The Centrality of Jesus Christ for Our Fellowship
This morning a group of about twenty five men met at the Grace Place here in Enid for our weekly discipleship meeting. The group is composed of businessmen, farmers, doctors, Air Force pilots, and other men from Emmanuel who meet for the purpose of discipleship and encouragement. This morning we studied the first two chapters of I Corinthians and discussed the causes of divisions within the body of Christ. Corinthian Christians were divided. Paul sought to unite them by reminding the church of the centrality of Jesus Christ and His death on the cross. The Apostle reminded his readers that when we lose sight of 'Christ and him crucified' we lose the basis of our fellowship, for it is the gospel, as applied to our hearts by the Spirit, that forms the basis of our spiritual power and unity.Almost two years ago I wrote a post entitled Conversion to Christ Over a Glass of Wine. That particular post recounts leading a Roman Catholic woman to faith in Christ, and restoring her marriage to her husband over a meal she had prepared in their home for my wife and me. Though it is my usual custom to practice abstinence and I have never even tasted 'beer,' the recounting of the story of how this woman was brought to the place of recognizing the power of Christ to transform her life has been the focus of a great deal of attention over the past few months in the blog world. Because of it, one blogger concerned with Baptist identity has written an entire series on the sin of drinking wine. Another blogger has posted an email that I am a 'beer-guzzler.' Much has been written about the post, but nobody critical of it has ever asked me about the woman and her husband.
Let me introduce you to them. If you have about five minutes, I would encourage you to watch this past Sunday's worship service at Emmanuel, April 13, 2008. After the first set of worship songs, Kyle and Carol Williams, whose marriage was transformed and lives turned around by the power of Jesus Christ over dinner in their home, share their testimony of involvement in small group ministry at Emmanuel. During their testimony time you will hear how they are currently working with a group of Christians in Poland to establish a Christian Radio Network that will reach every city of that country. They continue to be active leaders in our church, evangelistic in their outreach to Enid's business community, and now use their wealth to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ around the world.
Our discussion in small group discipleship reminded me of this couple. Kyle Williams was there. He shared that his understanding of the gospel caused him to only use his wine collection in moderation, always avoids drunkenness, and has been able to lead others to Christ through his testimony. Another man at the discipleship group, Brent Price, shared how he used his personal conviction of abstinence has been used by God to lead basketball teammates to Christ. The professional basketball players around whom Brent spent several years of his life had no concept of moderation, and as Brent would eat dinner with them, and abstain, his abstinence would cause conversation to turn to Christ. Brent was a wonderful example to his teammates of the power of the Spirit to control fleshly appetites. I know the difficulties Brent faced as a Christian in the professional basketball world because when I was with Brent in Houston in the mid 1990's, his Houston Rockets teammate, Charles Barkley, invited me to go with him to the strip club - and that was after he found out I was Brent's pastor.
Kyle and Brent take different approaches on how they relate to the world around them. Both Kyle and Brent are Southern Baptists and two of the finest Christian men I know. During our meeting this morning Kyle affirmed Brent in his convictions and Brent affirmed Kyle in his. To me, that is an example of Christian unity. The ability to rally around the essentials of the faith and give freedom to tertiary issues is the key to Christian unity. There are areas where Scripture does not give either a direct command or clear prohibition. We will be healthier as a convention when we base our Southern Baptist fellowship and cooperation on the centrality of Jesus Christ and him crucified and resist the urge to demand others conform to any other identity of our own making.
In His Grace,
Wade
posted by Wade Burleson | Tuesday, April 15, 2008
143 Comments:
Wade,
Why is it that you did not ask for a glass of water? Do you really feel that drinking that glass of wine helped the Lord save this couple? How sad.
You wrote... "those areas where Scripture does not give either a direct command or prohibition."
The bible says in 1 Timothy 3:3... and this is a list of the qualifications of a Pastor or Bishop... "Not given to wine..." Now you and Lucy, Lin, Chris and others can explain how that in the original language this prohibition does not apply to you.
I agree we should rally around Christ and not divide over non-essentials, we just disagree on the essentials. I might also point out that the Bible warns us to abstain from the very appearance of evil. Why did you not go to the stip club and try to win Charles Barkley to the Lord?
Sorry if this seems harsh, I am a rather straight forward and blunt person. As my pastor used to say... "Blunt speech is easily understood!" :)
Joe W.
Joe,
If you actually observe the sacred text itself, the phrase is 'much wine,' translated 'drunkenness' in the ESV and other translations.
Drunkenness is a sin, as it would be to lust after another woman, so I refrain from both.
Blessings,
Wade
Joe W,
I take it you didn't read the original post, or you wouldn't have asked a stupid question. And your misuse of scripture reveals a lot. I hope it's not indicative.
Sorry if this seems harsh, but blunt speech is easily understood.
Wade, delete this if you deem it appropriate to do so, but I had to say it.
I did watch the video and your point is well proven.
"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'
I think this post is pretty indicative of the problems that exist within the SBC. I can't for the life of me see how someone would have any problem with this post. It seems so straight forward and indicative of the liberty we have in Christ. On the other hand, guys like Joe W. seemed to be the polar opposite. They can't for the life of them see how Wade could have consumed wine, regardless of the outcome with this couple.
The overall implication is clear...either we see each other as brothers/sisters in Christ and acknowledge the liberty Christ gives us or we will continue to fight and be known more for what we're against rather than what we're for. Resolution is needed so we can move forward with reaching an increasing lost nation.
Grace,
Jeff
Wade,
Praise God for transformed lives. What you are describing is freedom we have in Christ that is called "Grace."
Since I joined a new church recently I have been stretched. I went to the U2 3D movie recently with some of our new church members. At dinner 2 of them drank a beer. I did not. Part of me was glad it was on the other side of town. (still struggling with legalism) But they asked me about my stance on alcohol and I told them I don't drink because as one of their pastors I don't want to be a stumbling block. They were OK with it and I'm fine with them.
Both of these men are very active in our church and have a heart for reaching the community. Man, I hate it when God shatters my box!
Blessings to you and your ministry!
My only comment to this thread is as follows:
"What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice."
~kmichael
Joe W:
It is not a sin to drink alcohol. You are trying to add to the Bible and that sir is a sin.
KMC -
That is your best comment ever in my opinion, not that you need my approval or ask for it. I just really appreciate your word there.
Wade,
I am so glad to hear Kyle's story. I was blessed by Kyle this past year and did not know anything about him or why he chose to bless my family with a gift. it is wonderful to hear a bit of his story here. Please tell him "hello" from this missionary and that we appreciate his love and prayers.
wtjeff, I agree with what you said and was shocked by the first comment. Praise God that He loves us even when we let our tongues run amuck.
Jeff,
You wrote... "Resolution is needed so we can move forward with reaching an increasing lost nation."
I know this is not what you meant, but here is a list of resolutions (75 to be exact) with the latest one coming in 2006 on the SBC and Alcohol... http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/AMResSearchAction.asp?SearchBy=Keyword&DisplayRows=10&frmData=alcohol
Liberty is not license...
Bob,
For misuse of scripture please see the first 6 parts of the Biblical Primer on Women in the Ministry.
Joe W.
"Why is it that you did not ask for a glass of water? Do you really feel that drinking that glass of wine helped the Lord save this couple? How sad."
Joe, think for a moment. This woman prepared a meal at her home, set the table and served wine that was probably very normal for them.
So Wade is going to embarass her by making it known he does not drink even ONE glass of wine because he is so holy. So, now she feels like an idiot and becomes worried about other mistakes she might be making without realizing it. But one thing she would know: It is too hard to fellowship with Joe. I don't know the rules.
Better to offend the hostess than to go against the extra biblical teachings of man?
Lucy
b.r.,
i feel i better give props to bro. paul as those are his words in his epistle to the saints at philippi...
...i:xviii
*and we all know that i take paul at his word. :)
Brian even in quoting truth, KMC has to get his dig in - notice that he italicized pretence in that verse.
Love the consistency however KMC - lets not be truly inspired by changed loves!
Nice to have you here now that JLG has left the building
Jim Champion
Tom,
I am not trying to add to the Bible, only follow it. A Bishop sir, is to be blameless.
I have liberty to do many things, yet for the sake of a weaker brother or sister in Christ, as well as for a testimony to a lost and dying world... I cannot partake. Only in a world this sick could a preacher taking a stand against alcohol be labeled as committing a sin.
Joe W.
We were on a mission trip and our hostess worked very hard on our meal. She provide me with a huge slab of…goat. I went so far out of my way not to offend that I asked for seconds. And no, it didn’t taste like chicken.
I'm not saying we should down a whole bottle as not to offend but we shouldn't make sour grapes out of this issue. (I'm not a comedian but I did spend the night in a Holiday Inn express last night.)
Lucy,
You wrote... "Better to offend the hostess than to go against the extra biblical teachings of man?"
Not so... I just like pointing out inconsistencies. Wade understands that lusting after women is sin, so he avoids the strip club. He was not concerned with offending Sir Charles, yet Charles gives the invitation after learning that Wade is a pastor.
Why then... knowing that drunkeness is a sin, did Wade not avoid the alcohol like he did the strip club?
Joe W.
Joe W,
I noticed that you have not addressed Wade's answer to you, but have addressed others.
Knowing some of Wade's theological persuasion, I believe he wants to obey from his heart the law of Christ as found in the New Testament.
If Wade has misinterpreted 1 Timothy 3:3 in his response to you, could you share where he errs in his understanding?
Grace
Benji
Joe W:
This post by Wade is not about drunkeness no more than it is about lying, gluttony, etc.
I think everyone here should read Galatians. A nice book found in the bible that explains a lot of the issue being discussed. Why would anyone ever think that having a new law (and especially drawing a circle around a law) would be good?
I believe if the church would for once preach that Christians had liberty, there would be many in the churches that would realize they were not Christians. If we proclaimed the liberty that we truly have in Christ, then asked everyone to look back upon their lives to see what they did with that liberty, it would be revealing as to whether the Holy Spirit was indeed sanctifying them and many would see no evidence of the Spirit and could subsequently be led to Christ knowing they had never been born-agian.
As it is now, we preach law to our congregations and because we are bound by law, when we look upon our life we see "Good deed" like abstenence, and mistaken this deed as the work of the Spirit. I believe because we preach a new law, many are deceived into thinking their good deeds are proof of their salvation, when in fact it is simply a legalistic approach void of any true conversion of the heart.
Preach liberty and let's let the Spirit work!
Robert
Benji,
You wrote... "If Wade has misinterpreted 1 Timothy 3:3 in his response to you, could you share where he errs in his understanding?"
I have done so in each post, yet will endeavor to do so once more. Hear these words, not from me, but from Matthew Henry.
"If a man desired the pastoral office, and from love to Christ, and the souls of men, was ready to deny himself, and undergo hardships by devoting himself to that service, he sought to be employed in a good work, and his desire should be approved, provided he was qualified for the office. A minister must give as little occasion for blame as can be, lest he bring reproach upon his office. He must be sober, temperate, moderate in all his actions, and in the use of all creature-comforts. He must be of good repute among his neighbours, and under no reproach from his former life."
Again I ask... where is the consistency?
Joe W.
I think you may be confusing the issue for lack of an understanding of one's motive or the work of the Spirit in a Christian's life.
My motive for drinking the glass of wine was not to get drunk. I can think of very few motives that are good as to why someone might go to a strip club. A few might be emergency personnel to break up a fight, or a father to rescue a daughter from a horrible lifestyle, or an undercover officer to arrest a criminal, etc . . .
A Christian who goes to the strip club is usually going with the motive of lust. I can assure you that my motive to drink the glass of wine was to 'become all things to all people' in order that I might win some. Of course, I would have never participated in the violation of the biblical standard - drunkenness.
The fact that you cannot see the difference between consuming a glass of wine at dinner in someone's home and paying a cover charge to enter the doors of a strip club is evident that you consider even drinking a glass of wine, or having a glass of beer 'sin,' regardless of the motive. The hosts of the dinner were wine collectors and no more considered drinking a glass of wine 'sin' than you and I consider drinking tea a 'sin.' And, since I am cherish the sacred text, I believe that drunkenness is the sin, not the consumption of a glass of wine - though I personally usually choose to abstain for other motives and reasons. If the Lord clearly convicts you that a glass of wine is a sin for you (as is the personal conviction of Brent Price), then all fellowship around the Jesus Christ with others who disagree is a personal humility that not all Christians are led by the Spirit the same, and love for those who are different.
I can assure that even Charles Barkley knows the difference between the motives for going to the strip club and that of drinking a glass of wine as a guest in a home.
Wow Joe - you picked 4 words out of the entire new testament (while ignoring the clear command to not get drunk) and you establish a new commandment for us all based on those four words. Wow.
This post has been removed by the author.
Jerry Grace had a good post a few months ago on how we know a lot more about alcohol now than we used to, and our knowledge should lead us to treat it as the toxin that it is. I like that approach because it teaches wisdom instead of rules. (It's worth noting that the reason alcohol is an effective antiseptic is also because of the toxic effect of alcohol, by the way. But modern wines also usually contain sulfites to minimize bacteria that are also wine-bibbers...so to speak.)
If Jesus was satisfied with the rule-based living that was occurring around the time he was born, why would he bother dying on the cross? There must have been something about it that wasn't sufficient. And he spent more than a little bit of his effort expositing to his own disciples exactly which kinds of behavior didn't hit the mark (i.e. were sinful.)
One of my dad's favorite sermon subjects--he preaches a lot in other churches both in supply and as an interim and has over the years--is the story of the prodigal son. He likes to point out that there were TWO prodigals in the household: the older brother also had a heart issue that he wasn't willing to address or to forsake. So while the younger brother returned to the Father, the older one hadn't.
While we Christians read that as the Jews, Jesus undoubtedly intended it to mean those that didn't accept that the requirements of the Law were being fulfilled through Grace. And today there are many that still do not accept the Scandalon that is Grace.
I see nothing wrong with a Southern Baptist choosing teetotaling or even teaching it as a matter of wisdom. But Southern Baptists traditionally haven't been able to restrain their worst instincts and insist on institutionalizing this "wisdom" that they have discovered in the Bible. It is NOT missing the mark to drink wine. You shouldn't sign up to a church covenant that has the traditional anti-alcohol statement in it and then drink wine, though, but who is requiring you to sign up to that Covenant and to treat it as the force of law?
If you answer "the weaker brother that wrote it and used the human political process to ensconce it in the local congregation", you're getting very close to the truth of the situation.
I counsel you, therefore, Joe W. to seek to be a stronger brother who understands and accepts that the Holy Spirit works with us individually. Such a stronger brother/sister will no longer rely on legalism to try and conform another Christian to the eikon of Christ Jesus.
That God redeems our sin so that it no longer has a penalty is not the completion of the redemption story. He also redeems the same sin so that it becomes a lesson in our conformation to the eikon of Christ Jesus and that is...as Paul Harvey is known to say (no relation by the way, and Harvey is an adopted stage name for him)...the rest of the story.
We aren't in charge of making people perfect. We're in charge of helping them understand that God forgives the sin because of the spilled blood of Christ Jesus. In order for drinking wine to be a sin, that blood would have to lose its power because that view makes Jesus a sinner. It is only by faith that we can appropriate that forgiveness and only by faith that it is imputed to us AS righteousness ("and that not of ourselves, so that no one can boast.") It isn't faith that declares drinking alcohol a sin. It is folly.
But there is wisdom in counseling that alcohol's intake as a mood changing substance should be done with great consideration and personal assessment, especially taking into account some of the more toxic influences of the drug. And those that conclude it should never be ingested are to be commended for making the tougher choice...at least as long as they recognize that there is not even one iota more righteousness in their decision than another Christian deciding to drink with moderation. Not one. And even the argument that teetotaling is WISER than moderation is a difficult one to prove beyond a shadow of doubt.
Greg Harvey
"Why then... knowing that drunkeness is a sin, did Wade not avoid the alcohol like he did the strip club?"
Because a glass of wine is not automatic drunkeness.
Let us get to the heart of the matter. Was the wine in the bible fermented or not? I have seen some serious mental gymnastics by some to prove it wasn't. If it wasn't then why the admonition to not get drunk?
Lucy
" A minister must give as little occasion for blame as can be, lest he bring reproach upon his office. He must be sober, temperate, moderate in all his actions, and in the use of all creature-comforts. He must be of good repute among his neighbours, and under no reproach from his former life."
Again I ask... where is the consistency?"
Where is the irony since Paul
told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach. :o)
Sobering, huh?
If exercising liberty is a sin, then it is not liberty. Good grief. These people were not weaker brethren. They were lost.
I almost get the impression that people prefer that these people remain lost than that our "baptist identity" (how I am coming to hate that phrase) be violated.
No one is calling for the use of alcohol as an evangelism tool. It was a situation and an opportunity. One that called for a decision on what was more important, baptist identity or putting a defensive person at ease for the chance to share the Gospel.
Lucy,
Those mental gymnastics are better called:
The Baptist Two-Step or Polka
It's the closest some Baptists will ever get to Dancing.
Bill, Thanks for explaining it so well. I was thinking just now that being around drinkers in a bar would NEVER be a temptation to me or cause me to sin personally by getting drunk.
But, boy could I sin at the bookstore spending what I should not spend on tons of history books that I love to read that would take me away from scripture for long periods.
why is it that Wade shares a life changing story and some get more caught up in a glass of wine than the fact lives were changed?
Joe,
You said "A Bishop sir, is to be blameless."
Is this what I am supposed to take as engaging 1 timothy 3:3 without defining what blameless is according to the text?
I'm talking about showing a little exegesis, not a little Matthew Henry.
Grace
Benji
Kevin:
Sadly they just do not see this as Great News!! How sad.
Benji,
Shall I try once more? Why not?
1 Timothy 3:3... "Not given to wine..."
μή
mē
may
A primary particle of qualified negation (whereas G3756 expresses an absolute denial); (adverbially) not, (conjugationally) lest; also (as interrogitive implying a negative answer [whereas G3756 expects an affirmative one]); whether: - any, but, (that), X forbear, + God forbid, + lack, lest, neither, never, no (X wise in), none, nor, [can-] not, nothing, that not, un [-taken], without. Often used in compounds in substantially the same relations.
πάροινος
paroinos
par'-oy-nos
From G3844 and G3631; staying near wine, that is, tippling (a toper): - given to wine.
Why?
Because as Proverbs 20:1 points out... "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise."
If we must partake of alcohol to win some people to the Lord... what must we do win others. How far are you willing to take this line of thought? What really suprises me, is that this line of thought comes from people who supposedly believe in the sovereignty of God and are reformed.
God does not need your help to touch a heart. He could just as easily convicted this couple of their sin if Wade had drank the water or tea she prepared. Where oh where is the consistency? Let's make sure we give credit where credit is due. It was not Wade suggesting he drink a glass of wine that changed this couples lives, Kevin.
Joe W.
why is it that Wade shares a life changing story and some get more caught up in a glass of wine than the fact lives were changed?
Because that is what legalism does. It looks to his own law instead of grace, not seeing how God could use such a thing.
Wade,
Yes and Amen to this posting.
As a sidebar before making my main observation, you do realize that IMB missionaries would not be able to follow your example here and avoid giving offense to their host/hostess without violating their commitment to the BFM?
I have observed that most posters on this website go to great lengths to prove, or at least verbally attest, that their views or beliefs are based on scripture. I recall my history professor at SWBTS delineating the differentces between Catholics and Baptists - one difference being that Catholics rely on tradition while Baptists rely solely on scripture.
I've lived a few years since that class and I think that anyone of us is extremely shortsighted in affirming our commitment to, and practice of, Sola Scriptura. No one comes to the scriptures with an untainted world view or cultural view. We come with well-set thought patterns, world and cultural views, recognized, as well as unrecognized, prejudices - all formed by the influences of our teachers, our cultures, our families, our mothers and fathers in the faith, our churches, our various church histories and teachings, our traditions . . .
Everyone brings, it seems to me, so much attendant baggage to the scripture that any affirmation we make to interpreting the scripture apart from all that other "stuff" seems a bit arrogant (no, I did not call anyone arrogant - I do see, however, where you could get that). In the light of all the above, it seems to me that it would behoove all God's children to embrace an open and "generous orthodoxy". I use that last phrase with full cognizance that I lay myself open to multiple potshots and lobs of fire and brimstone, but I can't help myself - feeling it one of my callings in life to provoke others to think more deeply than they might otherwise.
Just some of my musings.
BB in KY
Joe,
Nobody ever said the glass of wine converted Carol. The Holy Spirit converted Carol to faith in Christ through the proclamation of the gospel. It just so happens that Carol opened her heart and mind to actually hear the message, from a messenger she thought she would despise (a Baptist preacher), because that preacher was not interested in following written or unwritten Baptist identity 'rules,' rules which would have turned off the Roman Catholic from listening to his message, as much as he concerned with simply showing the importance of the centrality of the gospel of Christ in his life.
Joe, Paul is talking about 'too much wine':
1 Tim 3
8(A) Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued,[a](B) not addicted to much wine,(C) not greedy for dishonest gain.
Or else he would be a hypocrite here:
1 Tim 5
23(No longer drink only water, but(A) use a little wine(B) for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)
ESV
Would Timothy be 'blameless' not above reproach for taking a little wine?
Wade,
I supported you when the original post was published, and time has proven your choice correct!
Not offending, being all things to all people, and knowing how to show grace to a lost family is one of your gifts!
Just like with all the gifts, there will always be those who pharisaically judge you, and you know what Jesus said about that....
Keep up the Grace Wade, we love you for that!
BB,
We definitely have our traditions!
Joe W.,
I agree wholeheartedly with you that the end does not justify the means. I have to say, however, that the Bible is not quite so clear on alcohol being evil as you seem to interpret.
While pastoring in Appomattox County, VA, I had the privilege to read some of the association's history. 200 years ago, Baptists gathered at the associational meetings, passing around the alcoholic cup of fellowship. It was not until the social prohibition movement that Baptists picked up on this abstinence only motif.
Joe, while you would have us ask our theological forefathers about women in ministry, why not ask them about the consumption of alcohol? We don't even have to go back to Luther and Calvin to find that they drank alcohol. It was the ONLY beverage onboard for those traveling to the New World.
Why would Jesus turn water into wine, if all should abstain? This is a religio-cultural issue of tradition, not Scripture.
Deuteronomy 14:26 (22-29 for whole passage) ... God, speaking in the first person, and giving specific parameters for His tithe, gives His people license to exchange their tithe for silver and use it to buy "wine or other fermented drink" or "whatever you wish."
It's God doing the talking, not Paul. And God would never suggest His people sin, whether OT or NT.
Patricia Jones
Joe W,
You silly guy you.
Wade said "If you actually observe the sacred text itself, the phrase is 'much wine,' translated 'drunkenness' in the ESV and other translations."
Is Wade out in left field here, claiming to be rubber duckey, in need of Oprah or what?
Benji
P.S. I only ask that you be blunt this time.
I'm in need of a dictionary:
It's rubber duckie, not rubber duckey
[hitting my forehead at this point]:)
I have for a long time held that the SBC could be as useful in the future as it has in the past. My prayer is that it can. I only hope that the remarks on this page are not indicative of those in the pews, otherwise I am discouraged. If we can argue to such lengths about drinking, when nobody is advocating drunkenness, but simply the consumption of a drink that Jesus consummed himself (which begs the WWJD question), then how in the world are we going to cooperate for missions when there are so many other issues that we can argue over after this one is resolved next millennia.
Wade, your point that narrowing the parameters will limit missions in the future is WELL taken. It isn't that the parameters will be narrowed, but that the process it takes to narrow them will kill the SBC.
Robert
Wade,
Don't despair. Jesus faced the very same attitudes 2000 years ago. He too was called a "winebibber" by the "religionists". These are the very same people who, when Jesus healed the paralytic on the Sabbath, complained about the newly healed man carrying his mat, instead of rejoicing with him (John 5). The saddest part is that the Pharisees were blind to their arrogance and legalism, as many SBC'ers are today. To be judged and put down by this group puts you in pretty good company!
Wade,
Thanks for adding pictures to your posts.
Nice touch!
Shibboleth,
David Mc
Joe W.
This may horrify you and the rest of the list...
but while I wouldn't go wandering around in a strip club looking for some random soul to save, I would not hesitate to walk straight in one if I needed to reach out to a friend or someone in need.
Flame away!
David Mc
PS-The word verification is asking me to type "mecca".
This is proof that Wade is a closet Muslim.
oh my word, here we go.......
Wade,
The comments don`t make a difference, you are where you need to be.
Christ and Him crucified.....whatever it takes to get someone to seek repentence.
You get it....they don`t
I'm a Catholic that sometimes visits this blog. I just finished a nice brandy with some club soda mixed in, it was very tasty. I think I'll have another before praying the rosary with special intentions for the Pope.
Reading all of these comments never fails to make me more settled in my faith. I can't understand an offshoot of a faith tradition that's been around for what, almost four centuries, still debating matters like temperance, tongue speaking, baptism, calvinism, women in ministry, authority, et cetera, without much indication that matters will soon be put to rest. Isn't the Bible supposed to be your infallible guide in all things regarding faith and morals? If so, why so much conflict?
It's a wonder all of you don't do some serious drinking.
A V Pepper
A Pepper
The issue of alcohol use is tricky. I tend to lean toward two ideas: 1) Alcohol use is permitted in Scripture in moderate use, and 2) I don't use it because it would mess up my witness more times than it would help.
I'm excited for the people who came to Christ during the visit and how they have become functional followers of Jesus. Yet I'm not convinced their experience proves the moderation method of evangelism. It's always hard to argue against a view when saved people are the picture of success. Who is going to argue against that?
I was a serious drunk before I became a believer. The sin associated with my actions were not good either.
Our problem in Baptist life is not with exegesis. It is with application.
I won't say what could have happened other than what did happen in the past.
I can say I would not feel any obligation to compromise my Scriptural beliefs to witness to someone. I would gracefully explain my gratitude as I simply stated, "I don't drink." I could have done it without being legalistic. It would not have bothered me if they drank. I expect that because they are lost. Even if saved, I won't have a fit over it.
I'm not legalistic because of my position. Am I?
Catholic Pepper,
No one on here (and I speak for everyone) cares whether or not you want to drink wine or beer, or roll a joint if you so choose. What we ALL care about is that you understand that salvation is by faith through grace plus NOTHING. There is one mediator between God and man and His name is Christ Jesus. You cannot find eternal life in tradition, nor obtain salvific grace through the sacraments. We would all earnestly plead with you to test your faith by Scripture--God's Word. We as Baptists have our traditions. But none of them are tied to salvation. They are tied to Godly living. Please reject the traditions of man which claim to lead to salvation in Christ. Please seek a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, God's only Son. Ask Him into your heart. Repent to Christ of your sins once and for all. Pray only to the Father in heaven through His Son. Mary and the Saints who are with God are without body and form. They exist in bosom of Abraham, they exist in the glory of Glory of God. One day we will see them only if we believe. But it is for God's glory and His glory alone that we believe through the power of the Holy Spirit.
May the Spirit draw you near to Christ.
ihs,
K
David in Florida,
i have 2 problems with this statement: "whatever it takes to get someone to seek repentence"
1: Not you, not I, not Wade, nor anyone else on the planet now or ever, will EVER "get someone to seek repentance." That work is entirely the job of the holy Spirit and He alone.
2: "Whatever it takes" is not biblical. Paul said "by all means possible." Not all things are possible if one is to use the whole of Scripture.
k
Alan,
With your background with alcoholism I would think that total abstinence is the only wise and prudent policy for you, and I would think that every Christian would respect that and help you to never violate that conviction.
When I worked in education, part of my job was to show pictures to students and have them respond. One day I showed this large, busy, complicated picture to a boy, and he surprised me by zeroing in on a tiny part and talking about it when no one else ever had. I looked, and that part was less than a thousandth of the whole picture and had no impact on its meaning. It was the ONLY thing he noticed about the scene and literally could NOT focus on what was going on, etc.
I think maybe that boy has a fine future ahead of him in the area of religious legalism and authoritarianism. To pick one word out of an entire description and miss the meaning of the passage completely!
Wade, you just keep on telling it like it happened. Going to young adults and winning them - that's how the church will prosper.
Greg Harvey, you're right again, of course.
P.S.: Time to check my medicine - I'm starting to like reading Crowder's stuff.
Well, let's just throw common sense right out the window.
The misery that alcohol abuse causes in our world every day should lead any mature person, and certainly any pastor, to recognize that the best road to promote is total abstinence.
One drink of wine, maybe does not constitute "drunkenness". But the alcoholic intake of one glass of wine begins to give one a warm fuzzy feeling, especially for those not adept to drinking on a regular basis. You begin to become less inhibited, say things that you would not say without having that one drink. Then there are those of us who seem to have the DNA to become alcoholics and the introduction of one glass of wine creates a desire for another. Maybe YOU do not have that inclination, but the one with whom YOU are a model may.
Then you consider all the people that are aware that you have had that "one drink". Many do not accept that this is the only drink you have ever had. They use you as an example to justify their drinking.
Few people that drink socially never have occasion to get intoxicated eventually. That one time of over-doing it at the New Year's celebration could be the time they cross the line and kill someone on the highways. Ask the families of those killed by drunk drivers what they think about telling people, "It's okay to have one drink."
No, you don't have to offend those who do not relate to a church culture. I their culture, drinking may be the norm. I have explained why I no longer drink to Italian friends who consider drinking wine as natural as drinking water. I explained in a way that showed respect and love for them and which not only did not offend them, but earned their respect for my personal convictions. The fact that they subsequently invited me to their home and to eat with them frequently testified to me that we were still close friends.
Given the use of carefully chosen words, we do not have to compromise our ideals in order to not appear to be judging others who have different positions.
So, you go ahead and argue for the Scriptural basis of drinking a glass of wine. Although it breaks my heart to see Baptist leaders as advocates of that position, that's their chosen path to take if they choose.
I prefer to be able to simply say, "No thank you. I don't drink."
"There is one mediator between God and man and His name is Christ Jesus."
Women, too? Are you sure that after reading comments here, Mr. Pepper, may not think that Baptist women must be sanctified by their husbands..their earthly priests?
And what about pastors...aren't we to be under their authority? Kinda like a Pope?
Wade, I can't believe it been two years since that post. I loved it then and now to hear how God has blessed and matured this couple is indeed something to rejoice about.
We have a 37 yr old man who has been living with us for 7 month. He has been sober for 7 months for the first time in his life. I thank God for delivering him.
Needless to say we don't drink here, we didn't before he came. But like many have said here, I'm much more interested in hearing about the transforming power of Christ than I am about what beverage you had with dinner.
Mr. Pepper,
While we may have internal, intramural debates–and vigorous ones at that–this is within the context of the imputation of Christ. That He has taken our sin and has given us His righteousness. We don’t cooperate with His Grace, we accept it; we don’t have any doubts about our future home for His active obedience to the Law and His passive obedience in death and His marvelous resurrection is indeed sufficient. Christ did His work (ONCE)on the cross to placate the wrath of God and our confidence remains in Him alone.
So throw your stones at us, your insults, we still implore you to come out of your man made trappings–here we stand, we can do no other.
John in the STL
Alan,
"I don't use it because it would mess up my witness more times than it would help."
From my experience, the concerns here are really about witness among believers, but not really with those outside of the church. I have not found that unbelievers are phased by a believer having a drink. If anything, I have found it to work just the opposite way. They see the believer with a drink as someone who is not there to judge their behavior, but to love them.
Wade, thanks again for clarifying for us all that Christ Jesus is the center, focus, and source of our unity and commitment. That was the point of the sermon at last night's meeting of the Piedmont Baptist Association here in Virginia.
David,
No flame throwing here. I would agree with you, though it would be a tough challenge. (We will have to keep our eyes open for other hidden Islamic references...)
On the missionfield, it was necessary for us to take a folk dance class as an entryway into a closed population group. It was a struggle for me to step out against a whole lot of tradition, even though I knew there was no problem with dancing itself. What we found out, however, was that the group we were seeking to reach held to higher morality concerns in some expressions than our local Baptist churches did.
As to the alcohol served, it did indeed reduce inhibitions. When someone would get drunk, they would make a beeline towards me to ask questions of theology, church history, and Baptist heritage. No, I did not need to drink there, but I did need not to criticize others for their different ways, just build bridges of love and concern to open the door to sharing faith, love, and grace.
RRR:
Your comments make the argument very well that in order to drink wine responsibly, we need the transformation that God offers. And once we have that transformation, alcohol becomes a poor substitute for the infilling of the Holy Spirit that brings to our lives a sense of completion that misuse of alcohol can never bring.
At least that's what I think Paul meant when he offers the implicit contrast between "not being drunk with wine" and "being filled with the Spirit." That is an argument from wisdom that does not require a "rule" to be enforced. In order for us to grow up in Christ Jesus, we need to let go of the rules and live in relationship to him. The rules are crutches for listening to the whispering voice of the Spirit as God is available to guide us--in an experience I've heard repeatedly described as "soft nudges"--in practically every decision we make.
When God doesn't seem to be answering, the nudges are still there, but they're usually softer and sometimes it seems God isn't nudging at all but counting on us to make decisions that are inherently consistent with the path he has been nudging us down. And sometimes he even allows Satan to rain down pain and suffering in our lives and simply waits to see how our faith in him directs our choicemaking.
All of these kinds of situations require a maturity that is well beyond enforcing rules. And building those rules to enforce over the conscience of people who truly are listening to God is insulting both to God and to those people.
Demanding teetotaling is no different than Pharisees saying you can't wear shoes with nails in them on the Sabbath. It's a hedge against permitting the individual believer the liberty to make the good decision without being coerced. It's the same liberty that goes with seeing NC17 movies, speaking "swear" words, playing poker, going to Las Vegas to "game", and so forth.
In fact, it is the same liberty we received in the Garden of Eden when God restricted us from eating from the tree. I say us because Paul's comments suggest it was as if we were there when Adam and Eve sinned, almost as if WE are the great cloud of witnesses to THAT sin. And by counterposition, the writer of Hebrews uses the exact same argument--not rulemaking--in order to convince believers to behave in a way that is heroic in the sight of God.
We have a unique opportunity to become as a group of people who God REALLY intends us to be not by moralizing on drinking, but by teaching imputed righteousness seeks God's leadership and lives gratitude out loud by following that leadership to the best of our ability to discern it. We can break with tradition right now and establish a thoughtful approach to life that doesn't depend on rule crutches (while, arguably, still keeping in sight the wisdom that was placed in each rule.)
That's how Jesus lived his life. And as we conform to the image of who he is (I AM!), we grow a new sense of liberty that is found in being exactly who God desires us to be without being self-righteous at all.
That is why this is such an important discussion. Without that, our self-moralizing and self-rule-writing is pride. And the fact that you used the term 'earned' when talking about your friends respecting your convictions is precisely the point where pride entered your explanation. There is nothing for them to admire in you not taking a drink of alcohol with them. It's simply a choice you've made to be a teetotaler. Not even Jesus made that choice according to the Bible. Have you exceeded HIS righteousness through YOUR choice?
And if you haven't, how do you justify your heartbreak that some Baptists view this as a non-issue?
Greg Harvey
I never have had a drink, that I know of. I did have a coke at a high school football game that made me feel real good, but no absolutes to it being spiked.
One of the compelling reasons I refuse to drink is that I want my children to not drink. I don't want them to even be tempted to accept the moderation mantra, try a drink and become addicted. I don't want to have a policeman stand at my door and tell me my child caused a wreck while drinking and driving, knowing all along it was my influence which gave the OK to consume alcohol.
Maybe I could keep it under control for myself but I must always be aware of who I am influencing and is such influence going to help come to know Christ and have them walk soberly before Christ.
Therefore, since the bible does not command that we should not drink it would seem the best path to take for a believer, and those who God has placed under them to influence, to choose to abstain.
The human cost of drinking is way to high to even have this debate among American Christians where the land of the free and home of the brave bury to many children and others due to this drug of choice.
KMC - Others might begin to like what you are saying such as the guy above, but you will never fool a lover of God's word with your own nonsense mixed in.
You said to Catholic Pepper, "What we ALL care about is that you understand that salvation is by faith through grace plus NOTHING."
Are you trying to quote Ephesians? Is this another "innocent mistake" by you just as you attributed a quote from Piper to the catechism in the last post?
Do you really have a foot-shaped mouth?
Ephesians 2:8 says,
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.
This is the NIV so maybe you can follow it. Do you see that we are not saved by faith through grace as you said. Do you have enough snap to know the difference here? Your reckless comments are leading me to believe that you do not.
You get angry at Wade when he leads a catholic to Christ when he could have tore her down with a stupid conversation about alcohol, but you feel okay with pushing a catholic further away by misquoting scripture?
Please stay away from the pulpit until you have studied more and your testing is complete
...and you pass!
I hate having to portray this kind of attitude toward you. But as everyone here knows, you won't have it any other way. You think you know everything, even when you are hit between the eyes with facts that prove differently.
Lord have mercy on us all. Especially me!