, and expenditures are within the budget. Those two things bode for a good year financially.
I really like David. He is from Oklahoma. He is only the ninth treasurer the IMB has ever had (there have also been only ten IMB Presidents in 150 years). David is the first CPA to serve as treasurer, and he is the first missionary to serve as treasurer. But probably the greatest compliment for David came from his predecessor, Carl Johnson, who served as IMB treasurer for 21 years and was asked to offer the prayer after the report. Carl proceeded to tell us that David is the finest treasurer the IMB has ever had.
I spoke to Carl Johnson during the break. It is the first time I had met him and, I must say, I am impressed. His calm demeanor, baritone voice and easy smile remind me that the IMB has had some wonderful servants over the years. Carl told me this anecdote about the treasurer's office. Well into Baker James Cauthen's tenure as President of the IMB, the finance office never invested in the stock market. There was always a very conservative approach to finances. During one trustee meeting, a trustee suggested the IMB invest a portion of their reserves. To overcome the fear that the IMB might lose in the market, the trustee pledged to cover the first ONE MILLION dollars in losses. The pledge was accepted - but the IMB never lost money and has never looked back. I like trustees who are willing to take a stand for what they believe is best and I appreciated Carl telling me this story.
A Conversation with Dr. John Floyd During the Break
Right before a brief recess, Dr. Floyd, Chairman of the Board, reminded all trustees that they needed their passports. Regional committees will be flying to the regions they serve in the spring of 2008. The IMB will pay for the trip for all trustees (all except a small portion of the fee). During the break I asked Dr. Floyd to which region I should go in the spring. He said that since I was not on a regional committee I would not be participating in the spring trips. I then asked Dr. Floyd what his rationale was for not appointing me to a regional committee this year. He said that I had never apologized to the board and I continue to blog.
I was stunned. I reminded Dr. Floyd that before the March 2006 vote to rescind the recommendation for my removal, a recommendation that had to come before the entire 2006 Greensboro Southern Baptist Convention, I was publicly asked if I would apologize before the board. I said at the time before the entire board, "I have no problem apologizing for something that I know is wrong, but I will not apologize for what I know is NOT wrong. Not only do I not wish to apologize, I stand by every word, sentence and paragraph I have ever written on my blog." The vote to rescind the recommendation was still unanimous - even after every trustee heard me say this publicly before the entire board.
I told John that I would not apologize now and I would not stop blogging. I also told him that I accepted his decision not to appoint me to a regional committtee. As I said in a comment yesterday, in this past year I have been to the South Asia Regional Office, the Pac Rim Regional Office, and I will be going in January 2008 to the East Asia Regional Office, and have plans to go to the Central Asia Regional Office as well. The regional leader for Middle America and the Carribbean is in our church and we wish to partner with him in missions; and our youth are looking for a partnership with the Western Europe region.
The conversation with Dr. Floyd became intense. Right before the end of the break I apologized to Dr. Floyd for allowing too much emotion to come into my conversation with him. I ended my conversation with Dr. Floyd with these words, spoken in as soft and gracious of a voice as possible, "Dr. Floyd, I will not apologize. I will continue blogging for the good of the Southern Baptist Convention and the International Mission Board. I accept your decision to not appoint me to a regional committee."
Dr. Floyd told me he believes that if I appealed his decision to the entire board he has enough votes to uphold his decision. It is my understanding that to overrule the ruling of the chair requires a two-thirds vote. I do not wish to appeal - there may not, at this time, be enough votes - I honestly don't know. I will continue to be patient. New officers are elected in May of 2008. I will blog as long as I am a member of the board and any trips I make overseas I will happily pay for myself.
Overseas Commitee Report
This report was given by the chairman of the Overseas Committee. Two significant reportables came from this report.
First, contrary to some who criticize the IMB for not doing anything about world hunger, the IMB designated $940,847.58 to 50 projects from the World Hunger Fund the last few months. Second, a new regional leader was appointed to the East Asia region. This young man and his wife will remain unidentified for security reasons.
Administrative Committee Report
The administration committee recommended the adoption of the new salary structure for employees of the IMB. I am grateful for the example that Dr. Rankin and our missionaries set in the matter of compensation. Nobody works for the IMB to become rich, and Dr. Rankin models the attitude needed in all our SBC executives when it comes to salary and compensation. He is open and transparent, just as Jeff Ginn said in his prayer. We currently have 502 staff positions who work to support our over 5,000 missionaries worldwide. Their work involves monumental tasks. We are hoping to reach the goal of 8,000 appointed missionaries in the very near future.
Vice-President Gordon Fort's Report
I always enjoy hearing from Gordon. He is in charge of overseas work for the IMB, and he gave another very informative report.
Gordon said that in 2007 we face three unique opportunities when it comes to fulfilling our mission as the IMB. First, for the only time in the history of the world, the urban population numbers more than the rural population - and urbanization is only increasing. The IMB is investigating opening an urban training center, particularly since most Southern Baptists who are called to the mission field come from rural areas and need to understand the big city.
Second, gospel orality, or the sharing of the gospel to those who cannot read or write is an ever growing challenge. We must continue to be creative in taking the story of the gospel to people who can't understand the written word. I was reminded of what the Apostle Paul wrote as Gordon spoke, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Finally, Gordon told us that ministry to the deaf is a unique opportunity to Southern Baptists simply because the language of the deaf person through signs is universal. Gordon ended by challenging all of us to increase our giving and efforts to see 8,000 missionaries on the fields of the world.
Last Sunday while Rachelle, the kids and I were eating lunch at El Chico, I received an email on my blackberry from Southern Baptist missionaries overseas who minister to the deaf. Their entire family watched our worship service live and told us what a blessing the worship and the preaching were to all of them. I thought to myself as I holstered my blackberry - what a day to be alive in the world. At what other time in history could a Southern Baptist pastor exhort his people from the word of God in rural Oklahoma, have a missionary family in San Salvador, El Salvador listen to the message live over the Internet, and then immediately send a note of encouragement via electronic blackberry to the pastor while he's eating lunch with his family at El Chico.
It's a great day to be alive. It's a great day to be Southern Baptist.
In His Grace,
Wade
91 comments:
Wade,
Unless there are specific rules adopted by the IMB on appeals, an appeal from the decision of the chair requires only a majority vote.
I'm still flabbergasted that blogging is vilified in such a manner. I guess I fail to see the rationale and I don't suffer illogical thought very well.
Thanks for the information. I will research the issue. I am not clear myself, that is why I wrote, "it is my understanding" and my understanding may change.
Wade, I doubt it's the blogging that's the big rub. It's the content and it's the truth and we know that's painful in unfortunately too many circumstances.
The world is too full of go-along to get-along. Thanks for not being that.
Wade,
Blessings on you as you continue to keep us informed.
One slight correction to your post. The president of the FMB mentioned by Carl Johnson was BAKER JAMES Cauthen, not Grady as your post stated. I knew him well since he was president when my wife and I were appointed.
Anonymous,
Thank you for the heads up on Mr. Cauthen's name. It will be corrected.
In Him,
Barbara
Pastor Wade's secretary
Going along to get along always gets my goat. (Hey, Jerry C., that's even if I'm the one doing it!)
I'd press for that vote just to squeeze the truth out of this situation but my spouse would tell me to hush.
Mr. Spock & I are both puzzled by the insistence of entrenched insiders in every bureaucracy to act illogically. Why must personal comfort and friendship always trump reason and fairness? It might be alright if we were talking about the Mayberry RFD library board.
The good Dr. Floyd: ain't he something? God bless & use him greatly anyway.
Steve in Hoptown
steve in hoptown,
do you know dr. floyd? i know him personally. he's a great man of God who is devoted to the Lord. he has led hundreds to Jesus Christ, and served faithfully as a missionary for years. he is very friendly, and he simply tells you how he thinks and believes about things. he is his own man.
if i took your remark wrong, i apologize in advance. but, it looked as if you were putting him down. if you were putting him down, you ought to apologize.
david
Volfan,
I would agree with your assessment. I believe Dr. Floyd has a good heart. We disagree on some, not all, of the issues, but I hold him in high regard.
Wade,
I had two questions I was curious about but do not know if you can answer them.
1) Has there been an explanation given by the IMB as to why there meetings are behind closed doors? If so can you share the reason? By your description, it sounds like we could all benefit from the information in the meetings.
2) Are there any written restrictions against board members blogging or expressing dissent with the board that would preclude a member from receiving assignments? Are there other things that could also cause a member to not receive assignments and would they know what those things were in advance (ie: written down)?
Sorry if these items have been rehashed elsewhere. If so, you can just point me in the right direction.
Thanks.
David,
(1). Forums have been explained as a time for trustees to ask anything they desire with confidentiality ensured. Bylaws strictly FORBID any business from taking place in the forum. The board can vote to move into Executive Session to conduct business, but that is different from the forum. My concerns with closed door forums is that some, if they so choose, could make false allegations - or choose to personally attack individuals - and be given a free pass to say anything they desire - since what they say cannot be reported. I believe if everybody SBC could know ever word that is spoken at SBC agency meetings, then what trustees say would tempered, weighed out thoughtfully, and much more prudent than those words which will forever remain behind closed doors.
As a hypothetical illustration suppose a trustee wished to accuse a missionary of heresy - or a fellow member of gossip or slander - or an administrator of charismatic heresy - but didn't want his words to be 'on the record.' In addition, suppose that trustee making the allegations didn't wish to contact the person with whom he had the alleged 'problem' and simply chose to make the unsubstantiated accusations in front of all trustees - behind closed doors. Suppose nobody had the sense or guts to tell that trustee making the charges to stop. The Southern Baptist Convention would be ignorant of what was said, but there would be a very visible and difficult problem, not assoiciated with the agency's mission, arising among those who are serving as trustees.
Again, this is a hypothetical scenario. Suppose that somebody asked that the allegations be proved, and that to prove them, it would require a public airing of the 'alleged' problems before the entire SBC. What happens then? Well, some might just decide they can't afford to make thing public because the allegations could actually be proven to be false.
I am of the conviction that if someone is not willing to make something known to the SBC at large - then it ought not to be even breathed behind closed doors.
That's why I am against forums and will do everything in my power to end them.
(2). There are no written instructions on why a trustee would not receive a committee assignment. Assignments are at the sole discretion of the chairman.
I too know Dr. Floyd, and if I wrote what I thought. Wade would delete my post. I don't agree with Wade on somethings, but what is happening at the IMB is wrong. Wade there is nothing wrong with emotions. I feel like calling Mr. Floyd and talking to him.
Jeff T
Wade, let me tell you that I appreciate you and all of our trustees for the work you do (though this is in no way an endorsement of any blog)! You (plural) sacrifice much to make these meetings and you come prepared and informed. I think I speak for many colleagues when I say that we are thankful for godly men and women who make decisions about our lives and ministries.
Two items come to my mind as I read this blog. The first is about hunger and disaster relief. I thank God that our board cares about people. Hunger and disaster relief are not offered like bait on a hook. Rather, it is offered as an extension of God’s love. Many however, respond to this love in a way that is tremendous..
The second item would be closed-door sessions. Look, I live in a country where my visa reads, “missionary.” I have total freedom to shout from the rooftops. One day though, one of my sons or daughter may be in a place where that is not so practical and what is said in those meetings might cost them, dearly. I dislike secrecy, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Be blessed,
Frank Lamca
Quito, Ecuador
www.GodLovesQuito.blogspot.com
Thanks for the info Wade. By the way, I am particularly interested in this topic because of false accusations a former pastor of mine endured behind closed doors that ruined his ministry.
10 years later a person stood up in a restaurant when they saw him and confessed that the whole thing was fabricated to run him out. It didn't do much to reverse the ten years of talk though.
Since then I have an aversion to closed door meetings.
--------
One day though, one of my sons or daughter may be in a place where that is not so practical and what is said in those meetings might cost them, dearly. I dislike secrecy, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.
Frank, this is an interesting insight. Thanks for giving me something to chew on.
Merrill and I are proud of you.
Sorry for the double post----I had intended to post this here.
It was said by Wade in posts of old...
“I told John that I would not apologize now and I would not stop blogging. I also told him that I accepted his decision not to appoint me t0 a regional committtee.”
“I will continue blogging for the good of the Southern Baptist Convention and the International Mission Board. I accept your decision to not appoint me to a regional committee."
“(1). I will always tell the truth.”
“(2). I believe the IMB is most effective when we focus on our mission. “
“I do not wish to appeal - there may not, at this time, be enough votes - I honestly don't know.
That is the chairman's perogative and I am not complaining. “
But, I say unto you, if our dear brother even THINKS of an appeal, that the collective of his readership should indeed ask, "what of the above quotes?"
Thank you Wade for your honesty and willingness to drop this subject and topic for GOOD and never speak of it again. At least under the leadership of the current chair. And always remember dear brother, sometimes, 'unhappiness just happens, regardless of your circumstances.' John Piper always says: "God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him, through our LOSSES, not our prosperity.
Oh, just an fyi: the word [committee] only has (2) t's and the word [prerogative] contains an "r" as its second letter (I noticed you forgot it.)
Lastly, before I forget. I had a brilliant idea! For future IMB board meetings, It would be helpful, and much more "transparent" of you, if you could wear a small lapel-cam, and possibly partner with 316networks to do a "live" feed to your blog.
Of course we will close our eyes during which times you "duke it out" with the chair. ;)
ihs,
kmichael
K Michel Chowder,
You come accross as rather pompus. Is this a class you are taking at seminary this semester? Perhaps you have been perfecting your technique over a number of years.
If perfection is your destination you must be years ahead of schedule. I would like to attend one of your perfection seminars in the near future. I am sure that you will pack pews all over the nation.
You must have an autographed photo of Kate Turabian on your nightstand. You must also have a bronze bust of Noah Webster above your mantle.
I notice you are always careful to sign your posts with "ihs." Does this stand for "Insolent, Hypocritical Slander?"
Perhaps you should spend more time in fellowship with Him and less time sharing your "love" for Wade with the readers of this blog.
Bill, thanks for your defense of me, but I wouldn't worry about Michael. I didn't understand a thing he wrote.
:)
EA M,
I am writing anonymously because of security concerns. But I would like to add my comments to the others concerning John Floyd. I have known Dr. Floyd for about 20 years now. Although I don't see him much anymore, I assume he is still the kind, wise, godly man I have known so long.
Whether one agrees with him or not, those who know Dr. Floyd as I feel that I do would have nothing but the utmost respect for his service as a missionary, seminary professor, churchman, and denominational servant. His patient and wise demeanor is perfectly suited for his work as trustee chairman.
To read statements such as, "The good Dr. Floyd: ain't he something?" in reference to a truly good and godly man is insulting to me. I appreciate Wade's defense of Dr. Floyd. Although I know Dr. Floyd does not need Wade or me, or anyone else to defend him, I want to say that I know, love, and respect him. I hope others who post on this blog can, and will, say the same.
"K Michel Chowder,
You come accross as rather pompus. Is this a class you are taking at seminary this semester? Perhaps you have been perfecting your technique over a number of years.
Did you mean:
pompous /ˈpɒmpəs/
–adjective 1. characterized by an ostentatious display of dignity or importance: a pompous minor official.
2. ostentatiously lofty or high-flown: a pompous speech.
3. characterized by pomp, stately splendor, or magnificence.
*********************
I must say that this is likely the kindest thing someone has said to me in awhile.
And, I am not in Seminary as of yet, but hope to begin at Southern by fall of 09. If it is a seminary setting you are after, maybe they will let me give one of my "seminars" as a project in the preaching practicum. :)
Oh, and EVERYONE knows that ihs means "I hate Satan"
:)
kmichael
Wade,
I'm not sure what to say.
You definitely show yourself to be mature in talking with people face to face and in apologizing when you thought you were in the wrong.
I think that if your cause is to win out, it will be because, by God's grace, your integrity protected you.
God Bless
Benji
I do hold Dr. Floyd and his peer at NAMB in high regard and pray that God uses them in glorious work with glorious results for as long as they serve. However, I must admit feeling that to have a man of Wade's value and accomplishment at his disposal and not putting him (& only him, right?) on one of these committees is a waste of resources (illogical? perhaps? maybe not) and I simply assume this comes as a result of needing to maintain amity among board members.
At least Wade is maintaining contacts with many "M"s and the regional offices.
Should Dr. Floyd be bold and put Wade on one of these committees, or show boldness in accepting the role of the blogs? It sounds like his days are full enough as they are. Perhaps the Lord will move in His own way at His own time if this is an important issue.
Yep, my spouse should have told to hush in the first place, apparently.
Steve in Hoptown
"You definitely show yourself to be mature in talking with people face to face and in apologizing when you thought you were in the wrong.
But Benji, Wade admitted on at least 2 occasions in the last 24 hours that he did NOt think he ws in the wrong--hence, he did not apologize. This is why he is being blackballed from the committees. Is that right? Prolly not. But all the trustees are sorry sinners. They are instinctly going to be leary of one in whom they cannot place their trust. (whether their perception is right or wrong.)
I heard an IMB missionary speak today and gained a fresh perspective on just one of the underground works that are going on around the world. this is a small work, it a country that has a long history but has rejected religion and wants little or nothing to do with Jesus. I will pray for this girl and this work daily. My heart is with them and their struggles to get the gospel of Christ to the ears, minds and hearts of all who wil hear and listen.
We have no clue what persecution is.
k
Michael,
Wade stated "Right before the end of the break I APOLOGIZED to Dr. Floyd for allowing too much emotion to come into my conversation with him." (emphasis mine)
I stated "You definitely show yourself to be mature in talking with people face to face and in apologizing WHEN YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE IN THE WRONG." (emphasis mine on my own quote)
You stated "But Benji, Wade admitted on at least 2 occasions in the last 24 hours that he did NOt think he ws in the wrong--hence, he did not apologize."
Therefore, the apology that I am referring to is an apology Wade gave when he thought he was in the wrong, not an apology that Wade did not give because he did not believe he was in the wrong.
Grace
Wade,
I do admire you for your persistent search for the truth, as your blog heading states. Also I appreciate your willingness to serve the convention and the IMB under the circumstances that prevent you from being assigned to a regional committee. Your patience and ability to see the good in less than ideal circumstances is a good example for us all.
But I still do not understand what you have done wrong that you need to apologize for. Perhaps my memory is failing me, but were the charges specified in the accusation by Mr. Floyd?
It seems to me that the punishment does not fit the "crime" and that you are being a scapegoat for all "bloggers" with which some disagree. How un-Christlike to continue to hold grudges against a fellow Christian and servant of the IMB. I confess that I have not been as diligent in praying for our leaders, but now I promise to pray daily for all the trustees, including the chairman. This is a situation that God must resolve, and I do believe he will.
Blessings
I don't know Dr. Floyd, never met him. Several on this thread have testified that he is a good and godly man. Fair enough. However, what I read from Wade is that because Wade refused to apologize, they have refused to appoint him to a committee. That smacks of "do what I want you to do, or I will get you back." You can call it a lack of maturity (it is) or you can call it a sin (it might be) but you can't call it right, or good.
I am sure that the testimonies of Dr. Floyd's character are true, but in this case he is wrong, any way you slice it.
OKC
I assume I am to apologize for 'gossip' and 'slander,' the original 2005 charges which I not only adamantly deny but flew to ST LOIS in 2006 and met with SBC leaders and showed them in detail the basis for everything I have written on this blog. I have never been given the opportunity to speak to the IMB board to defend myself against the charges, but the recommendation from those trustees who were at St Louis with me when I made my presentation was that the entire matter of my removal NOT come before the convention.
Their recommendation to the board to drop the recommendation for my removal was made saying 'trust us.'
It was then, before the board voted to rescind the motion for my removal, that I was asked by a trustee NOT in St Lois to apologize.
I said that I stand by everything that I have written and will NEVER apologize for telling the truth. The IMB board then voted UNANIMOUSLY to rescind the motion.
I didn't apologize then. I won't now.
I only apologize for those things I am guilty of.
Wade
Benji,
Thanks for the clarification. I should have caught that. But as to THAT apology, all one can say is "Grandstanding."
I can assure that, had that been me Wade was talking to, regardless of how the conversation ended, happiness would not have been my first reaction, for posting its contents on the blog is a far cry from:
I accept your decision to not appoint me to a regional committee.
That fact is that Wade does NOT accept this position. He is angry, and he is hurt. I am sure rightly so. But the chair and the trustees must feel violated all the same. I am sure rightly so.
So, I propose assigning Wade as sole trustee to the newly created Northern Canadian, Antartica, Greenland, Siberian Region (NAGS). In this new post, he will certainly stay out of hot water, plus he will still get to travel (literally) around the world.
:)
~K
Michael Crowder: I must admit it is very hard to sit and read your comments concerning Wade. A man you have never met and possibly do not know the whole situation as I have not seen you post in the beginning. You know not what you speak of. Wade is a man of integrity. It has not been easy for him these last two years but he puts people ahead of position. The only thing Wade has done is try to right the wrongs done to potential missionaries by the new policies now guidelines at the IMB. He has made messengers better informed and has never hid behind anonymity. I say this honestly when I say that men like Wade are few, where there should be more like him, and his wife Rachelle who is a woman of grace, love, and integrity, stands proudly by him as does his church. I for one have had many ministers in my lifetime and have never been prouder of any of them as my husband and I are Wade.
And Michael, you should be glad he is as strong in his convictions as he is, you may need him by your side some day, who knows. And you know what, he nor Rachelle wouldn't hesitate to help you. Any of you.
I would not apologize now and I would stop blogging. Just remember that tomorrow is another day. In do time, people will see the light and will thank you for telling it like it is, about what is going on with SBC. “OGF”
Debbie, et al,
Thanks for your comment. In light yours, and other comments, I shall rephrase one paragraph from my post. Here is that corrected (and humbly resubmitted) paragraph:
That fact is that Wade does NOT accept this position. If I were in this same position, I would be angry, and hurt. And rightly so. But the chair and the trustees must feel violated all the same. And rightly so.
It was not (should not have been) my intention to place ill advised emotion to said conversation.
My resubmittal will serve as my official apology.
ihs,
kmichael
Wade,
Due to the fact that we both know my nature is far more choleric than yours you may delete my comment, but before you do please consider the following:
What I am about to say I have said to the person I am speaking of several times. He has knowledge of my position.
I own my words. You own yours. Sometimes we agree. Sometimes we do not. I still consider you a brother, SBC pastor and a conservative one at that.
This is your blog and you control it. I have no beef if you delete me. I do think my comment is my opinion which is public to many already.
So..Here goes.
I have, for some time, believed Jerry Corbaley should resign from the IMB. I believe it more today.
As far as John Floyd is concerned, well.......It is an established fact within the SBC that even great men do wrong things from time to time. I believe that this is one such time for Dr. Floyd.
cb
I do not know if this has been discussed in previous posts and has come to a settled conclusion...so, if it has chalk this post up to a person who lives on a dead-ended side road off of the information super-highway, If the reason that Wade was "punished" was because he spoke out against two proposed policies, which are now, not policies but guidelines, we should be thanking Wade instead of "punishing" him for his attempt to bring some sanity to a process which has gotten out of hand. We who serve on the field appreciate Wade's efforts on these issues.
I do have a proposal for Jerry Rankin...if Wade is not allowed to go to the field in the spring of 2008, why not allow him to host missionaries who are on STAS during that time. I'm sure it would be a whole lot LESS expensive than the "dog and pony shows" being prepared for visiting trustees (many of whom have never encountered missionaries where they work).
Sorry, forgot to sign, again...
A 10-40 Windows Missionary
I am contuing to be amazed at the actions and attitudes of our leaders. It seems that some may have lost sight of (in my opinion) what has been the goal of our convention--cooperation with like-minded churches to share the gospel with the whole world. Have I missed something along the way? When did it become a luxury for leaders of the IMB trustees to allow their own personal feelings to interfere with the on-going work of the IMB and its trustees?
Are they held to a different standard of conduct than the rest of us? Perhaps now we know (or can guess) the reason for many of the closed door sessions. I would guess that these men would not want their constituents to know how their Christianity is being expressed and demonstrated in areas outside their own areas of responsibility.
I am praying intensely for these leaders, that they would rise to the level of their responsibilities to the Convention and its members but more importantly live above the world and its passions and set a standard of behavior and attitude that the rest of us can follow.
Wade,
As one on the field with the IMB I say thanks. Thanks for being man enought to tell the truth and stand up for what you believe in. We need more trustees like you. When I was appointed one of our trustees fell asleep while we were sharing prayer requests and couldn't remember where any of us were going.
Keep blogging and we'll keep praying for the changes that need to happen within the Board.
I am comfortable saying that the little I know of Wade and the little I know of Crowder, I respect Wade and I am disgusted by Crowder.
And it's safe to assume I know just about the same of both of them.
I didn't say I agree with Wade on everything and I am not saying that Crowder has his facts wrong. But that really has nothing to do with it.
If Crowder were my pastor or mentor, I would be ashamed of him and his behavior...whether he is right or wrong factually. From where I sit, he is arrogant and conceited and deserves no respect from the readers here.
If he is a pastor and one of the flock reads this blog, they now have an obligation to pull him aside and use this valuable time to mentor him.
But I'm sure he wouldn't have any of that. He would put them in their place right quick...with a little joke mixed in, of course.
His real colors will be evident again by his forthcoming arrogant comment along with a weak attempt at humor mixed in (which no one is laughing at) as he ridicules those that are trying to bring him to attention to what he is doing to himself while we restrain ourselves from wringing his neck.
I suspect he is a "20's something" trying to "hang with the big boys" and he thinks he has to be a pompous ... to be able to do that.
My only hope now is that he isn't reformed in his theology. For if we have the same theology, that may be enough to drive me back to semi-pelagianism. UGH!!!
Wade - I have a disdain for personal attacks on blogs as much as the next person, but this kat just begs for it.
I spelled "cat" wrong just for you Crowder.
If the reason that Wade was "punished" was because he spoke out against two proposed policies, which are now, not policies but guidelines, we should be thanking Wade instead of "punishing" him for his attempt to bring some sanity to a process which has gotten out of hand.
10-40,
IMHOWIGR, this is one of the most well thought out things I have read on this blog in my whole month or so here.
To Anonymous 13 September, 2007 12:35,
I am not sure how old KMC is, but had blogs been around 20 years ago I could have been him. Maybe time will season him with humility and grace.
SO...
Our IMB trustees must be acting inappropriately under the cloak of anonymity? Would you say they would be better off to retain the anonymity and make allegations against one another or even the chairman, or even the president of the IMB in public (like say posting them on someone else's blog)?
I sense another double standard in the mix. You defend the anonymous professor on SBCOutpost because he fears alleged reprisals of a severe nature, but you want yourself and fellow trustees to 'man up' during meetings. I believe the stated reasons the IMB trustees go into closed forums match up very closely with your defense of Professor Anonymous. Which is it?
Mr. Crowder:
You say Wade is angry and hurt. I take it that'd be your reaction to the same things happening to you. I caution you against concluding that, if that's the case. We do tend to suspect most in others what we see most in ourselves.
Second, have you been around Wade much? I have. I've seen his reaction walking into an extremely unfavorable situation, to him, first hand. His behavior and demenaor were exemplary and Christlike.
His church members and friends affirm that.
What he says, I take to the bank.
Why are the Boards of SBC institutions stocked with employees of other SBC institutions? (Jerry Corbaley is Director of Mission of the North Coast Baptist Association, CA; John Floyd is the Administrative Vice President of Mid-America Baptist Seminary.) The SBC has many million of members and thousands of pastors. It would seem that there are ample qualified people to serve on boards outside those who are staff members of SBC institutions.
Wow Wade, "the conservative purge and resurgence" could be a catchy name. "CR" is kind of plain, and doesn't really lend itself well to catchy slogans. The Conservative Purge and Resurgence on the other hand...
The CPR - maintaining life in the SBC!
If my house is on fire and someone anonymously calls the fire department, I couldn't care less that they were anonymous. I am simply glad someone picked up the phone and called.
Do we want a better mission board, denomination, witness to the world. Then, we must wake up. Otherwise, sleep on.
Robert Welch
CB Scott,
I agree that Jerry Corbaley should resign from the IMB. How he remains a DOM, I don’t know other than he’s in CA.
As for Dr.John Floyd not allowing Wade to set on a committee, it is FEAR of Reprisal from those that put him in the positions that he occuplies.
CB, in your Man Talks on your Blog and elsewhere on these Blogs you use the Term, (Time to COWBOY UP). I believe Wade and some others have Cowboyed up and are taking the Persecution that Paul tells us to expect as a Believer in Jjesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
I Pray that some who profess this same Belief in Christ would start to COWBOY UP!!!
For Reform by being Informed.
In His Name
CB and Wayne,
I do not agree about Jerry resigning from the IMB. Jerry represents a viewpoint that is as valid as mine. I am hopeful we can get to the day when people with differing views can cooperate with each other rather than one side seeking to exclude the other.
Scott,
The difference between the professor and trustees being anonymous is summed up in one word - livelihood.
The professor must feed his family. Trustees have other jobs.
Well, there you go again.
I've now had the opportunity to hear Dr. Rankin's report and Jerry Corbaley's statement. Reading your 'perspective' on this issue, you, Wade, criticize Jerry for a lack of specifics when it comes to his accusation of slander at Outpost. On the other hand, Professor Anonymous offers no specifics in his allegations toward Dr. Mohler (at best the report is a second-hand generalization given that individual may likely not even be a professor at Southern). The vague 'professor's' vagueness receives no criticism...instead I see affirmation of (or at least deference toward) 'his' position.
Again I must ask the question:
Which is it? Anonymity or Ownership? Specifics or Generalities?
By Grace Alone
I've now had the opportunity to hear Dr. Rankin's report and Jerry Corbaley's statement.
Is this posted somewhere? I'm sure we would all like to read it.
Regarding the anonymous seminary prof, have there been several firings/induced resignations at the two named seminaries - & are they a higher number than usual?
David,
You can listen to Dr. Rankin's report to the trustees by clicking here.
Wade,
I read Grace and Truth to You as often as I can. I am amazed at the reason why you weren't appointed to a regional committee. Apparently, forgiveness is something that the IMB leaders don't accept or exercise in their Christian life. Thanks for speaking up for Southern Baptists such as myself who want to hear the truth!!
Thanks for the link. I'll listen to the audio tonight.
Just so I am clear-the Plenary Session is the public Executive Session and the Forum in private is completely different.
Is that correct?
Also, one last thought. Due to the situation i mentioned earlier (which was in another denomination) as well as other unfortunate events, I have always had a bad taste in my mouth for denominations. I have a disgust for the politicking.
On the other hand, I recognize the great good that can be done through a cooperative effort of like-minded believers. And I mean more than just missions though I would certainly place that high on the list.
I guess I said that to say this. I gladly left a denom because of disgust. I stayed non-denom for a long time. I currently attend an sbc church through which I have been ordained (again).
While I have great respect for the literally millions of honest and sincere fallible men and women of God involved in the sbc, I am saddened to see the same kind of politics that ran me off from another denom. I know it is everywhere, I just dont like it.
It also makes me re-think to what extent I want to get waist deep with these people. I'm not sure who pollutes the waters more - me or them.
Wade-next time you come to OKC it would be my great honor to treat you to lunch. Seriously. Contact me when you are heading this way.
I wouldnt mind doing lunch with the rest of you either. But I'm not promising to buy for the rest of ya! :)
As I continue to close-let's continue to preach Jesus in humility and pray for each other.
Bob,
I am not sure what you mean by this:
""I take it that'd be your reaction to the same things happening to you. I caution you against concluding that, if that's the case. We do tend to suspect most in others what we see most in ourselves.
Secondly,
You say this:
"Second, have you been around Wade much? I have. I've seen his reaction walking into an extremely unfavorable situation, to him, first hand. His behavior and demenaor were exemplary and Christlike. "
I have never met Wade, nor have I ever made comment to his actions in public, or his demeanor. I have more respect for Wade than you realize--as a man of God, competent leader and pulpiteer. He maintains a demeanor of class second to few. (as far as one can tell from the various forms of electronic media on which he is captured)
Additonally, I have never called into question Wade's integrity, but have rather pointed out some obvious inconsistencies between his orthodoxy and orthopraxy. This only deals with integrity if the difference is intentional.
I can also tell you that MOST problems in the church and in society exist only because of there amplification by a few. I find this to be the case with Wade, Ben, et al.
But Wade seems to lead this new group of libertarian/conservative Baptists only by the nature of his trusteeship, sucessful pastorate, and charismatic personality. None of which are bad, and none of which makes one makes one right.
This is the blog in question, the blog to which the trustees take issue with and whose author sometimes says thing that are best left unsaid. We are not called to be reporters, we are called to spread the Gospel. There are too many views in the convention to open IMB polity up to the flock as a whole. "The crowd is always wrong" We elect trustees to rule by proxy under the direction of the Holy Spirit. We also understand that sin takes us all down the slippery slope of liberalism and we must constantly fight to keep "the ship afloat" to borrow Patterson's analogy......but I digress (prolly cuz of sin) :)
My point is, this is where the information comes from, and thus, this is where the discension should remain.
I love blogs, I think they are the greatest thing since the printing press. I even think debate and discussion are healthy--as well as an argument or two. As long as in the end they do one thing--bring God's people around the country and world to work together for the greater good of the kingdom.
I would still, though, like to hear about some mission topics such as orality, and the new forms of missions taking place around the world. I am amazed at how missions has changed in my lifetime. But I also wonder if it is for the better. are we embracing other cultures while we are still afraid to share Christ one on one? Are we hiding our light under a bushel in places like Europe in an effort not to offend? These are the answers I am looking for. I would appeal to Wade to change the focus of your blogging to things such as these. Discussion can occur while at the same time respecting the majority rule of the board.
Ok I am done...but btw, I am 32, not a pastor (but in training) and I hold to those reformed doctrines which line up with Scripture. :)
ihs,
kmichael
Bill,
I really appreciate your defense, but, like David's words to his faithful servant Abishai, I say to you, "Let him alone, the Lord hath bidden him to speak."
KMichael,
I wish to disagree with a couple of things you've mentioned. I will do so respectfully and it is only my personal view.
First, "I can also tell you MOST problems in the Church and in society exist only because of there [sic] ampification by a few.."
I could not disagree more forcefully than I do. The problems of racism, child abuse, sexual abuse, spousal abuse, and a myriad of other problems that have been confronted in our present day, both in society and the Church, were there, albeit under cover, in benign decades such as the fifties, and were not confronted. When someone did say something they were hushed up as trouble makers, told they were lying, or generally told to submit to someone who was their spiritual authority. I dare say in whatever church you're a part of now there are a multitude of these kinds of problems. There, yet hidden. I trust when brought to the light they will be dealt with graciously and biblically, protecting the victims and correcting the evil doers. As I said, there have been those few who became courageous enough to be vocal. They were/are often maligned for doing so but the problems were/are not often addressed.
It is a known fact that churches, families, mariages, even Conventions will be only as healthy as they are willing to do away with secrecy. Someone said you have to learn to dance with family skeletons to learn to be a real family. That means they've got to come out of the closet. No one likes it. It's hard, dirty work. But health demands it. I don’t think the problem is really the ones who call attention to what’s there. It’s those who do the deeds in question and those who say nothing about it.
Second, when one is elected as a trustee there is a weight of responsibility placed on them to truly represent all the people even with words that are corrective when things are present that need correcting. All of us wish to hear reports of wonderful things happening. Some bear the responsibility of dealing with dirty things so those wonderful things can happen. Forty years of pastoring have taught me that and any other pastor can testify to it also I’m sure.
Forty-eight years of a marriage that has become a wonderful thing because of a wife who refused to NOT speak the truth in love and, by being willing to do so, helped to ultimately bring about a truly biblical relationship. This shows it is possible to work through ugly stuff even in a marriage to the wonderful also. There was some dirty work needed by both of us to get to wonderful. When I hear a couple say we've never argued, I want to see which one died the day after their wedding. We must never think the wonderful comes without the dirt.
Paul knew it was necessary for the Corinthians, the Galatians, Timothy and Ephesus to face and honestly deal with their dirt. Some might have wished he's just tell them how his missionary trip went, but there were other things needed. That work kind of dirty work may very well be needed in the SBC. Many of us believe it is.
Third, the difference between the orthos [doxy and plexy] would need to be specifically pointed out to me. How has Wade's behavior differed from his belief? I think not. I realize this may be one of those tomato/ tomatoe things where one says/sees it one way, another a different way. We just view it differently here. That's OK. I don't believe we have to agree on another person's behavior whether it's a fired Professor or a Committee Chairman or Wade's as a trustee. But we will love each other and those mentioned if the love of Christ dwells in us.
Much of what I’m saying is out of fifty yeas of battling the enemy and discovering that often times we are our own worst enemy and will remain so unless we face our problems and issues with courage and integrity. I believe that is being done by many who are/will pay a price that has always been paid by those who are willing to champion the causes that need correcting.
I trust your ministry training will go well. My prayers are with you and your family. Thank you for the opportunity for dialogue.
Paul,
The day has certainly been fun, but as since Wade is totally ignoring me, and as his blog following (part of the SBC blog commentators lay circut club) has nothing good to say toward me. I think I shall get to reading and studying Greek flash cards. But one final point before I go.
Transparancy is the word of the day. I happen to like the word. I happen to agree with using the EC's model as a model for the IMB. there was an older man in the church in which I grew up who would always say in business meetings: "an informed people, are a better people."
To be honest I forget why I think Wade needs to apologize, but I remember thinking it back when he posted and said things he should not have (at least from my perspective at the time). But I likewise feel that Dr. Floyd needs to apoint Wade to a region (a real one) and find his pettiness to be appalling.
So lets say for moment that all that is fixed..."presto!" What's gonna be next? Allowing m's to consume alcohol in order to "blend in" with the culture? Allowing women to pastor imb missions? Widespread use of the camel book and orality??????
I agree with your last post Bro. Paul and gladly change the word MOST to SOME....as long as you understand I did not mean to include all of the social issues you stated. Thus, the debate is now over my issue vs. your issue.....as it has been all along.
I guess one could say that I have no right to comment and point out a Sr. Pastor's errors. A man who is by all accounts my elder, brother, and a leader in the denomination to which my local church affiliates and the same denomination to which I will be ordained. Yes, one could say that. But then let us hope that the word of the day tomorrow is consistency. For could not one say the same of Wade to all of the posts (err....problem reports)to those who are his elders, brothers, contemporaries, and more senior leadrship within the convention? Yes, one could say that. The only difference is, my excellent humor. :)
ihs,
kmichael
Michael,
I want to tell you that I am sorry. I thought about commenting today on this blog that I thought you had a dry sense of humor that could be taken the wrong way. I did not do it, but I think I should have.
The internet hides tone of voice and facial expressions. Hence I could see you being taken the wrong way.
But I love a dry sense of humor. I have a friend who has that kind of humor and that guy cracks me up.
Anyway, I think I should have said something, but did not and so from this Wade supporter, I say...
I'm Sorry
God Bless
Benji
KMichael,
You not only can but, in my opinion, should point out differences of opinions and errors in whatever I might say that you see is said in error or think differently about.
Reciprocity is essential between family members__ and you and I ARE family__ if relationships are ever to grow.
I will learn much from whatever is said as long as we both can speak openly and respectfully. It is that openness and respectfulness and all being willing to speak in such a manner that is needed in large dosages in Baptist life today. Let's start with our small spot of commenting in the blog world in accomplishing it, OK?
Scott you said,
"Why are the Boards of SBC institutions stocked with employees of other SBC institutions? (Jerry Corbaley is Director of Mission of the North Coast Baptist Association, CA; John Floyd is the Administrative Vice President of Mid-America Baptist Seminary.) The SBC has many million of members and thousands of pastors. It would seem that there are ample qualified people to serve on boards outside those who are staff members of SBC institutions."
My question for you, when did eithe r Mid-America Baptist Seminary or a Baptist Association become an entity of the SBC?
First of all, thank you for continuing to serve and for continuing to blog about trustee meetings. I think this is information that those of us who are helping to pay the bills are entitled to know, and I do not understand the stubborn resistence that the conservative resurgence appointed trustees have to this kind of open exchange. The only reason I can think of for this kind of behavior is fear that if Southern Baptists find out what is going on, they will want a change of leadership.
You may not want to say it, but I will. Keeping you from serving on a regional committee as some sort of punishment because you did not bend to the will of some self-appointed dictatorship is childish.
I would like to thank k.michael crowder for letting me know what "ihs" means. Somehow I missed this at seminary. Bro Paul should have taught me this when he was my pastor at Southcliff. I'm glad to get this burden off my shoulders.
Oh, and thank you for the report Wade!
David Spriggs
I'm pretty new here, and have to admit, blissfully ignorant to the inner workings of the IMB. Out West, we're not as connected to it, so I am getting an education through your blog, and by the pasionate posts of your readers. I guess I kind of feel left out on all this controversy, so, sticking to my SBC roots, I'll jump on where I can...
Wade, what were you thinking of by eating at El Chico? My fundamental belief in quality dining leads me to believe you know nothing of good Mexican Food. PLEASE RESPOND.
Okay, I'm mostly kidding.
I have eaten at El Chico, and it's satisfactory, but come to Vegas, and I'll take you to get some REAL Mexican Food.
Thanks for the posts!
Gracias, Senor, and Adios...
Crowder - Trying to mend fences and it all goes for naught due to your arrogance hanging on by a thread. You won't learn, and yet you have so much to learn.
An example? Sure, no problem.
You said, "What's gonna be next? Allowing m's to consume alcohol in order to "blend in" with the culture?"
-hehe- It happens every Lord's Supper here in Europe my friend.
Take wise mentorship from those around you and perhaps you will grow out of this stage you are in. It's not too late, even at 32.
Also, I'm glad you worded your theological view like you did...i.e. reformed as long as it lines up with scripture. Now I can stay secure in my reformed view while not being quite sure if our views line up exactly...which gives me a warm fuzzy.
k. michael crowder,
you wrote
So lets say for moment that all that is fixed..."presto!" What's gonna be next? Allowing m's to consume alcohol in order to "blend in" with the culture?
Some of us live in cultures where alcohol is drank normally. It's not a "sin"to drink. Say what you want but our view on alcohol is more cultural than biblical. Be careful when you try to apply American Christianity to the world, it often doesn't work.
Widespread use of the camel book and orality??????
It's already being used all over the world. Orality..... where I work 60% of the men and 80% of the women are illiterate. There are two books of the bible in print. I guess we should wait generations until we can teach people to read and finish translating scriptures. What's a few more people in hell?
You sound passionate but you need some experience to help effectively shape your opinions.
Wade, Thanks for serving on the IMB board. I appreciate your heart for missions, and for truth. Blessings to you.
Jeff T
I have eaten at El Chico, and it's satisfactory, but come to Vegas, and I'll take you to get some REAL Mexican Food.
David,
Puhleeeze! VEGAS for authentic mexican food? Are you kidding me? I've been to Vegas. I know Vegas. And Vegas sir does not...
Oh, got sidelined, sorry.
I completely agree El Chico is nothing to write home about. But we here in Oklahoma may be second only to Texas for incredible and relatively authentic mexican food. I am sure Wade has had the real stuff. But if he was stuck in NC, El Chico may have been the best he could do.
:)
Now THIS is my kind of debate!
Love & Mercy
dbm
Come on guys real Mexican food can only be found at Taco Bell.
Jeff T
David,
True story. In my first year at Seminary I would drive down to Ft. Worth from my Oklahoma pastorate leaving a wife and three kids, Wade was the middle one, and all the money [very little] we had.
I would buy one box of cereal and one quart of milk to last tuesday through Friday til I got home again. [I stayed in the basement of the men's dorm on a cot.] But I had cash for one meal otherwise. I ALWAYS ate lunch at El Chicos on Seminary Drive because it was an "all you can eat" thing for a dollar fifty. You can only imagine.
Meanwhile, several times the money left at home didn't stretch to Friday and Mary, my wife, would take the three kids and pick up pecans and sell them to have supper when I got home on Friday evening.
Now I have kleenex for all you who are properly in tears and have just provided foundation for the charge by some that somewhere along the way I lost my mind. Now you know why...SEMINARY. :)
BUT I LOVE EL CHICOS.
Make that "lunch on Wednesday noon ONLY" and my sob story will make sense. [In other words, I had one meal that week other than cereal at breakfast.]
It so affected me I can't tell it correctly. :)
Great story Paul!
Except for one thing-I thought all preachers wore rolexes and drove cadillacs. How could you have possibly been broke.
I aint buying it.
:)
Wade-
You are ENTIRELY too gracious.
Wade;
I continue to be flabbergasted and greatly angered by the board's refusal to appoint you to any committees. I have followed these issues since you became a trustee and am still convinced that you have done nothing wrong.
I, too, know Dr. Floyd, having sat under him as a professor at MABTS. I can also attest to his love for Jesus and his passion for missions and personal witness. But I do not believe that this should cover his apparent political wrangling as chairman of the board of trustees. He clearly, and some others, seeks to punish you for uncovering unbiblical practices and policies at the board for the good of the SBC.
Stand firm, Wade. God keeps an accurate record on all of us.
I did not say that orality was wrong, save when it is used alone without the effort to develop a language in he hert language of the people.
Btw, no one will end up in hell who is not supposed to be there. You do your job right and leave the results and timing up to God.
As to exporting "American Christianity".....we are to export the gospel. Paul never changed the message nor the intensity of the proclaimation by "being all things to all people." I am all for a strategy to spread the Word, that is not the issue here---and you are being disingenuous by suggesting otherwise. Euopean christianity and culture on the other hand....now there something every believer ought to emulate... *rolls eyes*
michael stover,
when you said this....."But I do not believe that this should cover his apparent political wrangling as chairman of the board of trustees. He clearly, and some others, seeks to punish you for uncovering unbiblical practices and policies at the board for the good of the SBC.
please tell me how you know that dr. floyd is political wrangling? how do you know that he's clearly seeking to punish wade? how do you know that any of the others are seeking to punish wade? do you have info. that none of the rest of us have? can you look into the hearts of people? i really would like to know how you know these things to be true?
and, pray tell, what things are they doing which are unbiblical?
david
k. michael crowder:
19Though I am free and belong to no man, I make myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. 20To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. 21To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. 22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. 1 Cor 9
Greg
I know see your problem Crowder. It took me a while, but I finally clicked on your link and I see that your favorite books are The Purpose Driven Life and The Purpose Driven Church.
All your ridiculous comments and silly humor make perfect sense now.
You will be clueless, but most others here will know what I'm talking about.
My apologies as I move on.
Anonymous,
Your comment indeed does not make sense. Rick Warren's vibe would be more along the cant we all just get along mode than KMC's.
I think your logic doesnt add up. Maybe it was just an attempt at humor.
Btw, I like PDL.
Anon,
You really ought to let us know who you are. What does being pupose driven have to do with any of this?
I am not clueless. I can defend the seeker-sensitive movement all the while affirming the 5 points point of calvinism and still remain true to scripture (and understand that not all SS's and 5 pointers have it all right, in their own right nor do I have it all right with my pov. I think it was William Carey who called it evangelical calvinism, and it was the late Dr. Kennedy who was quoted as saying (I just read this quote yesterday) "God will forgive you if you happen to lead one of the unelect to Christ" In other words, preach it to all....preach it fast, and preach it furious--but preach it correct, and from God's Word (sola scriptura)
But then this is totally off topic.
You really ought to email me and we can continue this convo...
kmichael
ps you can also post anon on my blog as long as you indentify yourself in some manner--I have a couple names you can use. ;)
Here is a great discernment tool for PDL.
http://cicministry.org/berean.php
K - I post anon because of missionary status. I usually include a logo, I just haven't done it with our exchange because the exchange itself isn't carrying much weight with me. To be frank, I didn't even realize I wasn't including the sig on these last couple of posts.
Due to your arrogance with sarcastic attempts at humor to "offset" the insults and arrogance, I am not close to wanting to have an ongoing conversation with you about anything, much less Warren and his showtime. My only hook into carrying it this far is to try to get you to see how your arrogance is overwhelming to most people and it always will be. It would have been nice to see it subside somewhat. However, it's not happening and the last thing I want to do is drown in it more by going to your blog.
Let's move on. I want to.
KM Crowder,
Few things....
You said in one of your posts that you were going to seminary to prepare you for ministry. You sound alot like I did a few years ago....cocky, arrogant and self-righteous. That's my perception of you based on your writing style. You may not be like that at all but in real life perception is reality. So if that's truly who you are skip seminary and let God develop within you character traits like He has. If you're not already involved in ministry you don't need to go to seminary. Seminary doesn't develop your leadership style, character or interpersonal savvy. Those things and others are vital to ministry. Seminary only provides information. Most Christian leaders around the world never attend seminary they learn about God through experience.If you have to choose one over the other choose character.
Second, as far people going to hell goes.... I'm glad it doesn't matter what I do. I'm sick of living somewhere that bombs go off every month and kill people. I'm tired of learning Arabic and trying to understand the culture. My kids are definitely ready to see their grandparents again and to attend a school where the kids look like them. I'm glad that nothing that I do matters, whoever is going to hell is going to hell. (note the sarcasm).
And lastly as far as exporting American Christianity goes. We do try to export it. Why can't missionaries drink in cultures where it's acceptable for Christians to drink. The Bible speaks against drunkeness not drinking. We're "Southern" Baptists which means we're against drinking. Why don't we go against gluttony (watch the waistlines at the next convention) or pride (watch most of our guys preach) or hatred (look at the way we respond to homosexuals and the way we treat anything new God is doing...)
Do you have your own blog? Maybe we can continue conversations there.
It is amazing to me how one can claim another is arogant solely on the basis of a difference of opinion. Secondly the whole, "I used to be like you" bit is more than arrogant. And then we come to the ad hominems and the assumption that I should not attend seminary or enter the ministry. I relish what God will do to me over the next few years. I even embrace humility in all things for Christ. But I also embrace confidence in the truth He has given. I seem arrogant to you and other pastors seem arrogant because the world and the church have become a society of taoistic pacifists. We reject authority and absolute truth.
What I find interesting here is that I have sparked a conversation with 2 anon m's. One, who we will call "Anti-Warren, hyper-Calvinist jerk" and the other we will call "Same view as the first but with a little more Grace"
To Anti-Warren: ya we are pretty much done, but, if you are accually ON the mission field and carry that much anger to those different from you, or those who have such differing beliefs as you, how did you ever pass the psych exam and the interviews at the IMB? Did you lie just so you could carry your hate rhetoric around the world???
To Same view w/ Grace: While you appear to have the same view of me as "Anti-Warren," you at least seem to have a spirit of grace and the ability to converse without lobbing direct, offensive attacks. I would very much like to continue the converation and you can comment on my blog here.
Maybe my assumptions of some missions techniques are incorrect--then enlighten me as to why booze is a much needed missiological tool...etc
To all: I think a redef of the word arrogant might be in order in most commentators minds. For it appears to me, that most of you would consider Mohler, Moore, Patterson, Piper, Sproul....and even Fuller, Edwards, Spurgeon, and Carey to be arrogant. Why heck, many would believe Wade to be arrogant (from perception at least). Folks, I gladly join the ranks of these fine arrogant men. May God use me to in a lovingly, convident and arrogant way, to proclaim the gospel and denounce sin to a world wrought in self-pity and diseased with arrogance of a different kind. (with gentleness and respect of course)
Either God has made a mistake in ALL of the men he has called, or, He has placed with in them all, the ability to speak the truth that pierces the hearts of the heathen and changes some and makes others of them lash out in anguish as the Perfect Word comes in contact with their sinful heart.
Please stand for pray...
k
Crowder,
At least you labeled me with the word "grace". Do you have any ministry experience? You're amazingly quick to judge things and people that you know little about. When I said that you sound like I did before I said it in humility. I was cocky, arrogant and judgemental for years and hurt alot of people. God allowed me to be broken and that changed me forever.
You need to be careful in your judgements against others. You're falling into the "if you're not for us you're against us." This is what you sound like. Because I question you. you lable me a pacisfist that doesn't believe in absolute truth. This is what is wrong with the SBC at this point. I've got your blog address but I'm not sure if I want to dialogue with you at this point.
Crowder said - "It is amazing to me how one can claim another is arogant solely on the basis of a difference of opinion."
Crowder - You are seriously ignorant if you think any of this has to do with any opinion you might have on anything. The rest of your rant is simply vintage "arrogant Crowder" and I am not addressing anything else you said. I couldn't care less what you believe about me, the IMB, my exam score, what I had for supper, or what I will do tomorrow. But this first sentence I have highlighted reveals your ignorance.
Has it occured to you that no issue has really been developed about your opinion on anything you have said?
You see, K, no one can get passed your arrogance. They don't even care about your opinion because they can't get there to discuss it. Your arrogance is a roadblock to having a discussion with any of us on things you are desperately trying to bring up amidst all your arrogance. (Calvinism, alcohol use, etc...In fact, you sound desperate.)
The problem is all about you. Not your opinion. Frankly, it's personal.
Not one of the people (at least 5 now) that has tried to bring your attention to your problem has cared one lick about your views on a matter. We are not jousting with you over theology...or how to best serve the SBC. We are trying to bring your attention to your pathetic arrogance in everything you write.
But you won't have it.
And then you ask us to come join you?
Are you serious?
I now know that you are here at a very popular blog acting like an idiot to try and stir up activity for your blog.
I guarantee you that I will never know what your home page looks like.
Now, having said that, do you know what "move on" means?
Before I said that's what I wanted to do. Well, now that's what I am doing.
Anonymous,
From from anonymous "m" to another. Well written. I hope he can see through his "us versus them" glasses and allow the Lord to work in His life. Thanks for saying well what I thought. Maybe we can move on to another subject that merits our discussion for Crowder does not.
Stay faithful!
It is not my intention to "drum up business" for my blog. If that were that case, I might accually spend time writting about substantial topics, but instead I only use it to collect links and occationally post a musing or two. If it is content you are looking for, or rantings, or news--do not go to my blog! Its a sad excuse for a blog, but its fun none the less.
As for me being arrogant, I have now come to the conclusion that this is your red herring. You cannot stand that someone has an opinion contrary to your own. Does the fact that I am not a foreign missionary negate me from entering the discussion? Or is it the fact that no one on this blog really cares about the REAL issues effecting IMB missionaries?
I have been seriously thinking today about how Peter and Paul must have interacted in all their time together. I am going to do some research into the subject. I have a feeling there has always existed a strange dichotomy between the Peters and Pauls throughout history. The Peters maintain the consistency and conformity to the Word, and the Pauls spread the Word fastly and furiously--saving the lost at any cost (the real Paul of course accomplished both). Question: Is it not the Peters who send the Pauls?
If you read back through my posts exegetically and not eisegetically, you will find that is not arrogance but a complete and total belief in the supremecy of Christ and the sufficiency of Scripture IN ALL THINGS that makes me tick. And those views which hold to either in any less light make me "ticked."
It IS about the issues. Please be intentional about that. If you lined up with me completely, you would not be flying off the handle such that you are.
k
I have a feeling there has always existed a strange dichotomy between the Peters and Pauls throughout history. The Peters maintain the consistency and conformity to the Word, and the Pauls spread the Word fastly and furiously--saving the lost at any cost (the real Paul of course accomplished both). Question: Is it not the Peters who send the Pauls?
KMC,
I have been trying to refrain this week from getting embroiled in blog debates. I read this about a half hour ago and started to say something and then stopped.
I just can't shake this though.
Is there any way you can clarify what in the world you are getting at in this comment?
I recognize that you made a caveat that Paul acheived success in both adhering to scripture and spreading the gospel quickly (though I'm not sure by what standard you judge his work as quick), but it seems to me that there is an overt implication in your statement that Paul's kind of work is somehow less than optimum.
Please note that I did not say you are implying this about "Paul's work" but about "Paul's kind of work," ie-quickly spreading the gospel. However, there also seems to be an implication that Peter is superior to Paul in your statement. Is that your position?
Is there some problem with quickly spreading the gospel? I would quibble for days that Paul's efforts were not really "quick" but that is beside the point. What if they were? What is the problem?
And I have no idea what to make of the comment that the Peter's send the Paul's. Paul began preaching before Peter even knew he had converted. And Paul also had to correct Peter's theology on at least one occasion.
I could sleep better if you could clarify your point on this.
Thanks!
David,
You are readng too much into my post. "the Fast and the Furious" is a movie and a good analogy to describe Paul. He didn't mess around. Sometimes founding churches within months of first contact.
My last question was posed as it should have been but to rephrase, is it not the churches who send the missionaries. Are they not ultimately accountable to the churches (yaya--second to Christ--I get that).
Anyway, get some sleep...and don't be late to SS!
k
Wade,
If I may regress to the original portion of your post, I thank you for your insight into the workings of the IMB and I pray that your influence and desire for transparency will be contagious.
As for the latter portion of the comments, my faith in Baptists to be completely 'cooperative' when it comes to debating food is restored! I do wait for the day when we as Baptists 'break bread' and someone in the SBC will attempt to 'fix it'. *grin*
Wade,
This Okie has never met Drs. Floyd, Corbaley, and other establishment leaders in the IMB, and has no reason to question their basic faith in Christ. They may be gentlemen who generally exude friendliness, good hearts, a passion for Christian missions, and a willingness to serve Christ in the ministries to which He has called them. However, none of these qualities provide defacto exemption from them being accountable for words and deeds concerning their initial attempts to personally attack you, and impugn your character while attempting to quash your dissenting views regarding the policy changes adopted by the IMB BOT in late 2005.
Neither does their position of authority as leaders of an SBC entity entitle them to immunity from accountability or criticism for unfair, and abusive acts toward IMB Trustees who fail to express lapdog agreement with the aforementioned policy changes the aforementioned leaders had previously rammed through the IMB BOT.
Furthermore, it is ironic and curious that Dr. Floyd demanded an apology from you (whether from pressures within the IMB BOT or elsewhere, or from other motives).
Moreover, Dr. Corbaley's unapologetically harsh and inaccurate remarks to Dr. Rankin at the IMB BOT plenary session are, in themselves, a contradiction to any claim of civil Christian discourse. (By the way, Wade, this Okie takes friendly exception to your generous observation that "Jerry represents a viewpoint that is as valid as mine." Rather, Dr. Corbaley's view on blogs is invalid on its face, since he failed to provide any specific evidentiary proof to support his view.)
That fact, coupled with Dr. Floyd's unapologetical, ultimatum-like conditions to you, constitute anything but qualities which have been graciously ascribed to these men in previous comments on this thread. Others may gullibly excuse said offensive deeds and words, giving them a preemptory free pass, but this Okie trusts that the Southern Baptist Convention will, one day, hold all entity officials fully accountable for their conduct.
In His Grace and Peace,
T. D. Webb
Post a Comment