A Biblical Primer on Women in Ministry (Part VII)
This is the seventh and final part of a series on 'Women in Ministry,' written by a recent graduate of Southwestern Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Later this week I will reveal the identity of this man and direct you to where you can read more of his writings. As I have stated before, I do not agree with every view held by this Southern Baptist writer, but I find it refreshing when a person with a high view of the sacred text defends his egalitarian position with such skill. My point in posting this series is to remind all Southern Baptists that there are conservatives who disagree on various interpretations of the sacred text, but it should not disrupt our fellowship around Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The previous posts include:
Part 1: History and Confessions
Part 2: Priesthood of the Believer
Part 3: Spiritual Gifts
Part 4: Offices in the Church
Part 5: Ministries
Part 6: Objections to Women in Ministry Considered
Now, the last in a series of seven posts:
Part Seven: Creation and Conclusions
Grounded in Creation
Some who would continue to use 1 Timothy 2:12 to ban women from positions of leadership say that this text “is grounded in creation” (that Adam was created before Eve) and therefore is binding for all time.
Verses 13-15 of Timothy has confused many scholars, both complementarians and egalitarians. Is Paul arguing that all women from Eve till today have been easier to deceive than men? If this is true, it would appear that Paul is guilty of reading into the text of Gen. 3 something that is not there. To draw such a conclusion from this text would be improper and illogical. What Gen. 3 justifies the opinion that women are more easily deceived than men? The passage only teaches that Eve was in fact deceived. It nowhere asserts that this weakness has become endemic to the feminine sex.
Any proper interpreter who tried to prove such a disturbing point from an isolated occurrence would be rightly criticized for committing a serious logical error. For instance, it would be as easy to argue that all first-born sons are violent because Cain was. In both cases, a universal trait is being attributed to an entire class of people on the basis of a single incident, without any logical or exegetical reason.
Possibly Paul had a special revelation indicating that women are more easily deceived, but this does not appear to be the case. Rather than appeal to a revelation that he has received, he appeals to Genesis 3 for his evidence, and expects us to understand what he sees there. Thus we would expect to see him exhibit hermeneutical tools to derive meaning from the text.
Furthermore, how could Paul adduce the principle of deception-proneness for women from Gen. 3 when it occurred before the fall of mankind? If women had innately the flaw of deception proneness, then it would seem that they had this flaw by virtue of the way God created them.
Therefore, according to traditional thinking, Eve would seem to be the product of a flawed design by God. But God said that His creation was “very good.” These problems disappear, however, if we conclude that Paul is not arguing that women are more easily deceived than men.
Many egalitarians, Kroeger in particular, have argued that the sitz im leben of the Ephesian church in 1 Timothy focuses on the heresies that had crept into the church. They argue that these heresies were incipient Gnosticisms being taught by the women of the church. Gnosticism and other heresies included many erroneous beliefs about sex and creation. Some Gnostics taught that truly spiritual women should not marry and have children. Others taught that, since matter is evil and spirit is good, what a person did with the body was irrelevant to what went on in the inner spirit. To these Gnostics, sexual immorality was acceptable and could even be pleasing to God. Some Gnostics said that Eve was created before Adam and that she enlightened him by her superior knowledge. If this scenario is the case it would explain why Paul admonishes women teachers and states that Adam was formed first, Eve was deceived, and women will be preserved through childbearing. This scenario may be correct but it appears to be impossible to know for sure.
Isolated, the “rib story” of Genesis 2 does appear, at first glance, to subordinate woman to man; but we do not have this story in isolation. We have it only as it appears in Genesis as a whole. There are at least two creation stories in Genesis, the rib story in Chapter 2 being enveloped by a newer story in 1:1-2:4a, echoed in 5:1. The story in Chapter One is free of any subordination of male and female to the other, and this story gives new perspective on the rib story.
But what then is the purpose of the rib story? The self-evident fact that man is birthed from woman had led to the existence many fertility cults in the ancient world. These pagan religions worshipped mother goddesses and feminine nature deities as mother of all that lives. While still denigrating women, these cults stated the matriarchal view that woman was first and the creator of all the living. This belief clashes with the Israelite belief in primo geniture. In antiquity it was widely held that chronological priority meant superiority. In the first chapters of Genesis, the author or authors are refuting many of these pagan gods and goddesses and simultaneously refuting their creation stories. In Genesis 1, God creates the world not by an epic struggle like the gods in the Enuma Elish but by His deliberate, creative word.
Furthermore, the sun and moon are not regarded as gods, only lights in the sky that God as created and fixed. In Genesis 2, the superiority of woman is refuted by showing her source is from Adam. But in 3:20, the superiority of man is refuted by showing that Eve is the mother of all the living. In no way is this story intended to exhibit superiority of the man and the subordination of the woman. The story is intended to show how God created mankind male and female and how he created them equal. We can see this clearly in Chapter 2. Verse 24 is in two parts, the first part as matriarchal as the rib story is patriarchal, “For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and cleave to his wife.” The second part overcomes the patriarchal and matriarchal perspectives, “and the two become one flesh.” This gives new direction to the rib-story, explaining the drive of the sexes toward one another, this taking priority over even a man’s relationship with his parents. This is also the reason why man has authority of the woman’s body and the reason why woman has authority over the man’s body.
It was the effect of the fall of mankind that led to the subordination of women to men. This is a “curse” that was redeemed for us in Christ. We might expect the unbelieving world to hold to the subordination of women, but for believers in Christ to hold to such a view is unbiblical. If we are to say that a woman must continue to bear the brunt of the fall, we might as well deny a woman’s access to drugs that lessen the labor pains of childbirth. We then should remove all technology that lessens man’s toiling of the ground.
When Paul alludes to the creation story he is not referring to man’s superiority over woman but man’s equality with woman. If we look back at Galatians 3:28, when Paul says “neither male nor female” not “man nor women,” he is referring back to the Genesis 1 story and mankind’s sexual equality.
Conclusion
In conclusion, it should be clear through history, experience, reason and, all-importantly, Scripture, women are both permitted and encouraged by God to fill any “office” or role that is mentioned in Scripture. Furthermore, it should be evident that despite the lack of recognition given by the church through ordination, the Holy Spirit continues to empower women to serve God in the church in all roles and “offices.”
Complementarians argue that women cannot serve in the ordained office because the pastorate entails a leadership function that is appropriate only to men. In addition, they oppose the ordination of women on the basis of the teaching authority bound up with the pastoral office. Their difficulty here is not that teaching itself is inappropriate for women. Indeed, complementarians know that the Bible encourages women to teach in certain circumstances (see, for example, Tit 2:3-5), and some acknowledge that women can even teach men. Rather, they do not allow women to teach when it violates the so-called biblical principle of male leadership and female subordination. Hence complementarians conclude that the Bible prohibits a woman from publicly teaching men in the religious realm and exercising authority over men in the Christian community. Piper and Grudem write:
“We would say that the teaching inappropriate for a woman is the teaching of men in settings or ways that dishonor the calling of men to bear the primary responsibility for teaching and leadership. This primary responsibility is to be carried by pastors or elders. Therefore we think it is God’s will that only men bear the responsibility for this office.”
Complementarians bar women from the ordained office in the church because it encompasses the authority to teach men. Egalitarians, in contrast, find nothing in Scripture which prohibits women from exercising this prerogative. They also point out the absurdity or permitting women to teach impressionable children and other women but not men who should possess the spiritual acumen to discern heretical statements.
One of the problems that face those who would interpret the Scriptures as forbidding the ordination of women is that no such prohibition is directly made. In each example sited in Scripture the purpose of the verse is concerning an issue unrelated to the topic of the ordination of women. As evidence of the Bible’s prohibition against women’s ordination, at best the prohibition is implied by default.
When studying our history it becomes readily apparent that during times of great Baptist expansion and spiritual awakenings, women inevitably become active in preaching, teaching, and leading the assemblies of believers. It is only during spiritually dead and inactive periods when Baptists fall into extreme liberalism and conservatism that we see a rush to diminish the roles of women in ministry.
We see growth both in spirituality and converts corresponding with a greater role for women during the 17th century, the New Connection, the First and Second Great Awakenings, and the mid-twentieth century. Likewise, we see a decrease in converts and spirituality corresponding with a lesser role for women at other times. This is not to say that the roles for women in ministry are a cause of spiritual rise and decline: it is a symptom.
Success may not be a criterion for sanctifying a task and making it right, but success in ministry can help us to see where and when our interpretations of Scripture may be at fault. When the disciples saw that the Holy Spirit had come to the Gentiles (Acts 11), they were confronted with an experience that made them question their interpretation of the Old Testament and their hermeneutical traditions. The Scriptures were not at fault but there interpretations were. Atheists often laugh at the Bible when it speaks of the four corners of the earth as if it suggests a flat earth, but at the same time use the word “sunrise” as if the sun actually rose. When scientists began to question the Ptolemaic model of the solar system, many Bible-believing Christians yelled charges of “heresy,” saying that the Bible plainly spoke about a geocentric solar system. When new experiences contradicted this interpretation, Christian scholars went back to the Bible, reexamined the Scriptures and came to the conclusion that the Bible nowhere makes the claim that the earth is the center of the solar system. No new form of exegesis uncovered this fact of God’s creation from the Scriptures; experience as a hermeneutical tool (among others) furthered our understanding of how magnificent a universe God created and how amazingly perfect is the revelation of the Bible.
Yet proponents from both sides of the controversy are often guilty of using the question of women in ministry as a “litmus test” of conservative Christian orthodoxy. The expanding gulf over women’s roles is likewise evident in recent decisions by several churches to rescind their previous openness to women serving in lay leadership roles and in professional ministry staff positions. Some groups have enacted stricter limitations on women than at any previous time in their history. New directives prohibit women from chairing committees, teaching mixed gender adult classes, serving on the governing bodies of local congregations or being considered for nay positions on pastoral staff. This stinks in the nostrils of God.
Dr. McBeth wrote in 1979:
“If Southern Baptists wanted to arrive at an official position on ordination of women, it is doubtful they could do so. Southern Baptists accept no ultimate authority this side of the Bible and the lordship of Christ. But those who accept the Bible as the authoritative Word of God may yet disagree about its interpretation. Southern Baptists have no official creed or list of accepted doctrines and practices to which all must subscribe. The Southern Baptist Convention is a voluntary body made up of elected representatives (messengers) from churches that voluntarily cooperate in missions, evangelism, and Christian education. The Convention cannot speak officially for the churches; neither can the churches speak for the Convention.
In 1925 and again in 1963 the Convention voted to adopt a doctrinal statement of “Baptist Faith and Message.” However, this is a confession of faith and not an official creed. It was designed as a statement of what a group of Baptists believe and practice at a given time in our history. In no way can it replace or supplement the authority of the Bible, nor was it intended.
This means that any Southern Baptist individual or group has perfect freedom, under the lordship of Christ and their liberty to interpret Scripture, to favor or oppose the ordination of women as they feel the facts warrant. However, such individuals and groups have no freedom to impose their views and practices upon all Southern Baptists or to announce their preference as “the” Southern Baptist position. Ordainers and nonordainers can and should be in full fellowship among us.”
Finally, the current Biblical interpretation concerning women in ministry held by the majority of scholars has moved from a severely limited role in no office to a highly active role in all offices except one. This recent progression suggests that the tide of scholarly influence is on the side of the egalitarians.
Part 1: History and Confessions
Part 2: Priesthood of the Believer
Part 3: Spiritual Gifts
Part 4: Offices in the Church
Part 5: Ministries
Part 6: Objections to Women in Ministry Considered
Now, the last in a series of seven posts:
Part Seven: Creation and Conclusions
Grounded in Creation
Some who would continue to use 1 Timothy 2:12 to ban women from positions of leadership say that this text “is grounded in creation” (that Adam was created before Eve) and therefore is binding for all time.
Verses 13-15 of Timothy has confused many scholars, both complementarians and egalitarians. Is Paul arguing that all women from Eve till today have been easier to deceive than men? If this is true, it would appear that Paul is guilty of reading into the text of Gen. 3 something that is not there. To draw such a conclusion from this text would be improper and illogical. What Gen. 3 justifies the opinion that women are more easily deceived than men? The passage only teaches that Eve was in fact deceived. It nowhere asserts that this weakness has become endemic to the feminine sex.
Any proper interpreter who tried to prove such a disturbing point from an isolated occurrence would be rightly criticized for committing a serious logical error. For instance, it would be as easy to argue that all first-born sons are violent because Cain was. In both cases, a universal trait is being attributed to an entire class of people on the basis of a single incident, without any logical or exegetical reason.
Possibly Paul had a special revelation indicating that women are more easily deceived, but this does not appear to be the case. Rather than appeal to a revelation that he has received, he appeals to Genesis 3 for his evidence, and expects us to understand what he sees there. Thus we would expect to see him exhibit hermeneutical tools to derive meaning from the text.
Furthermore, how could Paul adduce the principle of deception-proneness for women from Gen. 3 when it occurred before the fall of mankind? If women had innately the flaw of deception proneness, then it would seem that they had this flaw by virtue of the way God created them.
Therefore, according to traditional thinking, Eve would seem to be the product of a flawed design by God. But God said that His creation was “very good.” These problems disappear, however, if we conclude that Paul is not arguing that women are more easily deceived than men.
Many egalitarians, Kroeger in particular, have argued that the sitz im leben of the Ephesian church in 1 Timothy focuses on the heresies that had crept into the church. They argue that these heresies were incipient Gnosticisms being taught by the women of the church. Gnosticism and other heresies included many erroneous beliefs about sex and creation. Some Gnostics taught that truly spiritual women should not marry and have children. Others taught that, since matter is evil and spirit is good, what a person did with the body was irrelevant to what went on in the inner spirit. To these Gnostics, sexual immorality was acceptable and could even be pleasing to God. Some Gnostics said that Eve was created before Adam and that she enlightened him by her superior knowledge. If this scenario is the case it would explain why Paul admonishes women teachers and states that Adam was formed first, Eve was deceived, and women will be preserved through childbearing. This scenario may be correct but it appears to be impossible to know for sure.
Isolated, the “rib story” of Genesis 2 does appear, at first glance, to subordinate woman to man; but we do not have this story in isolation. We have it only as it appears in Genesis as a whole. There are at least two creation stories in Genesis, the rib story in Chapter 2 being enveloped by a newer story in 1:1-2:4a, echoed in 5:1. The story in Chapter One is free of any subordination of male and female to the other, and this story gives new perspective on the rib story.
But what then is the purpose of the rib story? The self-evident fact that man is birthed from woman had led to the existence many fertility cults in the ancient world. These pagan religions worshipped mother goddesses and feminine nature deities as mother of all that lives. While still denigrating women, these cults stated the matriarchal view that woman was first and the creator of all the living. This belief clashes with the Israelite belief in primo geniture. In antiquity it was widely held that chronological priority meant superiority. In the first chapters of Genesis, the author or authors are refuting many of these pagan gods and goddesses and simultaneously refuting their creation stories. In Genesis 1, God creates the world not by an epic struggle like the gods in the Enuma Elish but by His deliberate, creative word.
Furthermore, the sun and moon are not regarded as gods, only lights in the sky that God as created and fixed. In Genesis 2, the superiority of woman is refuted by showing her source is from Adam. But in 3:20, the superiority of man is refuted by showing that Eve is the mother of all the living. In no way is this story intended to exhibit superiority of the man and the subordination of the woman. The story is intended to show how God created mankind male and female and how he created them equal. We can see this clearly in Chapter 2. Verse 24 is in two parts, the first part as matriarchal as the rib story is patriarchal, “For this cause a man shall leave father and mother and cleave to his wife.” The second part overcomes the patriarchal and matriarchal perspectives, “and the two become one flesh.” This gives new direction to the rib-story, explaining the drive of the sexes toward one another, this taking priority over even a man’s relationship with his parents. This is also the reason why man has authority of the woman’s body and the reason why woman has authority over the man’s body.
It was the effect of the fall of mankind that led to the subordination of women to men. This is a “curse” that was redeemed for us in Christ. We might expect the unbelieving world to hold to the subordination of women, but for believers in Christ to hold to such a view is unbiblical. If we are to say that a woman must continue to bear the brunt of the fall, we might as well deny a woman’s access to drugs that lessen the labor pains of childbirth. We then should remove all technology that lessens man’s toiling of the ground.
When Paul alludes to the creation story he is not referring to man’s superiority over woman but man’s equality with woman. If we look back at Galatians 3:28, when Paul says “neither male nor female” not “man nor women,” he is referring back to the Genesis 1 story and mankind’s sexual equality.
Conclusion
In conclusion, it should be clear through history, experience, reason and, all-importantly, Scripture, women are both permitted and encouraged by God to fill any “office” or role that is mentioned in Scripture. Furthermore, it should be evident that despite the lack of recognition given by the church through ordination, the Holy Spirit continues to empower women to serve God in the church in all roles and “offices.”
Complementarians argue that women cannot serve in the ordained office because the pastorate entails a leadership function that is appropriate only to men. In addition, they oppose the ordination of women on the basis of the teaching authority bound up with the pastoral office. Their difficulty here is not that teaching itself is inappropriate for women. Indeed, complementarians know that the Bible encourages women to teach in certain circumstances (see, for example, Tit 2:3-5), and some acknowledge that women can even teach men. Rather, they do not allow women to teach when it violates the so-called biblical principle of male leadership and female subordination. Hence complementarians conclude that the Bible prohibits a woman from publicly teaching men in the religious realm and exercising authority over men in the Christian community. Piper and Grudem write:
“We would say that the teaching inappropriate for a woman is the teaching of men in settings or ways that dishonor the calling of men to bear the primary responsibility for teaching and leadership. This primary responsibility is to be carried by pastors or elders. Therefore we think it is God’s will that only men bear the responsibility for this office.”
Complementarians bar women from the ordained office in the church because it encompasses the authority to teach men. Egalitarians, in contrast, find nothing in Scripture which prohibits women from exercising this prerogative. They also point out the absurdity or permitting women to teach impressionable children and other women but not men who should possess the spiritual acumen to discern heretical statements.
One of the problems that face those who would interpret the Scriptures as forbidding the ordination of women is that no such prohibition is directly made. In each example sited in Scripture the purpose of the verse is concerning an issue unrelated to the topic of the ordination of women. As evidence of the Bible’s prohibition against women’s ordination, at best the prohibition is implied by default.
When studying our history it becomes readily apparent that during times of great Baptist expansion and spiritual awakenings, women inevitably become active in preaching, teaching, and leading the assemblies of believers. It is only during spiritually dead and inactive periods when Baptists fall into extreme liberalism and conservatism that we see a rush to diminish the roles of women in ministry.
We see growth both in spirituality and converts corresponding with a greater role for women during the 17th century, the New Connection, the First and Second Great Awakenings, and the mid-twentieth century. Likewise, we see a decrease in converts and spirituality corresponding with a lesser role for women at other times. This is not to say that the roles for women in ministry are a cause of spiritual rise and decline: it is a symptom.
Success may not be a criterion for sanctifying a task and making it right, but success in ministry can help us to see where and when our interpretations of Scripture may be at fault. When the disciples saw that the Holy Spirit had come to the Gentiles (Acts 11), they were confronted with an experience that made them question their interpretation of the Old Testament and their hermeneutical traditions. The Scriptures were not at fault but there interpretations were. Atheists often laugh at the Bible when it speaks of the four corners of the earth as if it suggests a flat earth, but at the same time use the word “sunrise” as if the sun actually rose. When scientists began to question the Ptolemaic model of the solar system, many Bible-believing Christians yelled charges of “heresy,” saying that the Bible plainly spoke about a geocentric solar system. When new experiences contradicted this interpretation, Christian scholars went back to the Bible, reexamined the Scriptures and came to the conclusion that the Bible nowhere makes the claim that the earth is the center of the solar system. No new form of exegesis uncovered this fact of God’s creation from the Scriptures; experience as a hermeneutical tool (among others) furthered our understanding of how magnificent a universe God created and how amazingly perfect is the revelation of the Bible.
Yet proponents from both sides of the controversy are often guilty of using the question of women in ministry as a “litmus test” of conservative Christian orthodoxy. The expanding gulf over women’s roles is likewise evident in recent decisions by several churches to rescind their previous openness to women serving in lay leadership roles and in professional ministry staff positions. Some groups have enacted stricter limitations on women than at any previous time in their history. New directives prohibit women from chairing committees, teaching mixed gender adult classes, serving on the governing bodies of local congregations or being considered for nay positions on pastoral staff. This stinks in the nostrils of God.
Dr. McBeth wrote in 1979:
“If Southern Baptists wanted to arrive at an official position on ordination of women, it is doubtful they could do so. Southern Baptists accept no ultimate authority this side of the Bible and the lordship of Christ. But those who accept the Bible as the authoritative Word of God may yet disagree about its interpretation. Southern Baptists have no official creed or list of accepted doctrines and practices to which all must subscribe. The Southern Baptist Convention is a voluntary body made up of elected representatives (messengers) from churches that voluntarily cooperate in missions, evangelism, and Christian education. The Convention cannot speak officially for the churches; neither can the churches speak for the Convention.
In 1925 and again in 1963 the Convention voted to adopt a doctrinal statement of “Baptist Faith and Message.” However, this is a confession of faith and not an official creed. It was designed as a statement of what a group of Baptists believe and practice at a given time in our history. In no way can it replace or supplement the authority of the Bible, nor was it intended.
This means that any Southern Baptist individual or group has perfect freedom, under the lordship of Christ and their liberty to interpret Scripture, to favor or oppose the ordination of women as they feel the facts warrant. However, such individuals and groups have no freedom to impose their views and practices upon all Southern Baptists or to announce their preference as “the” Southern Baptist position. Ordainers and nonordainers can and should be in full fellowship among us.”
Finally, the current Biblical interpretation concerning women in ministry held by the majority of scholars has moved from a severely limited role in no office to a highly active role in all offices except one. This recent progression suggests that the tide of scholarly influence is on the side of the egalitarians.


134 Comments:
Dr. McBeth had the objective findings of his research to stand upon when he wrote his text on Baptist history--though I suspect those findings were not well-received by all. Dr. McBeth, though, was one SWBTS professor--of few--who was bold enough during the early 1990's to tell our class, "Students, this denominational fight isn't yours. Put an end to it by not joining it."
That was good advice then--and it is now.
Actually in earlier times women were denied pain relief during childbirth because of this scripture, to the point of persecuting any who did somehow obtain such relief. But I do not know of any record of men not seeking easier ways to till the ground.
One need look no further for findings of Dr. McBeth (an excellent teacher and a wonderful person) not being well-received than the fact that he was commissioned to write a history of the Sunday School Board, but when it was finished and presented for publication it was suppressed (and never published) by those in power at the time he finished it. Could this have been due to a change in power between the time he was commissioned and the time he finished it?
Susie
Wade, thanks for this series.
I remember a discussion back in high school about Eve being deceived. It was interesting to note that in Paul's view Adam was not deceived. Rather, he partook with full understanding of what he was doing. Is that any better basis for handling authority than any supposed greater inclination to be deceived?
It is amazing to me how many do not recognize the Genesis 3 comments regarding male authority are in consequence of sin, not God's original purpose & plan.
McBeth's book came out prior to the use of our BF&M2000 as a creedal instrument of doctrinal accountability. Too bad McBeth's words no longer apply as to creedal instrumentation in the SBC.
Brother Wade,
The author of this piece writes; In the first chapters of Genesis, the author or authors are refuting many of these pagan gods and goddesses and simultaneously refuting their creation stories. Would that author be the Jehovist? Or would those authors be the Elohist and Jehovist?
Nothing against the author of your posts here, but it does speak to a basic flaw in the research. It appears that your author is operating on the JEDP theory when interpreting Scripture. It also seems that your author does not hold to the Sufficiency of Scripture as Jesus clearly stated that Moses was the author of the first 11 chapters of Genesis.
Blessings,
Tim
Tim,
Jesus' declaration is not nearly so definitive as you want to take it. Authorship was not viewed the same way we view it today. That said, he is simply setting the issue of authorship aside for the matter of his paper. His comment is essentially: "I am not getting into the authorship issue, as that would be off-topic and irrelevant for the discussion at hand."
Guilt by association to discredit an opposing viewpoint does not address the issues at hand.
Guilt by association to discredit an opposing viewpoint does not address the issues at hand.
Fri Apr 25, 08:58:00 AM 2008
That is all they have and know it. It is one reason we are seeing a complete focus on this issue, making it a PRIMARY doctrine by drawing HUMAN parallels with man's authority over women and eternal subordination of Jesus within the Trinity.
"What Gen. 3 justifies the opinion that women are more easily deceived than men? The passage only teaches that Eve was in fact deceived. It nowhere asserts that this weakness has become endemic to the feminine sex."
Using this logic for interpretation, wouldn't the same be true of men, then. Men are more willfull sinners than women? :o)
At the conclusion, this post states, "This recent progression suggests that the tide of scholarly influence is on the side of the egalitarians."
It is equally, if not more, probable that cultural and political developments in Western Culture continue to have an influence on the thinking of all people in our society, and that these developments are now impacting even fundamentalist Christianity.
Scholarship, however objective it may claim to be, is never free from the culture in which it exists.
That observation doesn't really solve the questions addressed by this post. But it is a truth that should be recognized when we enter the debates on this issue.
Louis
Brother Chris,
You seem to miss my point trying to defend yours. My point is that the author of the paper clearly holds that the JDEP theory as a relevant theory of authorship. By doing so it negates the words of Jesus. Jesus held to the writings of Moses and also referenced items in the first 11 chapters.
The author of the papers seems to argue from a flawed understanding of the Sufficiency of Scripture if the JDEP theory is given credence as one that believes in the infallibility of Scripture.
Blessings,
Tim
"You seem to miss my point trying to defend yours. My point is that the author of the paper clearly holds that the JDEP theory as a relevant theory of authorship. By doing so it negates the words of Jesus. Jesus held to the writings of Moses and also referenced items in the first 11 chapters."
You got all that from this ONE sentence:
"In the first chapters of Genesis, the author or authors are refuting many of these pagan gods and goddesses and simultaneously refuting their creation stories."
That ONE sentence tells you the writer of this post does not believe Jesus' Words in scripture?
Wade, I hope we can ask the writer if that is so.
Lucy
Tim,
The paper does not mention JDEP. There are other theories of authorship that include the option of Genesis being the product of a community of faith under inspiration of the Holy Spirit aside from the JDEP source criticism. From an academic standpoint, he is simply not taking a position on that discussion in order to stay on his elected topic.
"Jesus held to the writings of Moses and also referenced items in the first 11 chapters."
I just searched for "Moses" in the gospels. Yes, Jesus accepted a link between Moses and the Torah. He also referred to Genesis accounts in chapters 1-11. What has that to do with Mosaic authorship or JDEP source criticism? The only reference I find where Jesus mentions Moses along the lines of authorship is Luke 12:26, "In the book of Moses..." We speak of two books of Samuel, even if Samuel died before the ending of the first. Other Jews and disciples in John 1:45 regard Moses as an author of at least some portion of Scripture. Jesus does not seem to go beyond that revelation was given through Moses.
Are you saying that JDEP theory invalidates acceptance of the Bible as a trustworthy record of God's revelation?
"It is equally, if not more, probable that cultural and political developments in Western Culture continue to have an influence on the thinking of all people in our society, and that these developments are now impacting even fundamentalist Christianity.
Scholarship, however objective it may claim to be, is never free from the culture in which it exists. "
Louis, 'Culture' IMPLEMENTED Gen 3 as a command even AFTER the Cross. Gen 3 is not a curse nor a command. It is a consequence of sin.
Our sinful hearts (culture) has implemented Gen 3 since the fall.
"Culture" up until a almost a hundred years ago, saw women as inferior and easily deceived ergo their status in society. Culture interpreted scripture for 6,000 years.
There are excesses in every shift of thinking but to imply that we are now interpreting scripture culturally on this issue is ridiculous.
A woman could be executed for taking a pain killer during childbirth back in the 1700's because of Gen 3. Was that 'culture' interpreting scripture?
Lucy
Tim Rogers:
You say "It also seems that your author does not hold to the Sufficiency of Scripture as Jesus clearly stated that Moses was the author of the first 11 chapters of Genesis."
Why not attack the author the following ways by your saying:
the author is a heretic
the author does not believe in inerrancy--this one works really well
the author does not believe the Bible
I have been a SBC for 34 years but I am very tired of the scorch earth strategy that some have. It is to destroy people by calling into question certain things.
Some believe it is their view and all others are wrong. How sad.
Does anyone else find it ironic that many male theologians point out the deception of Eve while ignoring the full-blown disobedience of Adam!
Oh and by the way...
Where did Eve get the idea that if she touched the fruit she would die?
She was not present when God gave the command "not to eat" to Adam
If Adam shared the command with Eve not to eat of the fruit (or even touch it) he is guilty not only of direct disobedience but deception as as well.
I like that word "finally".....
Just something to think about: Perhaps Adam ate the fruit to restore a relationship which was now broken. He being sinless and she being sinful could never again have the same communion. Perhaps Adam willingly took upon himself the sin and it's consequence of death so that he might be restored to his wife. Maybe he decided that he would rather die with her than live without her.
It certainly parallels what the second Adam did for his bride (Romans 5). Maybe Adam just loved his wife and was willing to lay down his life for her as Christ did the church.
Matt Brady
One more comment and then I have to get some work done.
The multiple authors approach to interpreting Genesis does indeed raise the question of just what Brother Wade defines as conservative. It seems to me that the theories of multiple authorship of Genesis and its implications is what the majority of Southern Baptists cried foul to so many years ago. I wasn't even born yet, but most Southern Baptists at the time agreed that holding to such views was in no way conservative and in no way acceptable in our seminaries.
Matt Brady
Matt, do you really believe that Adam was trying to restore the relationship? That is reading into the text a little too much. If you do read the text in Hebrew, you will discover that the serpent is not just addressing Eve. All the verbs in the serpent's speech are in the 2 masculine plural, indicating that he was talking to both Adam and Eve, even though he was facing Eve. Adam was right there for the whole thing.
Tim Rogers,
You have a tendency, unintentional I hope, to call people liberal without basis or warrant.
Ben Cole told me that you called him the other day and informed him I was a liberal. When he recounted it to me he was laughing.
He laughed because he knows you know no more about my theology and my beliefs than the proverbial man in the moon. Yet you assert to a man who works on the staff of the church I pastor, who has listened to me preach well dozens and dozens of sermons, and has watched my ministry first-hand to people that I am 'liberal.'
Lucy, there is no need to ask the author of this paper if he does not believe the words of Jesus, as you request I ask him because of Tim Rogers' assertions. Consider the source.
The assertion that there are two creation accounts in early Genesis, each of a different age and of contradictory teachings, is a pretty strong indicator that this author writes from a JEDP perspective.
Bart,
Where in this paper did you read the author said the Bible was in contradiction?
Ray,
I just said it was something to think about.
As for the matter of calling a certain view liberal, I think the controversey of the 1960's gives a good indication that as far as Southern Baptists are concerned, the JEDP theory is indeed liberal. That is not name calling. It is just pointing out what Southern Baptists have already spoken to.
Matt Brady
Ray,
The second half of that last comment wasn't directed at you. Sorry about that.
Matt
Brother Wade,
No one is, or has, called you a liberal. I am just point to a theory that the author of this paper appears to be using.
Blessings,
Tim
Well, I guess if you can't discuss content, then you have to find one sentence that you can use to try and discredit the author's entire article.
I noticed that no one 'asked' if this was the case but conclusions were jumped to and now we have 'piling' on.
This tactic is getting old and I hope others are seeing through it.
"No one is, or has, called you a liberal."
Tim, Quoted from your blog about Wade:
"It is the same with some that responded to what you perceived was a tragedy, but you now realize that the injured was not part of the doctrinal family you have known as the SBC. Allow me to commend you on nurturing our Brother and being there for him. However, it is okay for you to now acknowledge what he has acknowledged–he does not embrace the BF&M 2000. Some may still be hanging on because you are still hung onto the question; “How could it be?”. That is okay, also. Back away and re-look at the posts that you see coming from this blog and you will observe the doctrinal slide toward the left. Then venture to this blog and view the post by this author and you will observe the vitriol and vengeance toward an entity president that has been duly elected by the BoT who are authorized to be in their positions by the convention."
I noticed you did not use Wade's name but linked to his blog. Since when has accusing someone of sliding toward the left NOT mean liberal?
Is this sort of like when Clinton said he did not have 'sex' with that woman? Word games?
You can claim you did not use the word 'liberal' about Wade and I guess since you did not use his name on this post, you could have plausible deniability? How very Clintonian of you.
What is it with you and the games?
I have found you to be deceitful and disingenious for sometime now. You don't fool me a bit. I am just grieved that you are a pastor.
Lucy
Tim:
Wade B. said--
"Ben Cole told me that you called him the other day and informed him I was a liberal." Will you confirm or deny this?
Wade,
Well I'll tell you what buddy, the only thing I can say is...the better half of your picture seems to be missing.
You know, nativevermonter...I noticed that too!
Maybe we should start a petition drive to have her reinstated to the blog! :)
I hear ya Steve, and if we had to pick between the two, well let's just say it's going to be a landslide if you get my drift :)
Wade,
I find it necessary to question your assessment of the author as “a person with a high view of the sacred text” based upon the apparent acceptance of JDEP theory as a relevant theory of authorship. To put it simply a persons view of the Bible is displayed in the way they approach the Bible and the authors hermeneutical technique calls into question whether are not the author truly has a ‘high view of the sacred text.”
Robert H.
Wade,
According to the article, the "rib story" is older and apparently asserts male headship. The argument against this viewpoint asserted here is not that the "rib story" in its "original form" actually says anything different, but that it has been enveloped by a "newer" creation account that, by not asserting male headship, brings a new "perspective" to the "rib story."
1. The "rib story" said one thing about male headship.
2. A "newer" creation account did not say the same thing about male headship.
3. Thus, the "rib story" should be read in the "perspective" of the "newer" creation account.
Any way you slice it, that's JEDP. And any way you slice it, that's a "newer" account correcting the "perspective" of the "older" account.
1. The "rib story" said one thing about male headship.
Adam was the 'source' for Eve. :o)
I just happened upon this blog today and have thoroughly enjoyed reading this seven-part series. As a Christian woman, and a writer and a teacher, it has given me much to think about and mull over. However, I have not enjoyed some of the petty name calling in the comments; it reminds me of the fractious business meetings in the Southern Baptist church of my childhood!
Rodney Sprayberry,
You wrote... "If Adam shared the command with Eve not to eat of the fruit (or even touch it) he is guilty not only of direct disobedience but deception as as well."
Are you suggesting that Adam sinned and fell before the fall?
This guy just laid down a case for total egalitarianism and the only criticism anyone can come up with is that his understanding of Genesis may be off? That is very telling indeed.
No,
Just looking at the the text( and doing what one of my OT professors in my one of my Dmin classes at that "liberal" seminary in Lynchburg, VA encouraged us to do) and asking questions!" :0)
Maybe the "Fall" was not just about the singular act of eating a piece of forbidden fruit by the woman... or the man
RMS
This string is the best laugh I've from a blog in I don't know when. And maybe ever, other than the time my older son almost dumped Aunt Jessie out of her coffin.
:)
Lucy and others who may agree (haven't read all the responses yet):
Your cultural references are noted and acknowledged.
It certainly is not outside the realm of possibility that the OT and NT believers have gotten this all wrong until, say, the last 100 years or so. And that the belief that God calls men to particular leadership positions in the church is only a culturally imposed doctrine. And that despite practice and scripture that upon first reading would indicate otherwise, that it is not so.
I understand that position.
My point is, however, that people with an egalitarian view need to be humble enough to admit that perhaps current views of scripture in their camp are equally subject influence from culture, and have at least an equal possibility of being wrong.
The point that any claim of a pattern of male servant leadership in formal spiritual settings among the patriarchs, during the Exodus, in Israel (which was not necessarily shared in pagan nations), between the Testaments, among the 12, the Apostles identified in the NT, the early church, the Middle Ages, the Reformation, and the modern church, and the belief that should continue, until about 1900 (give or take) (and again, I am talking in the main; not the occasionaly oddity, most of whom we have never heard of - I am sure some theolog here can come up with some name who is claimed in some journal to have been a woman and to have been the Bishop in some province preiously unknown) - is all just culturally imposed!
It seems to me, however, that is the harder argument to make from both history and scripture.
We may never convince one another, and that is fine. But the question remains whether the egalitarians could so much as admit that their interpretations are recent in origin (on a comparative basis),and that they are held humbly - with the possibility or error?
I have yet to hear an egalitarian make such an admission. Do you know of any who have?
Louis
if someone believes in the jedp theory, then how can they be trusted in the other things they say. it would make me severely question the low way they approach scripture. to say that jedp theory is accurate is to say that Jesus is either a liar who purposely deceived people, or else you are saying that Jesus is ignorant and didnt know all things. because, Jesus said that moses wrote it. Jesus said it. and, the only other option... if you have a high view of scripture...if you have a high view of Jesus....is to believe that Jesus said that moses wrote it, and moses did write it...if for no other reason than that Jesus said that he did. i believe that moses wrote the first five books of the bible. Jesus said that He did.
so, everything that this ghost writer has said about women in ministry, etc. is tainted by a liberal perspective. it was sounding bogus anyway. it was trying to play gymnastics with the scriptures teaching anyway. but, the view of this author really puts things in a better perspective.
david
I hear what you are saying Louis, I think it means that you have not heard what egalitarians are saying. I used to tow the line as a good complementarian and part of what made me feel secure in that was the fact that all those women who wanted to be ordained were angry, pushy women who obviously should not be allowed to be in charge for all our sakes. But then the Bible happened. Complementarians always say- usually loudly- 1 Tim 2 and that is the end of it! But they don't have to explain those unknown, unheard of women you were talking about like Deborah, or Mary, or Martha, or Philip's daughters who apparently prophesied to female only audiences. They don't have to explain Phoebe- 'servant'? the word was deacon or all the other women- were there more women than men?- in all the other epistles he greeted. The church in Cloe's house? She probably just served the tea right? Or as we go through history we can ignore, because we don't really know do we, the fact that more women come to faith in every new mission work going than men and were significant leaders in every single mission work from the first century on- but you don't know that so the facts don't have to bother your theology any. Man, I am getting riled as I write I had better sign off now.
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David commented while I was writing my last comment. David, please stop. He never said jedp nothin. He said there were two different creation stories and there are- Gen 1 and Gen 2. I agree that Moses wrote them down. Of course, he wasn't there when they happened so they must be oral stories that were passed down. Doesn't matter. It is one of the enemy's great schemes to get us to discount something that God wants us to hear by pointing out some abberation in the person God is using. So, you don't read the psalms of David because he was an adulterer? I don't think so. I am wrong about some things- many perhaps- but God has revealed some awesome things about Himself through His Word and through my life that you need to know. He has done the same through you. Our lack of discernment is indicative of how far we are from the Holy Spirit who trying to teach us through Men, Women, Calvinists, Armenians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Baptists, and Donkeys.
007:
LIBERAL--LIBERAL--LIBERAL--LIBERAL. DAVID YOU LOVE TO PAINT PEOPLE __________. THE ANSWER IS INCLUDED IN THIS POST.
Strider: "The church in Cloe's house"
Are you interpreting "them which are of the house of Chloe" in I Cor 1:11 as members of the church that met in Chloe's house rather than members of the household/family of Chloe? I am asking re studying house churches and apart from the debate on comp/egal. Thanks.
RL- Yes, I believe that households met together in their homes as there were no church buildings at the time. It is very interesting that Chloe is mentioned as the name to distinguish the household in what was a Patriarchal society. Stephanes' household is mentioned just a few verses later. I do not believe it was uncommon then, as it is not uncommon now that in a new CP situation more women come to faith- men are prideful creatures as we well know- and therefore they are the defacto heads of the households of faith. This is not evil- it is not second best, or the best God could do for now. It is a fact. A fact that still exists today from China to South America to anywhere you want to mention.
I'm not the anonymous posted anywhere else here--just not tech savvy enough to post under my name--Linda.
This series has been wonderful, eye opening, challenging, and uplifting.
The comments, though, smack of the old boy network so much I would think complementarians would be embarrassed.
Thanks, Strider. It is my opinion that all New Testament were house churches, but that not all houses or households refer to churches. I have always thought about the First Corithian mention as a house as in household, though I'm not adverse to looking at it the other way.
Reading your comment came in connection with my looking today at "receive tiem not into your house" in II John. I have been meditating on whether that meant a house church or a house/home (or both) I'll always thought it meant a church.
This comment is getting way off topic, but just thought I'd give a little background to my question.
"We see growth both in spirituality and converts corresponding with a greater role for women during the 17th century, the New Connection, the First and Second Great Awakenings, and the mid-twentieth century. Likewise, we see a decrease in converts and spirituality corresponding with a lesser role for women at other times. This is not to say that the roles for women in ministry are a cause of spiritual rise and decline: it is a symptom."
This is to me very telling. It also reminds me of Joel 2. The truth is that when we all live in the fullness of the Spirit and allow Him to control our lives we all end up doing things that are "culturally" uncomfortable. We all become a part of His plan to share the gospel with a lost and dying world. We all become more than conquers, pushing back the darkness. We all go on the offensive for Him and stop trying to defend ourselves.
Seems to me that we need more Spirit filled living!!!
Vicky was the last anonymous writer. Sorry!
Oops. "receive him not into your house"
"But the question remains whether the egalitarians could so much as admit that their interpretations are recent in origin (on a comparative basis),and that they are held humbly - with the possibility or error?"
Louis, Haven't you been down this road before on another thread? God works within culture as we see in the OT. Otherwise, you would have to admit that slavery and polygamy were God ordained. So, to say that God ordained the Patriarchal culture is a stretch when reading Genesis 2. It HAS to be read into the account.
But as to your question, it depends on what passages you are talking about. There are early church fathers such as Chrysotom (spelling?) that wrote about Junia being an apostle. Grumden wrote that was not true and got his clock cleaned and then had to write a mea culpa.
We have interpretations that have rarely been questioned and should have been because CULTURE intepreted them. Just as an example, how strange it is that so few have questioned the teaching that a woman can be saved if she stays in her 'role' of childbearing as 1 Tim 2 supposedly teaches? That is a 'work'. But so many will argue all day it isn't a work. But there are quite a few reasons why that interpretation is problematic. It does not fit the Gospel message.
How is it that so many have ignored in that same passage the grammar that tells us Paul is talking about ONE woman? Not ALL women for ALL time? Just an oversight, perhaps? :o)
Could it be that the resources for scholarship, like the printing press did for scripture, are making hermeneutics available to the unwashed masses? Could it be that the Holy Spirit can illuminate truth to someone who did not attend seminary?
Even a woman?
Asking about interpretations that are recent, what about the state church and compulsory attendance that was considered biblical up until a few hundred years ago? How could that be? How about infant Baptism that was accepted by most for 2ooo years? Transubstantiation? Baptismal regeneration? How did those get missed by so many brilliant theologians?
Could it be that they interpreted scripture from a 'cultural' point of view in some of these instances?
Yes, we will never agree. So many are dying to blame it all what they call Radical feminists. Any women who love the Lord and want to witness to anything breathing, whether male or female is a radical feminist and does not know her 'role'.
What is it with you guys that you are so insecure and cannot learn from women or hear one preach?
Did it ever occur to you that you may be in the sin of pride and arrogance and 'lording it over' others?
It is NOT outlawed in scripture to for women to prophesy. I think I know what it really is...every movement needs a common enemy to unite around. The enemy is now women who do not know their 'role' or 'place'. Any woman outside the 'prescribed role' is a liberal feminist.
I think the author does a great job of presenting his view. I wish he had done a better job of tackling why the Bible so consistently prefers men in those roles given that:
1. The OT requires men for the role of priest.
2. The NT echoes that requirement both in the direct choices of Jesus (the 12 men as apostles) and the Apostles (7 male Jewish Christians with Greek names) and the apparently direct (though perhaps unintentionally misleading) comments on leadership that do not seem to be using non-determinate gender but intentional gender.
I think there is room for him to do that by addressing both OT and NT examples (which he did bring up) and leaving OPEN the question of whether God intended the apparently prescriptive choices as exclusive, proportional, or occasionally exceptional.
Exclusive would be the traditional complementarian view that women can never be in positions of FINAL authority, especially senior pastor.
Proportional would be the traditional egalitarian view that any woman, any time could be called, but that God selectively calls and has so far called more men than women.
Occasionally exceptional would be the position that God makes exceptions in order to fulfill his will according to how it delights him and is NOT bound by the prescriptive comments but only occasionally finds reason to make exceptions.
No complementarian in good conscience can make the claim that God is UNABLE to make exceptions. They at best can claim he is unwilling (while ignoring the names of women in leadership that have been raised.)
No egalitarian in good conscience can fully ignore the pattern of ALMOST exclusively choosing men that we see in the OT and NT. To do so is to deny a clear pattern. They at best explain that the clear pattern is a cultural trend (which ignores that God gave the levitical/priestly requirements to Moses and Jesus made the selection of the men as apostles. That leaves the choice as oddly "genuflectionary" by God to the culture as the most generous interpretation and God as unable to overcome culture as a less generous and obviously wrong interpretation.)
Bart:
Due to the use of the word "toldot" in Genesis 2:4 and the lack of the waw connective at the beginning of that verse, the safest assumption is that the word (loosely translated "story" or "line" or more recognizeably "account" and very poorly rendered "generations" in the KJV) applies to verse 4 and onward. So two separate accounts is not an unreasoned view even if one completely and unequivocally rejects the Documentary Hypothesis.
The only real problem with the Documentary Hypothesis is its late assumption regarding redaction v. a very traditionalist view that Moses wrote every single word of the Torah. I will argue that there is undeniable proof that the latter cannot be true in the text itself. The former's problem is that it's main hypothesizers seemed intent on questioning the veracity of Scripture and appear to have invented that hypothesis for the purpose of demystifying the stories of the Bible.
A naked assertion that many people collected the stories in the Bible--for example Moses collecting handed-down oral or written stories--is one that I've heard at least one prominent, very conservative preacher make from the pulpit.
Greg Harvey
strider,
Jesus said that moses wrote them. read the gospels. are you calling Jesus a liar? ignorant? i would sure hope not.
tom parker,
you are always so negative and attacking with your comments. come on, man. lighten up a little.
david
Lin:
I'll take that as a round about way of saying "No."
You cannot conceive that your position might be wrong and influenced by culture.
I am comfortable with where I am, but would admit that I could be wrong on this point. I am just doing the best I can as a believer.
I do find that most egalitarians are so dead certain about their interpretation, and I find that curious.
As for some of those historical interpretations that you correctly cited (because it is a good aspect to think about), I think that all of them listed - baptismal regeneration, infant baptism, transubstantion, those were all held for a long time. But history shows that those positions were not the positions of the early church. Those were positions that developed decades and hundreds of years after Christ. Not so with regard to women in the pastorate role.
The NT church did not have women among the twelve and the apostles, who were the leaders of the church. So, I don't think that is a good comparison.
Lin, you are a very smart and capable woman and I agree dialoging with very much. Your arguments are good ones, but they are weakened by the unnecessary ad hominem that you slip into from time to time. I hope that you can learn to refrain from that. It would make you even more persuasive.
I would be curious to know if you are a seminary student, lay person, or on staff at a church - sort of your station in life and whether you aspire to the pastorate or to teach or what.
I am a 46 year old, soon to be 47, lawyer, co-founder of a congregation and an elder in my church. I preach about once a year and teach a class one semester a year.
Louis
Where does Jesus say that Moses wrote the Pentateuch?
Strider:
Why are you egalitarians on edge?
I am sorry that you felt you had to "tow a line" (is it tow or toe?) and I am glad that you do not now.
I don't have to do that. It's just that I don't agree with the egalitarian position on the sacred text and history.
That does not mean that I think the people who hold the egalitarian position are all angry feminists.
Now, certainly there are angry feminists. And - angry feminists do hold to an egalitarian position (I guess). But I don't put most women who ready and study the Bible seriously in the angry feminist camp. Feminism, as a movement, is not prevalent in the Christian community, especially among fundamentalists, such as those who comment here.
As to the examples that you mention (Deborah, Cloe, Mary, Martha, Phillip's daughters, etc.), I simply stick with the text and don't extrapolate beyond that unless I have real facts to back it up.
For example, one NT text says something like, "Greetings to the church that meets in Cloe's house..." My egalitarian friends extrapolate that to read "Greetings to the church pastored by Cloe."
I helped start a church. We met for a while in a house owned by Barbara. But Barbara was not the pastor.
It makes me wonder if 2000 years from now, if someone is digging through the rubble of what was the U.S., and they come upon a letter from a well-known evangelical leader to a church start in West Nashville that says, "Greetings to the Church that meets at McDonalds." The egalitarians of that day will conclude, "you see - the pastor was named McDonalds!" And from there, of course, they will deduce that he was the pastor of the largest church in history because he served Billions and Billions!
Have fun.
Louis
"You cannot conceive that your position might be wrong and influenced by culture."
I believe my position is influenced by study. You are missing a very important ingredient in all this: All official translators have been men.
"I do find that most egalitarians are so dead certain about their interpretation, and I find that curious. "
No, just excited to share what we find. Example: The grammar in 1 Tim 2 about "A singular woman" is a fact. Why has that been ignored? Why do we keep seeing sermons saying it applies to all women for all time? Can you please answer that?
"As for some of those historical interpretations that you correctly cited (because it is a good aspect to think about), I think that all of them listed - baptismal regeneration, infant baptism, transubstantion, those were all held for a long time. But history shows that those positions were not the positions of the early church. Those were positions that developed decades and hundreds of years after Christ. Not so with regard to women in the pastorate role."
Some were held as early as 200 AD. Remember, the Patriarchal Jewish, Greek and Roman culture was brought into the church in the NT. What do you think all the problems in those epistles were all about? By the way, where do you think we got the pulpit and sermons? Greek orators who came into the church.
"The NT church did not have women among the twelve and the apostles, who were the leaders of the church. So, I don't think that is a good comparison."
I know you don't like it but I am afraid you cannot ignore Junia. Chrystom (sp) writes that she WAS an apostle and he was no lover of women. And he was closer to that time than you are.
"Lin, you are a very smart and capable woman and I agree dialoging with very much. Your arguments are good ones, but they are weakened by the unnecessary ad hominem that you slip into from time to time. I hope that you can learn to refrain from that. It would make you even more persuasive."
Sorry, Louis. I am