Thursday, April 19, 2007

Are the Sisters Free to Function? by Jon Zens

The copyrighted article below is written by reformed Baptist pastor and author Jon Zens and copied here, with permission, for your edification and comment. Read it carefully. Notice the author's love for Scripture's authority, sufficiency and veracity. Pay close attention to the author's refusal to place tradition or the opinions of fourth century church fathers above sola Scriptura. I believe we Southern Baptists need to be very, very careful before labeling anyone with differing views of women as 'liberal,' 'heretics,' or even 'moderates.' It is possible for conservative evangelicals to disagree on this subject, as it is other subjects, but we should be careful that it does not divide our evangelical missions and ministry cooperation. Jon closes his article with this sentiment: "May we have grace and humility to search the Scriptures together in order to see what is indeed really so." Amen. I predict this little article will become a classic on the subject.
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Are the Sisters Free to Function?
An Exploration of Paul’s Concerns in 1 Timothy 2:11-15
Jon Zens



In the history of the church 1 Timothy 2:12 has been used unrelentingly as a proof-text to swiftly and decisively squelch the ministry of women in fellowships. In 1987, the assembly Nancy Sehested pastored was put out of the Memphis Association of Southern Baptist Churches, and 1 Tim.2:12 was used as a key part of the basis for this decision. In 2006 Sheri Klouda was let go from Southwestern Theological Seminary in Ft. Worth, Texas. She taught Hebrew at the seminary, but – based on 1 Tim.2:12 – it was concluded that women should not be “teaching men.”

An honest examination of the evidence will reveal that the traditional use of 1 Tim.2:12 to silence female believers is without warrant; as a result untold harm has been done to the health of Christ’s body on earth. Everyone admits that 1 Tim.2:11-15 is attended with difficulties at every level – contextual, cultural, linguistical, grammatical and conceptual. Nevertheless, for those who truly desire light from God’s Word, enough clarity can be uncovered to show the key fallacious assumptions and to expose the prejudices that lie behind the traditional understanding of 1 Tim.2:12. It truly has been used to abuse half the priesthood of believers. There is no excuse for Bible teachers and church leaders to continue their misguided application of this passage.

How Does the New Testament As A Whole View Women?

Before coming to 1 Tim.2:12, which is often seen as a restrictive text regarding females, it is imperative for us to review the overwhelmingly positive picture of Abraham’s daughters painted in the New Testament (Luke 13:16). This information cannot be dismissed or forgotten when reflecting on two passages, 1 Cor.14:34-35 and 1 Tim.2:12, that mention concerns about some sisters.

**Neither the Gospel narratives nor the recorded words of Jesus ever put restrictions on the ministry of women.

**Jesus fully accepted women as his disciples and they accompanied him in his travels with the male disciples (Luke 8:1-3). These women also supported the mission of Jesus with their own resources. These facts may be much more significant that it initially appears. In the first century it was unheard of for a Jewish rabbi to have female followers. Luke reports this rather matter-of-factly, yet this band of women, men and Jesus was hardly kosher to the curious onlookers as they went from city to village.

**After Simeon took the baby Jesus in his arms and saw God’s salvation, Anna the prophetess “gave thanks to God and spoke of him [Jesus] to all the ones expecting redemption in Jerusalem” (Luke 2:25-38). Anna did not just proclaim Christ to women, but to “all.”

**Jesus applauded the evangelistic efforts of the Samaritan woman (John 4:35-38). After experiencing a revelation of Jesus, she left her jar at the well and went to her city telling men, women and children about the Messiah (John 4:28-29). Everyone in Sychar knew about her history of broken relationships, yet she boldly proclaimed Jesus as the Messiah – a Redeemer even for those outside of Judaism!

**In the context of Jesus’ crucifixion the male disciples fled, yet the women were present and they helped in his burial (Matt.27:55-56,61; Mark 15:40-41; Luke 23:55-56; John 19:25-27).

**A woman’s testimony was disallowed as evidence in first century courts. Yet the Lord chose females to be the first witnesses and proclaimers of his resurrection (John 20:1-2, 11-18; Luke 24:1-11, 22-24; Mark 16:1-8; Matt.28:1-11).

**After Christ’s ascension, 120 men and women prayed together and chose a replacement for Judas Iscariot (Acts 1:14-15).

**The Spirit came upon the 120 disciples and they spoke the wonderful works of God in many foreign languages (Acts 2:1-4).

**Some thought that what was occurring on the Day of Pentecost was evidence of too much wine, but Peter insisted that it was a fulfillment of what Joel prophesied would come to pass – “your sons and daughters will prophesy….I will pour out my Spirit on my male and female slaves and they will prophesy” (Acts 2:17-18). There is no suggestion that males may prophesy freely, but that females are restricted in some ways.

**Philip the evangelist had four virgin daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:9). We would not be wrong in assuming that there were many other sisters who had this gift, not just Philip’s offspring.

**Paul entrusted his letter to the Romans to Phoebe, and she delivered it. She was a deacon in the assembly at Cenchrea and Paul had the highest regard for her (Rom.16:1-2). Paul recognized her as a prostatis, which carried with it the idea of leadership (cf. 1 Thess.5:12).

**Paul designated Priscilla and Aquila as his “co-workers” (Rom.16:3). The same word is used with reference to people like Timothy and Titus.

**Junia and Andronicus (wife/husband or sister/brother) were greeted by Paul as “outstanding among the apostles” (Rom.16:7). They were his relatives and had been in prison with him. There were people called “apostles” who were not among the Twelve, like Barnabas. Junia was also among such apostolic workers. There is no reason to think that she was the only such female apostle.

**Among all the people Paul greeted in Romans 16, ten were sisters among whom were “Tryphena and Tryphosa [who may have been twins], women who work hard for the Lord” (Rom.16:12).

**In line with Acts 2:17-18, Paul encouraged brothers and sisters to prophesy in the gatherings (1 Cor.11:4-5; 14:23-24).

**The open meeting Paul described in 1 Cor.14 envisioned all the men and women – “the whole assembly” – “each one of you” – “you may all prophesy one by one” – functioning together in an encouraging manner.

**Gal.3:28 indicated that “in Christ” human distinctions, like male and female, are no longer norms of judgment in the congregation. In the first century, prejudices abounded in folks’ minds when certain people like “Gentile,” “Jew,” “slave,” and “woman” were mentioned. Paul stated that in the body of Christ this should not be the case.

**Women were prominent in the assembly at Philippi, beginning with Lydia’s home. In Phil.4:3 Paul asked for two sisters – who must have had no small spiritual influence in the body – to be at peace with one another. He called Euodia and Syntyche “co-workers” and “co-strugglers” in the gospel.

**2 John is addressed to “the elect lady and her children.” This probably referred to a respected sister in whose home the saints gathered. She had apparently exerted significant spiritual influence upon a number of people. Women’s homes were mentioned as meeting places for the brethren in Rom.16:5, 1 Cor.1:11, 16:9 and Col.4:15.

**In Rev.2:20-24 Christ rebuked the Thyatiran congregation for allowing a false prophetess, nicknamed “Jezebel,” to “teach” some of the Lord’s servants to sin grievously. If it was such a crime for a woman to teach the brethren, why didn’t the Lord just condemn the assembly for even allowing a woman to instruct others? This incident in Thyatira implies that the assembly permitted other male and female prophets to teach the truth. Christ’s bone to pick with them wasn’t that a woman taught, but that what she taught was false teaching. We will come back to this passage in the course of our investigation of 1 Tim.2:12.

This survey of New Testament highlights concerning women is important because it reveals the freedom of the sisters to function in the kingdom. In the general flow of the New Testament there are no jitters about “restrictions” upon Christ’s daughters. Such a survey should also serve as a corrective to those who squelch and intimidate the sisters by using their interpretation of two passages – 1 Cor.14:34-35 and 1 Tim.2:12 – to cancel out the ministry of sisters unfolded in other Scriptures.

“Pastorals”?

Before coming to our passage in 1 Timothy, it is vital to note that the tradition of designating 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus as “Pastoral Epistles” is very misleading. One writer calls Timothy a “young pastor” (Kuske). Timothy and Titus were not resident pastors/elders. They were itinerant apostolic assistants. Paul at one point tells Timothy to “do the work of an evangelist” (2 Tim.4:5). In these three letters Paul gave his co-workers instructions regarding issues and problems faced by the assemblies they moved among and assisted.

Why Was 1 Timothy Written?

The purpose of 1 Timothy is stated by Paul in 1:3-4 – “As I urged you upon my departure to Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus, in order that you may instruct certain persons to neither teach differently, nor to pay attention to myths and unending genealogies, which stir up questions rather than furthering the stewardship of God in faith.” “The key to understanding the letter,” Gordon Fee notes, “lies in taking seriously that Paul’s stated reason in 1:3 for leaving Timothy in Ephesus is the real one; namely, that he has been left there to combat some false teachers, whose asceticism and speculative nonsense based on the law are engendering strife, causing many to capitulate to the false teaching” (Gospel & Spirit, p.54).

1 Timothy is not a church manual for a pastor. It is a mandate for an apostolic assistant to deal with serious issues involving false teaching in Ephesus. Unfortunately, some women had become involved in this problem.

The Immediate Context of 1 Timothy 2:11-15

In terms of the basic structure Paul used in this section (2:1-15), we can note the following (I have tried to follow the Greek closely in translating the verses in 1 Tim.2:1-15):

-- “I exhort [the whole assembly to pray]…to the end that we might live a peaceful and quiet life” (vv.1-2).

-- “I will that the males [plural] pray…” (v.8).

-- “Similarly [I will that] the women [plural] (pray) in proper clothing…” (v.9).

-- “Let the woman [singular] learn in quietness…” (v.11).

-- “But I am not now permitting a woman [singular] to teach with the goal of dominating a man [singular], but to be in quietness” (v.12).

-- “For Adam [singular] was first formed, then Eve [singular]” (v.13).

-- “But she [singular] will be delivered through childbearing if they [plural] remain in faith” (v.15).

The same Greek word, hesuchia (quietness), is used in verse 2 with reference to all believers leading a quiet life, in verse 11 with reference to a woman learning in quietness, and in verse 12 with reference to a woman being in quietness. The word simply does not mean “silent.” Verse 2 obviously does not envision us leading a “silent” life, but rather a life in which we are not known as rabble-rousers. Thus, any Bible version that has the woman in “silence” (2:11-12) reveals some level of bias, is a very inaccurate translation and leaves an impression upon the mind that is not from the Lord.

Apparently this congregation in Ephesus was riddled with false teaching and there was some level of disorder going on. One can appreciate, then, why Paul would emphasize prayer among the brethren and then elaborate on the world-wide salvation purpose of God in Christ (vv.3-7).

The implicit contrast between prayers in Christian assemblies and those in Jewish synagogues must be underscored. Jews in the first century were under Roman rule. Their synagogue prayers focused on the destruction of their Gentile enemies, not their salvation. Paul, on the other hand, exhorts the assembly to intercede on behalf of those in civil power and for the salvation of people all over the world.

Key Observations On 1 Timothy 2:11-15

Truly, I am a debtor to all the hard work others (listed in the “Suggested Sources”) have done in trying to understand these verses. Along with some possible insights that I have come to see, in most cases I am just calling attention to some foundational points that they have unearthed through diligent research. I’m going to structure my comments by contrasting the traditional view with some correctives that seem warranted.

I appeal to you to follow my presentation with an open heart and a willingness to consider the evidence unfolded. There are many assumptions and layers of tradition that must be carefully evaluated. As John R.W. Stott has said, “To me the essence of being a radical is being willing to subject one’s inherited traditions and conventions to biblical scrutiny” (Evangelical Newsletter, April 30, 1982, p.3). “It may be that much of what we call Christian, “ notes Bill White, “would have to be thrown out in the light of Biblical re-education . . . . Let’s approach Scripture with an open mind and heart and discover what God has called us to in the way of re-education and renewal” (Searching Together, Spring, 1983, p.32), Let’s face it – we all struggle to let go of old things learned in order to give way to new things unveiled..

1 Tim.2:11 – “Let a woman learn in quietness in all submission”

Traditional View: The word hesuchia has been taken to mean “silence,” meaning that women are not to speak in assembly meetings. “All submission” is taken to mean that females are to be passive receivers, not active participants.

Correctives:

**Hesuchia means “quietness,” not “silence.” Further, in 1 Tim.2:2 the stated goal is for all believers to live a “quiet” life. In 1 Thess.4:11 Paul instructs all the brethren, “strive eagerly to be quiet, to do your own business and work with your own hands.” The apostle tells those believers who are not working “to work with quietness and to eat their own bread” (2 Thess.3:12).

**Since “quietness” is to be a quality of all the saints, if Paul mentions that a woman needs to learn in quietness, wouldn’t that imply some special circumstance that required this instruction? Is it not clear from the context that the males needed a dose of quietness too, as they were manifesting “wrath” among themselves (v.8)?

**The fact that hesuchia does not mean “silence” illustrates the careless use of Scripture by those who with full confidence and dogmatism cite 1 Tim.2:12 as an end to further discussion. Let’s look at two examples of such misuse, one by a “clergy” person and another by a “lay” person.

#1 In 1970 British Reformed theologian Donald MacLeod pontificated, “[In 1 Tim.2:11-14] the woman is explicitly forbidden to aspire to the offices of teaching and ruling. She is to be submissive; she is to be a learner; she is to be silent. Paul does not qualify this last injunction in any way . . . . The injunction to silence, then, is comprehensive. Women are not to teach nor to rule nor to lead the public prayers of the congregation” (“The Place of Women in the Church,” Banner of Truth, #81, June, 1970, p.3). His intimidating remarks are premised on the mistaken assumption that hesuchia means “silence.” Everything he says is built on a false foundation. Being knowledgeable of Greek he should have known better, but he gives no evidence of caring what hesuchia really meant in verses 2, 11 and 12. The incorrect translation of the verses suited his agenda, so he squeezed it for all it is worth.

#2 In a letter to an editor, “Brother Richard” was upset at “Liberals” for pointing out the mention of a female apostle in Romans 16:7 and lashed out with what he felt were the final words on the matter: “These liberals obviously do not accept the Reformation proclamation ‘Scripture alone,’ long a basic tenet of the Lutheran faith. You do not have to strain your brain to understand 1 Timothy 2:12 which states unequivocally, ‘I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man; she must be silent.’ Delete this or any other sentence out of the Bible and you are now free to say or do anything you wish. ‘Sola Scriptura!’” (Christian News, March 26, 2007, p.19). You can see how such dogmatism is based on (a) a faulty translation of verses 11 and 12 and (b) hearing Bible teachers like MacLeod perpetuate a false understanding of these verses to those in church audiences.

Isn’t quoting a Scripture like this similar to how the cults take a verse out of context and build false teaching on it? Some cults will assert that Christ is only human with a verse like “the Father is greater than I [Jesus]” and totally disregard many other contexts that confirm his deity. Those who focus on 1 Tim.2:12 as a proof-text to shut down female ministry are guilty of using one Scripture to cancel out the clear revelation of their ministry in many other settings. In this case, the misuse of 1 Tim.2:11-12 is aggravated by the fact that they impose “silence” on women when the Greek word, hesuchia, has no such meaning in the first place. Using one Scripture to cancel out the combined impact of many other Scriptures is not a safe way to handle God’s Word.

** “In all submission.” Again, the New Testament clearly teaches that “submission” is to be an attribute of all believers, not just the sisters.

--Rom.13:1,5 -- every person is to be subject to the civil authorities.
--1 Cor.14:32 -- the spirits of the prophets are subject to [under the self-control of] the prophets.
--1 Cor.16:15-16 -- the brethren are to submit to those who lay down their lives for others.
--Eph.5:21 -- all Christians are to mutually submit to one another in the fear of Christ.
--James 4:7 -- we are all to submit to the Lord.
--1 Pet.5:5 -- “all of you, be subject one to another.”

**We must ask, do only women learn in all submission? Do men somehow learn in a different way, without submission? Aren’t “quietness” and “submission” necessary qualities in order for anyone to learn? If this is indeed the case, then are we not warranted to suggest that there must have been a problem with some women, or a woman, which accounts for why Paul would issue this special directive?

** “Let a woman learn [Greek, manthano]…” We must not forget that learning in the early church was not male-driven and pulpit-centered. It was a body experience in which all participated. We have already seen that both men and women are free to prophesy (Acts 2:17-18; 1 Cor.11:3-5). Paul made it crystal clear in 1 Cor.14 that he wanted prophecy from both sexes to be central in the gathering. In 1 Cor.14:31 he directs the saints in this manner: “you may all [males and females] prophesy one by one, so that all [men and women] may learn [manthano] and all may be encouraged.” In the New Testament even singing results in teaching and admonishing (Eph.5:19; Col.3:16).

**Nowhere in the New Testament are sisters forbidden to contribute to the learning process according to their gifts and graces. Thus, the concern Paul expressed in 1 Tim.2:11-12 must have been rooted in problems faced in the Ephesian congregation. Some women, or a woman, were involved in false teaching and needed to be in a learning posture at that time.

**It is noteworthy that from a practical standpoint the traditional “male headship/female submission” notion has been one of the most abused concepts in the flow of church history. In the past and in the present it is very easy for males with controlling spirits to use “male headship” as a “Biblical” justification to keep women under their thumbs.

It cannot be denied that the NT connects certain words with the marriage relationship. But did the NT mean by those words what post-apostolic theologians attached to them? For example, many assume that "male headship" means that the husband has "authority over" the wife, and not a few assume it means that all women are to be subject to all men. In my personal journey I have seen repeatedly the importance of sorting out what the New Testament actually teaches, versus the traditions that have been added on, or the negative influence of baggage that we read into texts.

We apparently assume that "male headship" means "authority over" and connect it with decision-making. But in the first century it was the "heart," not the "head" that was connected with decision-making, and there is much evidence to suggest that "authority over" was generally not connected to the concept of "head" (cf. Laurie Fasullo, “What About the Word Kephale (‘Head’) in the N.T.?”).

Again, many assume that male headship results in the virtual non-expression of the wife's gifts. However, Scripture does not confirm such a lop-sided opinion. Both Huldah and Deborah were functioning prophetesses, but that did not keep them from being godly wives, as their husbands' names are mentioned.

Most people are in ignorance of a vastly significant historical reality. Paul indeed used the words "head" and "submission" with reference to husbands and wives. There is, however, a huge chasm between what Paul had in mind with those words and how they were misappropriated and merged into the "mind-body dualism of classical Greek philosophy" by the early church fathers in order to utterly suppress women in home and church (Joy Bussert, Battered Women, LCA, 1986, p.6). Males were connected with the "mind" (spirituality) and females were connected to the "body" (carnal lust). Thus Origen “taught that women are more closely connected to the flesh than men and thus not as spiritual,” and Augustine “associates women with the evil flesh that must be controlled by the spirit, which he believed was superior in men” (Jann A. Clanton, In Whose Image? God & Gender, Crossroad, 1991, p.41). Thus the "goal of salvation was to free the pure soul from the evil material body" (Bussert, p.7). The state of celibacy became exalted upon the basis of this “Platonic spirituality” which denigrated the body. The most spiritual posture, it was presumed increasingly by the church, was to separate oneself from sexual expression. Translated into daily life this meant, “keep away from women, for they are the gateway into lust and profligacy” (cf. Jereome, Chrysostom & Friends, Elizabeth A. Clark, Edwin Mellen Press, 1982, 254pp.).

Following from this, female sexuality was viewed as "responsible for the Fall of creation and the descent of man's soul into perdition" (Bussert, p.7). Viewing women with disdain as the conduits for sin led of necessity to their subordination to males. "Since femaleness was equated with the inferior body, it followed that woman must naturally live in submission to man in hierarchical fashion, even as the body must be subject to the spirit” (Bussert, p.9).

This degradation of females led not a few theologians to question whether women as entities separate from men were in God's image. Further, since women were seen as "lower beings," husbands were granted the right to correct or chastise their wives. This "gave religious and legal sanction for the absolute control of the 'male mind' over the 'female body,' in the form of physical violence" (Bussert, p.12). Thus a perverted theology led to the church's sanctioning of wife-beating.

The Council of Toledo in 400AD “decreed that [clergy] had the right to beat their wives more severely than ordinary fellows: ‘A husband is bound to chastise his wife moderately, unless he be a [clergy], in which case he may chastise her harder.’ A later passage states that ‘if wives of clergy transgress their [husband’s] commands, they may beat them, keep them bound in their house and force them to fast but not unto death” (Bussert, p.12).

This helps us understand why church leaders were so uncaring when it came to the harsh treatment of women. John Calvin’s letter to the wife of an abusive husband reflects the hardness of heart and utter insensitivity to the plight of women when he replied in part:

We have a special sympathy for women who are evilly and roughly treated by their husbands . . . . We do not find ourselves permitted by the Word of God, however, to advise a woman to leave her husband, except by force of necessity; and we do not find this force to be operative when a husband behaves roughly and uses threats to his wife, not even when he beats her, but only when there is imminent peril to her life . . . . We exhort her to bear with patience the cross which God has seen fit to place upon her; and meanwhile not to deviate from the duty which she has before God to please her husband, but to be faithful whatever happens (cited by Bussert, pp.11-12).

This vile outlook on women was engrained in the theology of the Roman Catholic Church, and is amply documented in Uta Ranke-Heinemann's Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven: Women, Sexuality, & the Catholic Church (Doubleday, 1990,360pp.). It is imperative to keep in mind that the very essence of the assumptions about women in traditional theology are suspect, to say the least. To link Paul's conceptions of "head" and "submission" with what is articulated in Turtullian, Augustine, Jerome and many others about females is a total disconnect. There is no continuity of Paul's teaching with the later Platonic anti-body theology that came to dominate the visible church’s practice.

Such a disconnect is strikingly illustrated when Donald MacLeod simplistically linked the past views of women with New Testament statements. “Until comparatively recently there was virtually unanimous agreement among Christians that women should be excluded from the ordained ministries of the church . . . .The traditional practice of the Church can claim the explicit support of several New Testament passages” (Banner of Truth, 1970, p.1). As we have seen, “the traditional practice of the Church” viewed women as inferior beings – conduits of the devil -- who must be kept in line by a male hierarchy. Physical violence toward women was thus sanctioned by the church. This awful oppression of females was based on Platonic philosophy. Such diminution of women cannot claim the explicit support of any New Testament writings. What the New Testament said about sisters and what post-apostolic theologians said about women are two entirely different worlds. Further, church tradition held that all women must be subject to all men. The New Testament has only the marriage relationship in view which it speaks of “head” and “submission.”

Can we begin to comprehend why most wives (women) in the world cringe when they hear about wifely (female) “submission” from church leadership? Ana Audilia Moreira de Campos in 1979 describes the daily life of rural women in El Salvador. This same basic picture would be duplicated in most places around the world.

Men who earn little or no income have almost nothing to be proud of except their virility. They have few ways to relieve their frustrations, so women often bear the brunt of their discontents. There is absolutely no respect for the human dignity of women. It is common for their husbands and fathers to beat, kick and humiliate them in the most vulgar ways . . . . The majority of men in our rural communities refer to women as “idiots,” “pigs,” “worthless,” “disobedient,” “deceitful,” “disloyal,” “lazy,” “stupid,” and “daughters of whores” . . . . If it suits his mood, any of the above perceived qualities serve as sufficient reason for him to mistreat his wife . . . . From the day she is born, a female is regarded as inferior. The birth of a girl child is a great disappointment . . . . No one celebrates the birth of a girl . . . . The woman’s job never ends. She has to work at least sixteen hours a day to complete her chores . . . . Men, however, think women’s work has little value . . . . Women have become the nation’s beasts of burden, shouldering the basic responsibilities of the family and society in order that men may be free to pursue whatever work and pleasures they desire . . . . The myth of women’s inferiority continues to flourish because of traditional customs and educational biases that have conditioned both sexes to believe the male is superior . . . . This national inferiority has been created and forced by men. Institutionally, it is maintained and reinforced by the school system, the government, the Church, the community and the family (“Challenge of Women’s Liberation,” Cross & Sword: An Eyewitness History of Christianity in Latin America, H. McKennie Goodpasture, Orbis, 1989, pp.264-267).

Notice that last sentence. National female inferiority “is maintained and reinforced by . . .the Church.” How can we be surprised at this in light of the way women were treated in the history of the church? The church has led the way in the putting down of women. What Paul meant by “submission” has nothing to do with the meaning it took on as the Platonic body/soul notions infiltrated Christian theology.

In his The Subversion of Christianity, Jaques Ellul notes that when the church became powerful all that represented weakness or inferiority (physical, social, etc.) was put in second place. Women are the most spectacular instance of this. After a period of independence that came with the spread of Christianity, they were relegated to a lower order . . . .[T]he more feminine liberty was suppressed, the more women were accused (of being the temptress of Genesis, etc.), [and] the more they were reduced to silence (Eerdmans, 1986, pp.33-34; cf. pp.73ff., 90ff.).

This bottom-rung status of women in the post-apostolic age did not emerge because of careful study of Scripture. It came about as a result of the conflation of alien political and philosophical forces. The second-century world of Turtullian was not really any different from most cultures in the 20th-century world – “In our society, men control almost every facet of life. From the government to the Church, from political parties and cooperatives to sports, men run things” (Ana de Campos, p. 266).

Further reflection upon marriage, headship and submission can be found in Patricia Gundry, Heirs Together: Mutual Submission in Marriage (Zondervan, 1980, 192pp.); John C. Howell, Equality & Submission in Marriage (Broadman, 1979, 140pp.); and I. Howard Marshall, “Mutual Love & Submission in Marriage, Col.3:18-19 & Eph.5:21-33,” Discovering Biblical Equality, Pierce & Groothuis, eds. (IVP, 2005), pp.186-204.

1 Tim.2:12 – “But I am not now permitting a woman to teach with the goal of dominating a man, but to be in quietness.”

Traditional View: This verse is taken as an always-binding command by Paul that women are not to teach men, which if done would be a wrongful usurping of male authority. Instead of teaching, women are to be in silence.

Correctives:

**First, it must be pointed out that there is no command (imperative) from Paul in this text. The wording in the King James Version, “I suffer not a woman,” can certainly sound like a command, but it isn’t. Instead, it is a simple present tense, “I am not now permitting a woman….” This could imply a shift in Paul’s strategy because of the problems that existed in Ephesus. Timothy had worked with Paul for years and was not used to hearing restrictions on the sisters from Paul. But now Paul announces, “I am not now permitting a woman….”

**Considering the background of the assembly in Ephesus will be helpful in this regard. Read Acts 18:34-20:1 and you’ll see that Paul spent three years there. This was his longest tenure in any city during his journeys. With this background in mind, we can surmise that during his years in Ephesus – approximately 54-57AD – the sisters were functioning along with the brothers in a fashion similar to the meeting described in 1 Cor.14. It was not Paul’s habit to put restrictions on the sisters. However, things changed when false teaching crept in and some women were involved in the aberrations. As a result, at this time some six years after he left Ephesus (approximately 63AD), Paul must announce to Timothy, “I am not now permitting a woman to teach….”

**After leaving Ephesus, around 58AD Paul came to the island of Miletus (30 miles south of Ephesus) and called for the elders of the Ephesian assembly. In his farewell address to these servants, Paul mentions no concerns about the sisters, but does warn them, “I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from among yourselves people will arise and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them” (Acts 20:29-30). By 63AD this had come to pass, and Timothy was left in Ephesus to combat the confusion created by false teachers and false teaching (1 Tim.1:3-4).

**Paul wrote a letter to the Ephesian assembly around 61AD. This epistle is the pinnacle of Paul’s sublime expression of God’s purpose in Christ and his Body, but there are no concerns expressed about the sisters or any restrictions on them mentioned in his apostolic communication.

**Two infinitives. When Paul says, “I am not now permitting a woman,” he follows with a neither…nor construction involving two infinitives, didaskein (to teach) and authentein (to have one’s way with, to dominate). It must be asked, how are the two infinitives to be correlated? Philip Payne and others suggest that the best fit is that of goal or purpose. In other words, Paul in this Ephesian situation where some women were propagating error does not want them to teach with the purpose or goal of having their way with (or dominating) a man. Payne sees the closest English parallel to how these two infinitives are employed to be our idioms: hit ‘n’ run, eat ‘n’ run, hence, teach ‘n’ dominate – to teach with the goal of dominating (with false teaching). It is this specific type of teaching that Paul is not permitting.

**There is only one use of the verb authenteo in the New Testament and it is the infinitive authentein in 1 Tim.2:12. Traditionally it has been translated as, “nor to usurp authority over the man.” This view assumes that the very act of a woman teaching a man is inherently a wrongful deed that violates male headship. But the Bible nowhere substantiates such a notion.

--Deborah, a Prophetess, Judge and Wife, sat by her palm tree and made judgments as men and women came to her for counsel in applying the Mosaic law to their lives (Judges 2:16-19; 4:1-5:31).

--King Josiah sent a male envoy to the Prophetess and Wife Huldah after the Book of the Law was discovered. She gave them (and ultimately, Israel) the word of the Lord (2 Kings 22:14-20; 2 Chron.34:22-28).

--Further, we know that Priscilla and Aquila explained the way of God more perfectly to Apollos in their home in Ephesus (Acts 18:19-26). The assembly in Ephesus also met in the home of Priscilla and Aquila where we can safely assume she had some edifying things to say.

--When males and females prophesy in a gathering, Paul says that “learning” is one of the outcomes. Thus, brothers and sisters are constantly learning from one another. In this sense, it is clearly not wrong for women to contribute to the “learning” (manthano) of males.

If there is a divine law that women-teaching-men is sinful, then there can be no exceptions. But there is no concern in this regard expressed in Scripture, and there are clearly cases where women taught men. In Romans 12:6-7 where Paul is listing some gifts, he mentions “prophesying” and “teaching.” There are no sexual restrictions here – both men and women can be involved in such activities. There is nothing inherently evil in women-teaching-men, but it is a problem when women teach error, or teach with a view to dominate men. Of course, the same concerns hold true if males teach error or teach with the goal of dominating others!

**But the vital matter that must be reckoned with is that authentein simply does not have the meaning “exercise authority over.” In classical Greek literature before Christ, the word was used to refer to a murderer or to one who contracted for a murder to take place. Linda Belleville observes:

If Paul had wanted to speak of an ordinary exercise of authority, he could have picked any number of words. Within the semantic domain of “exercise authority,” biblical lexicographers J.P. Louw and Eugene Nida have twelve entries, and of “rule” [and] “govern” forty-seven entries. Yet Paul picked none of these. Why not? The obvious reason is that authentein carried a nuance (other than “rule” or “have authority”) that was particularly suited to the Ephesian situation . . . . [Louw and Nida] put authenteo into the semantic domain “to control, restrain, domineer” and define the verb as “to control in a domineering manner”: “I do not allow a woman…to dominate a man” (1 Tim.2:12) . . . . [They] also note that [authentein] is expressed idiomatically as “to shout orders at” . . or “to bark at”. . . . So there is no first century warrant for translating authentein as “to exercise authority” and for understanding Paul in 1 Timothy 2:12 to be speaking of the carrying out of one’s official [teaching] duties. Rather the sense is the Koine [common Greek] “to dominate; to get one’s way.” (“Usurping,” pp.211,216).


**We must remember that our Lord taught us that in his kingdom “authority” – who’s in charge – is to be a non-issue (Matt.20:24-28; 23:11; Mark 9:34; Luke 9:46; 22:24). The idea of one person having dominion over another or others is the essence of all that is antichrist. No one is to be the top-dog, and there are no positions of authority. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard, “women shouldn’t be in positions of authority.” The truth is, neither males nor females are to be in positions of authority! There is no chain-of-command in Christ’s domain. The greatest position is at the bottom of the ladder. Those with the most spiritual influence will live as those with no authority. They will live as slaves and children – who had no status in first century culture. The greatest in Christ’s kingdom lays down his life for others – which is precisely what Jesus did as the servant par excellence.

**In this vein we must rid ourselves of the traditional idea that some kind of inherent authority resides in the position of “teacher” (or, in our day, “preacher”). Christ is the one with all authority in his kingdom, and he oversees his assemblies with his word. Everything that is brought before the brethren is weighed and evaluated in light of the truth as it is in Jesus. Hebrews 5:12 says, “by this time you ought to be teachers, [but] you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again.” Obviously, not every person has the gift of teaching (cf. James 3:1), but all the brothers and sisters can be teachers in some way and contribute to the learning process in the assembly. Again, the New Testament is not against women teaching, but Paul does put the kibosh on a woman teaching with the goal of dominating a man.

**As an aside, it is crucial to note that the only place in the New Testament where the word “authority” is connected to gender is in 1 Cor.7:1-7. Interestingly, in this passage the “authority” (exousia) mentioned has nothing to do with the husband being the boss of the wife. Instead, it is a mutual authority – neither the man nor the woman has “authority” over their own body. The wife has authority over her husband’s body, and the husband has authority over his wife’s body. An implication of this truth is that the two cannot separate from one another physically unless they mutually agree [symphonou, be in symphony] that this should be done. Many take “male headship” to mean that the husband has “the final say.” But how could that be in light of 1 Cor.7:1-7? The husband, Paul teaches here, cannot unilaterally announce, “We are going to be physically separated for awhile.” Such action can only take place if they mutually agree on it. If this is the case in an important issue like physical separation, one would assume that the goal in marital decision-making is for the couple to be one-minded. In light of this passage what “male headship” actually entails needs to be revisited.

1 Timothy 2:13 – “For Adam was formed first, then Eve.”

Traditional view: The creation of Adam before Eve shows that women are subordinate to male headship. Paul refers to the creation order to reinforce why it is wrong for women to teach men.

Correctives:

**There is no evidence in the pre-fall account of Adam and Eve’s creation, or in 1 Tim.2:12, that a wife’s subordination to her husband is in view. The Scripture nowhere teaches that all women must submit to all men. The concepts of “head” and “submit” coupled together apply specifically to the marital relationship (Eph.5:22-24).

**Keep in mind that Eve was already in Adam’s side before her appearance on earth. The name “Adam,” in fact, includes Eve – “When God created Adam, he made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female and blessed them. And when they were created, he called them ‘Adam’” (Gen.5:1-2). This was a type of Christ and his bride. Just as Adam fell into a deep sleep when his wife came forth from his side, so Christ descended into the sleep of death and when his side was pierced the bride was birthed.

**We tend to think of that which is “first” as being the most important, as being superior, or as having priority. But Paul’s use of “first…then” “does nothing more than define a sequence of events or ideas . . . . This, in fact, is the case throughout Paul’s letters (and the New Testament, for that matter). ‘First-then’ defines a temporal sequence, without implying either ontological or functional priority” (Belleville, “Usurping,” p.222). The animals were created before Adam, but that did not give them “authority over” him! Thirteen verses later Paul says, “let the deacons first be proven, then let them serve…” (1 Tim.3:10). Why Paul would mention Adam being made first is highlighted by noting the female-centered religion in Ephesus.

**Reflecting on the background of the Ephesian assembly will be helpful at this point. The Temple of Artemis was a massive structure and was the focus of religious attention in Ephesus. Her Latin name was Diana. Her temple was then one of the seven wonders of the world. The effects of this woman-centered religion were pervasive. A significant share of the cash flow in this city was connected to the sale of idols and religious objects. Paul and his associates were in Ephesus for three years. It is likely that some of the converts to Christ were women who had been in the cult of Artemis, which included the practice of temple prostitution. Many ladies in Ephesus would be female-centered in their outlook on life. The influence of the gospel reached the point where many believers were confessing their past evil activities and burning their occult books publicly (Acts 19:18-19). A riot almost erupted, but at stake was the honor of the female god – “Artemis is the goddess that everyone in Asia and the whole world worships”….They all shouted the same thing for two hours: “Great is Artemis of Ephesus” (Acts 19:27,34). How does such background material help in our understanding of 1 Tim.2:9-15? At least in the following ways:

--We can see why Paul was concerned about female modesty in v.9. The Artemis influence which included the superiority of women ideology out of which some of the sisters came would contribute to dressing habits that were far from modest.

--This helps us understand why a woman influenced by the feminist Artemis cult could “teach with the goal of dominating a man.”

--We can then appreciate why women under the spell of false teaching would need to learn in quietness.

--“Adam was formed first” has a real punch with Artemis in the background. The Diana-cult taught that Zeus and the Titaness Leto had twins and the female came first – Artemis originated before Apollo.

--We can then understand why Paul would stress that Eve was “deceived.” The Artemis religion glorified women as superior to males. Paul punctured the Artemis balloon in two ways – Adam was made first, not woman; Eve was not superior to man for she was deceived into sinning against God.

--Verse 15 is mysterious indeed, but the Artemis backdrop may provide some light. This helps us understand why Paul would mention help in childbirth through faith in Christ. The women in Ephesus looked to Artemis for help during the childbirth process. “As the mother goddess, Artemis was the source of life, the one who nourished all creatures and the power of fertility in nature. Maidens turned to her as the protector of their virginity, barren women sought her aid, and women in labor turned to her for help” (Belleville, “Usurping,” p.220). “She [singular] will be saved through the childbirth” could also suggest the thought that even though Eve was deceived, God still promised in Gen.3:15 a seed (child) who would crush Satan’s head and bring salvation (cf., Rev.12:4-5).

1 Timothy 2:14 – “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

Traditional view: Verse 14 shows that serious problems arise when women take the lead. Paul does not want women to teach because they are more easily deceived than men. Women are more prone to wander into error. Therefore, the teaching role has been left in the hands of males.

Correctives:

**The idea that women are more prone to error is based on a key faulty assumption – that females are inferior to males when it comes to spiritual discernment. The history of the church – in which women were basically suppressed – illustrates to the hilt that males are very susceptible to conjure up, propagate and fall into error. Most false teaching has originated with and been spread abroad by males.

** “Isn’t Paul using Eve as an example of what can go wrong when women usurp the male’s leadership role? . . . . This view is without scriptural support. Eve was not deceived by the serpent into taking the lead in the male-female relationship. She was deceived into disobeying a command of God, namely, not to eat the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. She listened to the voice of false teaching and was deceived by it” (Belleville, “Usurping,” p.223).

** The notion that females are more capable of being deceived than males is shown to be false by observing that Paul applies the Eve-deceived model to an entire Christian congregation (2 Cor.11:3). The possibility of being deceived is not a problem peculiar to females.

** “The language of deception calls to mind the activities of the false teachers at Ephesus. If the Ephesian women were being encouraged as the superior sex to assume the role of teacher over men, this would go a long way toward explaining 1 Timothy 2:13-14. The relationship between the sexes was not intended to involve female domination and male subordination. But neither was it intended to involve male domination and female subordination. Such thinking is native to a fallen creation order (Gen.3:16)” (Belleville, “Usurping,” p.223). Why would we want to take our cue from the curse-ridden words, “your desire will be your husband, and he will rule over you” (Gen.3:16)? That is a simple description of sin’s implications for the husband/wife relationship. Wouldn’t we want to be informed by the redemptive implications of Christ’s cross and resurrection?

**It is fascinating to take note of the parallels between 1 Tim.2:11-15 and Rev.2:20-24:

Paul – “I am not now permitting a woman….”
Jesus to Thyatira – “You permit the woman….”

Paul – “to teach with the goal of dominating a man….”
Jesus to Thyatira – “she teaches…my servants to commit fornication….”

Paul – “the woman [Eve] being deceived….”
Jesus to Thyatira – “she deceives my servants….”

Paul – “she will be delivered through childbearing if they remain in faith….”
Jesus to Thyatira – “I will cast her [‘Jezebel’] into a bed….and I will kill her children with death.”



As I pointed out earlier regarding Rev.2:20-24, Jesus’ problem is not that a female was teaching, but that she was a false prophetess whose teaching was causing the Lord’s servants to sin. The implication would be that Jesus had no issue with male and female prophets exalting Christ in the assembly. If it was the apostolic custom for sisters to be silent, then one would expect the Head of the assemblies to sternly rebuke such a fundamental violation of décorum by this woman “Jezebel.” Apparently Jesus did not see this as a gender issue, but as a concern for what was taught and the effects the teaching had on the hearers.

The Gospel Applied to Cultural Situations

A major concern uttered by some is that if you don’t see a passage like 1 Tim.2:11-15 as an expression of “eternal truth,” are you not on a slippery slope that leads to truth being relativized? The answer to this concern is a resounding, “No!”

The New Testament letters were written in response to specific problems in various cultures. Steve Atkerson observes, “Everything in the New Testament is called an ‘occasional document.’ There was some occasion, usually a problem, that motivated the author to write the book” (In Search of the Biblical Church, DVD, Timothy Germain, ed., 2007). What is wrong, then in noting that in 1 Tim.2:11-15 Paul brought gospel truth to meet the needs of a concrete situation in Ephesus? Here is a summary of how that truth was applied:

--Usually the sisters and brothers functioned together in the participatory meetings of the assembly. Because of false teaching that had infected some women, Paul announced that some should be learning in quietness, not teaching with the goal of dominating men.

--It is not right for a woman or a man to teach with the goal of dominating others. In Christ’s kingdom no one is to dominate anyone else. “You are all brethren.” No clergy. No laity. No honorific titles. No elevation of some above others. If anything, give honor to the parts least esteemed.

--The mandate to have dominion over the earth was given to both Adam and Eve. They were not to seek dominion over each other, but to carry out their stewardship of the earth as a team. Females are not superior to males as was taught in the Artemis religion of Ephesus.

--Just as Eve had been deceived by Satan’s false teaching in the Garden, so some women in Ephesus had been deceived by the false teaching that was making the rounds.

--Many women in Ephesus looked to the goddess for help and guidance regarding the issues of virginity, fertility and childbirth. Paul directs godly women to look to the Lord Jesus.

The truth is, in most cases we have just bits and pieces of information about what was behind many apostolic statements in the epistles. Often it is hard to know exactly what question was being answered or what problem was being addressed. We are, as it were, hearing one side of a conversation. But such issues do not keep us from either profiting from the New Testament, or discerning the Lord’s mind. The Holy Spirit teaches us the mind of Christ. However, we do have to confess in humility that there is a great deal we will always struggle to properly understand.

There are cultural matters in the New Testament which we have to face. In 1 Cor.11:1-16, for example, you have some gospel perspectives brought to bear upon some cultural issues like headcoverings. Some people conclude that headcoverings are still binding; others see them as a cultural item that we are not required to emulate in our day. 1 Tim.2:8 mentions men praying with uplifted hands. Do we teach that male prayer is invalid unless the hands are lifted up? Would 1 Tim.2:9 lead us to confront a sister who donned some jewelry that contained some pearls or gold? Based on 1 Tim.5:9, would we tell a 57-year old widow in need that we couldn’t help her for three years until her 60th birthday? Why don’t we “greet one another with a holy kiss” (1 Thess.5:26)?

The New Testament was written in the first century and many culturally-rooted issues appear on its pages. Because of this are we to conclude that it is all “cultural” and contains no relevant “truth” for us today? No, rather we affirm that the gospel is brought to bear on many Jewish and Gentile cultural matters that impacted the early Christian assemblies.

As we, being New Covenant believers, approach any topic or concern, the key perspective for us must be, “you have heard him and have been taught in him, just as truth is in Jesus” (Eph.4:21). The fundamental truth about sisters in Christ is that they are free to function. There is no revealed emphasis on universally applicable restrictions to their service in the kingdom.

Conclusion

Evidence has been presented to suggest that the traditional understanding of 1 Tim.2:11-15 rests on some very shaky assumptions, and some fundamental misunderstandings about what Paul actually said. Difficulties found in these texts are often glossed over by those who use them to muzzle female ministry. It is time for honest Bible students to revisit 1 Tim.2:11-15 and to separate reality from fiction. Those who simplistically wave 1 Tim.2:12 as a proof-text to silence women had better be careful that they do not incur the dreaded millstone by hurting Christ’s little ones (Matt.18:6; Mark 9:42; Luke 17:2).

In closing, I believe Cheryl Schatz challenges us with a very astute observation about the need for plural witnesses in order to establish something as sin or as sound teaching. She writes:

The dilemma is that every single sin that is enunciated in scripture is always confirmed by two witnesses. The reason is that there must be at least two or three witnesses for a matter to be established (Deut.17:6, 19:15). Is there any confirmation in scripture that lists women teaching the Bible to men as a sin? No. There is not even one place in scripture that says it is a sin for a woman to teach the Bible to men. The fact that there is no second scripture that charges women with sin by teaching the Bible to men proves that this interpretation cannot be right . . . . Jesus confirmed this rule in Matt.18:16 by expanding its use to the need to have two or three witnesses when one is establishing a fact that would bring a charge against a person . . . . One witness alone is invalid according to the OT law. In John 8:16-18 Jesus himself says that he has the required two or three witnesses to establish the validity of his testimony, thus even Jesus himself submits to the law of two or three witnesses. Paul also places himself under this requirement as he establishes in 2 Cor.13:1, that his third visit to the Corinthians meets the requirement in order to establish a fact. Then in Phil.3:1 Paul tells us why it is so important to have the second and third witness. He says it is a safeguard for the church . . . . So here we are at 1 Tim.2:11-15. Those who say that this prohibits women from teaching the Bible to men are left without a second witness . . . . For those of our brothers in Christ who believe that Paul is commanding something for all women to abstain from or be charged with sin, we simply ask them to prove from scripture the second witness, or withdraw the accusation of sin to women who are part of the body of Christ, but whom God has called to teach the entire body of Christ (Strive to Enter). [1]


Summary

1) 1 Timothy 2:11-15 says nothing about women being “silent.”
2) There is no command (imperative) in 1 Tim.2:12 connected to women not teaching. Paul uses a simple present tense, “I am not now permitting….”
3) The infinitive, authentein, does not mean “to exercise authority over.” The two infinitives, didaskein and authentein, are best correlated together as purpose or goal, thus translated as “I am not now permitting a woman to teach for the purpose of dominating a man.”
4) Some key elements in 1 Tim.2:11-15 are clarified and elucidated by considering the pervasive influence of the Artemis cult in Ephesus: (a) women coming out of a goddess-based religion would need to be reminded concerning modesty in dress; (b) the need for a posture of learning on the part of some women because of the influence of false teaching; (c) because of the female-centeredness of the Artemis religion, it can be appreciated why a woman would teach with the goal of dominating a man; (d) because the Artemis cult believed that males originated from the goddess, it can be understood why Paul would point out that Adam was formed first; (e) because women were viewed as superior in Ephesus, it can be appreciated why Paul would mention that Eve was deceived into sin; (f) while many women looked to Artemis in connection with fertility and childbirth, Paul directs godly women to Christ as the promised Seed who was promised to Eve in Genesis 3:15.
5) When the ekklesia began on the Day of Pentecost the first thing that was mentioned concerned males and females prophesying together. Women and men prophesying are mentioned by Paul in 1 Cor.11:4-5. In 1 Cor.14 Paul wished for prophecy – from the whole assembly – to be central. Thus, to use 1 Tim.2:11-15 as a basis to completely silence the sisters in Christian assemblies is hardly an accurate way to handle Scripture. It uses one context to cancel out the revelation of many others.


May we have grace and humility to search the Scriptures together in order to see what is indeed really so!

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[1] Some suggest that 1 Cor.14:34-35 might be such a second witness. However, the apostle’s flow in 1 Cor.11:1 – 14:33 only supposes the full participation of the sisters. They prophesy along with the men in 1 Cor.11:4-5 (cf., Acts 2:17-18). In 1 Cor.12:7,14 Paul teaches that every part of the body has a manifestation of the Spirit for the good of the whole. In 1 Cor.14 Paul mentions “all of you,” “the whole church,” “each one of you,” and “you may all prophesy one by one.” Thus to use 1 Cor.14:34-35 as a magic wand to cancel out the immediate context is indeed a cavalier way to handle Scripture. If Scripture does not contradict itself, then we cannot use a few verses to negate many others that reveal and assume the full functioning the Lord’s daughters.

Suggested sources for further study:

Linda Belleville, “What the English Translators Aren’t Telling You About 1 Tim.2:11-15,” Christians for Biblical Equality Conference, Orlando, FL, 2003 (cassette).
Linda Belleville, “Teaching & Usurping Authority: 1 Tim.2:11-15,” Discovering Biblical Equality, Ronald Pierce & Rebecca Groothuis, eds., IVP, 2005, pp.205-223.
Biblical Illustrator, “Hairstyles of First-Century Asia Minor,” 6:4, 1980, pp.71-74.
Del Birkey, The Fall of Patriarchy: Its Broken Legacy Judged by Jesus & the Apostolic House Church Communities, Fenestra Books, 2005, 376pp.
Kathleen E. Corley, Private Women, Public Meals: Social Conflict in the Synoptic Tradition, Hendrickson, 1993, 217pp.
Eldon Jay Epp, Junia: The First Woman Apostle, Fortress, 2005, 138pp.
Lauren Fasullo, “What About the Word Kephale (‘Head’) in the New Testament?” and “A Critique of Wayne Grudem’s Understanding of ‘Head’ in the N.T.,” 1995. Studies presented to Grace Bible Fellowship, Baton Rouge, LA.
Joy E. Fleming, Man & Woman in Biblical Unity: Theology from Genesis 2-3, CBE, 1993, 44pp.
Gordon Fee, “1 Corinthians 7:1-7 Revisited,” Paul & the Corinthians: Studies on a Community in Conflict, Essays in Honor of Margaret Thrall, Brill, 2003, pp.197-231.
Gordon Fee, “The Great Watershed – Intentionality & Particularity/Eternality: 1 Tim.2:8-15 As A Test Case,” Gospel & Spirit: Issues in NT Hermeneutics, Hendrickson, 2006, pp.52-65.
Matilda J. Gage, Woman, Church & State, Persephone Press, 1980, 294pp.
Joseph F. Green, “Diana of the Ephesians,” Sunday School Lesson Illustrator, 4:4, 1978, pp.34-39.
Rebecca Groothuis, “Leading Him Up the Garden Path: Further Thoughts on 1 Timothy 2:11-15,” at CBE Interntaional
Mary Hayter, The New Eve in Christ: The Use & Abuse of the Bible in the Debate About Women in the Church, Eerdmans, 1987, pp.131-133, 148, 155, 161.
Joanne Krupp, Woman: God’s Plan Not Man’s Tradition, Preparing the Way Publishers, 1999, pp.97-107.
Catherine & Richard Kroeger, “I Suffer Not A Woman”: Rethinking 1 Timothy 2:11-15 in Light of Ancient Evidence, Baker, 1992, 253pp.
David P. Kuske, “Exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:11-15,” at wiseessays.net
Dennie R. MacDonald, There Is No Male or Female: The Fate of a Dominical Saying in Paul & Gnosticism, Fortress, 1987, 132pp.
Berkeley Mickelsen, “Who Are the Women in 1 Tim.2:1-15? Parts 1 & 2,” Priscilla Papers, 2:1, 1988, pp.1-6.
Margaret R. Miles, Carnal Knowing: Female Nakedness & Religious Meaning in the Christian West, Vintage, 1991, 254pp.
Craig Morphew, “Thrown to Lions, Woman Pastor Emerges Moral Victor,” St. Paul Pioneer Press Dispatch, January 30, 1988, p.3B.
Carolyn Osiek, Margaret MacDonald, Janet Tulloch, A Woman’s Place: House Churches in Earliest Christianity, Fortress, 2005, 354pp.
Alan G. Padgett, “Beginning With the End in 1 Cor.11:2-16,” Priscilla Papers, 17:3, 2003, pp.17-23.
Philip Payne, “Authentein in 1 Timothy 2:12,” Evangelical Theological Society Seminar Paper, Atlanta, Ga., November 21, 1986.
Philip Payne, “Women in Church Leadership: 1 Tim.2:11-3:13 Reconsidered,” Japan Harvest, #4, 1981-82, pp.19-21.
Rena Pederson, The Lost Apostle: Searching for the Truth About Junia, Jossey-Boss, 2006, 278pp.
“Professor Made to Leave Seminary ‘Because Women Can’t Teach Men,’” Tyler [TX] Morning Telegraph, January 27, 2007, p.3A.
Cheryl Schatz, “Is There A Law That Forbids Women from Teaching Men?” Women In Ministry Blog, July, 2006, at Strive to Enter or mmoutreach.org
“Seven Wonders of the World, Version 2.0,” Duluth News Tribune, March 19, 2007, pp.A1,A5.
Henry E. Turlington, “Ephesus,” Sunday School Lesson Illustrator, 4:4, 1978, pp.40-49.
Willard Swartley, “The Bible & Women,” Slavery, Sabbath, War & Women: Case Issues in Biblical Interpretation, Herald Press, 1983, pp.178-183,324.
Frank Viola, “God’s View of a Woman,” ptmin.org
Frank Viola, “Now Concerning A Woman’s Role in the Church,” www.ptmin.org/role.htm
Jon Zens, “Romans 16:1-16 – Brothers & Sisters Doing Kingdom Work,” 7th Searching Together Conference, Osceola, WI, 2006 (cassette).
Jon Zens, “Those With the Most Spiritual Influence Live As Those With No Authority,” 6th Searching Together Conference, Osceola WI, 2005 (cassette).
Jon Zens with Cliff Bjork, “Women in the Body of Christ: Functioning Priests or ‘Silent’ Partners?” Searching Together, 31:1-3, 2003, 47pp.

(If you are interested in obtaining any of the above materials, please contact us at jzens@searchingtogether.org; 651-465-6516)

© March 2007 Jon Zens

276 comments:

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Cheryl Schatz said...

Shamgar,

I still have your comments saved and will go through your questions and/or challenges, but my time has run out again today. I will reply to you as soon as I can.

Warmly,
Cheryl

Unknown said...

Cheryl,

First, do you know Greek? I got the impression earlier in dealing with the syntax that you did. Now it seems this is not the case. Perhaps I should have explained the significance of the syntax I called attention to?

I think you have really used the Greek words wrongly here. I searched the entire Bible for instances of the noun martous (witness) which Jesus and ALL OTHERS used in the call for two to three witnesses. This particular Greek word is used for people, not things (like Scriptures). In the Bible, only people are called to be witnesses to charges of sin. Again, every reference of two to three witnesses is using the noun martous for witnesses that are people.

The Greek has a different word for witness as scripture- marturion. This is the "record" as you call it- the written record. This is not the word Jesus nor Paul uses in the Scriptures you quote, nor any others, referring to witnesses to charges.

To the proof-texts:

Heb 12:1 is referring to the witnesses of faith, the men, not their record. The very clear antecedent to the men told about in the immediate chapter.

John 5- Jesus is not saying his testimony would be false if He were the only one to speak it, but that it would not be permitted in court. Why did he say this? v34 for their sake that they may be saved. Jesus appeals to John for His witness in the argument. But he then says even that witness, which is enough, is nothing compared to the Father's, the works, and the Scriptures that all bear witness about me. Note, He is not calling the Scriptures as a witness for a charge- John was that. The Scriptures are the basis on which the Jews should have believed from the beginning (marturomai- to bear witness, a verb). Nevertheless, if they were indeed his appeal to the lawful witness (Deut 17:6; 19:15), He most certainly did not call them to witness against themselves. This verse would support the counter-argument, that each and every Scripture holds weight as a testimony in and of itself. It needs no second from the text.

Again, you are trying to link the usage of the word as a witness to sin with the broad usage of the word and its relatives (to bear witness, a testimony, to solemnly testify, a witness (thing), a martyr, etc.). This is my point, you are trying to use it like it is not used in the text.

2 Cor- First, this argument is based on a huge assumption not in the text. Moreover, 2 Corinthians is likely Paul's sixth visit to the Corinthians, and likely the fourth letter to them. Even if you reject this (which could place 2 Cor as the 3rd letter but certainly not the third contact), this letter+coming in person as you have combined would at the very least be his fourth contact with them, not third (visit- Acts 18:1-18; previous letter- 1 Cor 5:9-13; 1 Corinthians; 2 Corinthians). However, the obvious reference to Paul's "FACTS" (which is the word rhema (word), the same word used by Jesus in Matt 18 about the charges of sin and deceit, which is exactly how Paul uses it here- not "facts" about prohibitions) is the charges and accusations of sin (12:16) he speaks of in this chapter and immediately preceding- NOT his charge against them. Further, to use your argument against me at the outset, "they are the same witness, try again."

You are wrong in your presupposition. You may be right that there is not a corollary OT text for the prohibition of women teaching, outside the fact that the OT priests were male. Nevertheless, without your presupposition, this fact remains meaningless. God's word does not need itself to witness against itself.

I went through 1 Tim several times, and do not at all see the link to the false prophets. Further, I would be happy, nay joyful, to go through every NT prohibition. Since you have done that study to "Doctoral Thesis" level, could you provide me with the list you came up with of every prohibition?

Anonymous said...

may i add to the discussion that every single one of the twelve apostles were men. the twelve plus paul were all men.

also, every single nt book was written by men. God did not use a woman to write the nt.....He used all men.

let me just add here too that i am not saying that men and women are not equal in value in God's sight. they are, and all the scriptures that some of you have quoted show that. but, God has given different roles to men and women. we are not the same....equal in value...yes! but, not the same. men are to be men and women are to be women. the bible also has a lot to say about that.

the nt is full of verse that show that pastors and deacons should be men.....the husband of one wife....rules his house well....and then, 1 tim. 3:11 says, "even so must thier wives be...." so, how can a woman be the husband of one wife? and, if the husband is to be the leader of his family, how can a woman rule the house well? and, how can a woman's wife also have to meet certain requirements concerning being the wife of a pastor or a deacon???????????

i feel that we have many people in this thread of comments who reject the clear teachings of the different roles that God has set up for men and women....who dont like the idea of submitting to authority....who dont like to go against what society believes. if you really read the nt, then it's awfully clear that men and women are equal in value in the eyes of God, but God has given us different roles to carry out.

david(volfan007)

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Colin,

Thank you for continuing to dialogue. With this dialogue I have hope, if not for you, than perhaps for the many others who read this dialogue that they will get a much better understanding of the “road blocks” that cause people to deny the evidence. I will give you the benefit of the doubt in that I am assuming that you have misread the evidence that I have presented and misread the Greek lexicons because I have no doubt that you are a sincere person. Let’s get on to what you said and where you have (inadvertently) misrepresented the evidence.

You said: “The Greek has a different word for witness as scripture- marturion. This is the "record" as you call it- the written record. This is not the word Jesus nor Paul uses in the Scriptures you quote, nor any others, referring to witnesses to charges.” You do well to note that “record” is a written record. Now let’s go back to Paul’s claim regarding the two or three witnesses in 2 Corinthians 13:1. Here the word for “witnesses” when Paul said that two or three witnesses are needed is the Greek word #3144. I am going to keep this simple so that others will be able to easily check this out. Look up the Greek word #3144 in Strong’s. Strong’s is one of the most basic Greek tools that anyone can have access to. Strong’s definition of word #3144 is “a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.”

Now I want you to note that the definition here in Strong’s includes “record” which you have already agreed means written record. Once everyone has pulled out their Strong’s concordance, they have verifiable evidence that a written testimony or record is included in the meaning of the word “Witness”.

So Paul is saying that every fact is to be established by two or three witnesses and the witnesses can include a written record of the fact. Let’s have another look at the verse to make sure that this is what Paul has said. The NASB renders it this way: “EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.”

Now that we have verified that the word for “witness” in 2 Corinthians 13:1 can mean a record or a written testimony of a person, let’s go back to the first part of the verse to see if Paul is referring to his written text to the Corinthians. Paul said, “This is the third time I am coming to you.” Now is Paul saying that he has only come to them three times to visit or is he saying that this written record is the third evidence that he is bringing in order that he will meet the required two or three witnesses? Paul is saying that this written record is the third witness. One cannot import into his statement how many times he has personally visited the Corinthians on other matters. Paul is only documenting how many times he has brought evidence of their sin. This is the third time and the third time is the written record. We know that one of the “witnesses” that Paul gave them was in person. Paul says that the second time he brought witness was in person “I have previously said when *present the second time*” Paul’s second witness was in person, his third witness is in text.

Colin for you to deny that “witness” can mean a written record when the Greek verifies that it is so and Paul himself verifies that his second letter to the Corinthians is a third witness is a denial of the facts from scripture and a denial of the meaning of the Greek. Anyone can check up on you to see that. It is such a simple test. Again, I do not doubt your motives at all. I believe you are a sincere person and if you are going to be a Pastor, you will want to be completely open to having scripture correct you.

You said: “Again, every reference of two to three witnesses is using the noun martous for witnesses that are people.” I have just shown you from scripture in 2 Cor. 13:1 that two or three witnesses can be a written record. Now I ask you to show me in the written record of scripture where a second witness is that affirms a prohibition that denies a godly woman from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men.

You also said: “John 5- Jesus is not saying his testimony would be false if He were the only one to speak it, but that it would not be permitted in court.”

What you have written is not accurate. Jesus said in John 5:31 "If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.” The Greek word for “true” is alethes Greek #227 and means true, truly, truth. Jesus is not saying that if he alone is testifying to people about being the son of God would be true except not in a court of law. He is saying that a testimony regarding a fact is not true if it cannot be verified. Jesus is not here speaking in a court of law, neither is he talking about giving evidence in a court of law. He is speaking to who were wanting to kill him. John 5:19 says: “Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them” Jesus was talking to the Jews and he was testifying to them about who he is. He told them himself that a single witness that cannot be verified is as good as a false testimony. If it cannot be verified, we can assume that it is a false testimony because Jesus said that it is not true. Look at the words Jesus used. He said his own words would be “not true” if there was not a second witness. Jesus does not say that his own testimony is three witnesses. In fact he says that if he alone brings the facts that these facts are not true. Paul then clarifies for us why a verification of facts by two or three witnesses is necessary. Paul says that it is for our safety. Safe facts are verifiable in scripture by being repeated.

This is why scripture tells us to test all things. We cannot test a statement unless we have something to test it by. There has to be something that confirms the facts or how could we know that it is truth?

You said: “You may be right that there is not a corollary OT text for the prohibition of women teaching, outside the fact that the OT priests were male. Nevertheless, without your presupposition, this fact remains meaningless. God's word does not need itself to witness against itself.” Yes it is a fact that there is no corresponding witness in the OT text for the prohibition for women teaching correct doctrine. The fact that only one tribe of the Jews was allowed to be priests does not stop women from teaching correct biblical doctrine. Appealing to the priestly duties of sacrificial work in the temple has nothing to do with teaching of correct biblical doctrine. It is a non sequitur. Secondly God’s word never witnesses against itself but it always witnesses for itself. Where in God’a word is there a witness that would confirm the prohibition that you so strongly believe in? If there is no such support from the OT, then where is the support from the NT?

You also said: “I went through 1 Tim several times, and do not at all see the link to the false prophets.” Colin, my friend you have misread me. I said nothing about false prophets. Please read 1 Timothy again and look for the link for false teachers and false doctrine. Do you see that deception, false deceived teachers and false doctrine is highlighted in chapter one? Do you see in chapter two that the deception of Eve is appealed to as a reason for the prohibition? Do you see any evidence at all for stopping correct biblical doctrine? If there is nothing about correct doctrine that needs to be stopped, why would we even consider that Paul is stopping correct biblical doctrine in chapter two?

Lastly, you said: “Since you have done that study to "Doctoral Thesis" level, could you provide me with the list you came up with of every prohibition?” I said nothing about doing a doctoral thesis study on the laws of scripture. I did say that I have never once found a law in scripture that is not repeated thereby showing that all God-given universal laws 100% of the time follows the “two or three witnesses” standard. It would be so easy for you to refute me if you sincerely believe me to be wrong. You just need to find one law that isn’t repeated in scripture. How can that be so hard if I am wrong? It will be impossible for you to do if the standard of scripture is exactly what Jesus said. A witness by itself without any support, without any means of verification is “not true”. Those are the words of Jesus and I stand by them because I trust in scripture.

My friend, you have sincerely tried to refute what I have said and you have failed to do so. Because you are at least trying when so many would have just kept silent without even caring about the Greek or the second witness, I encourage you to keep trying because truth is worth fighting for and worth verifying. I would encourage you to take your time, because you are not carefully reading the texts, the Greek word definitions or what I have said. When you misrepresent the facts like this, it doesn’t show a solid foundation that you are fighting for. Your deserve better than that. I encourage you with 2 Timothy 2:15: “Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.”

With respect,
Cheryl

Cheryl Schatz said...

david(volfan007),

Since you so confidently asserted that you know that all of the NT was written by men, then perhaps you could give the name of the man who wrote Hebrews. If you cannot give the name of the man, then what evidence do you base your confident assertion that the entire NT was written by men? Perhaps it is your opinion, but not something you can prove. If that is the case, then perhaps it might be wise to let people know that it is merely your opinion. We could respect that you have opinions but I for one like to test all things so I would like to see the evidence. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Cheryl,

If I am understanding you right, Paul's prohibition against women teaching cannot be universal b/c the required two or three witnesses do not validate it. Correct?

So why would Paul be able to give local instruction given the missing witnesses?

Curiously, if two or three witnesses are always required and we use the OT to validate a teaching in the NT what do we use to validate the OT on said teaching?

Also, for example, in 1 Timothy 3 where Paul writes about the character requirements of an elder should we also be able to verify Paul's teaching in these requirements?

Thanks,
Mark

believer333 said...

David wrote:
“i feel that we have many people in this thread of comments who reject the clear teachings of the different roles that God has set up for men and women....who dont like the idea of submitting to authority....who dont like to go against what society believes. if you really read the nt, then it's awfully clear that men and women are equal in value in the eyes of God, but God has given us different roles to carry out.”

Feelings can be deceiving.

1. The concept of roles was a French term used to describe play actors parts in a play. God has not given groups of people restrictive parts to play in the grand scheme of life. Rather all of humanity is to exercise their abilities to subdue the earth and all its creatures. This is our first command. This does not mean that we are all to be farmers and love animals. God gives each person different abilities to contribute to the life of the world. We are also to propagate the earth with our kind. This is also a blessing of companionship. It does not mean that every person must get married and have children, but those who wish to are encouraged to do so. You see there is no restrictive part to play, but rather a fullness of life to live and to share.
2. To assume that because people disagree with some point of your theory, means that they don’t like authority in general is interesting, but has no basis in fact. It is illogical at best.
3. Society is not the criteria for finding or understanding truth. Societies have put forth some of the most grotesque ideas of human relationships imaginable.
4. You are correct that all people of every different kind of division including gender are equal in the eyes of the Lord. God loves us all. But God does not, as I stated in #1, give out roles to play. God gives us LIFE and wishes that we live it abundantly IN Him. God desires that we should ALL mature into the fullness of the man Christ Jesus. Him and Him only are we all to emulate and seek to become like.

believer333 said...

A point I would like to make.

Someone made a mention that because 1 Tim. 3 listed “husband of one wife” in the list of characteristics, then that was restricting the minister of elder to men since a woman couldn’t marry a wife. There are quite a few problems with this assumption.

1. Verse one is addressing “anyone”, not “any man”. Pistos ho logos ei tis episcopes oregetai….. Faithful the word: if any overseeship aspires to ……. I believe if chapter 3 is read with diligent exegesis, we will find the word “Faithful” to be key.
2. There have been those who have interpreted the “mias gunaikos andra (of one woman man) in three different ways. Some think it means a man must be married. Some think it means he must have only been married once. Some think it means he cannot have more than one wife (polygamy).
3. Rev. Bruce Fleming in two books has put forth what I believe a more correct interpretation. He quotes Lucien Deiss (notes to the French Bible, the TOB, Edition Integrate, p. 646, note a) “This Greek phrase was used in Asia Minor, on both Jewish and pagan gravestone inscriptions, to designate a woman or a man, who was faithful to his or her spouse in a way characterized by “a particularly fervent conjugal love”.” I believe he may have illustrated for us all where we got the colloquial phrase “he is a one woman kind of guy” or “she is a one man kind of woman”. And the meaning is clearly: to be “Faithful”.
4. If one reads the entire list we will find that the common denominator is one of qualities of character, rather than physical or social qualifications….. : faithful spouse, sensible or soboer, orderly, hospitable, apt-at-teaching, not excessive drinker/not quarrelsome over wine, not a striker or not pugnacious or a bully, forbearing or gentle, uncontentious or not a brawler, not avaricious or no lover of money. If we IMO correctly interpret “mias gunaikos andra” as faithful spouse or one of a faithful heart, it fits into the list perfectly. If we translate it in any of the 3 other ways, it does not fit because it is not a point of present good character but a physical qualification.
5. In addition if you look at the other place it was used in chapter thee, you will see it being applied to both male and female deacons. The “likewise” of verse 8 carries everything from vs. 1-7 to apply to diakonos/ministers. The “likewise” in vs. 11 further carries everything to female kiakonos/ministers and adds in repetition that all diakonos/ministers be faithful spouses, leading their children, and managing their households well. All who are to serve must be faithful type of people holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience.

Faithful is the key thought here.

Anonymous said...

believer333333,

i know that you are trying your best to justify women in ministry, or women being deacons, etc., as is cheryl. but, alas, you are missing it on all points. you are not reading the greek right. you are trying to make the verses in the bible say things that they dont. and, in your attempt to make the bible fit into modern day, women's lib philosophy; you are distorting what the bible clearly teaches.

i know that it's useless to debate this with either one of you any longer, since you have been shown the verses and the greek by others. and, you both have refused to see it. you already have your mind made up. so, i wont be talking about this anymore to yall. it doesnt seem to do any good.

God bless you, ladies.

david(volfan007)

Cheryl Schatz said...

"God bless you, ladies."

Thanks David our brother in the Lord. I am sure God will bless us.

2 Timothy 2:15,
Cheryl

believer333 said...

God bless you too David.

It would have been nice had you responded to what was put forth. Conversation works best when there is an actual engagement and sharing of thought. Real conversation is a little like tennis. A ball is put forth, the other side sees the ball and responds by hitting the same ball back. The appropriate response is to still engage the same ball and send it back in a different manner. What is not real conversation is when one sends a ball, the receiver sees the ball and sends it back only to have the original sender drop the ball and send another one.

Wink! :)

Yours IN Christ....

Mercy and Truth said...

After reading the article I would like to comment briefly on some things that were not addressed therein.

I am coming from a different perspective than many here, having ministered for years in a country that has many females serving in leadership roles because the male leaders of the churches were rounded up and imprisoned for their faith in this country's not too distant past.

We deal a lot with women leaders in the church. One can see that when the men are not stepping up to the plate to preach and teach, for whatever reason, God does seem to allow for women to teach. This may explain why we have women filling what were intended to be men's roles in the Bible.

I see Paul saying in 1 Tim. 2:12, "I suffer not a woman to teach", sort of like a man saying, "I won't have a woman open her own door." Paul seems to be saying that when he is around there will not be a need for women to teach men. He will teach the men, thank you very much.

The only other thing I would like to address in this post is on this issue of no definite distinction given to men and women by God; this idea that women are not inherently different than men, and should be allowed to fill the man's role. Clearly, we should not take this position. There are very definite distinctions given to men and women and the roles they fill in the home and in the church. As an illustration of this, allow me to examine how the Bible states that women are considered the weaker vessel.

1Pe 3:7 says, "Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered."

Now let me state here that "weaker" does not mean "not as good as", or "of less value than". Sometimes the weaker vessel, (the china cup) is much better, of much more value, far more precious, than the sturdier one, (the mug). We know by looking at it that china - the weaker vessel - should be protected from everyday wear so that it is not chipped or broken, thus reducing it's value; a mug - the sturdier vessel - on the other hand, may be handled roughly, and is much more suited to everyday wear and tear. Two different examples of the same type of vessel, and a good picture of women and men.

I have used the analogy of a scalpel and an ax in marriage counselling to illustrate the difference between the female and the male in the home. Two extreme examples of the same instrument. One is used in very delicate surgeries, the other for chopping down trees. Both valuable instruments for performing their specific functions, but neither entirely appropriate for the task given to the other.

If you tried to use a scalpel to chop down a tree, you would not be very successful at your desired motive, and you would damage the instrument in the process. Apply the analogy to an ax performing a delicate surgery, and ... I believe you get the picture.

In conclusion, men and women were given specific roles to fill in the home and in the church, and it behooves us to adhere to the Biblical outline of those roles as much as is possible. However, God allows for special cases, in special circumstances that His work may continue.

May the LORD bless you, and keep you in his mercy and truth.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Hello Mark,

You said: “If I am understanding you right, Paul's prohibition against women teaching cannot be universal b/c the required two or three witnesses do not validate it. Correct?”

The understanding that the prohibition is a universal prohibition cannot be correct because there is no precedent in scripture to have a universal law of God without a second witness. Also it is without an OT witness which means that women were allowed to teach the bible to men without hindrance for thousands of years before the coming of Christ. Jesus did not stop women from learning nor did he make a law that stopped them from teaching when he was here on the earth. During the entrance of the church and all of the years with the first footstep followers of Jesus, there was no law that forbid women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men.

In the context of the letter that Paul wrote to Timothy there is no textual backing to warrant the stopping of the teaching of correct biblical doctrine by anyone. However there is plenty of backing from the text to stop the teaching of false doctrine. How did we ever get a universal prohibition from this one verse? 1 Timothy is consistently about false doctrine and false teachers. Paul starts and ends his letter with concern about false teaching. In chapter one he reminds Timothy that he had left him behind in Ephesus to instruct the false teachers not to teach false doctrine (1 Timothy 1:3-7)

In chapter two Paul gives deception versus non-deception as the reason for the prohibition (1 Timothy 2:14); Timothy is warned about false doctrine in chapter 4 (verses 1 & 7) and Paul ends his letter with chapter six once again warning about false doctrine (verses 3-5 and verses 20-21). Paul says: “O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the *opposing arguments* of what is *falsely* called "knowledge"-- which some have professed and thus *gone astray from the faith*. Grace be with you.”

How can we get the mandate for the stopping of the teaching of true doctrine from this context?

You asked about how Paul can give a local instruction without a second witness. Paul can give instruction about how to handle problem people because it was not a universal prohibition from God that needed a second witness. God’s ordinances always come with a second witness. Man’s ordinances are just that – they are man’s laws that are not meant to be universal.

You also said: “Curiously, if two or three witnesses are always required and we use the OT to validate a teaching in the NT what do we use to validate the OT on said teaching?” The OT validates its own laws. God promised that he would provide the two or three witnesses so that everything would be validated, understandable and enforceable. In the book of Job which is considered to be the earliest book of the Bible, it says that God confirms what he speaks. Job 33:14 in the Amplified Bible says: “For God speaks not only once, but *more than once*, even though men do not regard it.”

Genesis confirms that repetition means that God is *establishing* something. In Genesis 41:32 Joseph reveals God’s will and he says: “Now as for the*repeating* of the dream to Pharaoh twice, it means that the matter is *determined by God* and God will quickly bring it about”

A matter is established by God when God repeats the instruction, the prohibition or the law and thus providwa the second witness. This is an established order in scripture and no prohibition of God’s is ever stated only once. When we see a unique prohibition (like 1 Timothy 2:12) that does not fit the test of a universal law nor does it have any roots established in the OT, nor does it fit as a universal prohibition in its own context, then we must begin to understand that we have been holding a faulty interpretation.

The last question you asked is: “Also, for example, in 1 Timothy 3 where Paul writes about the character requirements of an elder should we also be able to verify Paul's teaching in these requirements?” I do know that all prohibitions have a second witness. Also all essential doctrines have a second witness. I have not looked up every other secondary doctrine to see if it follows the same consistent pattern, but it seems that it should. The character requirements for elder certainly do have a second witness. It is found in Titus 1:6. So far I haven’t found anything that God has ordained that isn’t repeated. He sure seems to be consistent, eh?

I hope that helps!

Warmly,
Cheryl

believer333 said...

Cheryl,

“The understanding that the prohibition is a universal prohibition cannot be correct because there is no precedent in scripture to have a universal law of God without a second witness.”

I am very impressed with your work in this premise.

Job 33:14 in the Amplified Bible says: “For God speaks not only once, but *more than once*, even though men do not regard it.”

In Genesis 41:32 Joseph reveals God’s will and he says: “Now as for the*repeating* of the dream to Pharaoh twice, it means that the matter is *determined by God* and God will quickly bring it about”


Excellent research.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Shamgar,

I had said that God doesn’t have one rule for a church building and another rule for a home and you said:

“He doesn't? 1 Cor 15:34-36 would seem to quite clearly contrast rules for home and church.”

I said that God doesn’t have a rule for a church building and another rule for home. 1 Cor. 15 is a quote from the oral law not a quote from God’s law. This quote is nowhere to be found in scripture so it isn’t God’s law. In fact Paul promptly refutes the saying in verse 36. I won’t go into this further because I have a ton of documentation on this passage in my DVD series. One complementarian Pastor who viewed WIM wrote me and said that this segment on 1 Corinthians 15 was especially powerful. The Greek, the grammar and the historical witnesses all point to the fact that this was a quotation from the Corinthians letter to Paul. Please do let me know if you watch the DVD and view the evidence and we can dialogue further on the passage.

You also said: “I would say the instructions for eating the Lord's supper together would apply quite specifically to within the Church, and not just any time believers eat together.” That wasn’t my point. I was talking about *where* believers met not what they are doing. In other words it would be inconsistent to allow a woman to teach the bible to men in her own home but refuse to let her teach men in the church basement or in a Sunday school class. Most of the early churches met in people’s homes so it would not have made sense to them to have a different rule for the home than one for the church. Their home was their church.

You said: “And what about the rules governing spiritual gifts? Look at 14:28 - if there's no interpreter he should keep silent. Do you think they should've applied that to the use of their gifts within their own home at the time?” Of course. If the church was meeting in their home, these rules apply. (See above)

You also said: “I would also note that what is different about teaching in the church I have already noted elsewhere. Teaching in the church implies authority. Of course, I believe you don't agree with Paul's teaching on women in authority - so I can understand why that wouldn't be an argument you would consider.” I agree with everything that Paul said. Paul never said that women (plural) cannot have authority. Paul also did not say that men can authenteo a woman or other men.

I had said that restricting a woman from teaching 50 men at one time while allowing her to teach all 50 men one at a time would make a woman teacher ineffective because it would only use up her time. You said: “But then, some churches find it more effective to get people in the door by violating the precepts God has laid down about how he is to be worshiped. (Clowns in the worship service, avoiding unpleasant topics, etc). We are not called to make our own personal judgments about "the better way" but to follow God's word. This is not about pragmatism, it is about fidelity to the truth.”

I fully agree with fidelity to the truth. I am a stickler for the truth. However I have shown you that God does not have a precept that forbids godly Christian women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men. You cannot say that this is God’s precept without also submitting yourself to providing a second witness. I am a very patient person and I am still waiting for the second witness.

You further responded to my point about complementarians making a woman’s ministry ineffective when they force her to teach 50 men one at a time instead of all of them at one time. You said: “I must say at this point that I'm starting to become a little offended by remarks like these. I don't believe you have any basis to paint everyone who holds the complementarian view as having some ulterior motive based in a some sort of hateful or misogynistic view of women. That we only hold to these views because of some deep-seated desire to keep women under our thumb. That simply isn't true. It is (at the very least on my part) quite simply a desire to be true to the teaching of the Scriptures, the same as you profess for your position.”

I have written only about consequences to actions, I have said nothing about motives. I would really like to know how you could read “hateful, misogynistic, keep women under their thumb” from my comments? Is there something under the surface that would cause you to see hate in my words? Have you been hurt by someone in the past and my words somehow reminded you of the hurt? I have nothing but high regard for complementarians who love God’s word and who desire to follow whatever is written in scripture. I do however believe that I owe it to them to show them where their views are distancing them from God-fearing women teachers. When complementarians judge women who love God and are passionate to serve him they are doing what Jesus asked them not to do. Jesus said not to judge unfairly. Should we be judging good and calling it evil when scripture does not do that? If our brothers in Christ would love us enough to hear the arguments and dialogue in a respectful manner, I think that there can be mutual respect and love and the body of Christ will be edified.

I pray that God will grant you wisdom and understanding and that God will also grant you a respectful love for women who teach the bible without turning away brothers in Christ.

Respectfully,
Cheryl

Cheryl Schatz said...

Believer333,

Thanks for your warm hug! Much appreciated!!

Cheryl

kerryn said...

having read this entire blog entry and debate word for word...
Jn 13:35 teaches us to have love for one another. This is how we show others that we are atually his disciples.
For those who have managed to diagloue and present their beliefs and maintain true love in doing so, well done. (Cheryl your patience in particular amazes me). For those who have allowed sarcasm and bitterness to enter into their words, (which has happenened on 'both sides' to some extent) may God fill you with love and compassion for those who you perceive as different from yourselves in opinion. As difficult as this debate might be we miss the far bigger point if we do not treat each other - male and female, complimentarian-egalitarian with sincere and humble love.
may God have mercy on us as we seek him for revelation and truth.

kerryn
(i know we all *know* this -but may God help us live it in this challenging search for truth... cos most of us forget it all too often as our hearts and egos get in the way)

Shamgar said...

Cheryl,

I'm going to try to keep this brief out of respect for your time, and in accordance with my intent to draw my participation in this thread to a close.

Most of the early churches met in peoples homes so it would not have made sense to them to have a different rule for the home than one for the church. Their home was their church. Of course. If the church was meeting in their home, these rules apply. (See above)

This is irrelevant. When we say 'the Church' we are talking about the gathered body of believers making up the (a) local church. The building is irrelevant. You say that they would not have understood a distinction between the two. Then I ask you, in 1 Cor 15:26-33 (which is what I meant to quote earlier, sorry for the confusion) did the believers at Corinth misunderstand this to mean they could not pray in a foreign language in the privacy of their own home (when the gathered body was not present) unless there was an interpreter present?

However I have shown you that God does not have a precept that forbids godly Christian women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men. You cannot say that this is Gods precept without also submitting yourself to providing a second witness. I am a very patient person and I am still waiting for the second witness.

No. What you have shown me is a vivid reminder of how dangerous eisegesis and bad theology are. What particularly saddens me is that it seems the lack of a solid theological foundation has made your eisegesis so easy. With a better understanding of theology in general you might not be in this position. Theology matters.

As for a second witness, I suspected your knowledge of greek was the ability to look up words in a concordence and it seems I was correct. That is not a valid means of exegesis. If you ever get a chance to learn the original languages, you will quickly discover that context and word form make a difference in the meaning of a word or phrase. So every possible meaning of a given word doesn't apply in every individual usage. Allow me to give you an example in English: He took a bath on that deal. Do you think I mean he literally got wet and washed with soap on the deal? No, you know that the word means something different here. Yet that is what you are trying to do with the Greek language.

I can say it is God's precept without submitting myself to your imposed requirements. Scripture makes no such requirements. I wonder though, off the top of my head I thought of three places where Paul makes an explicit command which I believe are not duplicated elsewhere in scripture in the same fashion.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
2 Thesallonians 3:12
1 Timothy 1:18-20

This last was directed specifically at Timothy. I wonder, do you think he rejected this as a command he was meant to follow since there's no command in the OT for him to what Paul says?

You further responded to my point about complementarians making a womans ministry ineffective...I have written only about consequences to actions, I have said nothing about motives. I would really like to know how you could read hateful, misogynistic, keep women under their thumb from my comments?

Allow me to quote what you actually said:
How I see it, it is the complementarians way of making a womans ministry in the church ineffective.

You can honestly tell me that you don't see how one would get "motive" from that statement? You are quite clearly attributing a motive of rendering a woman's ministry ineffective as a goal of a complementarian.

I never said I saw hate coming from your words, I never attributed any emotion or motive to you. All I said was that I was becoming offended by remarks like these and why.

I owe it to them to show them where their views are distancing them from God-fearing women teachers. Should we be judging good and calling it evil when scripture does not do that? If our brothers in Christ would love us enough to hear the arguments and dialogue in a respectful manner, I think that there can be mutual respect and love and the body of Christ will be edified.

I have heard your arguments, and I believe I have done so respectfully and patiently. You again bring this back to a question of moral good and evil. I have not, to date, called you or anything you do evil. However I do have a resonsibility to judge all things by the Scriptures, and when I do so I find your arguments lacking and your position without merit.

I pray that God will grant you wisdom and understanding and that God will also grant you a respectful love for women who teach the bible without turning away brothers in Christ.

By implication then, I don't already posess a respectful love of women who teach the bible. I will tell you that I love them the same as I do others who are in error. None of us our perfect. When we reach heaven, all of us will find we had deficiencies in our understanding. At one time, mine were severe - God was merciful and opened my eyes to the truth. I pray that he will do the same for you.

I want to leave you with one final thought, based on a line from the statement of faith of your ministry. (Thank you by the way for being so forthcoming with that information. It is sadly rare these days.)
What we reject...A fatalistic, Calvinistic view, which allows no room for free will.
And from your church's statement:
He died upon the cross, the Just for the unjust, as a substitutionary sacrifice.
Salvation has been provided for all men through the sacrifice of Christ upon the cross.


Ok. So you reject a strawman of calvinism. (Which is not fatalism, they are radically different). You affirm a substitutionary, penal sacrifice on the cross. And yet you believe that Christ died for all men - presumably meaning every individual man based on the context of the documents in question and the rejection of Calvinistic thought.

In light of that, I'd like you to ponder this. Are you then a universalist? If Christ died bearing the punishment of each individual person's sin - then what is left to be atoned for? And if you are not a universalist, do you then charge God with injustice for double-jeapordy for those who go to hell for sins for which Christ died?

I'm not looking for you to respond here - I don't want to take the thread in a whole new direction. But given that this *is* a baptist blog, and given Wade's stated convictions on this matter, I don't think it's too inappropriate to ask you the question. I urge you to give it some thought.

Shamgar said...

Ouch. I should've previewed that first. I guess you can see what passes for "brief" with me. ;-) Just ask my wife.

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Cheryl,

You said, Now I want you to note that the definition here in Strong’s includes “record” which you have already agreed means written record.


This is exactly NOT what I said! The neuter marturion (strongs #3142) which can mean written record, is not used in the passages you cite about charges (or facts). Despite what strongs says, the masculine martous (#3144) which is in the passages you cite is NOT used to mean record or anything written. Every instance refers to a creature or God. I have no idea why Strong's lists that as a possible definition, because BDAG does not. I will check others soon to see what they say. The bottom line: the word #3144 is NOT used for record or written testimony or scripture in the NEW testament, nor in the OT as far as I could tell.

I urge you not to base your exegesis and the dvd's you are sending out all over the world on Strongs. This seems to be quite irresponsible.

I will read the rest of your comment tomorrow.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Kerryn,

"(Cheryl your patience in particular amazes me)"

Thank you so much for your encouragement!

Smiles,
Cheryl

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Colin,

You said: “Despite what strongs says, the masculine martous (#3144) which is in the passages you cite is NOT used to mean record or anything written.”

Well, let’s practice what we preach. Let’s find two or three witnesses:

Witness #1 is Strong’s concordance which I have already given.

Witness #2 is the King James Version. Here the Greek word #3144 is translated “record” in Philippians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 1:23: “Moreover I call God for a record upon my soul, that to spare you I came not as yet unto Corinth.” The KJV translates #3144: 21 times as “witnesses” 8 times as witness 2 times as martyr *2 times as record* 1 time as martyrs. For anyone who wants to check this out and doesn’t have the resources, please see the blue letter bible on line where all of this information is readily available (blueletterbible.org).

Witness #3 2 Corinthians 13:1 Paul gives a legal status “two or three witnesses” to the letter that he is writing to the Corinthians.

Witness #4 The complete WordStudy dictionary states regarding #3144 witness as in *word or deed* and lists Hebrews 12:1 as an example.

Witness #5 Thayer’s Greek lists #3144 as a witness in a legal sense, in an historical sense or in an ethical sense. It also lists martyrs as examples of deeds of a witness. This also is a written record of a man’s deeds as a dead man cannot be present to give a personal witness.

Now I have given you 2 Corinthians 13:1 as a direct and specific example where Paul states that his “coming to them” is the letter, therefore a text written by an author is considered a valid witness. You have not answered me at all on this scripture. Since I have given you these witnesses regarding the deeds of a person or the record of a person as fulfilling the requirements of a legal witness, and I have quoted from Greek sources showing that #3144 can mean witness as in a written record, I would like to ask you to do the same. Please provide your sources to prove that #3144 cannot mean a written text. Please provide the source and the page number so that we all can “test all things”. I will look it up. I would also like to know your Greek credentials (years of Greek, number of degrees) that qualify you to dismiss the KJV and Strong’s concordance and say that they are wrong in their rendering of the Greek.

You also said: “I urge you not to base your exegesis and the dvd's you are sending out all over the world on Strongs. This seems to be quite irresponsible.”

What makes you think that I am basing my exegesis on Strong’s? I used Strong’s in my comments to those who would be reading our dialogue because it is the easiest and simplest source for people to check out. Many Christians never bother to check out a Greek source in their studying of scripture and Strong’s is the most readily available and is a good start for someone not familiar with Greek. Myself, I like Zodhiates Greek Lexicon and highly respect its scholarly treatment of the Greek. I also have other Greek resources on computer and multiple Greek lexicons that I reference. My DVD’s have been previewed by many Pastors including those who have masters and doctorate degrees in theology. None of them have pointed out any problems with my Greek or my exegesis (this also includes complementarian Pastors who have viewed the material) and the DVDs have also been ordered by a number of seminaries throughout Canada and the US.

You imply that I am being irresponsible in my treatment of the Greek. Why don’t you buy a copy of WIM and view the material for yourself before you judge it? I would be more than willing to go through any “error” that you can document.

I really do look forward to hearing back from you regarding your sources for your strong statements regarding the meaning of the Greek. It is a privilege for me to be open and honest to whatever is truthful. I eagerly await your answer.

Your sister in Christ,
Cheryl

Anonymous said...

Cheryl,

Thanks for the reply. I am trying to concentrate more on the two or three witnesses position first and not get into whether Paul’s command is universal or not.

The understanding that the prohibition is a universal prohibition cannot be correct because there is no precedent in scripture to have a universal law of God without a second witness.

When Scripture tells us about having two witnesses we are told this was established in the Law as Jesus says in John 8 in order to validate a testimony. The witnesses weren’t used to establish Law, but were part of the all ready established Law. This helps attest to whether one’s testimony is true or false.

So even for Paul to be able to accuse the people in question of teaching false doctrine, using the two or more witnesses protocol, his accusation would have to be attested to by another. This then tells us the witnesses were in place for his accusations to hold weight which meets your criteria as well as for his instructions to be authoritative. Also, Paul was not present, but was writing from outside the situation so some one told him about the problems. (Although, we do see in Scripture were Paul appeals to himself via his authority.)

As to claiming Paul’s prohibition is local vs. universal (again, not arguing for which it actually is) he would still need witnesses to bring charge against another whether local or universal.

Also it is without an OT witness which means that women were allowed to teach the bible to men without hindrance for thousands of years before the coming of Christ.

This would be an argument from silence and the conclusion is assumed. You’re giving us an example of prohibition you say is not there then saying that means it is okay to do. And the remark about stopping “women from learning” is certainly a strawman as I’ve seen no one posit that in this discussion.

Is it your position then that it was only women who were teaching false doctrine? If not, then why did he not order the men to be silent and not teach?

How does the OT validate its own laws? Who validates the OT then?

God promised that he would provide the two or three witnesses so that everything would be validated, understandable and enforceable.

Where does God promise this? Job 33:14 doesn’t claim this. It seems that Joseph’s dreams from the Lord about Mary’s pregnancy, escaping from Herod etc. seem to only be dreamt once. Not to mention that Pharoah’s dream was not presented to establish a universal law. Scripture explicitly tells us why in this example which doesn’t mean we take that as a glass through which to see the rest of Scripture since even you only allow it for universal teachings. Is every dream and vision given more than once in the OT?

The charge for elders in 1 Timothy cannot be backed up by citing Titus since, as I understand, Titus was written after 1 Timothy. Also, that would just be citing Paul again leaving him to be his own witness.

I think we’d really be in trouble if we took Scripture in this manner. We may even have to question the universality of the way the whole of Scripture is used in the church at large, but that’s another issue.

And yes, thank you and everyone else for their patience.

Hope that helps!

Mark

Shamgar said...

I'm sure Colin will have his own statements to make on these points - but I wanted to put forward some thoughts on your Witness theory where you replied to Colin.

Witness #1 is a lexicon. It is an index of words in the bible and is not without error. Further, it sounds like you have one indexed specifically to the KJV translation, and you are assuming that you can read that word forward into how you might wish to use it today, instead of using it in its proper context in history - while ignoring the hundreds of scholars that work on each of the more modern translations.

Witness #2 is a translation of the original text. It is a translation written in a different time, in a different country, for different people, in a different dialect.

Lets take your verses and look at how other translations handle it. The NET, ESV, NASB and NKJV all use the word 'witness' in both 2cor 1:23 and phil 1:8. It makes a whole lot more sense to read it that way. This is an oath, and one we use frequently today. I don't have the oxford english dictionary, but I bet an evaluation of the use of the word record during this era would be instructive. Though it is noteworthy that even the Wycliff translating uses 'witness' here.

Witness 3 is a weak interpretation of the text, and not the most likely or sensible one. The greek verb here suggests a pending action - and it is even clearly translated that way in the KJV as well as the other translations I mentioned. It suggests his planning to come, and the most supportable sense is that he came once, wanted to come a second time and was prevented, and is now preparing to come a third time.

Regardless, people smarter than both of us have disagreed on the sense of thie verse. There are some who feel that it refers to his first coming, his second letter charging these men, and either his pending visit or this third letter. However, this does not establish your point, as this is regarding giving support of a charge against certain men, and not the establishment of doctrine - even if these men are right in their evaluation.

There are still others who feel there were two visits prior to this, though I think this has the least amount of evidence in support of it. There are many other views in between. You can't establish such an important aspect of hermeneutic on a text which is not only obviously not meant to do so, but which is unclear in terms of what it is referring to.

Witness #4 & 5 are basically the same thing. Two sources both saying that 'witness' as translated can refer to the testimony given by a person's actions - such as those of the martyrs. It is the act - losing their life for Christ's sake - which speaks in this usage, not the written account of the events. Your emphasis is misplaced.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Shamgar,

You said: “When we say 'the Church' we are talking about the gathered body of believers making up the (a) local church. The building is irrelevant. You say that they would not have understood a distinction between the two. Then I ask you, in 1 Cor 15:26-33 (which is what I meant to quote earlier, sorry for the confusion) did the believers at Corinth misunderstand this to mean they could not pray in a foreign language in the privacy of their own home (when the gathered body was not present) unless there was an interpreter present?”

I agree that the building is irrelevant. The early church would have understood that. They also would have understood that there is a difference between gathering together in Jesus’ name and being in the same home location by themselves. That is exactly what my point was. Wherever the church is gathered in Jesus name is when Paul’s admonitions were meant for. When the church met in a person’s home, the believer’s were not to speak in tongues unless there was an interpreter present. When the believers left and the person was left alone, they could pray in tongues all they wanted. The admonitions then were for the gathering of believers wherever that was. If the believers met on the law outside the local school, then that was the church gathering. If the believers met in the living room of a person’s home, then that was the church gathering. My point was that one could not allow a woman to have a bible study with other believers in her own home, yet forbid her to have that same study with the same believers in a Sunday School room. Do you understand my point, or do I need to say it in a different way?

You said: “What particularly saddens me is that it seems the lack of a solid theological foundation has made your eisegesis so easy.” I have given evidence to prove that God always confirms his commands. Yesterday I documented OT evidence – two scriptures that show that repetition is important to God for our benefit. I have shown you that Paul said that repetition is important for our benefit. My friend, it is easy to sit back and have no confirmation for your position and then try to say that my solid biblical evidence is worth nothing when you have not shown how it is not applicable nor have you shown how it isn’t valid today. God has been consistent through human history and he has made his commands known to man by repeating them for our benefit. Now if you had any evidence that God’s purpose is to stop godly Christian women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men in 1 Timothy 2, then you would have shown it by now. The fact is that this is tradition, now proper exegesis. Proper exegesis always takes into consideration the context. Please show me what verse reveals that Paul’s purpose was to stop correct teaching. Let me see how you exegete the passage to input that understanding. Now if you agree with me that Paul’s purpose was to stop false teaching and false doctrine, we can agree completely. But the ball is in your court. Don’t just talk, show scripture. Where are you getting your understanding from that proves that Paul is not stopping false doctrine, but he is stopping the teaching of true doctrine?

I certainly do understand that you believe this with all your heart. I can see your passion and I can appreciate that you are a Christian who loves God and loves the word of God. Man, I could use your kind of passion when I am surrounded by Jehovah’s Witnesses who are angry with me because I believe that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. I push them too to prove their position by scripture. I take them to the context surrounding the verse that they are using as their “proof” text. The context will always support or deny your position. That is why I pushed you for support in the context. That is why I ask you to prove to me that Paul is stopping the teaching of correct biblical doctrine. The Bible is so very precious to me and I have given my life to understand and apply it no matter what the personal cost.

You said: “Allow me to quote what you actually said:
How I see it, it is the complementarians way of making a womans ministry in the church ineffective. You can honestly tell me that you don't see how one would get "motive" from that statement?” Perhaps I should have put the “way” before complementarians. In other words when complementarians refuse to allow women to teach men in the body of Christ but allow her to teach them one at a time, the way that this is done only makes a woman’s ministry in the church ineffective. I apologize if in any way that I worded this that could have caused you to be hurt. I do not believe that most complementarians have a bad motive. I have met some that are nasty and like to put people down and call them names, but these kinds of complementarians are a definite minority. I believe that those who want to follow the bible no matter where it leads are truly my brothers and sisters in Christ. For many of these, when they see evidence provided that God has no restrictions on women who preach the truth of his word to anyone that God puts in their path, they come to support women in ministry because they have no real prejudice against women. I have been privileged to dialogue with some of them as they write me after seeing WIM. Their eyes have been opened and I praise God for that. I believe the kingdom of God will be advanced when we all work shoulder to shoulder to preach the gospel to the lost men and women and to teach God’s truth to the body of Christ.

You also said: “I can say it is God's precept without submitting myself to your imposed requirements. Scripture makes no such requirements.” I have shown you that two or three witnesses is a scriptural requirement. All you have to do to disprove me is to take just one simple command by God and show that it is not repeated in scripture. If you can do that, then you have refuted the requirement of scripture to be confirmed.

You said: “I wonder though, off the top of my head I thought of three places where Paul makes an explicit command which I believe are not duplicated elsewhere in scripture in the same fashion.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
2 Thesallonians 3:12
1 Timothy 1:18-20”

Shamgar, thank you so much for taking the time to test God’s 100% compliance to repetition of his commandments. Let’s have a look at the verses that you site.

2 Thess. 3:6: This commandment is to stay away from brothers who are unruly and do not follow the ordinances from the Apostles. This is repeated in 2 Timothy 3:5; Romans 16:17 and 1 Corinthians 15:11-13.

2 Thess. 3:12: This command is to not live an undisciplined life but to work for your living. This is repeated in Ephesians 4:8 and 1 Thess. 4:11

1 Tim. 1:18-20: This command is to fight the good fight of the faith. This command is repeated in 2 Tim. 4:1-3; 1 Tim 6:12, 2 Tim 2:3-5, Eph 6:12-18.

None are commandments that are without scriptural support. All of them are repeated. Do you have anymore commandments to check? It is no trouble for me to check them with you.

Regarding the statement of faith of our ministry, I already told you that it was not created by me and needed some tweaking so that it is not misunderstood. Do you remember reading that? Regarding Calvinism, we do not accept as some Calvinists believe that Jesus did not die for the entire world. There are many Calvinists who believe that Jesus died for the whole world and in this, we believe as they do. We believe that Jesus died for everyone but that not everyone comes to Christ in faith to have the payment applied to their account. That is a valid Christian doctrinal belief. As far as Calvinism itself, I believe that Calvinists are my brothers and sisters in Christ as I would hope they would see me as a dear sister in Christ too. In fact one of my very favorite Pastors that I listen to daily is Bob DeWaay. Bob is a Calvinist preacher who teaches through the bible verse by verse. He is caring and loving and I can’t remember hearing him preach anything that I haven’t agreed with. He presents the truth of scripture in such a way that I agree with him and when I am painting and working on getting my house ready for sale, I listen to Bob’s messages all day long. There is no division here at all and should not be in the body of Christ.

Regarding my denomination’s statement of faith, you said: “And yet you believe that Christ died for all men - presumably meaning every individual man based on the context of the documents in question and the rejection of Calvinistic thought. In light of that, I'd like you to ponder this. Are you then a universalist? If Christ died bearing the punishment of each individual person's sin - then what is left to be atoned for? And if you are not a universalist, do you then charge God with injustice for double-jeapordy for those who go to hell for sins for which Christ died?”

I can hardly believe that you would stoop to equating a belief that isn’t Calvinism to be universalist. I won’t even bother to engage you on this one. You surprise and sadden me. I really thought that you would be kind and gracious and represent other people’s belief in an honest fashion.

So the bottom line here is that you still need to prove that God has forbidden godly women from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men. I am still waiting for the evidence.

Take care,
Cheryl

Cheryl Schatz said...

Guys, guys, guys,

You will have to give me time to work here before I come back with the answers to your latest. Thanks for asking, though. Great discussion!!

One quick note for Colin, I asked for verifiable evidence that I can look up. You must have missed giving it. Please quote your sources. How can I test it without looking it up?

Cheryl

believer333 said...

Mark wrote:
“The charge for elders in 1 Timothy cannot be backed up by citing Titus since, as I understand, Titus was written after 1 Timothy. Also, that would just be citing Paul again leaving him to be his own witness.”

Well, then we can say that the epistle to Timothy is backing up Titus in that respect. ☺

In thinking that the repetition must be from someone else, I think you are missing the point and purpose in noting repetition. Repetition clarifies. This is why Paul said that it is not burdensome for him to repeat things. When I am trying to get a primary point across to someone, I repeat it from different angles hoping that by doing so the hearer (or reader) will begin to actually get the true point that I am expressing.

One of the interesting points I am seeing by what Cheryl has been saying on this subject, is that it is amazingly easy to interpret something incorrectly if it is not backed up and validated by other sources. The other sources fine tune and secure the intent. Without such fine tuning, we cannot be certain.

There is an inherent weakness already in interpreting the eight Greek words in 1 Tim. 2 to be imposing a new restriction on Christian women. The opposite has been true throughout the OT. Instead of any restriction ever being written or exercised in OT history, women were chosen by God to serve whenever He wanted. The first three leaders chosen by God in Israels history, included a woman. Thus, it becomes ever so necessary to see this “new law” repeated in some fashion somewhere when the usage of it is to do an about face from history.

Shamgar said...

My point was that one could not allow a woman to have a bible study with other believers in her own home, yet forbid her to have that same study with the same believers in a Sunday School room. Do you understand my point, or do I need to say it in a different way?

No. I see that we are talking past each other. You would seem to say that anytime a group of believers gather together for biblestudy it constitutes the 'gathered body' or 'Church'. I disagree with that. God has laid down in the new testament specific parameters around what constitutes church and having multiple believers together is not sufficient.

If I and 2 friends from church and meet in my backyard it's not church. If we talk about scripture, it's still not church. If we pray afterwards, it is still not church. Scripture gives a specific definition about what the local church is.

Bottom line, as you have just noted, there is a valid distinction between church and home, and Paul *can* and *did* give commands that were only valid for inside the church vs inside the home.

My friend, it is easy to sit back and have no confirmation for your position and then try to say that my solid biblical evidence is worth nothing when you have not shown how it is not applicable nor have you shown how it isnt valid today.

I have given you my position in depth. My position is the historical Christian belief. It has been held for 2000 years. It is well defined. I do not need to waste everyone's time repeating it again. If you are not familiar with it, there are entire volumes devoted to the topic of biblical ecclesiology. I understand Alexander Strauch's book 'Biblical Eldership' on this topic is quite good. The burden of proof is on you to prove that the Church has operated in ignorance on this topic for 2000 years.

For my part you have my argument. You have read the Scriptures. They speak plainly. Your desire to see the Scriptures say what you want them to say (conscious or not) is blinding you to the truth. You cannot accept what Paul is saying on its face, and so you have felt the need to manufacture a new way of reading scripture, and facts not in evidence to support your position.

Perhaps I should have put the way before complementarians. In other words when complementarians refuse to allow women to teach men in the body of Christ but allow her to teach them one at a time, the way that this is done only makes a womans ministry in the church ineffective.

Perhaps. If this were the only time I would've glossed over it. But it was a trend in the discussion at that point and it had gotten old. I don't think you were intending to be hateful nor was I "hurt" by it. Offended != hurt - particularly in this case. It is not my desire to make you feel guilty or evoke an apology just careful language. This kind of communication lends itself to misunderstandings.

You then took my examples and summarized them into generic points and applied them to other areas. To date, it has not seemed this is acceptable to you as a means of providing secondary sources. Fine, Paul's point is primarily that he does not allow women to teach from positions of authority. This is backed up in his exclusion of women from the being and elder/overseer in 1 tim 3:2 and tit 1:6. Trouble is, since you reject the historical interpretation of both, you use that as a basis to reject the teaching of Paul in the passage in question on the basis that it has no other counterpart. Further, you demand OT examples - even though the church as it exists in the NT is radically different from the church in the OT. When I pointed out that in the OT, the closest parallel was the priestly line in the tribe of Levi - and all of the priests were male - you rejected that as relevant as well.

It has been pointed out to you that your interpretation of the fall is faulty, and without basis in historical orthodox Christianity. It has been demonstrated that your understanding of the greek is lacking (despite whatever some pastors may or may not have told you). Your grasp of biblical hermeneutics in evaluating the passages in question and others that have been brought up on both sides is likewise hampered by the artifical limitations and constraints you put upon Scripture.

Think of it this way. Some people deny the trinity. They frequently demand to be shown where the trinity is taught in the bible. When it is demonstrated to them where it is taught they reject it, saying things like "No, where is the *word* trinity in the bible?". Others seek to deny that homosexuality is wrong. They likewise put all kinds of restrictions on interpretation and apply their own view of history to events that is unknown to the historical record and to historical orthodox Christianity. Knowing what you have said already here and elsewhere I know you would not endorse these things. But you are doing the same thing just for a different purpose.

Further, because you see the ends as good "What I perceive to be good teaching will get taught" you have justified the means to yourself to obtain that end. You have convinced yourself that God would never prevent someone from saying something that was true by command. You've convinced yourself that if God really didn't want you to do it, he'd stop you. This is not supported by Scripture either in teaching or example (in fact, there are some scary counter-examples) but that doesn't seem to bother you.

As to the calvinism comment - again I'm not interested in diverging our topic further into this area. I simply wanted to give you some food for thought. However, I don't want to allow your misconceptions of what I was saying to poison our discussion - so I will reply briefly.

First, I never said your not having a calvinistic view would mean you didn't view us this way, nor did I say we would not view you that way. However, I would take issue with your assertion that Christ dying for the whole world but not everyone has it applied to their account is a valid Christian doctrinal belief. It is *a* Christian doctrinal belief but its validity is another story. Perhaps something we can debate at another time (and probably on another forum).

I can hardly believe that you would stoop to equating a belief that isnt Calvinism to be universalist.

You are of course blowing this out of proportion, but I think you know that. I didn't equate *all* non-calvinistic belief with universalism. Nor did I accuse you directly of being a universalist. And with the most charitable reading why would I not be willing to equate a position which logically results in universalism with ...universalism? How else would I ask the question or offer it as food for thought?

I really thought that you would be kind and gracious and represent other peoples belief in an honest fashion.

I did represent your beliefs in an honest fashion. I quoted directly and completely from the statements of faith that you gave to me. You might take issue with small points, as you mentioned, but you just stated that you agreed overall with the points in question.

From there, I drew the logical conclusions of believing in substitutionary atonement and Christ dying for every individual man. I'm just asking you to consider the implications of those two things. If Christ died in the place of every individual man and paid the full penalty for his sin - on what basis can he then be sent to hell? And if Christ didn't pay for every sin (say - the sin of unbelief?) then how do we atone for that sin? By something we do? (coming to Christ in faith?) How does that work?

I don't think I have mis-represented your beliefs or their conclusions. But it's not my intent to press the matter, as long as the air is clear on my intent and meaning.

believer333 said...

Shamgar wrote:
“If I and 2 friends from church and meet in my backyard it's not church. If we talk about scripture, it's still not church. If we pray afterwards, it is still not church. Scripture gives a specific definition about what the local church is.”

Sounds to me like there is some confusion over what the church is and what the gathering of the church is. Ekklesia is used both to express the universal body of Christ and it is also used to express the gathering of the church body. I’m sure you are aware that church gatherings were very informal in the early days. While anytime 2 or more Christians met together, that was “the” church, it was not the same as a deliberate gathering together of the body of Christ for ministry. However, as Cheryl stated, they did meet in homes. They also met along the river side. I fail to see how it would matter where they met or how many there were meeting together, or what difference it would make if the meeting was planned or not.

“Bottom line, as you have just noted, there is a valid distinction between church and home, and Paul *can* and *did* give commands that were only valid for inside the church vs inside the home.”

There is no “inside” the church. We ARE the church. We the people are the temple for the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps we have confusion over ministry of the church. 1 Cor. 14 does have much to say about the ministering of the Holy Spirit when the church body gathered together. Those guidelines would be effective any time the Holy Spirit decided to move through a member of the body of Christ regardless how many other Christians were with them.

Can you please share what your Scriptural references are for there being a distinction of places the church meets.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Shamgar,

I do not doubt that you are a Christian. However you are continuing to equate my belief with Universalism and that is unacceptable. I have seen this behavior many times when I have worked with a cultist who is unable to answer the challenge. The cultist then runs off to another corner to start an argument or he/she changes the subject to get away from the “hot seat”. I can’t tell you how many times I have been told by Jehovah’s Witnesses that I believe that Jesus is the same person as the Father because I say that I believe that Jesus is God. He consistently misrepresent what Christians believe because it is easy to knock down a straw man rather than actually listening. I would instruct you on how I have learned how to work outside the closed mind on this one with Jehovah’s Witnesses, however this is a dialogue on the scriptural view of women teaching correct biblical doctrine to men, so I will leave this other subject for another time. I have always patiently worked with a cultist that uses same tactic because I am fighting for his salvation. Since I believe that you are my brother in Christ, I will leave you to anyone else that will allow you to go down a rabbit trail. Or maybe you are really going to leave the discussion, I don’t know. I prefer to dialogue with people who are respectful and who are willing to answer a challenge from scripture.

To my other brothers, I will get back to you as soon as I can. My time is so limited, right now, but I will answer you. I appreciate the willingness to dialogue.

God bless,
Cheryl

Shamgar said...

I do not doubt that you are a Christian.

I never said you did. I was expressing that I understood that, and that I was not in any way trying to intimate that you were not

However you are continuing to equate my belief with Universalism and that is unacceptable.

I did not say that you do actually believe universalism.

I was saying that the combination of beliefs you hold lead inevitably *to* universalism if you apply them consistently. However, I'm quite sure you do not given the other things you say.

You want to use apologetic encounters as an analogy, I can do the same. Frequently when talking to people who hold to naturalistic materialism - especially atheists - once demonstrating to them how they have no basis for reasoning with their worldview they tell me I'm wrong because they *do* reason. They're right, they do. Just they do so because they steal from my worldview and live inconsistently with their own.

I have seen this behavior many times when I have worked with a cultist who is unable to answer the challenge. The cultist then runs off to another corner to start an argument or he/she changes the subject to get away from the “hot seat”.

She says as she responds to one small side point I gave as food for thought, and then replied to her objections on - while ignoring the majority of the content of my post.

I'm sure you have encountered that. I have too. Interestingly, in my experience they don't at the same time actually respond to my questions/objections. But whatever. I brought up the other point because my impression of you suggested it might be something you'd find worthy of spending some time chewing on. I guess I was wrong. Your blinders are on full time, and any attempt to address pre-established conclusions and philosophical commitments is apparently off-limits. I'm content to drop this aspect of our discussion (in the context of this thread) if you are.

Unknown said...

I get the feeling you are digging for definitions to refute my point without thinking about what you are referencing. I have maintained the same two points throughout, and will reiterate them here:
1) You say, ”Safe facts are verifiable in scripture by being repeated.” This is a major presupposition that is not supported in the text. You make a leap from the witness argument to this.
2) You misuse the Greek to support your fallacious hermeneutic.

On point 1: Regarding John 5, if Jesus did not have the witness of the Father, he would not be God. Jesus most certainly is not saying that what he says is only true because he has witnesses, but that the presence of those particular witnesses make him God. A quick perusal of different translations will show you the difficulty in the Greek here, and I think the ESV has it right with “not deemed true.” Further, in John, Jesus appears to be on trial throughout. This witness testimony is part of the evidence John presents. I do not think he is calling the Scripture as part of his 2-3 witnesses, but I wouldn’t say that rules out the possibility. The fact is this: what Jesus says is true, period. As a matter of fact, the presence of 2-3 witnesses in Scripture NEVER makes anything true, but simply provides a witness. Consider someone being put to death on the testimony of 2-3 false witnesses. The testimony is bolstered by the witnesses, but is still untrue. 2-3 witnesses therefore do not establish truth.

On point 2: I did the Greek work myself with Bibleworks, in which I have BDAG (by far the best lexicon out there), Newman, Friberg, Liddell-Scott, Louw-Nida, and Thayer’s (which refers to those people witnessing in the legal sense, etc.); and finally the UBS 4th ed. Greek New Testament. You reference Philippians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 1:23, which both in context refer to God as the witness, not a WRITTEN RECORD, and certainly not Scripture. This fits into my original findings, that 3144 is a creature or God, not a written record. The KJV is in the minority (by a wide margin) here on the word choice, but that still does not change the definition of the word in context- it is still God. This point stands, not on Strong’s, but on the Greek New Testament.

I do not believe 2 Cor 13:1 to be referring to Paul’s letters as separate witnesses. This makes no sense, for he is the same witness. The letters are penned by him, and there is no reason to think Paul thought the Holy Spirit was witnessing through him in the letter that became Scripture (at least one of them, which would have made it the 2nd witness of the HS). But the main reason is that Paul clearly indicates in the text that his coming will be in person (10:2; 12:20, 21).

I am admittedly a novice in Greek, having had two years now of classroom training. This is why it is so surprising to me that your theological conclusions pass with such ease, as others should be able to spot the error. I suspect from your answers you have had none, which is fine, but know Strong’s isn’t the authority you want it to be.

I will address your hermeneutic in the next post. This is my final post on these points, for I do not get the impression you are open to considering that you are wrong. I have taken all your points seriously, and have spent time in the text studying them at length.
Colin

Cheryl Schatz said...

Hello Colin,

I am absolutely open to discussing this issue. It is very important. I will see what time I have this weekend, but it will be hard as my grandkids are staying over for the weekend and a 2 year old and 4 year old are very time-consuming. Please allow me to put a bookmark in this topic and I will continue the discussion. It is extremely important to me and there is much to say.

Blessings!
Cheryl

Unknown said...

Cheryl,

On your hermeneutic itself:

You are addressing imperatives in the NT, which can have (among others) a command or prohibition syntactical function. You have claimed that every negative command (imperative of prohibition) requires "another witness" from the Scripture. Since every command has an implied prohibition and vice versa, your hermeneutic applies to all imperatives and verbs used as imperatives in the NT. In other words, there is no distinction between positive and negative commands other than the syntax chosen by the author. For example, the command for women not to teach or have authority over a man could be rephrased, "Men be the teachers and those of authority..." The positive or negative nuance was the choice of the author. The logical conclusion is that, like the NT prohibitions, the NT imperatives must have an OT witness. Logically, your hermeneutic has to require a second witness for every imperative described above.

So, the first imperative I considered: Matt 18:19-20

Where is the OT antecedent for this, much less baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

And this one? 1 Corinthians 14:39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

We can start there.


So in this, you have divided the Bible in half other than reading it as it is: a whole; one book; one story; one God. You have claimed Scripture must witness against itself. It is one single revelation that derives its authority from the one person it aims to reveal, Jesus Christ.

Not only is the above hermeneutic wrong, it is dangerous. It completely misses the point of revelation, and completely undermines the authority of the inspired text. It is reminiscent of the Gnostics’ special knowledge, and the rigid interpretational grids employed by the Watchtower Society.

I implore you to take your teaching and submit it to a scholarly evangelical journal for review by the Christian community. Take your Greek work to a Greek scholar at a seminary. Look into the history of your hermeneutic, and be open to change. I have tried and failed, not to refute you, but to convince you.

Blessings,

Colin

Unknown said...

Don't feel like you must respond, Cheryl. I don't know if we are actually making progress here.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Mark,

You said: “When Scripture tells us about having two witnesses we are told this was established in the Law as Jesus says in John 8 in order to validate a testimony. The witnesses weren’t used to establish Law, but were part of the all ready established Law. This helps attest to whether one’s testimony is true or false.”

Two or three witnesses are certainly necessary to validate a testimony. It is also necessary to establish a fact. Jesus said in John 5:31 “If I alone testify in My behalf, My testimony is not valid and cannot be worth anything.” Amplified bible. The ESV says “If I alone bear witness about myself, my testimony is not deemed true.” Jesus takes his claim of Deity into the realm of what is acceptable in a court of law. Take notice here that Jesus is claiming something very important. He claims that his single testimony is not acceptable as evidence and therefore would not be considered true. He claims that it would not be acceptable in a court of law (by saying “is not deemed true” and this is a direct reference to a court of law). Albert Barnes’ notes on the Bible says: The word “true,” here, means worthy of belief, or established by suitable evidence.”

Adam Clarke says: “If I had no proof to bring of my being the Messiah, and equal to God, common sense would direct you to reject my testimony; but the mighty power of God, by which I work my miracles, sufficiently attests that my pretensions are well founded.” So a second or third witness is a “proof”, an attesting to the facts. Matthew Henry says: “He sets aside his own testimony of himself (Joh_5:31): “If I bear witness of myself, though it is infallibly true (Joh_8:14), yet, according to the common rule of judgment among men, you will not admit it as legal proof, nor allow it to be given in evidence.”

Robertson’s Word Pictures also confirms the witnesses the proofs that Jesus claims on his behalf. He says: “But here Jesus yields to the rabbinical demand for proof outside of himself. He has the witness of another (the Father, Joh_5:32, Joh_5:37), the witness of the Baptist (Joh_5:33), the witness of the works of Jesus (Joh_5:36), the witness of the Scriptures (Joh_5:39), the witness of Moses in particular (Joh_5:45).”

Why would Jesus’ testimony be invalid and why would his testimony not be true if it were not validated by a second witness? It would be invalid because God has deemed truth to be verifiable with at least a second or third witness. There is no doctrine, there are no commands of scripture that exist without a second or third witness. Show me even one command that is without a second witness. There are none! Not even one! God’s word is 100% compliant and every command is verified.

Jesus then goes on to give what is valid for his testimony as the Son of God. In John 5:33 Jesus gives John (a man) as a witness. In John 5:36 Jesus lists the second valid witness as his works (the record of his deeds). He says: “But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.”

In John 5:37 Jesus lists the witness as the Father (God himself). Lastly Jesus lists scripture (the written record) as testifying about him. In this testimony Jesus has included the four forms of valid testimony – a human, the record of his works, God himself and scripture. All four are acceptable and all four are used by Jesus to verify his claim to Deity. For one to claim that only a human living witness is a valid witness, flies in the face of the evidence and the words of the Lord Jesus. Jesus claimed and I accept that works are acceptable as a witness and the scriptures are acceptable as a witness.

You said: “So even for Paul to be able to accuse the people in question of teaching false doctrine, using the two or more witnesses protocol, his accusation would have to be attested to by another.”

Absolutely not true. Not only did Jesus show that a person is not the only witness that is accepted in a court of law (works and the scripture were also accepted), Rabbinical law allowed the written record and documented works to be valid witnesses. A written oath was considered as a valid witness in that the person and his oath were considered two witnesses. The Talmud says: “But for what purpose is a single witness [competent]? Shall we say, for the actual payment of money?28 then his testimony is Biblically invalid! If for [the administration of] an oath, then his evidence is [legally] as trustworthy as that of two! 29” Sanhedrin 23a.

You also said: (regarding my claim that women were allowed to teach the bible to men without hindrance for thousands of years before Christ) “This would be an argument from silence and the conclusion is assumed. You’re giving us an example of prohibition you say is not there then saying that means it is okay to do.”

Again you have missed the point. God’s character is consistent in that he identifies sin in order to expose it and to turn people away from it. It is inconsistent with God’s character to be silent on the “sin” of women teaching the bible to men. Therefore it is not an argument from silence, but an argument from God’s character. If God deemed this a sin, then he would have had to identify that sin and warn people (women) to stay away from it. God is very serious on sin and he not only gave us a conscience that identifies sin, but his word identifies sin. The “sin” of women teaching the bible to men is never identified in scripture. Yet at the same time, God had women who taught scripture to men. Huldah taught God’s Word. The King of Judah sent men to Huldah to inquire of the Lord and Huldah spoke God’s word to the men. God used her to speak his words when he had male prophets in the land. Jeremiah had been prophesying for 5 years already at the time that Huldah was consulted, yet the men were sent to Huldah and not to Jeremiah. God had a man available, yet God used a woman. If it was a law of God that women are not to teach the God’s word to men, then God should not have given his word to a woman. God clearly didn’t have such a law at this time because God does not break his own rules.

You asked: “How does the OT validate its own laws? Who validates the OT then?” There is no problem with the OT validating itself. Paul said that his coming to the Corinthians three times was in fulfillment of the “two or three witnesses” regulation to establish a matter. If Paul can be a valid legal witness by bring separate documented facts each time, and the Talmud shows that one witness can be equal to two witnesses by providing a written oath, then surely God’s word in the OT can verify itself.

You also said: God promised that he would provide the two or three witnesses so that everything would be validated, understandable and enforceable. “Where does God promise this? Job 33:14 doesn’t claim this. Job 33:14 certainly does claim this.”

Read it again. This time I am quoting the NET bible “For God speaks, the first time in one way, the second time in another, though a person does not perceive it.”

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary says: “Translate, “Yet, man regardeth it not”; or rather, as Umbreit, “Yea, twice (He repeats the warning)”

Keil &Delitzsch Commentary says: “In diverse ways or by different means God speaks to mortal man - he does not believe it, it is his own fault if he does perceive it.”

God makes sure that we know what he says because we are responsible. If we don’t perceive it even after he tells us and repeats himself again and again, it is our own fault.

You also said: “It seems that Joseph’s dreams from the Lord about Mary’s pregnancy, escaping from Herod etc. seem to only be dreamt once. Not to mention that Pharoah’s dream was not presented to establish a universal law.” Not every dream or vision is repeated in scripture but every FACT is. Joseph told us that God repeats the facts to show that the facts must be established. Joseph’s dream was not repeated, but the FACT was. God told Joseph about Mary’s pregnancy that it was from God, God told Mary that she would be pregnant with a child from God and God also told Elizabeth that Mary was the mother of the Messiah and lastly the baby inside Elizabeth was filled with the Spirit when Mary (with child) came to Elizabeth. Every fact once again has been established by at least two or three witnesses.

Your last question regarding “The charge for elders in 1 Timothy cannot be backed up by citing Titus since, as I understand, Titus was written after 1 Timothy. Also, that would just be citing Paul again leaving him to be his own witness.” I must commend Believer333 as she gave the exact same answer as I was going to give but she was much quicker than I am. I will also add that Paul is not disqualified as being a second witness. In fact I would accept Paul as a second witness to the teaching that it is a “sin” for a woman to teach correct biblical doctrine to men if you could find such a repeating of the “sin” by Paul. Paul consistently repeated his teachings because he said that this was “safe” for us.

All of this is VERY important. Having a second witness to a fact and to the charge of sin is extremely important. I would like to challenge you again….show a second witness that shows that a woman teaching correct biblical doctrine to men is a sin. If you cannot do that, could you please exegete 1 Timothy 1 & 2 to show how you can (in context) supply an exegetical apologetic explanation for the passage regarding how the stopping of teaching of correct biblical doctrine can fit into this passage? I thank you in advance.

It is now after 1 am. I didn’t think I would have much time this weekend to write this very important apologetic answer so I stayed up to finish it. I hope that those of you who are reading this but who have been silently in the background will consider all that has been said. It is not a small thing to claim to believe in the one “sin” that has no second scripture as a backup. It is also no small matter to charge a woman with sin for teaching correct biblical doctrine to men when the bible lists no such sin. We are not to judge unfairly or the bible says that we will be judged. Test all things, hold fast to what is good.

Blessings to you all,
Cheryl

Shamgar said...

Well said Colin.

believer333 said...

Cheryl,

I am so blessed by your thoroughness of research. This is an important truth that has been missed by many, even though it's been right in front of our noses all the time.

I do hope that you gather up every bit of Biblical evidence to support this and write a book - if you haven't already.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Thank you Belever333! Yes I have been encouraged by many to put my research into a book. I would like to put my DVD series into book form and include it with all the additional apologetic research that I have developed since the DVD was produced. Problem is that I also have a series on marriage rolling around in my head about the headship issue and I would like to get that project going too, and with full-time ministry it is difficult to get everything accomplished that should be done. God-willing this is the direction that I would like to go in.

Blessings for your encouragement!
Cheryl

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Colin,

As promised I am back to answer your questions.

Your first point said: “You say, ”Safe facts are verifiable in scripture by being repeated.” This is a major presupposition that is not supported in the text.”

I have very carefully supported by statements by scripture. I have shown that Paul said repetition was for our safety. I have shown that even Jesus supported his claims with the required two or three witness. I have also documented with two solid witnesses that God always repeats his established facts and his laws. I have established a solid foundation and my interpretation of scripture is based on what scripture says about repetition, not on my own ideas.

You said: “Jesus most certainly is not saying that what he says is only true because he has witnesses, but that the presence of those particular witnesses make him God.”

Well, I don’t know if you mean what you said, but witnesses cannot “make” him God. He either is God or he isn’t. A human being can’t make him God, however Jesus’ claim to Deity would not have been established as truth in a legal sense without the required two or three witnesses.

You said: “I do not think he is calling the Scripture as part of his 2-3 witnesses, but I wouldn’t say that rules out the possibility. The fact is this: what Jesus says is true, period.”

I agree with you that what Jesus says is true. Jesus also gave a list of those things that testify about him. This list included a human, God, scripture (authoritative text) and the works or deeds of Jesus. That pretty much covers everything that was allowable in court. By this Jesus showed that he knew how the Jews interpreted the 2 or 3 witnesses and their interpretation was correct. It is also interesting to note that Jesus said in John 5:34 “But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.” Jesus said that having his claim to Deity validated was necessary for their salvation. It is a pretty impressive claim coming from Jesus himself, that their salvation hinged on whether Jesus’ Deity was verified.

You said: “As a matter of fact, the presence of 2-3 witnesses in Scripture NEVER makes anything true, but simply provides a witness.”

I would add that it provides the LEGAL PROOF of the claim. A claim that is not or cannot be verified is not considered true. So rather than being a “simple” witness, the witnesses are “necessary” for a legal claim.

You said: “Consider someone being put to death on the testimony of 2-3 false witnesses. The testimony is bolstered by the witnesses, but is still untrue. 2-3 witnesses therefore do not establish truth.”

Rather, the testimony is verified as true by the witnesses. A person can be a murderer, but legally they cannot be found guilty unless there are at least two witnesses. Now these witnesses do not have to be persons. After all, even in our courts, verifiable evidence can be DNA, fingerprint evidence or other solid facts that testify to the guilt of the person. How many murders happen in the sight of two or three witnesses? Even in our courts, we will convict a person without a single human seeing the crime. God was not unjust to require two humans to see a murder before the murderer to be found guilty. The Jews properly understand the “two or three witnesses” and their own law books show that the witnesses can be evidence or a written record.

You said: “You misuse the Greek to support your fallacious hermeneutic.”

It is easy to say that my hermeneutic is deceptive and misleading (fallacious), however that is just your opinion unless you can refute my evidence.

You said: “On point 2: I did the Greek work myself with Bibleworks, in which I have BDAG (by far the best lexicon out there), Newman, Friberg, Liddell-Scott, Louw-Nida, and Thayer’s (which refers to those people witnessing in the legal sense, etc.); and finally the UBS 4th ed. Greek New Testament. You reference Philippians 1:8 and 2 Corinthians 1:23, which both in context refer to God as the witness, not a WRITTEN RECORD, and certainly not Scripture.”

Let me call attention to a fact that you missed. 2 Corinthians 1:23 is a written record of an oath. This type of oath is a classic idiom frequent in literature from Homer onward. Paul’s words are the “full form of an oath” in writing and he asks (appeals) to God to attest to these words. (See John Gill’s exposition of the Bible) That, my friend, is a request for a record to the oath. I would also recommend you do some research in the Talmud regarding the subject of oaths. It is a long read, but interesting and enlightening. Because Paul is making an oath, it is completely right to use the word “record” regarding the request that he is making for God to attest to his oath. “Record” is a proper word in response to the written oath.

You said: “I do not believe 2 Cor 13:1 to be referring to Paul’s letters as separate witnesses. This makes no sense, for he is the same witness. The letters are penned by him, and there is no reason to think Paul thought the Holy Spirit was witnessing through him in the letter that became Scripture (at least one of them, which would have made it the 2nd witness of the HS). But the main reason is that Paul clearly indicates in the text that his coming will be in person (10:2; 12:20, 21).”

Let me see if I can help to change your mind. In 2 Cor. 13:1 “I am coming” is in the present tense. The “coming” that Paul is talking about is happening right then. This is clearly contrasted in verse two where Paul says “I have previously said when present the second time, and though now absent I say in advance to those who have sinned in the past and to all the rest as well that if I come again I will not spare anyone”. Now I want you to pay attention to a couple of things in this second verse. Notice first of all that that although Paul said in verse 1 “I am coming” present tense, verse two says “if I come again”. You can’t “come” in the present and at the same time say “***if*** I come”.

There is only one way to make sense of verse one and two. Verse one is the required third witness (Paul’s letter) which was coming in the present to the Corinthians. Verse two shows that Paul’s physical coming may or may not happen. Why? It all depends on if the Corinthians decide to do something about the third warning (the third witness). The third witness and Paul’s personal physical coming where he says “I will not spare anyone” have two completely different functions. The third witness must leave time for the Corinthians to respond. It is a witness that requires action. Paul was looking for repentance and he was hoping that his third witness (his letter) would provoke the repentance so that he didn’t need to come in person to administer punishment.

The problem with saying that the “third coming” is not the letter, is that Paul had only been to Corinth once. The other two “comings” were his letters to them. See Matthew Henry’s commentary or Albert Barnes’ commentary which say that Paul had only been in Corinth once.

If you make the third coming as Paul’s coming in person, then you have a big problem to contend with. The problem is that Paul said he would be bringing punishment with him when he comes in person, yet punishment cannot follow unless they have been given the required two or three witnesses. Paul chose to give three witnesses and his “coming” (present tense) had to be that third “coming” that is the letter. After the third witness (the letter), and the punishment will follow if the third witness does not bring repentance.

You also said: “I do not believe 2 Cor 13:1 to be referring to Paul’s letters as separate witnesses. This makes no sense, for he is the same witness.”

For an answer to this, please see my previous post to Mark. The Jews understood that a witness could be a written record and a person could be counted as more than one witness. Evidence that is documented is a witness and Paul was bringing the third witness written down in 2 Corinthians. The Talmudic documentation is powerful and irrefutable because it is the historical records from the very people who interpreted the laws about “two or three witnesses” from the Old Testament.

You said: “I am admittedly a novice in Greek, having had two years now of classroom training. This is why it is so surprising to me that your theological conclusions pass with such ease, as others should be able to spot the error.”

I appreciate that you admitted that you are a novice in Greek. That doesn’t mean that what you say is meaningless even though you are a novice. You are perfectly capable as all of us are to check out the resources available to us. However if you look back at your answers you will see generalities and names of Greek lexicons thrown out but no evidence produced at all that would verify that the term “witness” cannot mean a documented written record. You will also notice that I did document my sources. I provided the tractate from the Talmud where you can find the documentation that you need to see that you are in error. I will also say that it is impossible for the Greek lexicons you said you read to say that a witness cannot be a document, a text, or verifiable works. The reason is so simple. These excellent Greek sources could not deny the historical sources that very carefully (and painfully, and oh so laboriously) document the understanding of the Jews regarding legal witnesses and legal matters. The people who wrote these lexicons would have had access to the Talmud just as I have access for my research. The historical record of the Jews is absolutely powerful in understanding Jesus’ legal claim to Deity.

Lastly you said: “This is my final post on these points, for I do not get the impression you are open to considering that you are wrong. I have taken all your points seriously, and have spent time in the text studying them at length.”

Actually I will tell you that I am absolutely open to any evidence that you can bring that I am wrong. However, I require evidence not opinion. You will probably notice by my documentation that I am a researcher. I go to the primary sources and document things for myself. I check out other people’s quotes and that is why I ask for documentation. If it were to be documented that I am wrong, I am certainly willing to check it out. I will say, though, that if you had some evidence that I am wrong, you would also have a lot of documentation to the contrary that you will have to explain away.

I have enjoyed dialoguing with you. I firmly believe that “iron sharpens iron”. I just hope that the evidenced and the solid hermeneutics I have brought before you and carefully documented will have at least a small impact on you. There is more work for you to do and I respect your willingness in doing that work. Test all things and hold fast to what is good.

I do have one more post of yours to answer, however I have run out of time today. Give me a couple more days to recoup from the weekend with the grandkids and I will be more than willing to engage your challenge regarding “positive” commands.

Colin, be blessed in the name of the Lord Jesus,
Cheryl

Unknown said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Cheryl,

Let me be a little more blunt. I can read Greek, and by novice I meant I have only been doing it 2 years. Can you read Greek without the available resources? My point was that the Greek evidence I presented claerly trumped the resource evidence that you presented (Esp. Strong's, and thus showed it to be faulty in your interpretation. Remember every resource is itself an interpretation on some level, and is not always correct.

As far as I am concerned, you are peddling false teaching, making you a false teacher. I have shown ample evidence from the Greek that your hermeneutic does not work. I will openly oppose your teaching as such.

Wade may give you a pass, but I won't. It is my hopes that people do not stray from the truth with this teaching, and it is out of love that I spent the hours I did addressing your theology. My time is not free, I hope you don't think I argue just to argue. I work with egalitarians all the time, but this is much more concerning.

Again, if you want truth, put your teaching to the test in the Christian scholar community via journals, etc.

Blessings,

Colin

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Colin,

You said: “My point was that the Greek evidence I clearly showed trumped the resource evidence that I showed to be faulty in your interpretation.”

My friend, there was no evidence brought by you and no trump. I sure appreciate that you want to win an argument, but you can’t when you have brought nothing to the table. You quoted nothing, gave no page numbers to show from your “Greek evidence” that supposedly contradicted what I said. You gave lots of generalities and your own opinion but opinion and generalities are not considered evidence. Evidence is hard facts and these hard facts make the evidence easy to be researched and verified. Think about it this way, what “facts” have you brought that would be accepted as evidence in a court of law?
I asked you to provide your evidence that showed that the Greek terms for “witness” cannot mean a written text. To this point you have not brought a single piece of evidence quoted. I also asked you for a second biblical witness to verify that godly Christian women were to be stopped from teaching correct biblical doctrine to men. You were not able to bring a single witness to bear on that either. Then I asked you if you were not able to do either one of these verifications, then to please exegete 1 Timothy 1 & 2 and document your claim that it teaches that correct biblical doctrine is what is being stopped in that entire context. You have not done that either.

I really do appreciate your passion. Passion is a wonderful thing, however passion without evidence is not going to take you anywhere in the doctrinal “court”. In contrast I provided evidence that was quoted and referenced from commentaries, the KJV bible, lexicons, Paul’s oath and claim to his having provided the legal requirement of two or three witnesses, and lastly documented evidence from the Jewish law records that showed their interpretation of the “two or three witnesses” to allowing written documentation and one person qualifying as more than one witness. You have refuted nothing that I provided because you brought no documented proof.

My friend, I am not insulted at all that you called me a false teacher. This is very common amongst the people that I minister to. My ministry is to the cults and having a Jehovah’s Witness call me names or say that I am deceived is very common place. I have great compassion on those in the cults because I understand how very hard it must be to leave false teaching and to admit that one is in error. I also understand how hard it must be to make a change in one’s long-held belief when there are personal consequences to rejecting that belief. Often it will be a loss of friends or family, a rejection in the religious community that they belong to and having to admit that they were the ones who were wrong. But I have also been privileged to see many come free in Christ. While they considered me a great enemy in the beginning, once they have experienced the power of the gospel, they came to love me as a friend who cared enough to share the truth with them.

You said: “Again, if you want truth, put your teaching to the test in the Christian scholar community via journals, etc.”

Thank you for that great advice. I have already done that. Before we even filmed my DVD “Women in Ministry Silenced or Set Free?”, I was in contact with CBMW and I offered to send them a review copy once the editing was done. I didn’t have to do that, but it is important to me as a truth lover to engage the opposition. Surely if I am wrong, they could show me where I am wrong. They graciously accepted and I looked forward to their response. The president of CBMW viewed the material and since then they have refused to comment on the exegesis saying only that we will have to just agree to disagree. I was extremely disappointed as I would have expected they would have at least tried to refute the exegesis. Since that time, many Pastors have seen the documentation from the DVDs and the ones who have contacted us have been very impressed by the evidence presented. If any of these had a refutation, none of them have given a refutation to this point. The DVDs have gone as far as Europe and into Australia and the US and Canada. They have been ordered by seminaries and many scholars have seen the material and still no refutation. No one but you has called me a false teacher.

Colin, my brother, I will pray for you that God will help you to see the importance of documented evidence.

Are you really fighting me as a “false teacher”? Then why do you bless me? I don’t think that is scriptural. But I can in clear conscience accept you as a brother in Christ and I will genuinely bless you.

Blessings to you my brother, my Jesus open your mind to the truth of his word regarding women in ministry,
Cheryl

Unknown said...

Cheryl,

Did you not read my comments? I clearly showed that the masculine martous used for two to three "witnesses" never means "written record." The only refutation you had was the two verses that clearly referred to God, and unless God is a written record... I further backed it up with 4-5 lexicons. Then I showed your little imperative hermeneutic to be faulty, nullifying the Great Commission. But whatever. I can't help you.

By journals, I mean submit a document to journals like Bibliotheca Sacra, The Emmaus Journal, The Masters Seminary Journal, The Southern (or Southwestern) Baptist Journal(s) of Theology, etc. And yes, the Journal for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is a scholarly journal, and I am not surprised they didn't feel they needed to reply. That is my point. Perhaps take it to the local seminary and get a published professor to look your methodology over.

I am telling you, if your scholarship is sound, and you feel God has given you the truth after all these years, your article will be printed. It is not a vast conspiracy that of people who are afraid to lose friends.


Blessings,

Colin

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Colin,

Thank you for replying. It is my understanding that you are no longer calling me a false teacher as you have blessed me again. Thank you for accepting me as a sister in Christ.

Yes God does provide a written record; in fact his word is his written record. I asked for verification that that the words for witnesses cannot mean a written record. May I respectfully ask you again to give a quote from your sources that show that a witness cannot be a written record? An argument from silence is not an argument at all as you so aptly have pointed out.

My argument is not from silence. Jesus gave four witnesses two of which were a written record (God’s word thus God himself. And yes, God can be two witnesses with his record and his voice) and Jesus’ works. I think Jesus is a VERY good example to follow regarding legal witnesses. If it is good enough for Jesus to use a written record as one of his witnesses, then why should we argue over words?

I also carefully documented the irrefutable evidence that the Jews viewed the “two or three witnesses” to include the written record. You have said not one word about this powerful witness from the historical record that confirms Jesus’ right to have the written record as one of his witnesses.

I also showed how Paul also claimed that his written letters were his legal witnesses.

I think I know why you are fighting so hard against the fact that every law of God has at least a second witness. I really do feel for you. It must be really nice to think that somehow God has chosen you as a special representative of God and that women are not allowed the privilege of speaking forth God’s words to the congregation because there is some kind of “law” that bans their teaching true doctrine. That must make you feel very special. It is a very nice thing to feel special and I understand that you want to hold on to that. I will allow you to feel special. You are special. You are special because you are one of God’s children and you have been bought with a price. But God has given women his word too and the great commission is for both men and women.

I would love to give this message of truth out to whoever will listen. I will certainly listen to your encouragement for me to get my work published. That is a special thing for you to encourage me considering your opposition.

Unless you can bring documented evidence that will prove your argument, don’t just repeat your opinion. Your opinion will not be useful to me unless it is documented. I already have scriptural evidence that Jesus and Paul used text as a legal witness so I don’t see how your sources could contradict that, but I am always willing to look at documented evidence. I test all things and I hold fast to what is true.

I will be doing some teaching on 1 Corinthians 11 on the issue of “head” on my blog at strivetoenter.com/wim with a new article up within the next two or three days. You are very welcome my brother to pop by and test everything I say. You don’t believe that it is a sin for a man to listen to or to read what a woman teaches do you? If not, you are welcome to come and learn and participate and yes even challenge.

It has been a pleasure to participate on this blog. I appreciate Wade a great deal for allowing the issue of women’s teaching to be discussed. This has allowed us all to test and verify and check out the facts. This is our privilege as followers of Jesus.

Take care and be blessed,
Cheryl

Anonymous said...

"I think I know why you are fighting so hard against the fact that every law of God has at least a second witness. I really do feel for you. It must be really nice to think that somehow God has chosen you as a special representative of God and that women are not allowed the privilege of speaking forth God’s words to the congregation because there is some kind of “law” that bans their teaching true doctrine. That must make you feel very special. It is a very nice thing to feel special and I understand that you want to hold on to that. I will allow you to feel special. You are special. You are special because you are one of God’s children and you have been bought with a price. But God has given women his word too and the great commission is for both men and women."
Cheryl - this type of comment from you simply affirms that your quest for affirmation is more about female power than adherence to Scripture. Yes, the Great Commission is for men and women - it is for all believers. You are confusing several issues in your attempt to justify your conclusions.
Something to consider ...
Take the example of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship. CBF is an organization which affirms women serving as pastors. Yet, Baptist Women in Ministry, an egalitarian organization that affirms many of the principles laid out here by you, found that in 2005, no more than 5.5% of the 1,854 churches affiliated with CBF were led by a woman. So, even an organization that affirms women as pastors does not, in practice, have an abundance of women pastors. Why? Could it be because although there’s a desire to be considered inclusive and open, in their hearts there’s an affirmation that it is out of God’s order for a woman to pastor a man?

Cheryl Schatz said...

Beth,

You said: “Cheryl - this type of comment from you simply affirms that your quest for affirmation is more about female power than adherence to Scripture.”

I am not looking for affirmation or female power. I am not looking for male power either. We need to be diligent in the scriptures to rightly divide the word of truth since God’s word and his law is the key. I am merely operating in the gifts that God has given me and have said nothing at all about power. My arguments have been on scripture and scriptural laws. If you would like to argue about women in power, you will have to discuss this with someone else because I am not interested in power trips even if those who seek to have a name for them selves are women. A Pastor’s heart should always be a servant’s heart and not a heart that seeks for power.

As far as the Baptist Fellowship that you mentioned, a Baptist minister here in Canada reviewed my DVD series and gave me a glowing review. Over coffee he mentioned the concern that he had over the same issue that women are not fully accepted yet by the congregations and it is the congregations who do the hiring. There is a lot of tradition that needs to be overcome so that people can see God’s word alone and not man’s laws. It will take awhile yet before people in the pews are educated in God’s view of women and will venture past their old comfort zone to allow a woman to Pastor them. It is happening and I believe one day we will all look back on this issue and wonder how we could have held women back.

I hope that helps.

In Christ,
Cheryl

Anonymous said...

"It will take awhile yet before people in the pews are educated in God’s view of women and will venture past their old comfort zone to allow a woman to Pastor them. It is happening and I believe one day we will all look back on this issue and wonder how we could have held women back."
Cheryl - do you think it will take another 2000 years and the overturning of the masses of theological, scholarly work that has been done? Do you think that the Holy Spirit will work differently in our hearts, confirming that it's now ok to go with our feelings rather then Scriptural evidence?
In an earlier comment you made the statement that God allows you to teach men and women, as if because God has not supernaturally stopped you, that makes you right. God allows much in the world that is not faithful to His teaching. That's because we live in a fallen world.
Just as a side note - a great commentary is the Women's Evangelical Commentary (New Testament). It is a great resource for women, and it is by women who hold numerous degrees and have a wealth of experience.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Beth,

You asked: “Do you think that the Holy Spirit will work differently in our hearts, confirming that it's now ok to go with our feelings rather then Scriptural evidence?”

No not at all. Feelings are not to be trusted. I have consistently argued on this blog that scripture needs to be appealed to – scripture taken in its context.

You also said: “In an earlier comment you made the statement that God allows you to teach men and women, as if because God has not supernaturally stopped you, that makes you right.”

I have said that God has gifted me to teach and I use that gift with whomever God brings my way. I do not discriminate against men. I will not kick a man out of my bible study who wants to learn. I said nothing about expecting that God would supernaturally stop me. I have consistently appealed to scripture taken in context and I will follow scripture no matter what because I trust that God has revealed his will for men and women within the pages of the bible.

I hope that helps,
Cheryl

kerryn said...

Hello Beth,

The Reformation took nearly a millenium and a half... slavery (still of course sadly in operation in some places) was not overturned as "unbiblical" til the mid 19th Century in the USA... it's less than 50 years ago that race issues began to be handled even remotely biblically in the Southern US... does that mean that because those critical 'changes' of heart/doctrine of the 'church' were wrong?

of course all things must be tested against scripture... "new" things (if you could call women ministering to men "new") especially should be tested, ...but i would be very worried about any person 'church' etc that thinks they have it "ALL" worked out and do not need to continue to seek God for revelation and ask Holy Spirit to lead us forward as the people of God... let us see time as the opportunity to grow in our faith and it's practical expression, not as something that means we must have 'arrived' at 'all truth' by a certain time.

Scott McKnight has an interesting testimonial on his blog "Jesus Creed" from Nov 20th 2006 by respected biblical scholar Stan Gundry who was a staunch complementarian and has, after having courage to really examine the traditions he had been taught since he was a baby, moved to the biblical egalitarian camp. I mention this because the last phrase or two of his testimony really struck me...
"The defenders of slavery within the churches all claimed the Bible as their starting point and all developed their defense by appealing to scripture in much the fashion I have summarized above. With one voice southern churchmen defending slavery charged that to reject slavery as sinful was to reject the Word of God......
I had heard about this line of reasoning before, but to actually read it for myself was an eye-opening experience. I was appalled and embarrassed that such an evil practice had been defended in the name of God and under the guise of biblical authority. How could churchmen and leading theologians have been so foolish and blind? ...
Someday Christians will be as embarrassed by the church’s biblical defense of patriarchal hierarchicalism as it is now of the nineteenth century biblical defenses of slavery." http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1700

Move us forward into truth Lord and help us all be humble and gentle with each other cos change hurts!

In Christ,

Kerryn

kerryn said...

sorry - correction to my typo/ ommission of a few words above due to working with kids on my lap!

"... does that mean that because those critical 'changes' of heart/doctrine of the 'church' took so 'long' that they were wrong?"

k

Anonymous said...

I wondered how long it would be before someone compared women in ministry to slavery. That is a worn-out argument that is demeaning to the horrors of slavery.
The issue is not about women ministering to, around, beside men. The issue is about women having spiritual authority over men and forsaking their God-given roles.

believer333 said...

Beth wrote:
“your quest for affirmation is more about female power than adherence to Scripture.
“Yet, Baptist Women in Ministry, an egalitarian organization that affirms many of the principles laid out here by you, found that in 2005, no more than 5.5% of the 1,854 churches affiliated with CBF were led by a woman. …….. Could it be because although there’s a desire to be considered inclusive and open, in their hearts there’s an affirmation that it is out of God’s order for a woman to pastor a man?”

Beth, serving God is not about power. Everything being discussed here is about proper interpretation of Scripture. It’s not about being anything except what God wants individuals to be. God does not call in percentages. God calls individuals. Whether a few women or a lot of women answer the call really means nothing.

If you wish to effectively participate in the discussion, I suggest that you lay out your Scriptural basis for there being an hierarchical order to the sexes. Where did it begin. Why was it instituted. What is it’s scope.

believer333 said...

Hello Kerryn,

Stan Gundry quote: “"The defenders of slavery within the churches all claimed the Bible as their starting point and all developed their defense by appealing to scripture in much the fashion I have summarized above. With one voice southern churchmen defending slavery charged that to reject slavery as sinful was to reject the Word of God......”

I have skimmed through a couple books about the war on slavery. It is indeed astonishing that in many ways the war on women ministers is identical. It is an attestation to the success of helicopter theology. Verses are lifted out of Scripture without their qualifying contextual connections and reformed into whatever bent is wanted.

“Someday Christians will be as embarrassed by the church’s biblical defense of patriarchal hierarchicalism as it is now of the nineteenth century biblical defenses of slavery."”

Yes, I believe so. Yet, there will always be those who enjoy the benefits of slavery and will defend it as there will always be those who enjoy the benefits of preferential hierarchalism and will defend it.

Anonymous said...

As the CBMW guy told Cheryl ... we will simply have to agree to disagree. We are each convinced that God has revealed to us the truth of His Word and that God has spoken clearly regarding the roles of men and women.

Cheryl Schatz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cheryl Schatz said...

I think agreeing to disagree is a godly thing. It allows one to keep the peace with a brother or sister in Christ and not have division. The problem with “agreeing to disagree” with the women’s issue is that the hierarchical view and those who strongly hold to it charges women who teach the bible to men with sin. I personally don’t believe that people can agree to disagree over sin.

Let’s look at a biblical example. Paul wrote about a man who was living with his father’s wife. That was clearly a sin and Paul identified it as such. Let’s imagine Paul instructing the Corinthians: “You are tolerating an adulterer in your midst, one who is living with his mother (or step mother) and I think you should allow him to stay in fellowship because we can all just agree to disagree about his sin.”

As long as a Christian isn’t charging the other with sin, agreeing to disagree is a wonderful act of love towards a fellow brother or sister in Christ. However when one is charging the other with sin, is agreeing to disagree a viable option? If so, I sure would like to see some scriptural proof for that because I have searched myself in scripture and to this point I have not found such an option. That is why I am like a broken record asking for scriptural proof that 1 Timothy 1 & 2 in context is instructing the stopping of godly biblical teaching. It is obvious to me that false teachers, deception and false teaching are the subject of the prohibition. 1 Timothy 2:12 is surrounded by verses about deception including the deception of the first woman. If I or anyone is going to be charged with sin for teaching correct bible doctrine, the onus is on the one making the charge that godly teaching by a woman is a sin depending on who she is teaching. Please show this from the context. I would like to ask you to exegete the two chapters to show me how you can get this meaning.

The important thing is that we are not to judge unfairly and charging someone with sin is a serious matter. Charging someone with sin cannot be in the “agree to disagree” category.

Cheryl Schatz said...

By the way, I think I said exactly the same thing to CBMW when they told me that we should just agree to disagree. I brought the sin matter to their attention and they have not responded back. They are still charging women with sin and are now making this an issue of the gospel. Women, they say, are not necessarily lost who teach the bible to men. How is it that they are not necessarily lost? They are not necessarily lost if they repent and believe the complementarian gospel. Should we be making this an issue of sin and the gospel? This is not right as the complementarian view has now become extremely divisive.

For anyone wanting to hear the quotes from the latest CBMW conference, I have clips listed on my blog at
http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2007/03/24/should-cbmw-fight-egalitarians/

In case the link doesn’t come through all the way, go to strivetoenter.com/wim and scroll down to the blog entry “Should CMBW fight egalitarians?” It is my entry on March 24, 2007.

I hope this helps many to see the seriousness of the charges and that CBMW and those who teach this separation of believers to be called to account for what they teach. We cannot just attach our view of the women’s issue to the gospel and say that the opposition is not believing the gospel if they don’t believe our view. I don’t do that, and I call on complementarians to stop supporting this unbiblical view. We need to love one another as Jesus instructed us.

Anonymous said...

Cheryl – I am a 33 year old single woman. I have sought the Lord to give me His perspective on what my role as a woman is. I have studied Scripture. I have studied various commentaries. I have sought the counsel of godly older women and men. I have taken seminary classes devoted to a biblical understanding of gender. All of these have led me to the conviction that the “complementarian” position is the most Scriptural.
Based on your earlier comments, those who hold to the complementarian position do so out of personal sinful gain or fear of losing their position. What sinful gain do you feel I have received? What position am I, a single woman, in danger of losing?
As for charging someone with sin – you have intimated that those whom you perceive hold women back are in sin. Let’s not start using that “charging others with sin” to your own advantage now that the conversation is ending without you convincing others of your position.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Beth,

I do not know your motives. That would have to come from you yourself and I am not concerned about that.

As far as my role from scripture, that is clear. I am to be like Jesus. I am to follow Jesus and do what he did. Is there any other higher role than that for a Christian?

I am not charging you with sin. I am not compelled to do that by the scriptures so I never make this a judgment call on my part. What I am doing is bringing to people’s attention to the fact that we must not judge unfairly. We can discuss and debate and all these things are very, very good things. Iron sharpens iron and we can cause each other to search in scripture and make sure that what we believe is scriptural. However when we charge women with sin as the hierarchical view does, then we must ask those who are doing the charging to give an account for that sin. Give me an exegesis of the passage in 1 Timothy 1 & 2 in context that will prove that Paul is stopping godly Christian teaching instead of just stopping false teaching. Failing to prove their view in the passage in context is not an option for those who charge me and other women with sin. It is an imperative because to charge someone with sin when scripture says nothing of the sort, is an extremely serious thing to contemplate.

Go ahead and disagree with women who love God’s word and teach it to whomever God gives them to teach, but share your point of view with love and compassion. However if you are going to charge women with sin, then you must do your homework and be willing to be challenged to prove your point.

Anonymous said...

Cheryl - I do feel compassion and love for you. We all have areas in which God is working, refining us to see more clearly His truth and gain His right perspective.
Sharing an opposing view, however, is not evidence of a judgmental sinful heart. I will not offer an exegesis on Scripture - that has been done here and rejected by you. There are a multitude of resources that speak far more eloquently than I could ever do. Some to check on are
Sharon James - God's Design for Women; Mary Kassian - Women Creation and the Fall; Beth Impson - Called to Womanhood.

Cheryl Schatz said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Cheryl Schatz said...

Beth,

Thank you for sharing your love. That was very kind of you and I appreciate it. I am glad also that you see that my sharing an opposing view is not an evidence of a judgmental sinful heart.

The request, though, that I gave you about giving an exegesis of 1 Timothy 1 & 2 asking to have it shown that Paul was stopping godly teaching has not been answered yet. Perhaps you have read something that I have not. Where was an exegesis given of these two chapters? Where was it shown that the passage is talking about godly teaching and not error? I sure would love to see that. I have asked many this same thing including CBMW and none yet has even tried to give an answer.

I do not doubt that you could speak eloquently as one who loves Jesus and loves his word. The way I see it is that when God gives you his spirit, he gives you the ability to do what you may not think you can. I would like you to work on your answer even if you never post it here. Look carefully through 1 Timothy chapters one and two. Pay close attention to each word. What is Paul saying? What was his purpose? What was his concern? Why didn’t he mention the stopping of women teaching in chapter one? By looking again at chapters 1 & 2 in an effort to prove that Paul was stopping godly teaching, you may see something that you have never considered before.

I have read more complementarian material, more books, more journals and more articles than anyone I know of. I have been diligent to look at both sides of the argument in a fair way. I would like to ask which books you have read from the egalitarian side? Have you ever purchased any books from the egalitarian side and researched the other side giving it fair attention as well? There are several very good authors who present the egalitarian position in a loving, respectful way without any charge of sin towards complementarians. This is God’s way. Love and respect are key to these kinds of discussions. One day we will all be together in heaven and we should work towards having no regrets when we meet in person. Jesus lives in each one of us and Jesus longs for his church to be united in love.

I appreciated your last post. It was very gentle.

Anonymous said...

Cheryl - I pray that I will never turn away from the Lord has taught.
You seem to imply that if I would just study more, I would come around to what you perceive to be the truth.
Cheryl - may God's grace fill your life.
Pax.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Hi Beth,

Thanks for your blessings of God’s grace. I sure can use it as I make a big ministry and household move. It is stressful to say the least.

Please allow me to clarify so that we both understand. What I was implying is that if you read the context carefully, you will see what kind of teaching that Paul was forbidding. I have found not one word, not one verse that even suggested that Paul was forbidding godly teaching. If you find otherwise, please do enlighten me so that we can all learn. Until someone shows me otherwise, I must go with what the text says and the text only forbids the teaching of error.

Blessings!
Cheryl

Anonymous said...

Cheryl,

I don't have much time to respond or else I would have all ready. I have an important test coming up.

My friend Frank has started a response to Zens here. Which is a very good start.

I don't see where you've proven that God requires the two or more witnesses to establish a universal and binding teaching. I don't believe the commentaries you've quoted either make your point as they don't say as much.

Anyways, I wish I had more time, but I don't right now. The CFP is alot to study for.

Blessings,
Mark

Mark said...

Ps. I'd also like to ask Sam Storms about your hermeneutic as he's spoken and written on Biblical interpretation. He should have good insight and seems well respected by the blog readers here.

BTW, do the folks at the Better Bibles blog agree with your two or more witnesses hypothesis?

Thanks,
Mark

Cheryl Schatz said...

Dear Mark,

Watching the blog remarks here and trying to keep up with my own blog is about all I am capable of right now until our renovations are complete and our home sells. I am sure that if your friend has a response to my claims that he will post it here.

As far as the Better Bibles blog, I have been in contact with one of the translators after he purchased my DVD. He liked it and thought it was well done and well documented. Another one of the translators wanted to know my source for my exegesis on Genesis chapter 2 that I link to 1 Timothy 2. I gave him the source from the book Biblical Hebrew and Discourse Linguistics which interestingly enough he had this on his own book shelf. He checked my references and was satisfied that I had correctly represented the Hebrew grammar.

I have also noticed from the OT that God has given many, many warnings about sin to the Israelites. He consistently sent them prophets to warn them to turn away from sin. Now think how different this is from the charge that women are sinning if they teach correct biblical doctrine to men. The context of 1 Timothy 1 & 2 is about false teachers, deception and false doctrine. At the beginning of the epistle Paul reminds Timothy that he was left in Ephesus to stop the false teachers and to stop the false doctrine. It would be logical then to assume that in the midst of the prohibition to stop deception and just before he reminds Timothy about the first deception in the garden, Paul’s prohibition is not about true teaching but about the false.

If it is not all about false teaching, but about stopping true teaching then God made a mistake:

1. He should have announced that it was a sin for all godly women to teach correct biblical doctrine to men in a passage that wasn’t all about the stopping of false teaching.

2. He should have listed this “sin” in one of the multiple listings of sins in the New Testament.

3. He should have confirmed this sin by repeating it as he consistently confirmed sin in the OT and throughout the NT.

4. He appears to be biased against women since he never listed the reversal as a sin. In other words, he never said that men who listen to women teach correct biblical doctrine are equally sinning against God. Why would he make it a sin for a woman and not make it an equal sin for a man?

5. God has shown compassion on people by warning them over and over again about sin that would send them to hell if not repented of. If this is a sin that must be repented of as CBMW has clearly shown in that they have tied it to the gospel, then why has God not shown compassion on women by clearly warning them over and over again? Why would he leave the charge of sin in only one verse and that one verse surrounded with the warning about false doctrine? Why would God refuse to repeat the warning about this “sin” and then require that women discriminate against men by kicking out all of the men who want to attend her bible studies?

There is much to think about. God warns and warns and warns about sin. It is an important theme in the Bible. However this one “sin” is never warned about again. Can you explain that?

Anonymous said...

Cheryl,

Act 28:27 ..... the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

May the Lord richly bless you for your diligent love of the truth.

believer333 said...

“1. He should have announced that it was a sin for all godly women 10to teach correct biblical doctrine to men in a passage that wasn’t all about the stopping of false teaching.””

Yes. Proper exegesis acknowledges that the topic matter does not change for one sentence and then continue on the original topic. It’s a matter of context. We interpret words according to their contextual link with the other words in the full body of the message. We do not helicopter pieces of sentences out of the contextual body and attach a different understanding to them.

“2. He should have listed this “sin” in one of the multiple listings of sins in the New Testament.”

Because this “sin” is supposed to have been established on the foundation of Adam and Eve’s creation, then realistically it should have been soundly explained by Moses, when he laid out the laws of the first covenant. For it NOT to have been done is extremely revealing. Why would a sin established upon the sins of the first humans never be mentioned for 4000 years, and then only be mentioned VERY briefly once.

“3. He should have confirmed this sin by repeating it as he consistently confirmed sin in the OT and throughout the NT.”

I so agree with this. How could we think God wouldn't repeat, define and explain sin clearly to us. AND God would also explain clearly what the proper actions would be. We wouldn't have to helicopter a piece of a sentence from one epistle with a piece of a sentence from another epistle and another to "figure" it out.

“4. He appears to be biased against women since he never listed the reversal as a sin. In other words, he never said that men who listen to women teach correct biblical doctrine are equally sinning against God. Why would he make it a sin for a woman and not make it an equal sin for a man.”

Yes. Sin is a wrong action, word or deed. It is not biased. It does not prefer a gender. Sinful deeds are sin for everyone. Example: it is sin for anyone of any social status, race or gender to lie, steal, abuse, or deliberately knowingly teach incorrect Biblical doctrine. And for those who knowingly believe wrong Biblical doctrine, untruths, they will reap the results. But what bad result is there from believing and applying truth? What bad results are there from applying truth Biblical doctrines?

“5. God has shown compassion on people by warning them over and over again about sin that would send them to hell if not repented of. If this is a sin that must be repented of as CBMW has clearly shown in that they have tied it to the gospel, then why has God not shown compassion on women by clearly warning them over and over again?”

Exactly. God does not play guessing games with us. When it comes to sin God does NOT WANT us to go there. He loves us and cares for us enough that He makes great efforts to explain exactly what sin is and what we are to do to avoid it.

Cheryl Schatz said...

Victorious,

Thank you so much for your blessing and bringing that scripture to the forefront. How appropriate.

Believer333,

Thank you for your additional thoughts. It was so much appreciated.

God has allowed us to see his character by his repeated warnings against sin. You are so right in that he does not play guessing games because sin separates us from him. He identifies sin for the purpose of exposing it and he urges us with repeat warnings to repent and to turn away from all sin. When something is identified by believers as a sin but it is never repeated in scripture and God never urges us to turn from the “sin” as he has repeatedly identified and urged us to repent from every other sin, then we can be sure that the “sin” has been misidentified. The time has come to turn away from this false understanding and with hearts of love for the truth and for our sisters in Christ, to encourage them to teach the truth in season and out of season, to men and to women. God will get the glory as he always does when truth is lifted up and the tradition of men is rejected.

Blessings to you both!
Cheryl

Anonymous said...

Wow. I am not sure which was more discouraging...the article or the comments.

Dr. Russell Moore is right, the egalitarians are winning in our churches.

believer333 said...

Well, Steven, I certainly hope that more churches are realizing the error of patriarchal hierarchal belief systems in the church and in secular cultures. I've seen so many lives wounded, damaged, and destroyed by perpetuators of male domination.

It's time we started to work together for Christ in true respectful and complementary relationships.

Anonymous said...

I have said this elsewhere, but on much of this debate you could replace the word WOMAN with the word NEGRO and you would have the same debate that took place 50 - 60 years ago in the SBC on whether or not African Americans could teach whites.

Sigh.

At least you guys aren't debating whether or not women have souls.

Dr. James Willingham said...

Wow! Hats off to Jon Zens. this is the best of his many writings that I have ever read. It goes to the heart of the issues involved in women and their service to our Lord Jesus Christ. Mr. Zens reminds us that there is a two-sidedness to biblical teachings designed to make God's people attractive representatives of the Gospel, balanced, flexible, creative, constant, and magnetic.

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