I am amazed that in the most public venue possible, the Associated Press, Jerry Sutton made two unbelievable statements that every alert and wise Southern Baptist should not let go unchallenged. Tim Whitmire, the AP reporter who interviewed Jerry, is a professional, and I'm sure the quotes are accurate, since I know Tim's style, having answered questions he sent to me this afternoon via email for an article he is writing this weekend.
Statement #1 from Jerry Sutton's AP Interview
{Begin Quote} " . . . a lot of people are concerned that he (Frank Page) really hasn't identified himself as a strong conservative over the years," Sutton said. "There's a suspicion and a concern there." {End Quote}
Unbelievable. It reminds me of the time I was refereeing a basketball game and saw a horrible foul and thought to myself "Somebody ought to call a foul!" when I realized I was the referee and I needed to call it myself.
I'm not a Southern Baptist referree, but if I were, I would throw a bright red flag and assess a fifteen yard penalty for unchristianlike conduct.
Suspicion? Of what? Liberalism?
Concern? Over what? __________ (Fill in the blank).
If you read my blog you will notice the theme from the beginning (December 2005) is that we must get to the place where Southern Baptists quit calling fellow evangelical conservatives -- who happen to disagree with our methodology or ideology -- "liberal."
Is this foul against Dr. Frank Page deliberate or unintentional? We might need to ask a Judge.
Statement #2 from Jerry Sutton's AP Interview
In answering a question about dissent Sutton said,
{Begin Quote} "Is this dissent meant to bring a correction or is this dissent meant to stir up trouble?" he said, adding he worries the confidentiality of trustees is violated when statements made in closed meetings are repeated on the Internet.
"There are some things that trustees need to keep confidential when they're working through issues," he said. {End Quote}
Jerry, what in the world do you mean? Do you know for yourself that statements made in confidential meetings are put on the internet?
Where? How? When? What?
No need to turn off the microphone. Just answer the questions.
Show the statements made in closed meetings that are repeated on the internet. I think you will find you can't prove your statements.
Confidentiality has not been breached.
Southern Baptists have a right to know what is going at their Boards and agencies. We all better get used to more openness because the SBC demands it.
Well, I couldn't go into Bible study tonight as we look at the prophet Jeremiah without challenging the public statements of Dr. Sutton. I would encourage you to read up on all the issues for yourself.
The convention needs informed messengers.
(UPDATE THURSDAY: It seems that some are saying the Dr. Sutton was only saying Dr. Page was not a "strong" conservative but a conservative none the less. Then please answer these two questions. (1). What, according to Sutton, is there to suspicion about Frank Page? (Notice how the word suspicion is used in the Brainy Dictionary under the definition of character: Possessing a moral quality; the principles and motives that control the life; as, a man of character; his character saves him from suspicion. ). (2). What, according to Sutton, is there to be concerned about in Frank Page? If Frank were saying Page were a conservative there would be no need for suspicion or concern).
In His Grace,
Wade Burleson
42 comments:
Wade,
Thank the Lord there is someone like you who is fearless of the powers that be, conservative in your theology, and articulate in your arguments.
This is why you are feared.
Those in charge can't control you, intimidate you, or silence you.
You are my hero!
Pastor Steve
Wade:
Many, many years ago, Johnny Carson had a show in which George Gobel, George Burns and Dean Martin were all guests. It may have been New Year's Eve.
Burns and Martin were going back and forth bigtime, while Gobel was mostly silent. Finally, in a slack moment, George Gobel said the following (with his droll look, at the camera):
"Did you ever get the feeling that the world was a tuxedo, and you were a pair of BROWN SHOES?"
If it weren't for the blogs, I'd ask if you ever felt like that, in reference to the SBC & the IMB.
If you ever do, you aren't. I know that for two reasons. The blogs & the Bible.
No wonder the establishment isn't happy with the ready spread of information formerly known only to the chosen.
Hallelujah! It gets more and more interesting.
Hang in there. See you next week.
Wade
WOuld you also call a foul on some bloggers who have accused Dr. Patterson of nepotism and gross, unchecked political power, and under radar leadership and influence... among many other things?
JM
Matt,
You are right.
Would you be so kind as to differentiate between "strong" conservative and "moderate?"
Jack,
It seems to me anything is foul unless there is evidence provided. I'm not sure to which blog you refer, but if there is no evidence, yes, it would be foul.
That is sad. If you don't agree with someone, just call them a liberal!
Wade, I have had much sympathy with your plight at the IMB. But you are guilty of misstating the position of Dr. Jerry Sutton. This brother is not calling Frank Page a liberal and a moderate. Sutton is rightly pointing out that Page has no record of support for the conservative resurgence. Sutton only mildly challenged Page.
You owe Jerry Sutton an apology.
There's nothing quite like initiating unsuported suspicion about someone. Actually, he may have done Page a favor. This means he has not identified himself with the reigning elite, which only makes me like him more.
Wade said: "Anything is foul unless there is evidence provided..."
Not to belabor the point, but by making a public charge with absolutely no evidence provided (as you did in yesterday's blog entry, and with a sweeping generalized claim that you've been a "target" of "CBF hatred") are you not doing the same thing?
By doing so, you're tossing around a collective indictment of such giants as Richard Jackson, Paul Powell, Keith Parks,
Frank Pollard, and others who've actively participated in CBF or "moderate" Baptist life. These individuals have been a source of blessing and personal encouragmento me and to many others, as we all strive to "be the presence of Christ on this earth."
So now the implication is if you vote for Page you're a moderate?
Saying that Page is not a strong conservative (thus implying he's moderate) is OK? There is proof of this?
The inner circle will do and say anything they can to discredit those outside the circle.
On a side note: make sure you really do have a place to stay during the convention. Seems that SBC housing has cancelled reservations made back in February...cancelled them in May and didn't even bother to tell my parents! They found out because my dad felt prompted in his spirit to call about the reservations.
So what is this about? Cancel reservations for those who aren't a "known" entity? Make sure someone who will vote on the side of the "inner circle" has a room?
This is ridiculous!
I'm praying for all who will be at the convention!
Matt B,
I'm very curious ... to which moderates are you referring?
Speaking of insinuations, that's quite an insinuation you make. Please, tell us who these moderates are. If you know something I don’t, you owe it to us all to enlighten us. Until then, a label + a generalization = an insinuation, in my book.
Mr. Killian,
Sorry. If anything, Dr. Sutton owes Dr. Page an apology, but I didn't even ask that. I simply voiced my objections to his statements, and whether or not Sutton perceives it that way to be seen, and whatever he feels needs to be done is up to him.
I don't apologize just because people don't like what I have said. I apologize if what I have said is wrong. Dr. Sutton question Dr. Page's conservatism.
He is proving the point I have been making on this blog for six months.
Abaptiste,
I agree. That is why labels should be avoided.
Hiram,
Sorry. Only comments pertinent to this post. A few of your thoughts were, most were not.
Terms that often seem meaningless:
- Conservative
- Moderate
- Strong conservative
These labels are useful for labels and sound bites, but they seem primarily used to say "You are (or are not) one of us."
The truth is in the details.
Matt B.
That's silly. There have been for years policies against missionaries publicly speaking in tongues publicly and against missionaries drinking alchohol.
You are arguing straw men. You would be penalized and debate and lose.
The issue is a "private" prayer language. Further everything else you mention in your post to define "conservative" is not BIBLICAL but cultural.
Do you not see you are proving my point? Southern Baptists better start getting our doctrine from Scripture and not from culture.
Wade,
"suspicion" - what a wonderful word. It gives plenty of wiggle room like, "Not that I'm saying it but ..." That way he can say Dr. Page isn't really a conservative without ever having to say it. The message gets out and Dr. Sutton doesn't have to take the blame.
But when Wade points it out, he can get the blame for reading things into his words.
"Tim Whitmire, the AP reporter who interviewed Jerry, is a professional, and I'm sure the quotes are accurate, since I know Tim's style..."
He may be a professional, but he surely is not infallible. Did you confirm these quotes with Whitmire and Sutton before writing this entry?
Wade,
I never thought the day would come when I would be considered a "moderate." By my definition I'm not, but By Matt's definition I am.
Matt Said:
"On the other hand, your views about speaking in tongues, drinking alcoholic beverages, and even alien immersion are at odds with what most Southern Baptists have traditionally believed to be Biblically conservative."
The problem with Matt's definition is that it is based on tradition, not the Bible. Therefore, I am a strong conservative.
Patrick Mead
Ms. Smith,
Did not have to confirm because the reporter emailed me asking me for Frank Page's phone number, wanting a response to the very quote I have blogged about, believing it a statement that cast Frank into a negative light, and though Frank might not be surprised by it, the reporter wanted to give Frank an opportunity to respond. So, yes, Ms. Smith, it is confirmed.
Wade,
One more thought. I thought that if you affirmed the BF&M 2000 you were a strong conservative! I thought we got rid of the moderates with the BF&M 2000! Then how in the world did I end up a moderate?
Thanks for the fight!
Patrick Mead
This is all interesting information but at the end of the day how many people know anything substantial about the candidates, who as I understand it, are not officially nominated until the convention. This means that in the end people will vote by name recognition and probably not out of any firm understanding of where each person stands with regards to Theology and to Methodology.
I know this whole process will not change this year and I also realize we do not want people running around campaigning for the position of president but there has to be a better answer than show up and vote for the name you recognize. This is the first year in the 12 years I have been a SBCer that I have known much about the candidates myself other than name and I attribute this to the internet/blogosphere. The internet is far from perfect but information, both good and bad, is available and it is this information that is making people think more about what is going on. We, however, need to make sure that it is not any one persons blog or web site that drives our decision but God’s Word, prayer and more prayer. The information by itself is just words but with prayer we can seek out God’s man.
While I can not go to the Convention I am praying that real substance is dealt with as much as it can in so short a time and that people leave knowing that change has to come. We can not simply keep propping up numbers and claiming largeness as out mantra but instead we would seek after a mantle of Godliness. Would it not be great if the when the SBC was mentioned it would be in reference to spirituality and not numbers or some other issues? There may issues ahead but when the smoke (and mirrors) clear I would hope we would be transformed from a denomination of programs to one of mission.
How conservative is Frank Page? Well, in my mind he is as conservative as Jimmy Draper, Bobby Welch, L. Russ Bush, Danny Akin, and David Dockery. When he pastored at Warren Baptist in Augusta, GA, it was and is a strong, conservative church. The man who followed him is David Fleming, who came from First Baptist Daytona, and who was tapped to succeed Bobby Welch. So, I would think that the church connection would show how conservative he is. Also, on my bookshelf is a commentary on Jonah from the New American Commentary series that appeared in the late 80's. It was the SBC and Lifeway's attempt at conservative scholarship, and Frank Page was invited to contribute Jonah. Who is he linked with in this project? Draper, Dockery, Akin, etc.
Jerry Sutton has no basis to question how conservative Page is. It is a weak attempt to split the vote, and cast doubts, and I read it as Sutton questioning the character of Page. All the more reason I'm voting for Frank.
I'm thinking about wearing a button at the convention that says, "Page Me."
Why are "labels" so wrong. When I go to the grocery store I am really glad for labels. Labels identify don't they? I want to know if a person is a liberal, fundamentalist, calvinist, moderate (whatever that is), or something else. Pastor Sutton is my Pastor, and yes we need revival at Two Rivers, and so does the SBC, no question about it. I hope it begins in Greensboro.
ALL,
Terms that often seem meaningless:
- Conservative
- Moderate
- Strong conservative
Which term would you use to describe JESUS.
A Brother in CHRIST
I would vote for Dr. Page as he is the furthest away the Present Mindset.
I would vote for Dr. Page as he is the furthest away the Present Mindset.
Not only do we all define broad tag words and stereotypes like conservative or liberal very differently, but we also sound like secular politicians when we throw them around. One could even go so far as to say that throwing around such terms, whether your own meaning is innocent enough or not, with the knowledge that the hearers will interpret such words a certain way, it tantamount to lying, gossiping, slandering, etc. It truly is sad. What would be relevant is to say, factually, what an individual's self-reported stance on a given issue is (without a label) or to state the facts of CP giving, etc. Regardless, it seems sad that we mirror our society in the selection of leadership within a Christian organization.
W.
You used the nomenclature " . . . Closet Liberal?" in the title of your blog describing Frank Page.
You are naive if you think people can't see through your purpose in writing that post.
Tad, my point exactly... even thought i typed it horribly. People use labels for their own selfish purposes... just like secular politics.
alien immersion
The operative definition of that concept on this blog is accepting immersions from churches that do not adhere to the security of the believer but are otherwise credobaptist. Considering that John Gano did this, and many of the early 18th century Particulars did this, and that most of the SBC does this, and that most who do not are located in Arkansas, KY, and TX, states with links to those affirming successionism, it is most certainly a cultural, not a biblical norm. It is certainly not the practice of the majority of the Convention at this time.
If you are going to argue otherwise, it is incumbent upon you to produce the evidence and not simply assert it without argument.
Hey, W.
I thought Wade’s reply to your accusation of being falsely accused of calling Page a liberal was right on target. By the way, you whine just like Brad.
Wade,
Bobby Welch stated in the Baptist Press on June 6: On BAPTISM he said, “We live by the board. They make the rules and that’s the way it works…we elect those trustees to be trusted people.”
Welch said he believes the IBM’s trustees should work to resolve their difficulties and not bring these issues to the convention floor of the SBC annual meeting in Greensboro.
“The convention is not equipped, in my view, in a general assembly, to deal with all these circumstances. That’s why we have the trusteeship,” Welch emphasized.
“It is a disservice to the convention, because the convention is not best equipped to deal with these things as a whole.” “…That is tantamount to sending a man with a splinter in his eye to ask the 1,000 people to get it out all at the same time. You are going to end up losing your whole eye with good-intentioned people trying to help you.”
On the other hand, messengers to the annual meeting can bring any issue before the convention, Welch said. If, however, messengers must guide trustees ‘from the floor of the convention,’ that defeats the purpose of electing responsible trustees except in “EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES,” he concluded.
Wade, Welch did not accidentally bring this up under “baptism.” He knows the friction on the subject and has announced his decision. He knows your motion for a committee does not ask a thousand people to operate on an eye, but that’s his politics.
He nails his decision down with, “If, however, messengers must guide trustees ‘from the floor of the convention’, that defeats the purpose of electing responsible trustees…”
Wade, I’m not saying to drop your motion…it’s worth a try, but have another motion that will have “EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES.”
What has the IMB done that is extraordinary? Welch was wise in avoiding private prayer language of speaking in tongues. He could handle baptism but not tongues.
Just imagine asking a person who the Holy Spirit gave a private language, to agree that the gift was NOT from God. That would be asking him to “insult and outrage the Holy Spirit.” (Hebrews 10:29)
Matthew 12:32, Mark 3:28, Luke 12:10, “Whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come.”
For the IMB to decree Paul’s private prayer language is NOT Baptist, is the same as saying it is not from God. That is contributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the works of the devil. That is speaking against the Holy Spirit.
How EXTRAORDINARY can you get?
The BFM2000 changed “individual priesthood” to “priesthood of believers.” That means you go along with whatever the majority says. My priesthood does not “live by the board”; it does not live by “policy”; it lives as the Holy Spirit directs me, and I pray all Baptists would also.
Rex Ray
I just liked the title. I often wonder why people ain't usin' perfectly good Oklahoma words a tad more often.
Dan,
Say the title out loud.
You'll catch the pun when you do.
Look, Lets face it. Bottom line for the conservatives is: Will Frank Page be very careful to appoint people who are conservatives to key positions of leadership. Their fear is that "the CBF crowd" will find a way back to important positions of leadership. Period. THAT is the issue! Tad reported about this on his blog http://pastortad.blogspot.com/2006/05/ronnie-floyd-and-his-understanding-of.html
For the establishment; it's all about appointments. They don't really care about his theology; they only care about who he will appoint. Read tads blog; it's very insightful on this.
When Sutton says Page “hasn’t identified himself as a strong conservative;” read “we don’t know if he will be careful not to appoint CBF sympathizers. Page is in a catch 22. If he does come out and say he will broaden the tent to include CBF folks, he will alienate many conservatives who won’t feel comfortable with that. If he says he won’t appoint CBF folks; the “moderate” support that everyone is talking about will leave him. He must have significant support from disgruntled non-CBF conservatives AND from CBF folks alike. So we are left to guess about the “strength” of his conservatism. Enter Judge Pressler with a “safer” (read tad’s blog) appointment that is more electable than Floyd. Here we are. See you in Greensboro.
Joy,
Cliff
Wade,
As others have stated Sutton did not say that he believes Page to be a Liberal, he simply stated that others called him with concern regarding how conservative Frank really is. I must say that I was greatly discomforted when I heard about Frank Page's support of Dilday when he was at Gambrell Street. I believe that this has raised "suspicion" in many conservative Southern Baptists.
Stumbled across all this in a search. For all those pastors who posted: how do you guys, Wade included, have time to devote yourselves to the ministry of the Word and prayer while spending what must be hours blogging and posting comments?
Do your church members have any idea?
I blog, but it is for the sole purpose of encouraging my flock.
Darn it! I just realized that by posting this I'm guilty of that which I've accused you. Oh, well. God bless you all, my brothers.
What is a private prayer language and where is it taught in the Bible? There is much teaching in the Bible on prayer, but never any instruction concerning a private prayer language. If it's not taught in the Bible then it should be avoided and those who oppose it should not be called fundamentalists (speaking of pinning lables on folks).
To Pastor Brad,
You make a good point on the time it takes to read and write blogs. I believe that effort is well worth it as it touches many lives—more than just one church. In fact, if church members read the blogs, pastors would hear a lot more a-men’s.
By the way, your word “darn” is the only slang I remember on Wade’s blog. I was taught that slang words were modern ways of using words they replace such as ‘dam.’ Our youth director preached once a month and it was a while before he learned to stop using such words as they made the members cringe. It has something to do with Jesus saying let your yes be yes and your no be no.
Wade, the new format or whatever leaves off some words on the right side of the comments when I try to print them.
I’ve had three computers and they all do the same thing. I have to copy paste your words in order to print, and now the comments. Can anyone tell me what I could do to correct my problem, or do you have the same problem too?
Rex Ray
Dear Craig,
I don’t have “a private prayer language,’ but I believe those who do would say that a “private prayer language” is a gift of the Spirit, not a command. We are to “pray in the Spirit,” but I hardly agree that Paul is speaking of a “private prayer language.” Those who have this gift will argue from 1 Corinthians 14 and some Romans 8.
I often wonder how much is truly an experience of the Spirit or something psychological. I have come to the conclusion whether it is truly a spiritual experience or psychological, if it draws them closer to Christ, is centered on Christ, and glorifies Christ, then I don’t have a problem with it.
How detrimental is a “private prayer language” to the cause of Christ? I would say that a crusade to stop it is worse than allowing believers in their prayer closet to have a “private prayer language.”
Craig, I believe the fundamentals and affirm the Baptist Faith and Message 2000, but I am not into the spirit of fundamentalism that says we all have to have the same interpretations to cooperate together for the glory of Christ. The BF&M 2000 allows a rich diversity of interpretations and experiences to work together to further the kingdom of Christ.
For Christ’s Glory
Patrick Mead
REX,
The text size you are using can cause this. In internet explorer top use view and select text size to select what size you want. Or you need new glasses.
LOVE in CHRIST NAME
I used to be a member of Dr. Sutton's congregation. His intent is usually good. The basic problem is that his world, the SBC, is a very political organization. He has an agenda. His agenda, political views, and comments often times over-ride what everyday christians, Baptists and others view as in touch to the real world. It's unfortunate and these issues, along with others, have caused alot of turnover in his church over the years. Bottom line, he wants to be a "major player" (his words, not mine) in the SBC but I question whether he's really got what it takes to do that.
His comments are unfortunate.
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