Where Are All the Young Leaders in the SBC?
The following email was received from one of our missionaries on the field. I do not know this person, nor have I ever correseponded with him before. The email is unsolicited, unedited, and offered without commentary:.Mr. Burleson,
I am not a big blogger, partly because I am scared to see what the next new law is that others may be trying be pass and partly because it is overwhelming. The reason I am writing you is to encourage you, I hope.
I am a young missionary on the the field with the IMB and I am staying here because I feel that there is hope for the SBC and missions. Unfortunately, many of my young colleagues are resigning by the droves and it is not because of what is usually toted in the States "the mission field is tough and some can't cut it". Rather they are "choked out". They can't take take the politics, laws on top of laws, hypocrisy, and the "BIG COMPANY" mentality anymore. The room for diversity in the IMB and SBC is very narrow and is becoming even narrower. That is so sad to me.
The fact that some Southern Baptists are not "Southern Baptist" enough... where will it end? The funny/sad thing is we keep hearing from the leadership "where are all the young leaders? Where are the supporting churches?" The answer is the leaders are on the field being supported by the churches that don't want to deal with it anymore.
When we here that trustees are coming to "visit" our ministry it brings a constant anxiety,shouldn't that be joy and not anxiety? Anyway, I digress. I say all that to say THANK YOU, for having the guts to stand up for the Bible, and for freedom of speech (which by the way is almost non-existent in our organization).
It is people like you that keep people like us on the field. You give us hope. I am here for the long haul, I am here to spread the Gospel, obey my Lord and do it with SBC churches along side of me. We are here, we exist (we just can't speak up or we will be fired)!
So on behalf of all of us who are praying for change and leadership that is not scared of open discussion and diversity, thank you.
*If you share this with anyone please remove my name and email address.
Grace and Peace,
An Unidentified Southern Baptist Missionary
posted by Wade Burleson | Monday, May 05, 2008
111 Comments:
Wade,
Sometimes you and I preach a thousand words over and over again while it takes just one good picture to illustrate what you are trying to encapsulate on this blog and what illustrates what we fear is happening throughout SBC Life.
Missionary brother or sister in Christ, you are in my prayers and on my churches weekly prayer bulletin under the unspoken requests. All information to contact me is in my profile on this blog.
I Thessalonians 5:24,
"Faithful is He Who calls you Who also will do it."
Phil in Norman.
"many of my young colleagues are resigning by the droves"
I'm not sure what to say
Wade.
Oh, No! No!
Now you’ve done it.
You’ve put a missionary’s email of complaint on the WEB!
Don’t you know missionaries are not free to dissent?
Don’t you remember what happened when a complaining email from a missionary found its way to the president of the most powerful committee in the SBC…the Executive Committee?
Don’t you remember that president called the president of the IMB telling him to get his missionaries under control which led to the forced signing of the BFM 2000 which led to the removal of over 100 missionaries from God’s call?
I can hear the phone ringing off the wall of the president of the IMB all the way from Texas… ‘How dare a missionary say he’s afraid of being fired! If you can’t stop that complaining we’ll get someone who can!’
Here’s a tip for finding that person: Find someone named Rehoboam. (“My father disciplined you with whips, but I, with barbed whips.”)
Oh I forgot, that policy has already been established by fundamentalists of the C/R.
This doesn't sound like anything Jesus would associate Himself with. Drs. Hatley & Floyd, you were the two people most trusted to keep situations like this from arising. Welcome to your legacy.
If one served in a bi-vocational capacity, coupled with self-sacrifical support from their local fellowship, perhaps...ahhh, it would never work, would it?
Wade,
This letter illustrates the most profound change that has taken place in the SBC in the last thirty years. It started in 1979 with criticism and attacks on sitting leaders and anyone who would support them.
Criticism, conflict, and fear became a way of life in the annual meetings and in between. The spirit of the Convention changed from being positive and accepting to being negative and condemning.
We stopped celebrating victories and began to magnify shortcomings. We stopped being Christlike and began to be Pharisaical.
All of this happened under the banner of a Battle for the Bible. In reality, all of the methods used and spirits demonstrated violate every clear teaching of the New Testament. How can something be of God when it is devoid of his spirit?
Interesting, John spoke to this in 1 John 4 when he said to test the spirits of those who claim to be spokesmen for God. He didn't say test the doctrine. He majors on spirit.
Then he spends a whole chapter explaining the primacy of agape as the spirit of God. The conclusion being that if one does not demonstrate agape in their actions, they are not speaking for the Father.
It is very difficult to find expressions of grace and agape in the workings of Convention leadership today. That leadership more commonly incites fear and hatred.
This letter also illustrates why many churches who do not support present leadership continue to support the CP. They cannot let the missionaries down. They assume that there are persons like this missionary on the field doing the work of God, and they cannot desert them.
Blessings to you, Wade. You do demonstrate the grace and agape of God in your spirit and attitudes. One testing your spirit will find you indeed are speaking for the Living God. (Even when you are wrong in some of your positions, occasionally. :))
Jim Fitch
Every time a small group attempts to define what it means to be "Southern Baptist" in non-negotiable doctrinal terms, a larger group falls outside the definition. Our younger leaders represent the future. What will that look like if they are seeking to serve and lead on the mission field without applying through our own IMB?
Wade,
Sorry, but that is not what I am hearing from the field. I am hearing things quite different.
I am hearing there are changes for the good and that people are happier now.
Remaining anonymous for a reason.
Wade,
I'm not "calling you to task." I'm just saying that is one perspective and I have heard others.
Thanks,
Anonymous from above.
Anonymous said...
Wade,
Sorry, but that is not what I am hearing from the field. I am hearing things quite different.
I am hearing there are changes for the good and that people are happier now.
Remaining anonymous for a reason.
Anonymous, please share with Wade your story, as the missionary on the post did. I'd really like to hear your "positive" stories. That way, we can see the better story you believe is out there.
Wade,
Be careful, Hershel York with write a post about this.
I was in Western Europe earlier in the year with over 80 missionaries from that country. Then a few discovered who I was, and from them on when we met other missionaries we would get, "They're one of us". We knew what that meant.
Sadly, I have now learned that in the past month 28 missionaries, some I met and some I didn't, resigned.
They resigned because they were not allowed to do ministry in a way they felt would best reach people in Western Europe. They were fed up with how they were criticized by trustees. So they are doing something else.
These were fantastic people and we had great discussions on how they were able to reach people in Western Europe. Interestingly, it was corresponding a great deal with the time and energy and actions I was doing in Delaware. I realized very quickly that we are becoming like Western Europe very quickly, and our denomination is not ready for it.
Mr. Heartsill,
Most of my stories come from Central Asia nad East Asia. Now, I remain anonymous because I remain in contact with several of these missionaries. If I gave the impression I am a missionary I apologize. I am not...yet (at least in the way we use the term missionary).
Anyways, the stories I am hearing are good ones. People are happy with their current leadership. While they don't agree with everything that comes down (usually not related to the "laws" that are being spoken of here) they do overall enjoy the fact that they are with the board.
I am friends with several who are stateside right now who are happy. One is from S. Asia and plans to go back. But I don't want to talk to much about them again because it is their lives and not mine that would be affected.
That doesn't mean that everything that the board does I agree with or they agree with. But, all I wanted to show is there is a good portion of people who are happy with the board (especially in CA).
Thanks,
Anonymous friend of missionaries
I had to write the above quickly, I'm off to a meeting, my apologies.
My heart goes out to this young missionary. I believe his thoughts and words are correct.I don't expect every missionary to be of the same mind as we all analyze things differently.
I have just completed the first form for the IMB, my spouse will complete their's this week. I know this is a long process but we are diligently praying for God to show us His will concerning foreign missions.
One of the reasons is, we are tired of the local Southern Baptist church in America. The rules continue to tighten as we work hard to win lost people to Jesus. Have you ever been asked to resign because to many people were being baptized and joining the church? We have. Have you stared into the eyes of 100's of apathetic believers, week after week? We have.
Have you had a person of different color attend church and be ignored by the majority of the members. We have.
I want to be in the middle of God's will and I am not convinced splitting a church where 100's of other SB churches sit within a stones throw is the answer.
The trustees at the IMB have their problems but they are no less authoritarian than many, if not most, SB churches in our beloved convention.
Anonymous on purpose since we are not ready to say we have applied with the IMB.
This post has been removed by the author.
Wade,
I really want to believe this post as well as the words of David Phillips above. I want to believe it because I am critical of the direction of the IMB BOT and the authoritarian nature of the SBC in general right now.
Problem is, without any substantial evidence (i.e. real names and testimonies of the resigned missionaries) it is tough to believe. BOT member York posted recently on his blog that the rumors of the resignations were NOT true, and asked for names, to which no-one replied.
I realize that this Missionary wishes to remain anonymous. I respect that totally in the current climate. But what about some names and stories from those who are (supposedly) leaving the field in droves. Can you obtain any of these? It would be really helpful.
Perhaps a series of blog-posts telling their stories so that today's SBC can really see that the problems are more than just sound and fury.
Thanks,
Ethan in KY
Ethan,
We left the field in 2004. We were relieved when we felt like the Lord was directing us to return to the states - relieved because of the very things that the letter author wrote. We also witnessed more than a handful of young missionaries leave, completely chewed up by "the system."
I don't know if it depends on what region of the world you are working in as to how "the system" is working. We were in the Central Asia region. That is as far as I can identify myself - not because I want to remain anonymous but because we worked in an area of the world where even now, I have to remain anonymous (with regards to our missionary activity) for the protection of the people we worked with in country and for the protection of the missionaries we worked with who are still there. We knew from the beginning that our work there would forever be anonymous. We were never on the prayer calendars, churches never printed our full names when we came to speak, etc..
Before we headed overseas and were at MLC (that was what it was called then), we heard from a missionary who had been working with the underground church in China. Once when he was in the states, he spoke at a church and a regional Baptist paper wrote an article about him, without his knowledge or permission. Of the five pastors he had been working with in China, two were put to death, 1 disappeared and 2 were able to flee the country. News travels that fast.
I offer this as one possible, very good reason that not many people are willing to be named.
Anecdotal evidence is always suspect - because you don't know if it represents the majority of what is going on. Maybe more missionaries will write to Wade of their stories - both good and bad. Then maybe we can see a pattern.
Jim Fitch,
"All of this happened under the banner of a Battle for the Bible. In reality, all of the methods used and spirits demonstrated violate every clear teaching of the New Testament. How can something be of God when it is devoid of his spirit?"
The answer, I think can be found in Zechariah 11 and Matthew Henry commentary on the same found
Here
If we read this passage and understand what Jesus did to the Nation of Israel for rejecting Him and put it into the context of what we see happening today, it answers your question.
God is not "in it" but it certainly begins to resemble His judgement on the Nation of Israel. Now, if we remember that "judgement begins at the House of the Lord" 1 Peter 4:17 and other key scripture such as 1 Cor 10:11 and Hebrews 3:12,19 and Romans 11:21-23
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Israel the Nation was broken off. Zechariah 11 explains why. We have a whole generation today that has heard nothing but "peace, peace" Grace and Mercy which is much the same message that Israel heard as Titus crushed Jerusalem the last time.
The real question we should be asking is if we as a church, denomination can do the same things Israel did and avoid the same rod of correction?
I don't think so and looking at our current situation in light of Zechariah 11 doesn't bode well for the religious establishment today. What we seem to be seeing is more of His judgement.
I know the MCH notes are long, but just read it and see if you think any of it fits in the SBC right now.
Anon 9:34
"One of the reasons is, we are tired of the local Southern Baptist church in America. The rules continue to tighten as we work hard to win lost people to Jesus. Have you ever been asked to resign because to many people were being baptized and joining the church? We have. Have you stared into the eyes of 100's of apathetic believers, week after week? We have.
Have you had a person of different color attend church and be ignored by the majority of the members. We have."
Take a look at the above. God, I think is tired of it as well.
Ethan in KY...It is not my right to give you names. Here's a link to one in western europe who just resigned:
http://www.missionsmisunderstood.com
The reason I know this is because I have been working with many of them on some projects.
Anyone willing to have your reputation ruined? Have powerful people claim you are a liar and have no references for future job?
If you are willing to do that, then please tell your story and use your name. As you have ample proof how you will be treated as can be seen by how Wade has been treated. And, of course, some of you have seen how some on the field were treated. Dissent is dangerous to your future and unlike Wade, you are beholden to these folks for your living and future opportunities.
Never mind those kids you need to feed, house and cloth. Where is your bravery? We know the world always believes those in power over the nobodies who stand up for truth.
So what is your problem?
Why is it, that no one can see how stupid it is to ask for names. Why don't you just ask people to ruin their future? It is the same thing.
We were told that if we did not sign the BF&M2000, no church in the US would hire us. While on Stateside assignment, we felt a need to be guarded in our comments, as we found there were those here looking to "expose" those missionaries who were not loyal to the system.
When missionaries stood up to say, "We will not sign the BF&M2000," they were marked for termination. Many felt forced into resigning to avoid being terminated.
In that context, how do you propose that missionaries give their names along with criticism of the system? Only those willing to be cut out of the system are in a position to do so.
I currently serve in Western Europe. I met David earlier this year when he was here. I sat with him in a living room, along with 10 or so other young pastors from the States as we talked through what ministry looks like here in W.E. If David says he knows of 28 m's that have resigned, or shortly will, then I believe him. I personally can't account for 28, but I can account for 6 or so. And like David, it's not my job to name names.
There is a change happening. For the most part it's going largely unrecognized.
Ethan - Dr. York's post about resignations within the IMB was slightly misguided. The stats he represented said what he wanted them to say. And he was looking at data that's not current.
I'm saying all of this to point to this conclusion: Young m's are leaving the IMB, and young leaders are leaving the SBC. Instead of figuring out "why" it's happening let's just recognize that it is and look for new ways to partner together. There are too many individuals that are not in a relationship with Jesus to spend time trying to figure out why all of this is going on.
-shorty
Wade,
My family and I served as ISCers in a frontier region, and through contacts at MLC/ILC, friends from college and from church, I know many people who are and were working in all the regions that the IMB services.
Taking their responses and our experiences together, it is generally NOT "Richmond" that sets the tone for those wonderful servants that are at the front line, but the regional admins/area directors. Some regions have gracious, servant-minded people who interpret the Manual of Procedures (MOP)in the most accomodating way for the M's, and others have rules-oriented, inflexible beancounters who can't see the ministry mindset that was behind the MOP. And from time to time, these conditions change. Various regions have had their ups and downs, and M's have transferred from horrid admin regions to much greener pastures, all within the IMB.
Richmond generally takes the area directors at face value and won't talk to the front line M's, and that's a shame at times, for it allows power hungry admins to lord it over others. On the other hand, having a good, service-minded area director frees M's from a lot of paperwork and interference, and lets them develop effective Gospel ministry for the culture they work in.
Basically, when people are put in charge of something, it can function well or poorly, depending on the pride of the leader.
BTW, I rejoice every day for the leadership I serve with at Union Univ. Grace and trust are actions, not just words, here.
Let me rephrase, so that I can be more clear...I know several who resigned. There was almost an entire team of a major city in Europe who resigned. I say almost because I was told most of the team would be leaving.
There were 28 people in a rented home somewhere in Western Europe working on plans for some really cool stuff. I don't know if all of them were missionaries or if that was missionaries and their families.
Please forgive the (possible) mischaracterization of the number, as information has been sketchy lately due to the beginnings of the departure of m's.
Whoa everyone... I think at best some folks have misread what I said and at worst are misreading the spirit with which I wrote my earlier post.
I AGREE that there is a problem and want to know more about it. I am not a flamer or a BI-type guy here to discredit Wade's post. I also stated in my post that I UNDERSTAND why many remain anonymous and will continue to do so. I am not asking anyone to jeopardize their work or sabotage their career by telling their stories. BTW...have you not guessed that I remain mostly anonymous for a reason? I know the current climate of SB life and care not for teh reprisals that would come with revealing my full identity. So I understand this. David Phillips, thank you for the response brother, but I was not challenging you to produce names. I know why you cannot.
Let me try again to restate my point in better language. Because I do believe there is a problem, I believe that it will only be addressed if and when we can convince the mass of SB pastors/ concerned laypeople that such a problem exists. The BOT is going to continue to produce "white papers," blog-reports and press-releases telling everyone everything is OK. They silenced Wade (which I lament) and will not make the mistake of allowing a non-loyalist into the club again in the future. So how do we get out the message that there really is a problem?
Keep letting former Ms (or current) tell their stories, either anonymously if they must, or if they can afford to identify themselves, letting them have an outlet to tell their stories, where people will listen and take up their cause. Do we know for a fact that there are NO former missionaries who will tell their tale?
In statistics, anonymity is protected...how about some numbers as to how many M's have left the field in the last 2 years, 5 years, etc... and what their age was? What were their reasons, as given upon exit? Etc...
And above all, pray for truth to prevail.
There's enough fighting and dissension on these boards already from those who think there is no problem, it would be ironic if you all were to rip-apart someone who agrees with you. and I do.
Ethan in KY
Wade,
I am curious as to why you would post an email from someone you do not know and have never correseponded with... and do so without commentary.
Could it be that this furthers your "cause"? Could it also be that this young man's opinion runs contrary to facts? Where are the numbers that support the claim that missionaries are "resigning by the droves"?
I think it wise that you have not commented on this email. I also think it would be wise for anyone reading this post by Wade, to try to see through the fog, and try to overcome this apocalyptic attitude.
Joe W. makes a very good point. If so many are resigning from the IMB, then why doesn't the numbers from the IMB match? Dr. York did do a fairly good piece about this in his post found here:
http://hershaelyork.blogspot.com/2008/04/exploding-myths-and-accusations-about.html#comments
Somebody's lying here. Since Dr. York has presented his evidence instead of just giving his opinion, I'm tending to think that its not him.
Not trying to be difficult, but I have heard language like that in churches. Pastor, they don't...or they won't. They think. I have no reason to doubt the person is honest, but perhaps they are overstating the case. I would like to see stats to back up the claim. I imagine some have left the field because of politics. I imagine the same argument could have been used in the Pre-CR days.
This post has been removed by the author.
Joe W.
I was wondering how long it’d take you to make your usually critical comment. Your advice to be wise in seeing through fog has been used throughout history to prevent truth.
I guess you didn’t demand names because that’d make you a hypocrite.
Would you mind explaining “apocalyptic attitude”? Couldn’t find it in the dictionary.
For you guys that want stats, try to find out how many career or long time missionaries there are compared to years in the past. Of the 5,000 missionaries, they keep their years on the field as if top secret.
Joe W.,
My folks were on the field as missionaries for 28 years. I was 2 years in Mexico, and 7 in Brazil. My experience says you are refusing to recognize where the fog is coming from.
BTW, you won't see numbers from those taking early retirement. You also won't see numbers from those completing their initial term and not returning to the field.
Rex Ray,
A few years back, the IMB changed the way they count long-term missionaries to include 2-year assignments. Payroll makes a distinction, but somehow they cannot give a number of how many checks they write for missionaries in a career category (i.e., receiving annuity contributions).
Chris, Why won't we see these numbers? I must confess I am at a lost to figure all these things out. My point is not to call the person a liar who wrote the email or to call Dr. York a liar. I believe both have firm convictions and there are times our convictions cloud our judgments. It has happen to me. I have a feeling no matter what evidence is present many are going to see what they want to see.
Wade,
I had a cousin who was absolutely smothered by his parents. I surmise they were so desperate for a child that when they finally got my cousin, they just never gave him a chance to develop into who he might have been (in my opinion and the opinion of others who knew them).
His father did his homework for him, went out to find him now and then when he was out on dates, and my uncle even practiced the trombone for him (and learned how to play it pretty well in the process). When he was in his mid-20’s, he and I discussed this many times; the frustration he felt and how his mom and dad had made him feel as a child.
But the point of the comment isn’t my cousin, it’s the rest of the family. The family sat around saying "aint it awful" and predicting all the bad effects they were going to have on my cousin. The only thing they DIDN'T do was to say it to my aunt and uncle.
Thank you for saying this stuff to the people who need to hear it. When the SBC comes down like a house of cards, or morphs (which may be a minor change anyway) into an irrelevant religious club, at least your hands will be clean, along with those of folks who've gotten involved because you refused to sit down and shut up.
A couple of thoughts and observations.
First, over time it would be natural that those who are "on the field" will think/accept the style/approach of the BOT of the IMB simply because the selection process will be skewed in this direction naturally with the current BOT's, rules, etc.
So, those who do not find this acceptable will leave over time, either because they feel the squeeze of change or over time their thinking changes. Some, of course, will agree with the IMB approach and remain, over time this will be more and more of those appointed.
Second, I live in a university community that is conservative in all respects, including theologically and has 55,000 students. Many are followers of Jesus who are eager to be on mission. A large missions fair is held on campus each year where literally several thousand attend. More students from this university go to seminary than any other university in my state, including all Christian universities in the state and without regard to which denomination. With this background, here are my observations that reflect trends over the past 10 years:
1. Students who would in the past have gone to seminary now believe they can be more effective as followers of Jesus in a so-called secular job. This includes seeking international employment. They view each person as a missionary and believe the freedom to minister without arbitrary restrictions is more in line with both scripture and the praciticalities of being on mission. These students also are very comfortable working with other followers of Jesus who are not SBC.
2. Those who do seek out international or US missions positions are more likely to seek it with an organization other than the SBC or, in some cases, through the local state convention. In the last couple of years this would be the majority consciously choosing not to seek mission opportunities with the SBC.
3. Particularly, among young SBC women who feel called to missions I see a trend to go to seminary at non-Baptist or non-SBC seminaries because they fear being unable to fulfill their calling if they do take this path. This is true even of those who are complementarians in their views. This is based on a belief they may not be able to finish their degrees at an SBC seminary if the rules are further tightened. (I would note that I also see many young men unwilling to to to SBC seminaries as well but for different reasons, mostly related to the narrowing of the parameters Wade continues to raise on his blog.)
Most young people I encounter in SBC churches view the SBC (national organization) as out of date, out of touch, and essentially irrelevant to their ministry or lives.
I find it laughable at best, and offensive at worst, that there are those (John D) that would call others liars because stats weren't provided to back up a claim that m's are leaving the field.
Dr. York's number are only valid up through 2007. He has nothing from 2008 in the post that was linked by John D.
I'm sitting here, on the field, speaking with other m's on a regular basis. I've spoken with some of those that are resigning. I've spoken with some of those that are completing terms with absolutely no intention of coming back (even though they would have had their times here turned out differently).
And again, I wonder why so much time is being spent on finding out why. You will never know all the reasons.
-shorty
Apparently we haven't been exactly truthful over the years in making statements concerning how many members the SBC actually has. Because of this, it is relatively easy to believe that maybe we also haven't been truthful with how many missionaries we actually have on the field at any given time.
What it seems to boil down to is:
inflated numbers = inflated egos.
No one in leadership would really want to admit that missionaries are leaving in droves.
That would mean having to admit that there MIGHT be a problem.
Wade,
This may be like asking a man how much he makes and for that reason you may not with do disclose this, but I'm wondering how many IP addresses come regularly to this website. Do you have a count, or any way of determining the scope of readership? This may be a card you wish to hold close, but if not, I'd love to know!
The reason I ask is because I see reality in many of the comments. The reality of a desire for change and a feeling of dispondency among many. I cannot help but think that those who read this blog and do NOT comment are being affected as well.
I'd like to know how many minds are being enlightened to some of these issues that are being discussed. AND I understand if you wish not to share.
Robert
Rex Ray,
The sad thing is, you really believe I am the one who is being critical.
Apocalyptic Attitude? -
I run into people weekly, if not daily, who have what I call the "last days syndrom" or an "apocalyptic attitude". These people feel like the sky is falling, everything that can go wrong will go wrong, and God has forsaken us in these last days. I hear them say... "People won't go to church anymore, it must be a sign of the times" ... "People aren't getting saved anymore, it must be because we are living in the last days." It is easy to feel this way, and it is easy to have this attitude... however, one should not let statistics, emails, or blogs give us this attitude. God has not changed... God is still God, He can still save, He can still add to His church... He can... ... ... you get the idea.
Chris Harbin,
If you will follow the link above provided by John D., you will find that retirements, early or timely, are included in the numbers (and these are from 2007).
Joe W.
I am not at all apocolyptic about what is going on. Indeed, I am very excited about what is going on in the "church". I see God's Spirit at work in magnificent ways. However, what many in the SBC are missing is that where the Spirit of God is at work tends to be increasingly outside the SBC. There is a dramatic revolution going on that is on the scale of the Reformation of 500 years ago.
At that time our Baptist forbears were in the forefront of the Reformation. Today, the SBC is at the forefront of resisting the current reformation using most of the arguments that the RCC did then.
I am an SBC pastor and my brother is an IMB missionary. I can't reveal his name becaue of where he is. And I can't reveal my name because that would reveal him.
He is on state-side leave now, but is really struggling about going back. He has a very strong call to missions and a paraticular people group. He has been working with that people group for years, since he was a journeyman.
He knows he is called to work with this group, but just can't stand the envornment in which he works. He actually feels that the supervisors in that area make his and other missionaries work nearly impossible. There is little support and mostly cricism.
I don't know what he will do, but there certainly are problems on the field as far as where he serve.
I don't know that I'm considered a young pastor anymore. I'm in my early 40s. But I can tell you that most of the people in my church my age and younger have given up on the SBC. I'm talking about the people in the pew and those who are serving.
I have been Southern Baptist all of my life, but I will not be told we have to do what Nashville tells us to do.
Life is way too short. We will do God's work with or without the SBC.
By the way, I am a fourth generation pastor. All SBC as well as educated at an SBC university and seminary.
And anonymous above, we had better start listening to you, your brother and the author of the email in this post, they of anyone should know what they are talking about. This greatly concerns me.
I also wonder if it's just church membership rolls that have been inflating the numbers or are our missionary numbers inflated as well. It seems that all is not well in the mission field. I hope I am wrong.
Way to support the IMB! Call them liars and accuse them of inflating numbers. That is the way to "reform" the SBC. I would like to hear Wade weigh in on these accusations. He at least has set foot on the IMB's campus as a trustee. Surely he would defend the administrators of the greatest missions sending agency in the world against these baseless and ridiculous accusations. If a stat report from the IMB was not enough for some of you to believe (because from your computer desks you know better than those laboring in Richmond) I would imagine a word of support for the validity of the numbers previously published by Dr. York from Wade would quench this fire.
Michael
anon,
When has Nashville ever told anyone what to do. Baptist never let anyone tell them what to do. Nashville never tells a church what to do.
Could it be that your brothers situation is simply a "working" situation and not a SBC issue?
We are not and have never been a denomination. No one tells any church what to do.
Anonymous Pastor with M Brother,
There were no stats in your email so you were clearly lying. (wink)
also
I have a feeling no matter what evidence is present many are going to see what they want to see.
Isn't that called "eisegesis"?
also
Re: Last Days
Didn't Peter say the "last days" began circa Acts 2?
While no one may tell any church "what to do," they clearly influence those who wish to minister within the SBC by approving or not approving various projects and people for various projects. And how do they do so? By who tows the "company" line.
Anybody who doesn't see this has their head firmly planted in the sand.
Let me say this however, the SBC is no different in this respect from any other denomination. (yeah, yeah, yeah, try to convince yourselves we are not a denomination all you want, if it walks like a duck...).
Not only are younger M's leaving the missions field (anectdotal) but younger people are leaving denoms in droves as well. For all these reasons we have discussed.
People are sick of the kind of political bs they see here and elsewhere in the name of religion.
While we are holding meetings about our Committee on Committees young people just go buy food and feed hungry people. While we scream and holler about whether someone should be dunked or sprinkled, young people just go tell people about Jesus.
The Committee on Committees can indeed leverage a great deal of time and money that eventually outpaces the shotgun efforts of those disenfranchised young people. Whether someone should be dunked or sprinkled is fairly important.
But when we argue about this stuff to the extent that we call each others liars and lunatics (myself guilty as charged) we are running off the next generation of baptists, methodists, lutherans, and christians.
David,
I have been in the SBC all my life and my parents all of theirs. No one has ever stopped me or them from anything ministry wise. I am not sure where the connection comes in.
Is it not the local churches that have the issue?
David,
You asked... "Didn't Peter say the "last days" began circa Acts 2?"
Yes, and I believe we are in the "Last Days". However, my point was that this fact should encourage us to do more, not less as we look for the glorious appearance of great God and Saviour.
Also you wrote..."People are sick of the kind of political bs they see here and elsewhere in the name of religion."
I was wondering... does the the "bs" in the sentence you wrote stand for "Back Slid" or something else? Surely a man with your education can find words in the English language to articulate his opinion without cussing.
I have been in the SBC all my life and my parents all of theirs. No one has ever stopped me or them from anything ministry wise. I am not sure where the connection comes in.
Is it not the local churches that have the issue?
Mon May 05, 05:15:00 PM 2008
This is true and as soon as we stop sending money they will be forced to stop micromanaging missionaries and narrowing paremeters that most churches would be against anyway. No wonder they do it behind closed doors first. They can implement it before it becomes too widely known!
Joe,
It stands for "Barbara Streisand". :o)
Joe,
I think it was more descriptive than profane, but maybe that's because I agree with David Mc's post. :)
I read the Stop Baptist Predators website and other websites for victims of clergy sexual and other church abuse. The reason why is because I was taken advantage of sexually by a Southern Baptist minister when I was in my early 20's.
I left the denomination for awhile, but came back and am now happily in a new church that is pastored by a former missionary.
The reason why I bring all this up is because I see a common thread between clergy sexual abuse, other kinds of abuse committed in the name of Christ, and the problem written about on this post. The problem is people misusing their position of authority, and others being unable or unwilling to see this.
ezekiel,
I do not mean to ignore your question posted this morning. I have been out of the office all day.
Perhaps you are correct in your assessment, I am not sure.
I do know that Jesus told the Samaritan woman that they that worship God must serve him in spirit and truth. (Worship and serve are interchangeable words in Greek.)
Too often the part about spirit is ignored and the part about truth is limited to doctrine rather than lifestyle.
God must get very frustrated with us for our picking and choosing of which of his pronouncements we will pay attention to.
I do not think he leaves us. We simply distance ourselves from him and his work. His work continues as it always has. He just has to find more willing instruments to use. We simply get passed over.
My conviction is that God is flowing through the world like a great river of grace and agape. Some people, churches and denominational structures get on board and flow with him. Others try to flow at odds with him, and others try to swim upstream against him.
God is not dependent on any of us to get his will done in the world. It is our job to discover what he is doing and get with the program. Otherwise we are on our own.
Jim Fitch
Elisabeth, I am sorry for what happen to you in the past. I do believe some abuse their power,however, there are some in power who have firm convictions that are different than yours, mine, and others. They are humble servants who are sincere in their beliefs. Please do not throw all in boat.
Jeff
"They are humble servants who are sincere in their beliefs. Please do not throw all in boat."
Why don't the ones who are humble and sincere rebuke the ones in sin publicly? Ever notice how that NEVER happens?
For some, "bs" stands for Big Show.
It's time to stop acting like "Christians", with all the right words, the right theological terms, and all the right doctrine, and also knowing and following all the right men who have said all the right things and have all that right doctrine...when instead we just need to be like Him. No one else.
Develop you own personal doctrine, it's part of being a Berean, you and the Holy Spirit. You don't have to label yourself Calvinist, Arminian, comp, nor egal. Nor anything else. Learn from the Holy Spirit. He points to Jesus. That's is who we are to follow. I want to have His label.
It's easy to talk about Him, it's so easy to demean others who don't use all the right theological words. When is the last time that we gave a cup of water in His name, or visited someone in prison in His name?
Or defended a beaten woman from her boyfriend, and then gave her the Gospel? Yeah, they were living in sin, so should she and her child have deserved the beating? Some would say she
deserved the beating. I thought not. It is easy to talk about Him. But it's hard to be like Him.
To me, there is a whole lot of "bs" going on. And it's with Christians who would rather be "right" rather than be righteous. And I think at least part of being "righteous" means spending my life for others. And not being so worried about proving myself right.
oc.
Louis,
You said, “I am sure from reading your email…”
What email? Do you mean ‘my comment’?
You said, “I am sure that you like Dr. Dilday…” yada, yada Is that supposed to make people believe I’m prejudices and cannot fathom what Dilday said? I’ve never met Dilday.
How many times have you listened to the clip? In writing down what was said, I played it over ten times
Louis, you have done has been done by the C/R from the very start. And that is ‘guilt by association’.
Your latest comment said, “I do think on that clip that he said they had some professors at SWBTS who were not comfortable with the term ‘inerrancy’.”
IF HE HAD SAID THAT, WOULD THAT MAKE HIM A LIAR OR AS YOU CALLED HIM “DISINGENUOUS”?
What you said he said was said by Moyers, and that is guilt by association.
Play the clip again, and we’ll see if you’re big enough man to apologize.
Michael,
Do you support and defend Jerry Rankin?
Phil in Norman.
It really does amaze me, all the folks with their heads in the sand. Just because the "numbers" don't show it, you think it must be a lie.
I remember Vietnam, the U.S. would report 1000 enemy killed and three Americans and the enemy would say it was a lie that 1000 Americans were killed and non-of theirs.
Since 1979 not only have many resigned, many more have quietly served under great pressure.
Do your homework, which region of the IMB got a new director a few years ago with ABSOLUTELY NO BACKGROUND IN MISSIONS OR CHURCHWORK. Not even a deacon in his church.
He was self employed, rich and connected.
When he arrived on the field, he called a regional meeting which cost tens of thousands of CP money just so he could tell them that he was in charge and that APPRENCES WERE ALL THAT MATTERS.
He said (and I quote) "you will be careful who you talk with, who you are seen with, even who you drink coffee with."
Some in that meeting are now serving the Lord in other mission serving agencies. Some churches dropped the amount of funding.
Don't have you head in the sand, do you own research.
Some live in jungle rivers on a MEDICAL BOATS, SOME IN REFUGEE CAMPS IN TENTS. NOT SBC ANYMORE, but doing what God says.
Just because you don't know the facts and someone you want to agree with writes a book, paper or statistics, does not change what is going on.
TRUTH, NOT RELIGION
wtreat
Joe W.,
Thanks for pointing out my vulgarity. BS stands for exactly what you think it stands for.
However, in doing so, you may have unwittingly (or wittingly) made my point for me.
It reminds me of my favorite Tony Campolo quote. I will edit it so as no to offend you:
"I have three things I'd like to say to you tonight. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don't give a s***. What's worse is that you're more upset with the fact that I said s*** than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night."
Nice one David,
I was at seminary when that happened. I thought it was one of the greatest quotes of all time!
However, the seminary press said that he said "d_mn"
Didn't matter to me, so many of the self rightous were in a twist about it.
I once helped write a song which said "you keep building your steeples in the sky, but there are people starving nearby"
and "send me five dollars and we'll pray for you, we take visa and mastercard to"
thanks, I need a good laugh
grace
wtreat
Totalitarianism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Totalitarianism is a concept used in political science that describes a state that regulates nearly every aspect of public and private sectors. Totalitarian regimes or movements maintain themselves in political power by means of secret police, propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, personality cults, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, single-party states, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror tactics.