Grace and Truth to You

Personal Reflections on the Southern Baptist Convention, Christian Ministry, the Expositional Teaching of God's Word, and the Occasional Thought on My Family and the World in General

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Name: Wade Burleson
Location: Enid, Oklahoma

I am a native Oklahoman, educated in Texas, and have spent the last twenty five years pastoring in Oklahoma. I have a beautiful wife and four wonderful children.

Tuesday, April 22, 2008

I Would Not Have Sinned, Except for the Law

Some Southern Baptist leaders believe that the way to stop believers from straying into sin, or to keep church members living lives consistent with personal holiness, or to establish churches with a worthy 'Baptist Identity,' is to lay out for Christians 'the law' of proper behavior. Following the articulation of 'the law' (whatever it may be from church to church), comes the use of threats (see picture below) to keep Christians from violating the laws of the church. In this manner, some Southern Baptist leaders seem to feel comfortable that they have done all they can to perserve the purity of God's kingdom. However, in my experience, such behavior exhibited by church leadership contradicts the beauty of the gospel as an internal change of heart. To demand conformity through outward pressure is a tactic of religious cults, not Christian grace.
Years ago a young man named Eric was driving by the church I pastored in Tulsa. He had a pistol underneath the front seat, an open container of beer in the cup holder, and was on his way to an open field where he would drink himself to drunkenness in order to have the courage to commit suicide by shooting himself in the head. As he drove south on Sheridan Road he saw our church sign that said, "Prepare to Meet Thy God." The words so rattled him he turned into our parking lot and prayed, "God, if you are sending me a sign, let someone be inside this church to help me." The Lord answered his prayer.

Eric came into our offices and our Worship Pastor began to talk with him about knowing Christ. I was soon called and within an hour we had the privilege of seeing the Holy Spirit regenerate Eric's soul, with the end result of Eric trusting Jesus Christ as His Savior and Lord. The transformation was enormous. Eric was excited about his new life in Christ and when we explained the purpose of baptism, Eric committed to be in church Sunday to make known his faith in Christ through believer's baptism. We explained that at the conclusion of my sermon, he would need to come down the aisle to be introduced to our church and he would be baptized later that night.

Sunday morning came and I closed the message with an invitation to make public the work God had done, or was doing, in the listeners' lives. No sooner did our Worship Pastor begin singing when Eric came running down the aisle, and in King James language, he came walking and leaping and praising God. When the appropriate time came I introduced him to our church. "Ladies and gentlemen, I want to introduce you to a young man who this week was intent on killing himself, but God has intervened. This is Eric . . ." As I was speaking to the crowd I turned to look at Eric and to my horror, I saw Eric was wearing a Budweiser Beer T-Shirt that said, "Budweiser, King of Beers."

I knew some of the deacons would be upset. Sure enough, after church one of the older deacons came up to me and said, "Pastor, did you talk to Eric?" Acting ignorant, though knowing full well what he meant, I said, "About what?" "Did you tell him he ought not be wearing that beer t-shirt in church? It ain't appropriate."

I took a deep breath and said, "No, I didn't. He has just come to faith in Christ. If we begin to tell him what he can't do, shouldn't do, ought not do, etc . . . we quench the work of the Spirit by imposing a law. If we were to speak to him about the t-shirt, and he were to stop wearing it, he will confuse regulations of a religion with the reality of a relationship. Let's love him, get to know him, and encourage him - but let's stay away from the 'should nots' of religion and give time for his relationship with Christ to develop."

I can't say my deacon fully understood what I was saying, but to his credit, he listened quietly - and walked away without a response. We baptized Eric that night and the next Sunday Eric came to Sunday school wearing a 'Coors' t-shirt. The next week he came with a Michelob Light t-shirt. The following week he came to church wearing another beer t-shirt.

Eric was a beer t-shirt collector.

It was not easy staying quiet. Many were tempted to say something. I might have said something if the Bible addressed the subject, but nowhere in the sacred text does it say, "Thou shalt not wear a beer t-shirt to church." Eric himself had no idea that some people might be 'offended' at his clothing, and when a handful of church members came to me to talk about Eric's Sunday dress, I asked them if they were personally offended with this new Christian wearing beer t-shirts. Those who spoke to me about it, to a person, never said they were personally offended, but there was some, nebulous person 'out there' who might be. I told them when they could introduce me to this mysterious, offended person, whom I had not yet met, I would talk to Eric. Until then, our love for Eric would cause us to love him where he was in his walk with Christ.

About the fifth Sunday Eric came to church wearing a new t-shirt. It was a t-shirt with a Christian logo. He had found a Christian t-shirt store and, prompted by the Spirit, Eric purchased several t-shirts with a Christian message. That Sunday he had traded in his "Budweiser: King of Beers" t-shirt for one that said, "Jesus Christ: King of Kings." Christ had Eric's heart. The change that occurred happened within. There was not the demand for conformity imposed upon this young Christian by a Southern Baptist congregation, but rather, there was the powerful, internal work of the Spirit within the heart of a man that experienced the love, acceptance and patience of a people who themselves had tasted of the grace of God.

Because many Southern Baptist churches, contrary to historic Baptist principles, are often filled with unregenerate, lost people, Southern Baptist pastors are often tempted to impose LAW on the congregation to keep them in line. However, when churches recognize the beauty and power of the Holy Spirit to tranform lives, and receive people into membership whom the Spirit has already given new life in Christ (and not those convinced to 'join the church' through manipulation), then we pastors can simply trust in "He who began a good work". May God give us the necessary grace to resist the temptation to precede the internal work of the Spirit in His people. Patience allows us to feel the excitement of seeing the beautiful, internal work of the Spirit which trumps any work of the law.

In His Grace,

Wade

207 Comments:

Blogger greg.w.h said...

Wade,

Absolutely wonderful story. I desire that we pray more and constrain less. I have complete faith in God to answer our prayers for situations like this: though, perhaps, not exactly the way we might answer the same prayers if WE were God!!

Those who are used to imposing Law also have a problem with their own personal sense of liberty and freedom. They're afraid of that liberty and afraid of the freedom lest they get too close and be caught and drawn in by sin.

Again, God is bigger than that. That doesn't mean we should go out of our way to be tempted, but if God's power is so finite that he can't help us deal with temptation, then how on earth can he save us from our sin?

This time is leading up to the Annual Meeting. We have a clear choice in how we pray and what we ask God for as he prepares our hearts for that meeting. On one hand we have the well-intentioned but legalistic alcohol resolution from 2006. On the other hand, we have the Garner Resolution that calls for our restrictionism to be limited to those things we can agree on and pass by a decent majority into the Baptist Faith & Message.

My prayer is that God would teach each of us the value of soul freedom to do what is "lawful" as a natural--rather than coerced--act of gratitude for this great salvation and faith that has been passed on and imparted to us. I pray that he would teach it to us in exactly the way that this story speaks: showing God's mighty power far and vastly overcoming our limited, hopeless restrictionist attitudes.

In the past few months, I've begun to see real evidence that the problem of spiritual meanness is starting to break through in the hearts of some leaders. There is an admission that it is a problem--though the detailed confessions that allow real heart change are still missing. And I'm not speaking about an event that I would expect ANYONE who reads your blog to either know about or understand. But it is exactly that powerful of a change of heart.

God can harden and God can soften hearts. We need to pray for softening lest he instead harden hearts to the point of bringing people home instead of permitting them to continue in his service here. That are prayers on this subject would be intentionally reflexive would, no doubt, be an even greater joy for Our Father. He might even greet us on the run...so to speak.

Greg Harvey

Tue Apr 22, 12:27:00 AM 2008  
Blogger davidbmclaughlin.com said...

I can't remember what my previous favorite post of yours was, but this is my new favorite post of yours.

LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!

Can't wait to hear what was wrong with your approach from those whose ministry it is to correct you.

Shibboleth,
David Mc

Tue Apr 22, 12:35:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Steve said...

I came very close to being that deacon a time or two when I was learning churchiness. Isn't it odd the things we worry about?

Tue Apr 22, 12:52:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Benji Ramsaur said...

Wade,

I think if people do not get that there has been a real internal change in the heart of the Christian, then the approach of Sinai--with its thunderings and lightenings--will seem to make sense to them.

However, if people do get that there has been a real internal change, then I think Hebrews 10:24 will make sense to them.

Thank you for posting on this topic--and great illustration.

Please post some more.

Tue Apr 22, 01:10:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous blampp said...

Wade, Very applcable illustration..... I'm sure you've heard it before..... but one of our Deacon's at a pastorate in California reminded the congregation regularly.... "That our job was to get 'em caught and let the Lord get 'em clean!"
Amen and Amen! I also liked Eric's choice of t-shirts!

Tue Apr 22, 01:41:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

Wade,

Great story that shows how lost people will act like lost people until they art transformed by the saving power of Christ! The man's continued wearing of beer T-shirts after coming to Christ shows the importance of discipling new converts so they will be grow in their faith.

One question, why the beer T-shirt link? I think we get the picture here that the guy was obviously into beer T-shirt collecting. Do you need a link to drive home the point?

One thought, how patient would you have been if it had been a Playboy T-shirt and subsequent shirts would have been his collection of center-fold babes? After all the Bible doesn't say, thou shalt not wear Playboy T-shirts to church, either!

One more thought, I pray that Chris is still serving the Lord and growing as a result of the transforming work of Christ that took him out of a life of drunkenness to a life of dedication to Christ.

Tue Apr 22, 01:53:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

Sorry, I meant Eric instead of Chris.

Tue Apr 22, 01:55:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Paul said...

Seeing the women in that picture might lead me to have a beer. Just in case.

Tue Apr 22, 02:04:00 AM 2008  
Blogger David Simpson said...

Extremely inspiring, Wade- thank you.

"From the king of beers to the King of kings"- I think I heard Rick Stanley preach that once...

Tue Apr 22, 02:34:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous bryan riley said...

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard? Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Tue Apr 22, 03:46:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous bryan riley said...

Jim, it wasn't a Playboy shirt, and none of us have experienced that to answer how one might have done that in love. Perhaps Chris knew enough already because of his changed heart not to do that. We can hypothesize to death the possibilities, but when I read this post I thought there is absolutely nothing here that can legitimately be challenged or questioned, but someone will do so nonetheless.

Tue Apr 22, 03:54:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Dan Paden said...

An enjoyable story. I can't tell you how many times I've encountered Southern Baptists who will admit that there is no scriptural prohibition on a drink, just on drunkenness, but who nevertheless insist that no one ever have a drink because some hypothetical person somewhere might be dragged kicking and screaming against his will into a state of perpetual drunkenness. It's never them, of course.

I often think of something I read in an article on C.H. Spurgeon's cigar smoking to the effect that the Prince of Preachers said that (quoting from memory), "God gave us ten commandments, and I find it all I can do to keep them, and I have no desire to add to the list."

Tue Apr 22, 07:44:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Chris Harbin said...

I went to a high school where the mentality was to coerce spirituality by enforcing a rigid behavior code. There was little recognition that following the rules had little relationship to any internal change or faith in Christ. It was as if the external actions in accord with a code of morality were primary, and faith in Christ were secondary.

The only time I have felt it necessary to speak to someone about clothing was a young lady brought up in the church who did not understand the effect her choice of clothing had on others.

Faith is so much more than a morality checklist. Thanks for the post!

Tue Apr 22, 07:49:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

Wade,

What a wonderful story of grace, and of progressive sanctification! We should be very patient with new converts, allow the Holy Spirit to work, and give them milk before meat.

My only complaint about this post, is the introduction. In suttle ways, you continue to take jabs at those who believe in Baptist Distinctives.

By the way, I see nothing wrong with the sign or the stance of those strong christian females of the past.

Tue Apr 22, 09:21:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Bill said...

Jim: I may have missed it, but I don't see anything in the post that indicates that the young man was leading a life of drunkenness.

Tue Apr 22, 09:42:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Tom Parker said...

Jim Paslay:

We really need to be patient with people that come to Christ or we will turn them away--it's a shame that we get hung up about what is on a t-shirt.

Joe W:

You have a one-track mind--alcohol-alcohol--what a shame.

Tue Apr 22, 09:46:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Elizabeth Prata said...

This is beautiful! Thank you for sharing it, and so eloquently. It gave me a lot to think about.

Tue Apr 22, 09:50:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Bob Cleveland said...

Perhaps it is, that where there's little Spiritual sensitivity, or Spiritual discernment, there's a reliance on the "law" to see spirituality in others.

Or to NOT see it.

Tue Apr 22, 09:52:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Tim Rogers said...

Brother Wade,

What a great story of God's grace and the Holy Spirit's work in the life of a new believer. This is no doubt something that you and I agree should happen. What a strong and humble stand you took with those deacons. I am certain that their respect for you as their pastor grew immensly as they say how you dealt with a new believer in Grace. Something all pastors should do.

Blessings,
Tim

Tue Apr 22, 09:57:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Tim Rogers said...

Sorry, the next to last sentence should read;

I am certain that their respect for you as their pastor grew immensely as they saw how you dealt with a new believer in Grace.

Tue Apr 22, 09:59:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Wade Burleson said...

Thanks Tim.

Tue Apr 22, 10:16:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

Tom Parker,

You wrote... "You have a one-track mind--alcohol-alcohol--what a shame."

Not so. I simply chose to comment on the entire post. Read my comments again and you will see that I acknowledged and applauded the focus of this post. However, I also chose to comment on the introduction and pictures. Wade could have easily left those out if he did not desire comments about them. Why is it that you do not accuse Wade of having a one track mind?

Tue Apr 22, 10:16:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Wade Burleson said...

Joe W.

You said,

By the way, I see nothing wrong with the sign or the stance of those strong christian females of the past.

Double click on the photo. Enlarge it. If the women were truly guaranteeing that any lips that touched licquor would never touch their lips, then those women probably drove hundreds of men to the bottle.

Tue Apr 22, 10:18:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Pastor Hilliard said...

Wow. Wade you captured the whole book of Galatians in one blog post! Good stuff.

Tue Apr 22, 10:23:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Lin said...

This sentence is the KEY to the whole issue:

"Because many Southern Baptist churches, contrary to historic Baptist principles, are often filled with unregenerate, lost people, Southern Baptist pastors are often tempted to impose LAW on the congregation to keep them in line"

Tue Apr 22, 10:28:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Wade,
i was preparing a sermon on John 14 and in my study came across an article that i think fits beautifully. http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=375&C=21 Thanks for the post, Tommy

Tue Apr 22, 10:36:00 AM 2008  
OpenID CmlCros said...

Great story....it's definitely a struggle to find the balance between living a holy life and not becoming judgemental. I'm glad to hear about your reaction....thanks for allowing him to be himself. Thats cool!

Tue Apr 22, 10:36:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

Wade,

I understand your humor, unfortunately, no one understands mine. I keep forgetting to put these little marks beside of my sentences... :)

Tom Parker just missed the forest for all the trees. My post was not negative, it was positive. It contained 3 sections. First I commended the wonderful story of grace and progressive sanctification. Second, I pointed out that you still took a few jabs at the Baptist Identity crowd. Then lastly, I said... "By the way, I see nothing wrong with the sign or the stance of those strong christian females of the past."

Not sure how I get accused of having a one track mind for a post like that.

Tue Apr 22, 10:38:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wade,

Evidentally they didn't have good marketing strategies back in the 20's. I don't think my lips would want to touch any of those women.

Thanks for sharing your story.

dwmiii

Tue Apr 22, 10:39:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Kevin Bussey said...

Awesome story!

When my grandfather accepted Christ years ago after being in a gang, God called him to ministry. He decided to go to Moody Bible Institute and his former gang gave him a "Beer" party!

I'll bet God has fun with this stuff more than we do.

Tue Apr 22, 10:54:00 AM 2008  
Blogger pastorricky99 said...

I am still trying to find the right words to express what I sense in my heart. Wade, I greatly appreciate your humility and desire to see others come to know Jesus PERSONALLY, not through the 'rules', 'thoughts', or 'traditions' of others. This example is tremendous! When we allow Holy Spirit to do what God has ordained and we get out of the way, we have the ability to see God work in amazing ways and at the same time we have the added benefit of experiencing genuine transformation. Too often we as pastors and church members, maybe with great sincerity, attempt to change people and in doing so neglect the work of Holy Spirit. If we can't place the love of God on man, and if we can't save others through the blood of Jesus, then why do feel as if it is our responsibility to 'change' a new believer.

Albeit, we should teach, guide, love, encourage, disciple, etc. we can't change a person's heart or mind. That comes as Holy Spirit renews hearts and minds as the new believer comes to a greater knowledge and love of King Jesus.

If more of our churches focused on true transformation and not conformity to traditional standards or 'Baptist Identity' I wonder if we could experience a greater work of God through a regenerate church membership that is passionate about loving God, loving others, and sharing Jesus.

I should start by repenting of my selfish pride and desire for others to conform to my definitions!

Thank you for some amazing examples to follow!

a fellow servant...
panta te ethne

Ricky

Tue Apr 22, 11:09:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Tim Greer said...

Jim's reply is a classic example of the confusion on the beer issue. In his mind, beer and Playboy are essentially synonymous. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Tue Apr 22, 11:38:00 AM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I cannot remember the details of the situation, except that the other day my wife brought to mind something a very new Christian was doing. I do remember the 'something' was in nature like the beer shirt. My wife, though, lovingly, was able to talk about the situation, and the response to the new believer way, "Thanks! I have never even thought about that." In turn, there was no offense, and the Lord used my wife to bring to light something that was unwise in the life of a younger Christian.

Wade I truly appreciate this story, but I wonder if we don't miss the the Spirit working through us, at times, to help younger believers grow...if it's done in love, without judgment. Not as as giving another legalistic rule, but demonstrating a way of wisdom.

Robert

Tue Apr 22, 11:43:00 AM 2008  
Blogger Alan Paul said...

Wade-

Right after I became a christian, my pastor introduced me to a friend of his who was also a member of the church. He was a Dallas Theological Seminary student who had a heart to disciple new believers. We set up a time to meet, and at that time, I had my own business and was extremely busy. My office was in downtown Dallas just outside the West End district right across the street from a Hooters restaurant. Well, when I get busy, I often would just call Hooters and order take out and then go over and get it. When my friend and I met for the first time, I suggested, in the interest of time, that we just go across the street to eat. So we sat there in Hooters and he talked to me about scripture memory, the importance of prayer and reading my Bible. He gave me my first 4 verses to memorize. We ate lunch, got to know each other and then he left to go back to DTS and went back to work. He said nothing to me at all - and didn't for quite some time. We eventually discussed it, but if my memory serves me right, I am the one who brought that day up, not him.

I am not sure how I would have reacted if he had chastised me for suggesting we meet there. But I do know one thing, he allowed that lunch to happen because he had higher things in mind - namely to make sure I, as a new-born Christian - had the tools I needed to begin my walk with Christ. He and his wife discipled me, along with my wife, for 4 years after that. We met every Saturday night and then him and I met at least twice a month during the business days.

I can't begin to tell you how much that has mean to me since then. He provided that foundation I needed on which to grow deeper in my faith in Christ. If he had made a big deal about eating at Hooters that time? I don't think would have walked away from the faith, but doubt we would have become such good friends and I would have missed the opportunity to be solidly grounded in my faith. And he would have missed God's appointed task for him, namely, discipling a floundering new believer who was looking for a reason to continue in his newfound faith.

Thanks for this post, it made my day.

Tue Apr 22, 12:04:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous bryan riley said...

Robert, I appreciate what you are saying, and I think that at the heart of it is a sensitivity to the Spirit - and not to a method or a rule. On one occasion the Spirit may lead you to confront in love; on another occasion the Spirit may lead you to pray silently for someone; on another occasion the Spirit may minister directly into that other person's life without any words from anyone. That is the work of the Spirit. And when we submit and don't just apply human rules, well, wow! it's powerful stuff.

Tue Apr 22, 12:06:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Alan Paul said...

Joe W.- I think Wade needs to continue to take shots at the Baptist distinctives and keep shooting until they have been demolished in the way all idols should be.

Tue Apr 22, 12:12:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Bryan, that is my point. I think we CAN address some of these issues without making them an issue. As the brother above said about Hooters. I had a situation when I worked in corporate america. My Sr. Director wanted to take me and a few others to lunch to celebrate a good year, or something. He suggested we go to Hooters and I responded to them that if there was any possible way, perhaps we could go somewhere else. I probably said something like, "Man, that place is too tempting for me." (Spoken in a humerous voice). Again, I can remember the response like yesterday. My boss told me that was "cool." It was good to see young men with conviction about things like that. He later told me it wasn't for him to stay away, but that he really respected me for it. I think decisions like that become opportunity to show people that there really is a difference in Christians' lives. I know this is staying from the point of the Beer T-shirt story, but sometimes I think contextualize, or whatever, too much.

I agree with Wade on the issue of legalism versus grace, but I also want to make the point that people won't get offended or turned off from the faith, if you explain things in love.

Robert

Tue Apr 22, 12:17:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Jim Paslay said...

Tim Greer said:

"Jim's reply is a classic example of the confusion on the beer issue. In his mind, beer and Playboy are essentially synonymous. Nothing could be further from the truth."

Actually I am not confused about the two. Both pornography and alcohol has claimed many lives and destroyed many families along the way. I consider alcohol abuse and the activities that lead to that abuse a blight on our culture. And I think we ought to as Christians be willing to give up alcohol for the sake of Christ. I will not turn my freedom in Christ into a license to gratify my own desires!

Tue Apr 22, 12:30:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jim, by virtue of your comment though, what you are saying is that we do have liberty!

And while medically speaking, we can maintian that circumcision is a healthier choice, Paul had some words to say to Peter in Galatians about it. Focus on the gospel, not limiting freedom.

Robert

Tue Apr 22, 12:34:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i think i would actually require liquor if i were to touch those lips...

Tue Apr 22, 12:38:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Steve said...

I can't decide whether Baptist Identity/Distictives are a subtle reimposition of The Law, just another political ploy, or the logical next step in the narrowing of our convention's ability to work together cooperatively for Christ, but they are definitely a man-made failure to behold and employ the ability God has given us to save the world and should be dropped like a hot potato.

Pls excuse the long sentence.

Tue Apr 22, 12:41:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Darryl Bridges said...

I am sure pornography and alcohol have claimed or had a negative impact on the lives of many.

I don't have the stats to prove it, but I'll bet that since the beginning of time, more lives have been lost or destroyed under the guise of forcing adherence to misguided "religious" principles.

Just a hunch . . .

Tue Apr 22, 12:43:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous traveller said...

It is interesting to me that there is almost, if not, universal agreement in the comments on this post to the fact grace should be offered to a new believer such as the one Wade describes. However, each one of us is in some ways like that young man. We are weak in some area. It may not be in wearing a beer t-shirt but in a lack of patience, anger, a misinterpretation of scripture, etc. My question is why is it that we are willing to show grace to this young man but unwilling to do so to others who are followers of Jesus that are on the journey with him but not what Father intends for them to ultimately be?

Tue Apr 22, 12:52:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Traveller,
It could be that we like to be like Paul (right or wrong)in Heb. as he addresses those who are still on milk and unable to take meat. Paul calls himself a chief of sinners, but at the same time corrects and exhorts others. Perhaps the issue boils down again to motivation...which should always be love. In love, even in our sin, I think we can discuss issues of personal sin, or preference with others, and it be okay.

Tue Apr 22, 12:59:00 PM 2008  
Blogger B Nettles said...

Wade,
I think that traveller got the point!

I'm just surprised that Bob Cleveland didn't post that first.

Tue Apr 22, 01:27:00 PM 2008  
Blogger John Moeller said...

Wade et al,

I am so saddened that Eric was never "properly" baptized. You state that you baptized him, but he was in a budwiser t-shirt when it happened. Poor soul, lost, tisk tisk.....

We all know that the first book of Baptist, chapter 4, verse 3 states, you must wear modest white clothing under the proper white robe, layered if necessary to insure we see no sinful thing. tisk, tisk,

poor Eric, he'll never qualify as a missionary......

Next thing you'll tell me is that Eric had a tattoo too....

Sarcasm over......

Keep knocking down those traditions Wade, I love hearing about how God continually uses you.....

Tue Apr 22, 01:34:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wade,
When are you going to post something that builds up all Southern Baptist.
It appears to me that you are only critical!

Here in Nashville...everyone that i know in leadership ask me what is Wades issue today.
Please for the sake of Gospel unity give it up.

In Christ
Robert I Masters

Tue Apr 22, 01:45:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When are you going to post something that builds up all Southern Baptist.
It appears to me that you are only critical!

Here in Nashville...everyone that i know in leadership ask me what is Wades issue today.
Please for the sake of Gospel unity give it up.

In Christ
Robert I Masters

Tue Apr 22, 01:45:00 PM 2008


Well, tell your SBC friends to give him some material to work with.

Tue Apr 22, 02:03:00 PM 2008  
Blogger NativeVermonter said...

Mr. Master’s,

I do think today’s post serves as a good example of lifting all SB’s up. Most of the comments seem supportive as well. C’mon, you know deep down you were actually encouraged…you just don’t want to admit it.

Hey I wasn’t hugged as a kid either.

John in St. Louis

Tue Apr 22, 02:05:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Denise said...

I remember when I was growing up in Enid that it was a horrible sin to wear pants to church. Cold, snow, sleet, didn't matter! I had to wear my slacks under my dress and then go to the fellowship hall which was a seperate building to remove my pants and then walk to the sanctuary and enter the church house as it was called then. Absolutely REDICULOUS!! Did it have anything to do with my salvation? Nope. I'd love for my older son and daughter who are not walking the walk right now come naked if it meant them hearing the word and getting back where they need to be. Boy would that shock some little old deacons ;) :) Ok maybe NOT NEKKED :)

Denise

Tue Apr 22, 02:06:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

Alan Paul and Steve,

I am not sure if either of you are Baptist or that you fully understand what a distinctive is.

Baptists may differ over Calvinism, Arminianism, Worship Styles, Bible Translations, etc., but there are cetain distinctives that be must adhered to in order to be considered truly Baptist.

You may want to read up on them here... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_Distinctives

I have no problem if you do not hold to these distinctives and are not Baptist. However, to say a Baptist Distinctive is an "idol" and needs to be "dropped like a hot potato" shows either a grave misunderstanding on your part or a willful misrepresentation against those who hold to these principles.

Tue Apr 22, 02:06:00 PM 2008  
Blogger David R. Mills said...

Nonsense - whatever happened to Matt 28 and discipleship. This went on for weeks, shame on you. What if the shirt had porn stars on it, would there have been an intervention - I think so. No won der we have so many ignorant believers, they never were discipled rightly.

Tue Apr 22, 02:11:00 PM 2008  
Blogger John Moeller said...

Joe W.

Holy smokes Batman, you hung yourself on your own Comment. According to your URL link, we should read this and see it your way... Let me take an excerpt;

Soul freedom: the soul is competent before God, and capable of making decisions in matters of faith without coercion or compulsion by any larger religious or civil body....Eric wore a budwiser shirt and God laughed. You are not allowed to make his decision for him

Church freedom: freedom of the local church from outside interference, whether government or civilian. Wade thought it was cool, so you have no right to say anything

Bible freedom: the individual is free to interpret the Bible for himself or herself, using the best tools of scholarship and biblical study available to the individual. The new convert interpreted that God was OK with his shirt based on his knowledge.

John

Tue Apr 22, 02:27:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

John,

Did you even bother to read my first comment. I have no problem, I repeat no problem with the new convert, the T-shirt, or the way Wade handled the situation.

You underscore my point further with your comment. For someone to say that people who hold to Baptist Distinctives are idol worshippers and that the disctinctives need to be dropped like a hot potato is completely ludicrous.

Tue Apr 22, 02:43:00 PM 2008  
Blogger John Moeller said...

Joe W.

explain it to me then. what is this distinctive of the Baptist that you are referring to then. The conversation is about a budwiser shirt and Alan's comment was about eating at Hooters. If it isn't either of those, then what are you referring to?

I would ask; If I can disagree on Calvinism, then why can't I disagree on drinking, shirts, PPl, etc....

Tue Apr 22, 03:02:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Tom Parker said...

david r. mills:

This blog has nothing to do with porn.

Tue Apr 22, 03:12:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

what a 'great' proposal for promoting Baptists to put super-glue and bandaids on their mouths so they can't disciple new Christians...no wonder our churches are becoming 1 mile wide and a 1/2" deep...

Tue Apr 22, 03:13:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

John,

Sorry, but I feel like I am talking to my 8 year old. :)

One more time, here we go.

I pointed out in my initial comment (9:21 am) that this was a great post by Wade. However, I was troubled by his introduction. I noted that Wade seemed to be trying to tie the "Baptist Identity" movement (if there is such a thing) to legalism and cultic behavior.

Alan Paul chimed in at 12:12pm with a comment directed to me... "Joe W... I think Wade needs to continue to take shots at the Baptist distinctives and keep shooting until they have been demolished in the way all idols should be."

Then... Steve wrote these words and 12:41pm... "I can't decide whether Baptist Identity/Distictives are a subtle reimposition of The Law, just another political ploy, or the logical next step in the narrowing of our convention's ability to work together cooperatively for Christ, but they are definitely a man-made failure to behold and employ the ability God has given us to save the world and should be dropped like a hot potato."

Thus (and with success so far), I have tried to show that there is no corelation between Baptist Distinctives / Baptist Identity and the quote... "Laying down of the law".

My point is this... those who hold to Baptistic believes are not idol worshipers or cultic, our Baptist Heritage does not need to be dropped like a hot potato, and people need to learn to read the actual comments without bringing their preconceived ideas about a person from the day or week before to the conversation.

Tue Apr 22, 03:32:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Only By His Grace said...

Wade,

Some keep changing the story so they can sidedoor attack you; for shame on them.

The story reminds me of an incident some ten or twelve years ago.

On a Sunday morning I was standing behind the pulpit before church started when a youth carrying a Sonic drink walked into the auditorium. I noticed her before Sunday School, but had not met her. I turned to walk out of the pulpit to go introduce myself when a deacon sitting in the mid section literally hollered out, "Young lady, you can take that cup of whatever you are drinking and get out of the auditorium. We do not allow food and drink in this sanctuary!"

She was caught much like a deer is caught in the headlights of a car, too petrified to move. She turned to almost run out of the auditorium. I turned to the deacon and said just as loud to him as he hollered at her, "B___, I would be ashamed of myself if I were you." I then caught up to the young lady. I took her to our new Youth Pastor, told him what happened. He and his wife not only sat with her during worship, but they had her over to their college apartment for Sunday dinner.

The young lady came to know the Lord later that year at Falls Creek. The deacon never changed.

Phil in Norman.

Tue Apr 22, 03:40:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous John Fariss said...

One of the elder deacons at our (Southern Baptist) church, who is also a parking lot greeter, was told by another senior citizen that if a male showed up wearing an earring, he should "snatch it out" rather than allow a man so dressed to enter the building. I'm sure that would have gone over quite well; fortunantly, he had enough maturity in Christ to laugh such a suggestion off. The same senior (not the deacon) met with me a few months ago to demand that we enact a dress code, prohibiting jeans that were either tight or had holes, bare shoulders and midriffs, and various items of attire that he considered "provocative." I told him that if he would show me where the Bible approved of dress codes, especially the New Testament, I would recommend it. Funny: he never got back with me with any of the passages he was absolutely sure were there. I found out later that most of his anger was directed toward one young lady, a new Christian and a recent emmigrant from eastern Europe, whose clothing tended to be more European than most of the rest of us. Guess what? She has toned down her attire, but not because anyone in the church made rules and regulations, but because through her own discipleship and growth in the Lord, she decided to, her and the Lord! When we trust God and give Him room to work, it's amazing what He will do, as Wade points out.

Just a word to a few of you who have commented: beverage alcohol (beer or in any other form) does NOT equal pornography, lust, or institutions/businesses organized around the promotion of either. At least, such is my position; as I told that senior, show me the Bible verse that says it does, and I will support it. And I'm with Paul, Wade, and dwmiii: given the choice of kissing any of those lips or having a beer or a bourbon--I'd gladly belly up to the bar! (Which, by the way, I quit doing about a year after I became a Christian, not because of any man-made rule, but because of the Holy Spirit's leadership.)

Tue Apr 22, 03:42:00 PM 2008  
Blogger Joe W. said...

And... I believe I understand how Wade felt in this situation. For those critical of the way Wade handled this situation, you need to take a step back and realize that this was a new convert. This young man was not open rebellion.

A couple of months back we had a man attend a service in a white tank top, covered in tattoos, and wearing sun glasses. He sat through the choir service, all the while keeping his sunglasses on. I had a member of our church ask me if I wanted him to make the man remove the sunglasses before I preached. I said... absolutely not.

If you are more concerned about black sunglasses than you are black souls, you are in as bad a shape as they are. (Or Beer T-shirts)

Remember... we are talking about new converts and visitors...

Tue Apr 22, 03:42:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous John Fariss said...

Addendium to my earlier comment: different churches are organized differently, and here I am speaking of the very real and "subliminal" criteria rather than what is typically found in church constitutions and by-laws. For some churches, the principal is "when you look like us, you can be one of us." One church I served was a white-collar church in a blue collar neighborhood; for them, that meant hourly workers and unskilled laborers should go elsewhere, whereas supervisors and mill owners were welcome--and Hispanic migrants and African Americans were given directions (literally) to the nearest Catholic or African-American church. For others, it is "when you behave like us, you can be one of us." This is equivilent to saying, "after you clean up your own act, you can join and get right with God--but first you have to change yourself!" I once served that church too: one Sunday morning a single mother with several unruly stairstep children came in. And one little blue-haired old lady said to another in a stage whisper, "If she can't make those children behave any better than that, she should stay home. Surprize, surprize, surprize: that is exactly what she did.

Then again: the churches I served prior to where I am at now were all dysfunctional. No surprize there.

Sort of like an old joke in my hometown: strangers pulled up at a service station and asked, "Where is the Church of God?" The old man there replied, "Well. . . there's the Baptist Church, that's the church of the Weaver's; the Methodist Church, that's the church of the Wren's; the Presbyterian Church, that's the church of the Bliss's; the Catholic Church, that's the church of the deStaffano's. But I don't think we have a Church of God's in this town." May God save us from becomming that joke.

Tue Apr 22, 04:07:00 PM 2008  
Blogger John Moeller said...

Joe,

Maybe I am only 8, but I don't recall ever reading one of your comments that stood out, or have any preconceived prejudices about you at all.

I read your comment, thought about it, and said; Hmm, Joe is saying that some of the commenter's must not be Baptist because they have different "distinctive's" than he does.

I read Alan and Steve's comments and all of yours..., I agree distinctives are the foundation of Baptist, I'll give an example. A distinctive is Baptism by immersion. I'll give you that all day.

A tradition (not a distinctive) is that women wear dresses and men dress "respectable" then they go to church.

I go to a thriving church where Harley riders show up every week in chaps. Teens wear baggies and t-shirts with writing on them. Some even have piercings and gages in their ears. We just sent one teen to seminary with 3 inch gages in his ears. (look out PP) These are not new converts, they are fine Christians who are just comfortable with who God made them.

Is that me, NO! I am the typical conservative. Will I push my traditions on them, NO! I want everyone to know the Lord, not just people who look and act like me.

My point is; the way I read the comments, we are all talking about old traditions which are excluding the multitudes who need Jesus and calling them distinctives of our faith.

I don't see tattoos, piercings, exposed mid-drifts, and the like as open rebellion against anything. It's just the 2008 way of life.

If we go with your train of thought... After a new convert gets "trained" they will need to remove the tattoos, the piercings, sell the Harley, settle down and conform.

I don't see it your way.

Tue Apr 22, 04:21:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wade,
You wrote "Some Southern Baptist leaders believe that the way to stop believers from straying into sin, or to keep church members living lives consistent with personal holiness, or to establish churches with a worthy 'Baptist Identity,' is to lay out for Christians 'the law' of proper behavior."

Could you point me to specific Southern Baptist leaders that openly advocate such an approach to Christianity? Your post implies that they don't believe in grace, but instead advocate a works approach to salvation based upon your story of the troubled young man that was saved. Do you really believe that these "Baptist Identity" folks would advocate an approach any different to Eric than the one you took just because they think it is wrong for Christians (especially leaders) to drink?
You can be a teetotaler, refuse to condone worldliness, and still show grace and patience with a new believer that is confused about living a consistent Chritian life. As a matter of fact I was saved in a very conservative, "Baptist Identity" church...and was rougher around the edges than Eric. That church loved me, prayed for me, shared their homes with me, AND gradually taught me that there was a better way to glorify God with my life.

Again, could you just give me one example of a "Baptist Idenity" guy that would say your approach to this baby Christian was wrong (and show evidence).

Thanks,
A Simple Student at SBTS

Tue Apr 22, 04:40:00 PM 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wade,
This post would have been ten times better had you left out the not so subtle dig at those "Baptist Identity" folks you so vehemently disagree with.

Tue Apr 22, 04:43:00 PM 2008  
Blogger volfan007 said...

i guess i'm one of those "baptist distinctive" folks, and i agree with wade's post. it was a good one.

after i got saved, i would have been one of those long haired, rock and roller guys wearing "lynyrd skynyrd" t-shirts and "kansas" t-shirts. i drove to church listening to ac/dc and journey...and, i would open the door with the music jamming before i turned off the engine, too...so that deacon brown and sister smith could hear it.

one thing though....i quit drinking alcohol and smoking weed immediately after my conversion. the Lord delivered me from it. also, i quit cussing immediately. and, you know what else? i started loving people at that church, and i started loving to hear about Jesus.

wade, i appreciate that yall took it easy on that young man, and you let the Lord bring him along. that was a good thing to do.

david

Tue Apr 22, 05:15:00 PM 2008  
OpenID CmlCros said...

Jim,
Beer is like porn? Why don't we attack gluttony? At the next convention look and see how many pot bellies you see. Let's attack pride and then ask why leaders in the convention don't want toactually